Steel frame fit. 130mm stem ok?

[TronnyJenkins]

I'm still determining what size frame I like to ride and I'm sure it will just come down to me setting up my most recent purchase with the proper stem for reach and riding it, but does this sound within reason?

54cm frame, 130mm stem, 100mm seat post showing (not counting the top tapered part). Drop is 2-3cm or the same as my carbon crit/rr bike with the stem at an acceptable insertion.

Just wondering what handling will be like. I would tend to think it would be quicker to throw the bike around and sprint. Lighter. Etc. But I've been wrong before, and I know older school steel guys may make fun of me hehe :o

I know this is a replica frame for some movie, but this doesn't look stupid IMO.
https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/11/Motorola-Merckx-1994-.jpg

[sandyrs]

Certainly sounds within reason to me!

[ultraman6970]

I will assume the bike we are talking about is not the one in the picture and you have a 54 cm frame that you have fit right and you just want to go with a 13 cm stem? right?

That being said... I would not put a 13 stem unless you are like 6 feet 2 inches and the 54 is way too small. What happens is this, the handling will be quicker but if you go too long in the stem you will be too stretched and relaxed over the bike. If you are racing in this thing i would not advice you to put a 13 cm stem at all.

I will assume you are like 5 feet 10 inches tall.. as much a 12 stem will do... 11 or 11.5 is ok too... 13 cm stem I wouldn't do it, is way too long even if you have orangutan arms you know.

[Steelman]

My Basso's have 53cm seat, 54cm top with a 12cm stem.

Have had bikes with longer top tubes and 11cm stems, but am happier with this combo.

[nesteel]

All goes toward what you like. I prefer to stretch out a bit, and run 130 and 140 stems on my bikes. Just over 6', riding a 60 or 61cm frame.

[hollowgram5]

I'm about the same as nesteel. I'm 6'4" tall, and every single bike I own with drop bars has a 130 stem; it's the fit and ride that I prefer.. anything shorter and I feel cramped..

So quick math: that's 2 quills, 1 quill adapted Threadless, and 5 frames with Threadless headsets. One of them has 13cm drop from saddle to bars, which is about as far as I let it go, everything else is less..

I know my fit pretty well after this many years.. but when I start adding it up it sounds like I have the beginnings of a problem..

[regularguy412]

IMO-- The main thing to be aware of is being too hung out over the front wheel. Consider heavy braking on a relatively steep downhill; you're coming to a stop and hit a divot or small bump in the road.

Clip-on aero bars in this setup: same caveat.

You get the picture.

Otherwise, do what is most comfortable.

Mike in AR:beer:

[choke]

It sounds fine to me. I'm 5'8", normally ride a 54 top tube and my go to stem length is 120. In the past I've used a 130 and even a 135.

[wallymann]

i run up to 140mm, pros have ridden up to 150mm...thats why they make 'em!!!

http://brown-snout.com/cycling/bikes/gazelle_aa-special/walter_gazelle_aa-special_v2.jpg
http://majortaylorcycling.org/bikes/walter_bottecchia_team-spago.jpg

[TronnyJenkins]

I should have added info on my current bikes but I didn't want to clutter my original post. My carbon bike is a 56 with 100mm threadless. Two other steel bikes have 56cm TT, one with a 100mm quill, the other with a 110mm. Both are approximately the same comfort level.

This won't be a racer, it's an '89 Bianchi SLX. Currently has 110mm quill and 39.5cm bars. Thinking of the 130mm quill and 42 or 44 bars. Just to change it up and see how it handles comparatively.

I'm 5'11 and average build.

[TronnyJenkins]

i run up to 140mm, pros have ridden up to 150mm...thats why they make 'em!!!



Nice nice ride! Love the wheel set.

[wallymann]

Just to change it up and see how it handles comparatively.

lots of variables to consider, but with all other factors kept constant a longer stem tends to calm down steering sensitivity slightly.

[fuzzalow]

How your bike might handle with using a possible 130mm stem depends less on how long the stem is and more based on how you ride it. It is not about the bike, it is about your fit & position on the bike.

If you ride with your arms holding you up & pressing weight into the bars: it'll ride a twitchy mess because you'll use core to hold & steer the bike straight which makes the bars react to your every bodily twitch

If you ride with a light touch on the bars because you balance correctly into the bike: it'll ride smooth and track straight because you are not interfering with the bike's inherent steering geometry stability. The front end tracks straight because you are allowing the bike to run.

As example my custom Bruce Gordon with 54cm seattube and a 140mm stem.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8quS-R2wjuAhytjUTPX74fDEUJ3KC_JSxdeHlR7VxPuDxoglLCNwQdH 74V7gc-lrAYfv8TmiJWUwh9uVwIZO3cHynjfOZt9WlkciwrnIJRlE6LqF BXgpr79VnEfTTqBoepzI5kNalCb7SyNI6pZva_XWB2-eP9eDEn5iVfB5GHjy3gaag-1GQsu_uTP4v5HJOa9ff1-Wwi1aZunRwDvfwO-kvRwS6bLKCzeg6f_sQ9gDa0mbw0MZLDGdlq52pRhzeJcJlBzrK jx5O4-10XoxbizKWPddfSLQwBaNofDVLjqiw-BRnAXFpvSleb-U69WrJtrGMpcyExBp1p660VQjqc4wzLE4dhmZvoqUZAFMAxjOV dOzHZts0E1NYBWJJqR_DH6e7LP1yz9pNicMm2P93NWSMGbf0e5 UCbpk58TGJLxLqoTcgiLY7RFp1_7m8PuhHP90oHkiM-DPe7YGflELg-J3mjJCMl9LdElkhc8jwsik-phpcb3cz1S4An2hOjtpnaGxjaF-EElwYy2EqhOy0Doj_AI5JGnJM81yo7NOPFJQcNotFJ2yRUVo_A YZFlrxFK9gif8QBAVDhwIwi8ozwFQWY8ypYa9Q_oX5qjAcpmQV gdmn=w1074-h716-no

[ultraman6970]

5'11 normal built? honestly? IMO 13 will be way too long... 12 as much but 13 is too much. Telling you because I did that when I was racing back in the day, not good idea... if you want to try it is your choice. Also Think that many of the guys that are telling that it might be ok are 6.1 and taller :)

13 cm for a guy over 6 feet is like the way to go, is not rare at all but for average joe size guys is not like a good idea.

Have fun :D

[PaMtbRider]

In very general terms a 130 stem on a 54cm top tube bike is too long.

[fignon's barber]

How your bike might handle with using a possible 130mm stem depends less on how long the stem is and more based on how you ride it. It is not about the bike, it is about your fit & position on the bike.




This. Plus the quill stem will be more flexy than a modern threadless stem.

[oldpotatoe]

This. Plus the quill stem will be more flexy than a modern threadless stem.

I agree, bike fit is key, how it 'handles' to you is subjective. BUT a quill stem design isn't automatically more flexy than a threadless stem. Plenty of threadless 130mm stems that are 'flexy' and plenty of quill stems that aren't.

[bikinchris]

In very general terms a 130 stem on a 54cm top tube bike is too long.

Agreed. A 130 stem would be more proportional on a 57 top tube. None of the seat tube sizes mentioned here have the slightest thing to do with stem length. Getting your weight between the wheels affects handling and bike safety.
Some of the bikes pictured here have the riders weight over the front wheel.

[Tandem Rider]

Fuzzy is correct, My old quill stemed era bikes were all set up like his Gordon. 140ish slammed stem, seat slammed all the way back and up high. I have long arms, long femurs, and a short torso. It's all about the fit and your weight distribution on the bike's pedals, bars and seat.

[phcollard]

In very general terms a 130 stem on a 54cm top tube bike is too long.

I would say so as well.

There is worse though. 170mm anyone? :D

http://road.cc/sites/default/files/cropped/node-gallery-display/images/Tour%20Tech%202013%20-%20Quirky%20stuff/Astana%20-Enrico%20Gasparotto's%20170mm%20stem2.jpg

[soulspinner]

How your bike might handle with using a possible 130mm stem depends less on how long the stem is and more based on how you ride it. It is not about the bike, it is about your fit & position on the bike.

If you ride with your arms holding you up & pressing weight into the bars: it'll ride a twitchy mess because you'll use core to hold & steer the bike straight which makes the bars react to your every bodily twitch

If you ride with a light touch on the bars because you balance correctly into the bike: it'll ride smooth and track straight because you are not interfering with the bike's inherent steering geometry stability. The front end tracks straight because you are allowing the bike to run.

As example my custom Bruce Gordon with 54cm seattube and a 140mm stem.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8quS-R2wjuAhytjUTPX74fDEUJ3KC_JSxdeHlR7VxPuDxoglLCNwQdH 74V7gc-lrAYfv8TmiJWUwh9uVwIZO3cHynjfOZt9WlkciwrnIJRlE6LqF BXgpr79VnEfTTqBoepzI5kNalCb7SyNI6pZva_XWB2-eP9eDEn5iVfB5GHjy3gaag-1GQsu_uTP4v5HJOa9ff1-Wwi1aZunRwDvfwO-kvRwS6bLKCzeg6f_sQ9gDa0mbw0MZLDGdlq52pRhzeJcJlBzrK jx5O4-10XoxbizKWPddfSLQwBaNofDVLjqiw-BRnAXFpvSleb-U69WrJtrGMpcyExBp1p660VQjqc4wzLE4dhmZvoqUZAFMAxjOV dOzHZts0E1NYBWJJqR_DH6e7LP1yz9pNicMm2P93NWSMGbf0e5 UCbpk58TGJLxLqoTcgiLY7RFp1_7m8PuhHP90oHkiM-DPe7YGflELg-J3mjJCMl9LdElkhc8jwsik-phpcb3cz1S4An2hOjtpnaGxjaF-EElwYy2EqhOy0Doj_AI5JGnJM81yo7NOPFJQcNotFJ2yRUVo_A YZFlrxFK9gif8QBAVDhwIwi8ozwFQWY8ypYa9Q_oX5qjAcpmQV gdmn=w1074-h716-no

Dig that orange B.G.!

[TronnyJenkins]

I actually ride with the nose of my saddles 2cm back from the line up from crank center. So with these taken into account I guess it might make weight distribution weird. That's how my 56 was set up when I bought it and was fitted on Retul and I'm so used to that forward position that anything else feels strange.

[Fivethumbs]

Fignon was 5'9" tall and his 89 Tour bike sported a 140 stem. (Interestingly he also only ran a 6 speed cog set).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carpediemracing]

54cm frame, 130mm stem, 100mm seat post showing (not counting the top tapered part). Drop is 2-3cm or the same as my carbon crit/rr bike with the stem at an acceptable insertion.

Just wondering what handling will be like. I would tend to think it would be quicker to throw the bike around and sprint. Lighter. Etc. But I've been wrong before, and I know older school steel guys may make fun of me hehe :o

Longer stem slows down steering a bit so at higher speeds it'll be a bit more stable. For example if you're in a tuck at 50 mph a longer (say 130mm) stem is a bit more stable than a shorter stem like a 90mm.

At sidewalk speeds a long stem is a little more awkward than a shorter one. Making u-turns on a sidewalk is much easier with a short stem than a long one.

I'll commit and say that at about 20-22 mph the longer stem comes into play.

For many years I used a 130-145mm stem on a 50 cm frame (53.5 TT). My now-wife rides a similar size bike and I've experimented with stem sizes on her bike, using the 90mm that fits her and random 130-140mm stems off my bikes.

In 2010 I got a 56.5 TT frame designed around a 120mm stem (regular bars). With compact bars I'm back to a 135mm stem to get the drops back into the same spot as before.

[djg21]

I hated the flex when I used those old Cinelli quill stems in long lengths (> 120mm). At the time, the Cinelli-type quill stems were the only option. When Salsa came to market with the CroMoto MTB-style quill stem, it made all the difference. Maybe try to find one on EBay.

[wallymann]

Fignon was 5'9" tall and his 89 Tour bike sported a 140 stem. (Interestingly he also only ran a 6 speed cog set).


larry on a bike: pure class!

RIP mr. fignon...thanks for the memories.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6b/ff/49/6bff49bbf9c0805c17b6bbf04eb2fdb6.jpg
https://bicyclebookreview.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/fignon-in-systeme-u-kit.jpg
http://www.dw.com/image/16894110_303.jpg

[TronnyJenkins]

Longer stem slows down steering a bit so at higher speeds it'll be a bit more stable. For example if you're in a tuck at 50 mph a longer (say 130mm) stem is a bit more stable than a shorter stem like a 90mm.

Then I'll be super stable... I only ride fast! Lol.

[Mark McM]

How does the handlebar reach figure into the equation? The consensus here seems to be that a 13cm stem may be a bit too long, but isn't a 13cm stem with a 7cm reach handlebar the same as a 11cm stem with a 9cm reach handlebar?

I'm facing a similar dilemma, now that "compact" handlebars are becoming more of the norm. I typically use a 12cm stem with handlebars with a "traditional" reach of 9cm - 10cm. But most handlebars these days seem to have a reach of about 7cm - 8cm reach, which would require a 14cm stem for the same cockpit length.

[sandyrs]

How does the handlebar reach figure into the equation? The consensus here seems to be that a 13cm stem may be a bit too long, but isn't a 13cm stem with a 7cm reach handlebar the same as a 11cm stem with a 9cm reach handlebar?

I'm facing a similar dilemma, now that "compact" handlebars are becoming more of the norm. I typically use a 12cm stem with handlebars with a "traditional" reach of 9cm - 10cm. But most handlebars these days seem to have a reach of about 7cm - 8cm reach, which would require a 14cm stem for the same cockpit length.

I think this in part relates to how frequently one rides in the drops vs on the hoods vs on the bar tops. Going from traditional to compact bars, you have to prioritize one position, because the different shape of the bars means that one can't retain the exact same reach to all three parts of the bar. To retain the same reach to the hoods, yes, a longer stem would be in order. To retain the same reach to the drops, a lower angle stem is probably necessary. Etc.

[benb]

Whatever works.. this idea that the longer stem slows the steering is somewhat hard to take. You move the bars further with the longer stem but the longer stem gives you more leverage so you're going to turn the bars faster with the same physical effort.

Bar width & reach comes into play too. And you'd have to practically buy a bunch of custom frames and control for certain dimensions and angles to even actually do a valid test of a long stem vs a short stem.

Interesting that some of pictures of Fignon, etc.. show the super long stem but his elbows are still overlapping his knees, he doesn't have a super long reach, it's just a pretty small frame for him.

Compare that with Lemond.. a lot of the pictures of him in the drops show his elbows pretty far forward of his knees..

[mellowandre]

I think a 130 is fine! If it fits.. it fits!

[carpediemracing]

How does the handlebar reach figure into the equation? The consensus here seems to be that a 13cm stem may be a bit too long, but isn't a 13cm stem with a 7cm reach handlebar the same as a 11cm stem with a 9cm reach handlebar?

I'm facing a similar dilemma, now that "compact" handlebars are becoming more of the norm. I typically use a 12cm stem with handlebars with a "traditional" reach of 9cm - 10cm. But most handlebars these days seem to have a reach of about 7cm - 8cm reach, which would require a 14cm stem for the same cockpit length.

Exactly what happened to me. I didn't realize how significant the relationship was between the drops and the cranks/BB/pedals for me, especially when sprinting. Thinking back on it, of course it is, because I'm no longer sitting on the saddle so the saddle position doesn't matter at all.

My frames were set up for 12 cm stems with regular bars. I had to do +3 cm reach, -3 cm drop, based on the delta between the regular bars and compact bars. Net I decided on +2.5 cm reach and -3 cm drop.

Virtually identical hand placement in the drops, which was my priority. Everything else works fine so it's all good.

[carpediemracing]

I actually ride with the nose of my saddles 2cm back from the line up from crank center. So with these taken into account I guess it might make weight distribution weird. That's how my 56 was set up when I bought it and was fitted on Retul and I'm so used to that forward position that anything else feels strange.

When I got Guru fitted the fitter was a bit surprised to find that I had 4 mm of set back. Well, not surprised, as he's seen me race for well on 25 years, but he didn't realize how far forward my saddle sat on my bike.

The biggest effect the forward position has had, when combined with the extra forward position (75.5 deg STA, 56.5 top tube length) is that there's no weight on the rear wheel. With a standard/conservative 40.5 cm chainstay even coasting in turns I'd get rear wheel chatter.

I had a second frame built with 39 cm chainstays. Bang on, zero problems with cornering. Bonus: it's a zillion times more responsive out of the saddle because I can put the front wheel anywhere I want. The bit I really like is that I can lift the front wheel at will at any time in an all out sprint.

It was so good I sent my first frame back to get shortened. He could only get it to 39.3 cm. It's actually not quite the same, believe it or not. With this frame I can't do a wheelie at will in a sprint, something I noticed right away. Other than that I can't tell the difference, and in fact it was only a long time after I built up the bike that I measured the stays and found it was just a touch longer. Same wheels/tires/cassette/cranks/chainrings.

[benb]

Why do you want to do a wheelie in a sprint? That limits your acceleration and steering.

[carpediemracing]

Why do you want to do a wheelie in a sprint? That limits your acceleration and steering.

I should clarify, wheelie means maybe a few mm of lift, maybe a cm tops. So it's more unweighting the front rather than lifting the front wheel a la Sagan.

I'm pretty sure it's not noticeable even if you're on my wheel during the sprint. It's just a thing that I like being able to do.

With virtually zero weight on the front wheel it doesn't affect steering. It's more like touching down at the edges of each bike-rocking motions, like touching as the front wheel changes direction.

I think this is the only clip where I experienced that in a race. It has to be a super hard jump from a lower speed, and I have to be pretty fresh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1pfeD-KLGw

This is inspiring me to move the stem, compact bars, and new shaped levers from the red bike to the black bike (I only have one set of the compact bar cockpit). I raced the black bike once in 2016 and did the whole "front wheel lift thing" which I'd forgotten about since whenever in 2012 I stopped racing the black bike.

[TDot]

Hey Wallyman, what bars are you using on your bikes? I see they are the same bars ... and they look sweet! i run up to 140mm, pros have ridden up to 150mm...thats why they make 'em!!!

http://brown-snout.com/cycling/bikes/gazelle_aa-special/walter_gazelle_aa-special_v2.jpg
http://majortaylorcycling.org/bikes/walter_bottecchia_team-spago.jpg

[wallymann]

Hey Wallyman, what bars are you using on your bikes? I see they are the same bars ... and they look sweet!

retro 3ttt bars. same bars on all my bikes! i have a stockpile of them.

the distinctive "look" you're noticing subconsciously is probably the shortened drops -- i cut ~3cm off the ends of all my drop-bars. i never use the very end, so i chop that off for a racier look and it saves a good 20g/side at least! ;-)

[merckx]

Wally, it appears that your stems are long because your setback is short. What is your setback?

[cadence90]

wallymann, all your bicycles look so dialed in. :beer:

Can you post again that "overlay" gif you made of some your bicycles? That thing is great.

TIA!

[fiataccompli]

Once I finally got a professional fit (why did i wait so long??), I found that I needed shorter stem/reach than I had previously set bikes up with. These days, I use the X/Y coordinates of key body contact points (saddle at a prescribed width, bar top, hood tops, drops) relative to the axis of the BB to replicate the fit on any bike I am setting up.

If I've found any generality for my own fit, it's about 100mm of stem for a 54/55ish top tube. That said, the objective X/Y measurements select the stem and seat setback (or post) for me and in theory the overAll frame dimensions will relate to how small/flingy the bike may feel...guess I tend to gravitate towards the neutral and have found myself rejecting frames where the stem is <90mm and usually if it's >110mm I also have bar height issues anyway. Physiology & preference I suppose .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wallymann]

Wally, it appears that your stems are long because your setback is short. What is your setback?

stems are long because they're on the long end, well 130mm and up depending on TT and STA.

setback is 9cm, drop is 11cm, reach is ~59.5cm.

Can you post again that "overlay" gif you made of some your bicycles? That thing is great.

http://brown-snout.com/cycling/tech/postion-consistency.gif