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saab2000
07-19-2006, 05:54 PM
With all respect, why does everyone go apepoop whenever there is a Nagasawa posted? What don't I know?

The bikes posted are obviously examples of perfect lugged frames. But there are a lot of perfect lugged frames made by lots of builders.

I know this will bother some people, but I simply don't know. Does he have a huge history of building successful racing frames?

Some frames are greeted with huge cheers and others, which to my eyes, seem to be of the same level of quality and care and attention to detail, are greeted with yawns. Nagasawas are greeted with cheers.

Again, no disrespect whatsoever. But what have I not been told about these Nagasawa frames? Just trying to educate myself here.

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 06:06 PM
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=14109&highlight=nagasawa+pimp

Grant McLean
07-19-2006, 06:15 PM
For me it's the history.

Like when I see a nice Ferrari, my heart beats faster.

My brain still knows that a corvette has more horsepower,
but I just couldn't care less.

It's about enjoying the whole experience of what the "real deal" is.

from Nagasawa catalog:

"Koichi Nakano of Japan is considered the best track sprinter of modern times.
He won ten consecutive Professional Sprint World Championships from 1977 to 1986,
and is the all-time winningest cyclist on Japan Professional Keirin circuit."

g

taz-t
07-19-2006, 06:25 PM
With all respect, why does everyone go apepoop whenever there is a Nagasawa posted? What don't I know?

The bikes posted are obviously examples of perfect lugged frames. But there are a lot of perfect lugged frames made by lots of builders.

I know this will bother some people, but I simply don't know. Does he have a huge history of building successful racing frames?

Some frames are greeted with huge cheers and others, which to my eyes, seem to be of the same level of quality and care and attention to detail, are greeted with yawns. Nagasawas are greeted with cheers.

Again, no disrespect whatsoever. But what have I not been told about these Nagasawa frames? Just trying to educate myself here.

Saab - start here:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Japan/Nagasawa/b-guide_87_text.htm

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 06:33 PM
wow...what a great article.

Grant McLean
07-19-2006, 06:43 PM
wow...what a great article.

The article briefly mentions he apprenticed at DeRosa,
but i've read he had quite an impact there.
Raised the bar.

g

saab2000
07-19-2006, 06:52 PM
Saab - start here:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Japan/Nagasawa/b-guide_87_text.htm

Good article. Now I know.

atmo
07-19-2006, 07:03 PM
yo - http://richardsachs.blogspot.com/2006/01/snipped-i-remember-noticing-file-marks.html
and yo - http://richardsachs.blogspot.com/2006/01/i-first-saw-nagasawa-frames-in.html atmo.

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 07:21 PM
I don't think "frame builder" fits in with the living treasure system, sadly. But his is clearly "holder of important intangibal cultural property"
Process marks (art marks) (the hand of the artist) are cool. Pottery is all about that stuff.

Ginger
07-19-2006, 07:21 PM
So, in essence Mr. Nagasawa has out italian-ed the italians in a very Japanese- tea-ceremony kindof way?

I agree with Shino, the marks of the hands of the maker and all that. Why obtain a piece of art if there is no sign that it is art from the hands of a master?

atmo
07-19-2006, 07:23 PM
I don't think "frame builder" fits in with the living treasure system, sadly. But his is clearly "holder of important intangibal culteral property"
Process marks (art marks) (the hand of the artist) are cool. Pottery is all about that stuff.
he fits in with my living treasure system atmo.






ps - my lil' boychick:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/album?.dir=5ec9&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/my_photos

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 07:30 PM
Oops I misspelled cultural...rats. Well, the only problem is that there is no tadition in Japan of making Italian styled frames. It's a new thing. The Government wanted to preserve dying arts that industrialization were killing. His bikes clearly are such an art.

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 07:32 PM
there is no bicycle category, but maybe you could start one in this country.


http://www.nihon-kogeikai.com/KOKUHO-E.html

39cross
07-19-2006, 07:32 PM
snippetps - my lil' boychick:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/album?.dir=5ec9&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/my_photos
frickin' awesome.

dbrk
07-19-2006, 08:58 PM
'Cause you can never have enough of these bikes...

dbrk

Grant McLean
07-19-2006, 09:07 PM
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NAGASAWA.HTML


http://www.yellowjersey.org/WHTNAGA1.JPG




g

goonster
07-19-2006, 09:16 PM
With all respect, why does everyone go apepoop whenever there is a Nagasawa posted? What don't I know?


I didn't really get it either, until I saw some in person, at Elliott Bay Cycles in Seattle, years ago.

There are lugged frames, and then there are lugged frames, but Nagasawas really are something very special.

atmo
07-19-2006, 09:25 PM
I didn't really get it either, until I saw some in person, at Elliott Bay Cycles in Seattle, years ago.

There are lugged frames, and then there are lugged frames, but Nagasawas really are something very special.

yeah - it is extremely limiting to view these as lugged frames.
they are that way because it is the method he was borne into.
unlike so many other industry types that switch materials and/or
joining processes due to market pressures, nagasawa didn't change;
he simply improved what he did. don't look at the lugs. think about
his body of work. the lugs are on the outside. there's so much more
on the inside atmo.

Grant McLean
07-19-2006, 09:28 PM
there's so much more
on the inside atmo.

mmmmmmmmmmmm

http://www.billyscandies.com/billysstore/chewy/chocolate_caramel.asp


g

obtuse
07-19-2006, 09:47 PM
i'm sick of this lug shi'ite and this beautiful shorelines b.s. nagasawa builds race bikes using the the best materials, construction methods and experience available. they happen to be lugged steel frames because that is the method that keirin rules demand; that is the method in which he is most skilled and experienced and that is the method which continues to produce world class and world dominating keirin frames.

these bikes are tools not toys and they merely assume "art" status because perfect race bikes are perfect in a visual way as well. first and foremost mr. nagasawa is a living treasure for the same reason a samurai sword maker would be...

while many of you would disagree a nagasawa track frame is where it's at. appreciating one of his road frames is sort of like appreciating the kitchen cutlery made by the samurai sword guy; definatly worthy of adulation and praise; but atmo better not be making me a mountain bike if you know what i mean.

obtuse

atmo
07-19-2006, 09:53 PM
i'm sick of this lug shi'ite and this beautiful shorelines b.s. nagasawa builds race bikes using the the best materials, construction methods and experience available. they happen to be lugged steel frames because that is the method that keirin rules demand; that is the method in which he is most skilled and experienced and that is the method which continues to produce world class and world dominating keirin frames.

these bikes are tools not toys and they merely assume "art" status because perfect race bikes are perfect in a visual way as well. first and foremost mr. nagasawa is a living treasure for the same reason a samurai sword maker would be...

while many of you would disagree a nagasawa track frame is where it's at. appreciating one of his road frames is sort of like appreciating the kitchen cutlery made by the samurai sword guy; definatly worthy of adulation and praise; but atmo better not be making me a mountain bike if you know what i mean.

obtuse



don't go making me all apoplectic atmo.

obtuse
07-19-2006, 09:59 PM
don't go making me all apoplectic atmo.


ok i won't. sorry.

obtuse

fiamme red
07-19-2006, 10:09 PM
but atmo better not be making me a mountain bike if you know what i mean.Or one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Linear-Aluminum-Recumbant-Sachs-3x7Internal-hub-Bicycle_W0QQitemZ300009068413QQihZ020QQcategoryZ98 084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

dbrk
07-19-2006, 10:18 PM
I would agree that the Keiran frames are Mr Nagasawa's special province. The road frames are nowadays far from his heart and, well, he won't build one now unless you meet him and apparently ask very nicely. I have seen a video of him brazing on this remarkable contraption he has built just for the purpose. He sort of twirls the frames about, nudges and pounds on them, almost as if they were on a pinwheel, getting them not too hot, just right in alignment, in a way that is utterly unique (not in sense merely of "special" but more precisely in the sense of "no one else does it like this" or one of a kind). The outcome is a frame that on two separate alignment tables measured _perfectly_ aligned, not a millimeter or less off. Correct. My bikes ride like that as well: perfect going fast, forgiving going slow, steady without your hands on the bars, precise when you steer. These are bikes made to ride just so and while I prefer his aesthetics (I'm all about lugged steel, of course), it's the entire package that has brought me such joy. There is a precision and experience here that can't be replicated, only appreciated and honored for the effort it has taken to cultivate.

dbrk

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 10:24 PM
I think the Obtuse should run for President.

taz-t
07-19-2006, 10:32 PM
i dig google images

obtuse
07-19-2006, 10:33 PM
I think the Obtuse should run for President.


things will be all good on my watch yo.

herr president doktor obtuse

shinomaster
07-19-2006, 10:34 PM
i dig google images

word...that's rad.

obtuse
07-19-2006, 10:35 PM
i dig google images


to quote my favorite member of the new york dolls,

http://www.weddingvendors.com/music/lyrics/b/buster-poindexter/hot-hot-hot/

obtuse

manet
07-19-2006, 10:42 PM
to quote my favorite member of the new york dolls,

http://www.weddingvendors.com/music/lyrics/b/buster-poindexter/hot-hot-hot/

obtuse

buster keaton,
buster poindexter,

buster the cat:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_0576-1.jpg

Vanilla Gorilla
07-22-2006, 10:12 PM
http://www.popdan.com/hmbs05/?builder=nagasawa

cs124
07-23-2006, 02:33 AM
http://www.popdan.com/hmbs05/?builder=nagasawa


Oooh yeah, number 8...hubba hubba

stevep
07-23-2006, 09:20 AM
"Koichi Nakano of Japan is considered the best track sprinter of modern times.
He won ten consecutive Professional Sprint World Championships from 1977 to 1986,
and is the all-time winningest cyclist on Japan Professional Keirin circuit."

g

in '86 ...at the worlds held in colorado nakano was winning what i believe was his last world championship.
one of the guys i was at the event with found himself sitting next to nakanos parents at the track.
somewhere i have a hilarious photo of him sitting on mr nakanos lap and the 2 of them laughing and pointing at the camera. funny time... as i recall the parents spoke no english but got into the fun wholeheartedly...nakano himself was busy at the time smoking the rest of the sprinters on his beautiful steel bike....tenth in a row i believe.

Grant McLean
07-23-2006, 10:26 AM
in '86 ...at the worlds held in colorado nakano was winning what i believe was his last world championship.
one of the guys i was at the event with found himself sitting next to nakanos parents at the track.
somewhere i have a hilarious photo of him sitting on mr nakanos lap and the 2 of them laughing and pointing at the camera. funny time... as i recall the parents spoke no english but got into the fun wholeheartedly...nakano himself was busy at the time smoking the rest of the sprinters on his beautiful steel bike....tenth in a row i believe.


The irony for me (being Canadian) was that Gord Singleton was my hero,
and he had several run-ins with Koichi Nakano, and came out the worse
for it. Gord thought the Japanese guys rode real dirty, but I guess that's
how it was done.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504EFD81738F933A0575BC0A9649482 60

g

classic1
07-23-2006, 01:05 PM
Singleton was robbed IMO.

1982 was possibly the last full body contact World Sprint Championship :)

Grant McLean
07-23-2006, 02:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/results?search=keirin

g