H Plus Son - Spoke Tension

[Tony T]

What spoke tension are the builders here using for H Plus Son Archtype (24 hole rim) with Sapim CX-Ray Spokes?

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[ColonelJLloyd]

What spoke tension are the builders here using for H Plus Son (24 hole rim)?

Which rim? What spokes?

[Tony T]

Which rim? What spokes?

Yeah, that would help :) (I also edited the OP for this)

Archtype, Sapim CX-Ray

[oldpotatoe]

Yeah, that would help :) (I also edited the OP for this)

Archtype, Sapim CX-Ray

120 kgf max front, right hand rear. I shoot for 110 or so. On just about any aluminum rim and just about any spoke make or dimension or spoke count. Tension is tension.

[Tony T]

Here's what I'm getting with my Park TM-1

[ergott]

You should get to well within the 15% limit.

[Tony T]

You should get to well within the 15% limit.

I'm within 10% now (I've been working at it since my last post.)
btw, this wheel has about 10,000 miles on it.
Here's my final (for now) #'s
(I'll re-check after a few rides)

How does the left vs right tension look?

[ergott]

That looks good.

:beer:

[Tony T]

Thanks!
:beer:

[Tony T]

How much of a drop in kfg should be expected when the tire is mounted?
With a 25mm tire @ 90psi I get a drive side avg of 93 kfg (130kfg unmounted).

[Tony T]

BTW, sent an email to H Plus Son, they say to "keep it under 125 KGF"

[ergott]

Not much research has been done on just how much tension drop there is. I can tell you that some combinations of tire/rim are real bad. I've seen 50kgf from one rim/tubeless tire setup. It's all over the place.

Tire mfgs are not off the hook. They are not very consistent with the bead diameters from batch to batch.

[Tony T]

Thanks, that's good to know.

I would guess that even in extreme cases that the tension should still be done 'to spec' with the tire off the rim?

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[ergott]

Thanks, that's good to know.

I would guess that even in extreme cases that the tension should still be done 'to spec' with the tire off the rim?

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That's where there isn't a real consensus. I've bumped tension up a bit once tire was installed on my wheels. I've also started using a thread locker (mechanical from Sapim Secure lock or DT Pro Lock) more often. It's too easy to have NDS spokes go slack with the low tension ratio and tension drop when tires are installed.

[Tony T]

Is 'spoke prep' used when using Sapim Secure lock?

[AngryScientist]

Ive been using locking nipples lately too. I still go with boiled linseed oil for spoke lube; no reason for me to use anything else. My most recent set of wheels built with sapim locking nips, linseed oil and h+son tb14 rims has survived some brutal gravel rides on very rough " roads" and are still perfectly true- so im confident in my methodology. :hello:

[ergott]

Is 'spoke prep' used when using Sapim Secure lock?

No, Sapim Secure lock is a mechanical lock. They dimple the threads from the outside which pinches them increases friction.

[oldpotatoe]

That's where there isn't a real consensus. I've bumped tension up a bit once tire was installed on my wheels. I've also started using a thread locker (mechanical from Sapim Secure lock or DT Pro Lock) more often. It's too easy to have NDS spokes go slack with the low tension ratio and tension drop when tires are installed.

I've just decided to use Sapim's version of thread lock nipps on all my wheels, front and back, both sides. SecureLock nipps, little dent in side..not a huge fan of DT chemical lock. I still use boiled linseed oil between spoke and nipp...well cuz I'm an 'old dog'....
Should be mentioned, DT says no lube between spoke and nipp for their chemical theadlock nipps.

[Tony T]

Where do you guys source your wheel components?

[ergott]

Where do you guys source your wheel components?
The DIY builder can find a lot of great components at www.bikehubstore.com



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Where do you guys source your wheel components?

BikeHub Store
Fairwheel
Wheelbuilder.com

Others..kinda just google what you are looking for, 'Sapim spokes', type search.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Where do you guys source your wheel components?

I buy the majority of my spokes from a good dude named Lee; have for years. I just send him an email with what I need, he sends me a PayPal invoice and they're in the mail in a day or so. I order exactly what I want (he uses a Phil Wood cutter/threader) and they've always been spot on. PM me for his email. Silver Sapim Race are something like $.46 and brass nips $.06.

He does have an eBay store, but I can't find it right now.

[Tony T]

For just a few spokes (for repair) , I use http://smartbikeparts.com
They also have other components.

[ColonelJLloyd]

For just a few spokes (for repair) , I use http://smartbikeparts.com
They also have other components.

To that end, whenever I buy spokes for a new build I buy 1-2 extra spokes in each length requested.

[Tony T]

Is there a range that the non-drive side tension (for 11speed) should be when compared to the drive side? For example, if I'm getting 120kfg on the drive side and 50kfg on the non drive side, is this variance considered typical?
(my guess is that there is no 'typical' due to variances in rim and spoke manufactures)

[oldpotatoe]

Is there a range that the non-drive side tension (for 11speed) should be when compared to the drive side? For example, if I'm getting 120kfg on the drive side and 50kfg on the non drive side, is this variance considered typical?
(my guess is that there is no 'typical' due to variances in rim and spoke manufactures)

If the RH side is proper tension, the wheel is dished and round, the LH side kinda takes care of itself. If you feel LH side too low, no real way to 'fix' it w/o making the RH side too high..but 120/50 is very typical.

[Tony T]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, thanks.

[Mark McM]

Is there a range that the non-drive side tension (for 11speed) should be when compared to the drive side? For example, if I'm getting 120kfg on the drive side and 50kfg on the non drive side, is this variance considered typical?
(my guess is that there is no 'typical' due to variances in rim and spoke manufactures)

The ratio of right/left tension is determined purely by geometry - i.e. the dimensions of the hub and rim. And of these two components, the hub flange offsets are the dominant factor. Your tension ratio is 2.4:1 (120Kgf/50kgf). This is exactly what you'd expect to see if the flange offsets were 16mm Right/ 38 mm Left (38/16 = 2.38). Different hubs will have different flange offset, so the tension ratios will be different, but 16mm/38mm would be typical for an 11spd wheel.

[yashcha]

Thank you guys, refrenced this thread and built a killer wheelset last night. archetype/sapim race/bikehubstore for around $300, 1650 grams. Took me about 2 hours to build up, and tension/roundness/trueness looks perfect.

[Tony T]

Thank you guys, refrenced this thread and built a killer wheelset last night. archetype/sapim race/bikehubstore for around $300, 1650 grams. Took me about 2 hours to build up, and tension/roundness/trueness looks perfect.

Nice wheels. What Hubs?

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[Tony T]

What are the dimensions for Sapim CX-Ray?
Sapim lists as: 2.0 - (0.9x2.2) - 2.0 mm (http://www.sapim.be/spokes/aero/cx-ray),
Wheelbuilder.com lists as 0.9x2.3 (http://www.wheelbuilder.com/sapim-cx-ray-spoke.html)
Park list as 2.1m x 1mm bladed steel (Sapim® CX Ray) (http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/wheel-tension-measurement#article-section-4) (with an old post saying (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.bicycles.tech/2008-01/msg02482.html) "The CX-ray was used to calibrate the chart. The CX-ray does not measure 2.3mm by our caliper, but 2.1. The 0.9 was rounded to 1mm. Use the 2.1 x 1 column on the CX-ray. Again, that was the spoke we used for that column..")

I guess in the "old days" before Park set up the parktool.com/wta website, the printed chart had to be used, but now any measurement can be added to the conversion, so what the caliper reads is what should be used in the on-line wta tool.

I measure 0.9x2.2 with my caliper.
Curious as to what dimension others are getting (to check against my measurements).

Edit: More info on spoke dimensions here: http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/tension-inaccuracy/


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[yashcha]

Nice wheels. What Hubs?

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Thank you! Hubs are bikehubstore sl79 and sl210. Surprisingly nice hubs. I have been buying from those guys for years.

[Tony T]

http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/wheel-fanatyk-300x46.png
Kgf v. Psi, part 1
Here’s first of a 2-part discussion of this phenomenon, that is reaching a worrying scale in today’s wheels. Inflate a clincher to 90psi (6 bar) and you may see tension drop 20-50%. Why? Is tension drop bad? Should wheels be over tightened to compensate?

Read more: http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/kgf-v-psi-part-1/

[Mark McM]

http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/wheel-fanatyk-300x46.png
Kgf v. Psi, part 1
Here’s first of a 2-part discussion of this phenomenon, that is reaching a worrying scale in today’s wheels. Inflate a clincher to 90psi (6 bar) and you may see tension drop 20-50%. Why? Is tension drop bad? Should wheels be over tightened to compensate?

Read more: http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/kgf-v-psi-part-1/

The WheelFanatyk article appears to ignore the affect of the bias ply casing constriction, which also causes spoke tension loss with inflation pressure. Since tubulars are also constructed with bias ply casings, tubulars will also cause tension loss with inflation.

[Tony T]

The WheelFanatyk article appears to ignore the affect of the bias ply casing constriction, which also causes spoke tension loss with inflation pressure. Since tubulars are also constructed with bias ply casings, tubulars will also cause tension loss with inflation.

Maybe in Part 2 (not posted yet)? "Next on tension drop concerns tires themselves"

[Tony T]

Kgf v. Psi, part 2 (http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/kgf-v-psi-part-2/)
Here in Part 2 we explore how tires, independent of inflation, affect this dynamic.

[Tony T]

Kgf vs Psi, part 3 (http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/)
"Here in Part 3, let’s ask what builders can do to minimize negative influences of tension drop. After all, builders invest spoked structures with tension and answer for wheel performance"

[weisan]

Tony pal, I want to commend you for taking such a strong interest in wheel building and going a lot further than I could or would. Good for you!

[MaraudingWalrus]

I really am interested in part3 on that about "what to do."


On my wheels on my gravel bike, White Industries CLD to Velocity Ailerons with Sapim Force spokes, I built to 110kgf rear ds and disc side front, and then with somewhere around ~8% variance in tension.

Once tires mounted, rear ds and disc side on front are down around 60kgf.

A ~50% loss in tension is huge and mind blowing.

[Formulasaab]

I really am interested in part3 on that about "what to do."

Unfortunately, there wasn't much in Part 3 that was immediately useful to someone sitting at the bench building a wheel. Rather, it seemed like a "call to arms" of sorts, which I found odd considering the lead-ins to the articles. It was still worth reading I think.

But that's neither here nor there...

What I came here to report and what I thought might be useful was my observation of tension drop after tire installation/inflation on a wheel build I did this weekend.

The rim and tire combo is American Classic ACRD 2218 road tubeless rims with IRC Formula Pro Tubeless RBCC tires, 25c, @100 psi. These tires were recommended to me by American Classic customer support as being a good match for their bead profile and their preferred ride.

Overall, the build with these rims was a satisfactory experience. They were round and I was able to get an exceptionally even spoke tension on the front and reasonably even readings on the rear. This wheel build was a departure for me. Usually I insist on things like directional spoke hole drilling but this wheelbuild had a different goal. I wanted:

* classic low-profile (box section) look
* modern-light
* modern-wide
* tubless compatible
* with muted graphics/branding

These (mostly) fit the bill.

Anyway, I started with a bit-too-tight pre-build before installing the tires and recorded my tensions.

Pre-build average tension FRONT: 119 kgf.
Pre-build average tension REAR NDS: 85 kgf.
Pre-build average tension REAR DS: 185 kgf.

Then I installed the tires and inflated to 100 psi.

Tire installed FRONTaverage tension: 71 kgf. (a 40% drop)
Tire installed REAR NDS average tension: 50 kgf. (40% drop)
Tire installed REAR DS average tension: 128 kgf. (31% drop)

I then did a final re-tension to my preference rate and called it done. However, after sleeping on it, I think the rear wheel DS tension crept up higher than I want it. I am going to go back and tune it down.

Still, I was surprised at just how big the tension drop was. A front wheel that I considered a fair bit over-tight ended up significantly low after tire installation. A rear wheel (which I over-tightened even more extremely after the experience with the front) ended up damn close to where I wanted it, but the dish had moved a bit (necessitating some additional fiddling).

Tire installation was easy, for what it is worth. Yes, I used a compressor.

I haven't ridden them yet, and won't for a while as I am still recovering from the flu (precisely why I had time to do a wheel build).

Add that to the collective knowledge base.