King/Phil-Campy compatibility

[Gothard]

I would like to build a set of wheels using either Chris King, or Phil hubs.

Is there any way to make them compatible with Campy derailleurs? Specific cassettes, specific cassette bodies?

[obtuse]

I would like to build a set of wheels using either Chris King, or Phil hubs.

Is there any way to make them compatible with Campy derailleurs? Specific cassettes, specific cassette bodies?


chris king hubs build horrible rear wheels stay away. phil wood hubs are available with a campy compatible freehub body. they are heavy; overbuilt and will last forever.

obtuse

[ergott]

chris king hubs build horrible rear wheels stay away. phil wood hubs are available with a campy compatible freehub body. they are heavy; overbuilt and will last forever.

obtuse

Since when?

I use a Phil Wood hub with a Dura Ace cassette. If you end up with any shifting problems (mine is fine (shut up Jason E!)), use a Jtek http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

[ergott]

As far as the King hubs, I've had great results with them. I have riders on King wheels that have been using the for training wheels for several years and mileage in the 10's of thousands of miles. I've built them for road and cross applications using several different rims and spoke combinations. Their non drive side flange spacing is almost the same as Tune and White Industries. Their drive side flange is well spaced similar to White Insustries and Shimano hubs.

[11.4]

Second Ergott. Chris King hubs are extraordinarily durable, are completely rebuildable if you still manage to do anything to them, and build a very good wheel (including the rear). They have a fairly loud ratchet, compared to the almost silent freehubs on Mavic's. If you want more feedback on them, check www.roadbikereview.com and www.mtbreview.com. For some reason, some people get extraordinarily angry about Chris King. Is it the nice colors?

And check the web site on Phil Wood: Like Chris King, they only offer the Shimano cassette spline pattern and measurements. However, there are conversion kits and many people (like Ergott) just use Dura Ace cassettes with Campy without a problem.

[Gothard]

Thanks to PMs from Ergott, I am getting close to making sense of all that (and ordering a set of Phils). It is a shame that both Phil and Chris King do not invest the effort to make their products more easily available to Campy users.
That said, has anyone used the aftermarket Campy compatible cog set made by Wheels Manufacturing? a shame they only come up to 11-27.
It seems the spacing difference between Campy and Shimano is significant enough to cause trouble, yet some use Shimano with campy derailleurs, and seem to have no trouble. What gives??

Edit: Why the h*ll does ShimaNO not make a rear cog larger than 27??? I need the 29 in the Alps passes!

[christian]

Because Sheldon does it for them? Century Special and all that.

[obtuse]

As far as the King hubs, I've had great results with them. I have riders on King wheels that have been using the for training wheels for several years and mileage in the 10's of thousands of miles. I've built them for road and cross applications using several different rims and spoke combinations. Their non drive side flange spacing is almost the same as Tune and White Industries. Their drive side flange is well spaced similar to White Insustries and Shimano hubs.


maybe you have "great results" with them because you know how to build wheels even with garbage ingredients. "almost the same" as tune and white industries translates into a 16 spoked rear wheel when you look at the resulting spoke tension using a non-offset 32hole rim and a 32hole king hub.

obtuse

[11.4]

I've been told by both King and Phil that the freehub diameter is greater for Campy compared to Shimano. They can't manage a Campy freehub without a complete re-engineering of the entire hub, and they simply can't justify the cost. Even if the road market is more or less evenly split between Campy and Shimano, Shimano owns the MTB market which uses the same hubs. Notice that they haven't done any significant re-engineering even of their Shimano-compatible products in now, what, 10 years?

As for using cassette conversion kits or simply using a Shimano cassette with an otherwise-Campy group, the cassettes are closer to being compatible with 10-speed, and the newer Ergo or STI levers are designed to accommodate some flexibility in positioning (so they aren't so persnickety) which makes them work better with competitive cassettes as well. The cassettes are also just a lot better with all the machining they get these days. In short, if you had bad experiences with 8 or 9 speed, try it again. If you are very particular, you may notice a slight degradation in performance, but it really works pretty well.

[obtuse]

Since when?

I use a Phil Wood hub with a Dura Ace cassette. If you end up with any shifting problems (mine is fine (shut up Jason E!)), use a Jtek http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm


sorry. my phil hubs are running a d/a 9 cassette on an otherwise ten speed campy bike...and it works fine. i forgot.

obtuse

[Gothard]

It would seem that American classic has a cassette that (almost) fits my needs. 10 spped, Campy spaced, and a 28 largest cog. For 1 tooth, I could live with it:

http://www.amclassic.com/Cassettes.html

[bigbill]

I use the amclassic cassettes on my old shimano wheels with my Campy 10. They work well and the steel versions are very durable. I had thought that there was some issue with them fitting on king hubs and the resulting clearance on the flange side.

[11.4]

My understanding is that Shimano 8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes fit fine. I certainly have no problems with the 9 and 10 speed ones, both Dura Ace and Ultegra.

Certain third-party cassettes (mostly those without a spider) drop far enough through that they ride against the spokes, even if the various spacer rings are used. I think American Classic was one of the problems, although it may have been corrected since I ran into it.

If you have a problem with a cassette, there isn't much you can do about it except go to another brand of cassette.

[SoCalSteve]

chris king hubs build horrible rear wheels stay away. phil wood hubs are available with a campy compatible freehub body. they are heavy; overbuilt and will last forever.
obtuse

I respect the Jerk's opinion most all the time....

This time I think he is off base. I have 2 wheelsets with CK hubs and they are both really bomb proof. Never out of true, never broke a spoke, never needed servicing.

I have a wheelset built with Phil Woods hubs as well. The Jerk is right on with his take on the Phil's. Beautiful, overbuilt and very heavy!

Good luck with whatever you decide,

Steve

[Archibald]

I would like to build a set of wheels using either Chris King, or Phil hubs.

Is there any way to make them compatible with Campy derailleurs? Specific cassettes, specific cassette bodies?
Kings have a lot of drag inherent in the design and can be temperature sensitive. Phils are heavy but beautifully made. My biggest complaint is that their seals consist only of the bearing skirts so they require more maintenance than other designs if you ride in the wet or muddy-dusty conditions.

If you want Campagnolo compatibility, why not just use Campagnolo hubs?

[The Spider]

I'll second (or third) the 'just throw on a Shimano cassette. It will work fine.

Raced the Peg on Saturady...all Campy except a shimano cassette, worked a treat.

By the way...my CK rear hub on the commuter is bombproof...wind, hail and floods. The wheel is tough to, it's been jumped, dropped and skidded almost everyday (city traffic is tough!). I thought it was loud...then I got Hugi 240s and now Tune...now they are LOUD!

[ergott]

maybe you have "great results" with them because you know how to build wheels even with garbage ingredients. "almost the same" as tune and white industries translates into a 16 spoked rear wheel when you look at the resulting spoke tension using a non-offset 32hole rim and a 32hole king hub.

obtuse

Could you please clarify what you are coomparing above? These are measurements I made on actual samples.

Center to right

36.2 White Industries H1 Shimano
37.9 White Industries H1 Campy
38.4 Chris King
38.6 Tune Shimano
39.5 Tune Campy

Resulting tension difference when using an Open Pro rim with 32 spokes, 3 cross.

44% White Industries Campagnolo
46% Tune Campagnolo and Shimano
49% Phil Wood
50% Chris King, White Industries Shimano
54% Shimano 9 speed (7700)


As you can see, King slots in the middle of the above stated bunch. As long as tension is high enough to prevent the spokes from going slack, a wider flange spacing will yield a stiffer rear wheel when comparing the same spokes and rims. I threw in Dura Ace 9 speed hubs because they have what is considered to have one of the best flange geometries. The difference won't make or break a quality wheel build.

OT, but when swapping in an offset Aerohead rim the following are the resultant tensions:

58% Tune Campagnolo
61% White Industries Campagnolo
69% White Industries Shimano
63% Tune Shimano
65% Chris King
69% Phil Wood
75% Shimano 7700

Interesting, how the different hubs are affected by the switch. All percentages were calculated with Damon Rinard's spocalc.
http://damonrinard.com/spocalc.htm