Interesting Question: Ratio of Cost, Frame vs. Wheels

[SpokeValley]

This was on a facebook post and though it was an interesting thought:

"Is there a cost ratio of frame to wheels to get the best value per dollar? (With audiophiles, the rule of thumb was 60% of the total cost should be spent on the speakers, to get the best sound value per dollar)"

Thoughts?

[jlwdm]

The answer is no, and I disagree with your audiophile speaker example.

Jeff

[rnhood]

I think the audiophile rule of thumb is accurate, for past years. And if you are building a full or larger listening room, then its still pretty accurate as a general rule. For secondary or smaller rooms, maybe not so much these days.

With regards to the bike, I think it should be more like 80% in the frame, and the other 20% split up between the drive train and wheels. People make a big deal out of wheels, but I've yet to see someone think they lost a race because of the wheels. There is more fashion that function in wheels. But you do need a reliable set.

[beeatnik]

a $500 frame w/ $5000 wheels is better than a $5000 frame with $500 wheels

ie

better to ride a CAAD10 with Lightweights than a C60 with Ksyrium Elites

YMMV

[FlashUNC]

Spend whatever you want and your budget can handle so you're not eating cat food for a month.

And even then it might be worth doing.

[ColonelJLloyd]

a $500 frame w/ $5000 wheels is better than a $5000 frame with $500 wheels

+1

[MattTuck]

optimal ratio depends on whether you're trying to justify the purchase of new wheels or a new frame ;)

There are so many things that influence price, it is hard to come up with a general rule. If you do hill climb events, I could see you preferring ultra light frame, and not needing overly expensive wheels. If you do TTs or crits, then maybe as Beatnik noted, you'd prefer super aero wheels and be somewhat less selective about the frame.

[carpediemracing]

I spend the minimum on a frame. I'd be on a frame from a $1000 complete bike if I could, like an entry level Diamondback or Jamis or whatever. Heck, I'd probably race a Nashbar frame, $150 or whatever. Aluminum, with a good carbon fork. In fact I bought a Nashbar mtb frame to swap over all my parts from an old "traded it for a TT bike" mtb that's just a bit too short in length.

The reality is that a custom frame really works for me and so I've spent in the $750 range for each of my frames.

Wheels I'll spend some money on, my current "perceived value" is about $700-1000 for a pair of carbon race wheels. I have to buy used at that price to get what I want, and I'm okay with that.

[fa63]

I spend the minimum on a frame.

Same here. I also cheap out on the components (Ultegra or 105 instead of Dura Ace, basic aluminum cockpit instead of carbon, etc.), and try to ride nicer wheels and tires (nicer for me still being around $1K or less; can't imagine dropping $2K-3K on a wheelset). Here is an example of that approach:

https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8104/28858603983_1f92449291_b.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

This was on a facebook post and though it was an interesting thought:

"Is there a cost ratio of frame to wheels to get the best value per dollar? (With audiophiles, the rule of thumb was 60% of the total cost should be spent on the speakers, to get the best sound value per dollar)"

Thoughts?

Don't have any percentages but put most of your $ into the frame and fork..what lasts the longest..next into reliable and useful wheels. Then
pedals/handlebarshape/stemlength/saddles..where you touch the bike.

Pretty far down is group. $pick the lever that feels best in your hand. Mid range stuff works really well..Potenza, Ultegra, Veloce, Athena, 105, Chorus.

[sitzmark]

This was on a facebook post and though it was an interesting thought:

"Is there a cost ratio of frame to wheels to get the best value per dollar? (With audiophiles, the rule of thumb was 60% of the total cost should be spent on the speakers, to get the best sound value per dollar)"

Thoughts?

Yes. It is truly elusive tho. If you aren't riding around town at 30mph while putting out only 97 watts, then you've missed the magic formula and need to keep experimenting. It is one of cycling's holy grails and almost impossible to obtain. Once found, however, you instantly gain membership into the club and are given its secret handshake. :)

Seriously: the answer is no. The idea that there is a formula based on $$ is a figment of marketing/sales ... for bicycles and for audio equipment. Good value starts by matching the wheelset "build" to intended use and then whatever aesthetics you personally have for the complete bicycle.

If you build the bike for the bike police, make sure you follow whatever the prevailing guidelines are. If you build it for yourself ... build it for yourself.

[benb]

Both the $5000 frames and $5000 wheels are mostly snake oil from a performance standpoint.. consider most of the Pro Peloton is not riding stuff that rich and they seem to be fast.

I would argue if the frame doesn't fit no wheels can possibly make up for that though, so make sure you're on the right frame first.

If you buy a $500 frame and put $5000 wheels on it somehow I'm guessing you're likely to still have a bike that weighs well over 20lbs.

[nooneline]

I think the reason there's not the same kind of rule of thumb is because the frame and the wheels aren't dependent on each other the way that a stereo system and its speakers are.

Think about it. If you have crappy speakers and an amazing rest-of-the-audio system (not a sound nerd so I don't know the terms), it's going to sound crappy.

but if you have $500 midrange wheels, that are quite good, they're not any worse as 10% of the cost of a $5000 frame or as 50% of the cost of a $1000 frame. A fancier frame doesn't require nicer wheels to provide its benefits the way a nice audio system requires nicer speakers to provide its benefits.

[bostondrunk]

Same here. I also cheap out on the components (Ultegra or 105 instead of Dura Ace, basic aluminum cockpit instead of carbon, etc.), and try to ride nicer wheels and tires (nicer for me still being around $1K or less; can't imagine dropping $2K-3K on a wheelset). Here is an example of that approach:

https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8104/28858603983_1f92449291_b.jpg

Very nice bike. Question, and please don't take this the wrong way............those HED Jet 6's are awesome wheels. Why put slow tires on them? Go with a Continental GP4000SII instead (and latex tubes). Faster tire/tube combo with still very good durability.

[chiasticon]

I'd say 2k-ish is average for most of the framesets I've bought. max wheel price is about 1k, most were a good bit less. however, almost all of that is used stuff. those framesets were over 4k new and some of the wheels over 2500 new.

but generally, yeah, there's no "rule of thumb" other than not to buy a super expensive frame and total crap wheels, unless you're just saving the sweet wheels for race day.

[benb]

I'd say 2k-ish is average for most of the framesets I've bought. max wheel price is about 1k, most were a good bit less. however, almost all of that is used stuff. those framesets were over 4k new and some of the wheels over 2500 new.

but generally, yeah, there's no "rule of thumb" other than not to buy a super expensive frame and total crap wheels, unless you're just saving the sweet wheels for race day.

If you're only talking new there is a huge drop in price to performance ratio somewhere around $1500-2000 for the frame IMO. If you fit on a factory frame there are some incredibly good carbon frames in that price range that will outperform the $4000-5000 custom frames in every way except durability (if you're talking Custom Ti). But those Ti frames only have that value if they are made specifically for you and they get the geometry exactly right for you IMO.

Wheels AFAICT the price to performance starts falling off in a big way somewhere around $1000. The only gains above $1000 seem to be Aero and that's serious diminishing returns.

[fa63]

Very nice bike. Question, and please don't take this the wrong way............those HED Jet 6's are awesome wheels. Why put slow tires on them? Go with a Continental GP4000SII instead (and latex tubes). Faster tire/tube combo with still very good durability.

Fair question. According to Bicycle Rolling Resistance, these give up about 10W over a faster tire like the Continental GP4000SII, which I have tried but had issues with their durability. So this was a compromise to find something with decent rolling resistance and good durability. That said, I have been using a pair of Schwalbe One tires for the last couple months on my other bike, and really like them so far. I may actually switch tires between the two bikes.

[beeatnik]

Both the $5000 frames and $5000 wheels are mostly snake oil from a performance standpoint.. consider most of the Pro Peloton is not riding stuff that rich and they seem to be fast.

I would argue if the frame doesn't fit no wheels can possibly make up for that though, so make sure you're on the right frame first.

If you buy a $500 frame and put $5000 wheels on it somehow I'm guessing you're likely to still have a bike that weighs well over 20lbs.

13.5 poundz
https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5463/30729266442_d1d79bcf0a_b.jpg

Same cheap frame, other nice wheelz
https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5550/30544843940_8403b1a38f_b.jpg

https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5488/30544843660_98fc759743_b.jpg

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=67421&p=1095591#p1095591


http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=99457&start=1245

[benb]

Figured Cannondale would be the exception to what I said. In any case is that a Caad12 and can you actually get one for $500 new from a US Cannondale Dealer?

It looks like you can get one for ~$600 from overseas but I'm thinking that loses some value vs one from a local Cannonale dealer.

AFAICT there aren't that many aluminum frames left that can compete with that one at similar prices.

[carpediemracing]

Figured Cannondale would be the exception to what I said. In any case is that a Caad12 and can you actually get one for $500 new from a US Cannondale Dealer?

It looks like you can get one for ~$600 from overseas but I'm thinking that loses some value vs one from a local Cannonale dealer.

AFAICT there aren't that many aluminum frames left that can compete with that one at similar prices.

Keep in mind that even a heavy aluminum frame will be 1200g or so (mine). A really heavy one might be 1650g (my other one). My frame gives up, what, about 500g to a light carbon one, so 1-1.5 lbs (let's round aggressively). It won't make a huge difference in overall bike weight vs cost vs performance.

One racer showed up at one of my races with an early gen Raleigh frame that he'd built into a raceable 13 or 14 or so pound bike. Not aero wheels. He was out $2500 on the bike. He traded time for cost/weight. It took him a couple years to get the parts together.

It inspired me to look at the Raleigh frames and eventually to put together this post using Raleigh frames as an example:

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2009/12/racing-team-bike.html

[ripvanrando]

"Is there a cost ratio of frame to wheels to get the best value per dollar? (With audiophiles, the rule of thumb was 60% of the total cost should be spent on the speakers, to get the best sound value per dollar)"

Thoughts?

We all value different things and have different evaluation criteria. Many of us have no practical limits on what we could spend on bike toys; however, I myself won't spend more than necessary to achieve my objectives. I look at it as what is the minimum I need to spend. I order my bike buying junk according to the following priorities.

1. Comfort
2 Reliability
3. Aerodynamics
4. Weight
5. Cost

Where to spend money and how much? The posited question is so simplistic as to not warrant serious response. I'll try. What else to do a 3 am. 69% is my answer. Who actually calculates the cost ratio of wheels to frame. I have to chuckle seeing Gatorskins on $2k wheels.

What is the minimum one needs to spend to buy a new set of fast wheels? $1450 is my number.

Wheels: $1150 for 60 mm carbon with xray spokes (clincher)

Tires: $90

Latex Tubes: $20

Cassette: $190

I bought a used 14 year old AK-61 frame on PL for $1000. I bought a new S3 somewhat recently for $2200. The Pinarello climbs better but the Cervelo is faster on the flats with both using the optimized carbon wheel set. Unbelievable climber that bike. I don't ride the Cervelo much anymore even though it cost much more. I almost always take the old, used, cheaper bike out unless it is a really long ride. If I were doing a long TT, it would be the 161% ratio setup because it sits halfway between my climbing rig and my randonneuring pig.

My Pinarello to wheels ratio is 69%. Totally optimized. I have to go with that answer. The bike hits all five of my criteria for almost all rides where I live.

Now on to my randonneuring bike(s), the numbers work differently. The math works out to 322% frame to wheels cost on my custom, totally optimized for the mission Rando rig. The frame is custom and comfortable. The wheels are not carbon and are durable and reliable and not so expensive although the tires and cassette aren't cheap. The ratio of bike to frame is optimized. Onto my other randonneuring bike, the math gets complicated because the frame cost me nothing. I bought a beautiful old steel bike and sold the parts for what the bike cost. A set of 650B wheels cost me $900 to build. My 3 dollar Casio won't calculate zero divided by 900.

69 percent is my number.

[shovelhd]

I think the availability of generic Chinese parts alters the basic equation. I ride a $2k frame with $500 generic wheels that are a good match. If the wheels were name brand, they'd be $2k. You could make the same argument with open mold frames. Comparing apples to apples, I think the ratio that works for me is 1:1.

[ColonelJLloyd]

A set of 650B wheels cost me $900 to build.

Care to share the deets?

[sandyrs]

If you buy a $500 frame and put $5000 wheels on it somehow I'm guessing you're likely to still have a bike that weighs well over 20lbs.

...

Figured Cannondale would be the exception to what I said.

Not really. A number of big brands make a decent aluminum frames these days.

Trek
Specialized
Scott
Canyon
Cannondale
BMC
Colnago

the list goes on.

The difference between one of these frames (circa 1400g at the absolute most these days) and the lightest frames in the world (circa 600g) is only about two pounds.

Unless you're buying a complete bike with trash parts and literally only replacing the wheels (which is not what anyone here is talking about), there's no way two pounds of frame somehow turns into 8 or 9 pounds of bike. Maybe you go from 13 to 16 pounds (or in beeatnik's case, 11 to 13 :)) but 20 pounds is a total exaggeration. I think a less flashy way of saying what beeatnik's quote (which is something Craig Gaulzetti said a while ago) is trying to get at is that, all else including fit being equal, there is more to gain from nice wheels than there is from a nice frame, and I agree with that (at least as it pertains to road bikes).

[oldpotatoe]

Care to share the deets?

Ya didn't ask me but a set of 650b wheels for ($450 or so) to $900 pretty easy.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Ya didn't ask me but a set of 650b wheels for ($450 or so) to $900 pretty easy.

I'm familiar with wheel components and prices. Asking about his specific choices.

[choke]

a $500 frame w/ $5000 wheels is better than a $5000 frame with $500 wheelsIn my world $500 wheels are super nice and at the high end of what I think wheels are worth; $5k wheels are insane.

But I only use Al rims and I don't like anything that's taller than an Open4CD. :D