Not getting Medical Insurance need Cycling Insurance

[elcolombiano]

Decided to not get Medical Insurance next year due to the high cost. I am looking for ways to cover me in case of a bike injury. Here is what I have so far.

1. Uninsured/Underinsured motorist coverage from my car policy $250K/$500K
2. Markel American Insurance Company Medical payments $10K

Do any of you know where I can get more coverage in the event I crash and have medical expenses?

[peanutgallery]

I would counsel you not to go this route...ever. explore your options and get health insurance. Particularly if you have dependents and your area is as dangerous as you claim in your other thread

[ripvanrando]

Just don't speak English in the ER.

[Ralph]

I have a riding friend who decided not to have health insurance. Too expensive. After a ride back in July.....after we had finished lunch.....while he was carrying his bike down some steps....he fell. Freak thing....somehow front wheels tangled up his legs. He was holding onto rail with one hand, bike with another.

Broke his femur. So hospital and surgery. Then rehab. Then he couldn't pee, so catheter can't be removed for a while. Back in hospital. Now blood clots in bladder. Back in hospital. Still can't pee all the time. So now self cathing. He's walking now, but somehow one leg shorter than another. Don't know if he will ever ride again. Just one complication after another. Obviously not all by the fall. Big dollars. All this triggered by a fall after a bike ride. So weird....couldn't make this up. Even if he does recover physically.....doubt if he ever recovers financially. Insure yourself some way.

[93legendti]

Life Secure- I have a policy that covers accidents $64/month for my family.

https://www.yourlifesecure.com/Individuals/Our-Products/

[slowgoing]

The IRS now fines you if you don't have health insurance. Not just a slap on the wrist either, enough in some instances to cover what your insurance premium would have been.

[AngryScientist]

if i didnt have ANY health coverage, a bike accident would the low on my list of worries.

[bcroslin]

What a country we live in that this is even a concern. Really makes me sick.

[carpediemracing]

First, if you really don't want to have health insurance, divorce your wife if applicable, remove yourself from any ownership of anything (houses, cars, etc). Legally become a homeless person, if you will. Because if anything happens to you and you own anything, you'll basically need to forfeit it.

Paying for medical stuff is one of the leading causes for personal bankruptcy in the US. Not that the following is a definitive authority on the topic but it showed up at the top of my Google-ness:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/simple-thrifty-living/top-10-reasons-people-go-_b_6887642.html

For all of the US's strengths, a major weakness is lack of universal medical insurance. To protect yourself you really have to get some kind of health insurance, otherwise you risk losing everything.

[sitzmark]

The IRS now fines you if you don't have health insurance. Not just a slap on the wrist either, enough in some instances to cover what your insurance premium would have been.

This. At least $695/individual and up to the cost of the minimum base level plan ~$2,000. Or 2.5% of income above $10k. Whichever is greater. (All personal situations are different, so just a guideline for reference.)

Might as well put that money toward a plan that provides some kind of coverage, rather than "pay twice" for a plan that doesn't comply AND pay the penalty.

[thwart]

Just don't speak English in the ER.

Very nice... drink your Monday morning coffee and change your attitude.

[bigbill]

I would certainly find places to save money over not having insurance. I do taxes each year for low income and elderly through United Way. The people who make a little too much to get Medicaid but choose not to buy from the marketplace are shocked when they see the penalty taken out of their normal refund. And when you do your taxes, February through April, is not an open enrollment period.

Most low income people I see who make too much for Medicaid and choose to buy from the marketplace are paying <$100 a month with offsets for their insurance plan. You're allowed a 3 month gap in coverage without incurring a penalty.

[akelman]

Just don't speak English in the ER.

It's garbage like this that keeps me out of most threads in the General Discussion forum these days. At least in the Classifieds I can usually avoid the overt bigotry.

[Mr. Pink]

First, if you really don't want to have health insurance, divorce your wife if applicable, remove yourself from any ownership of anything (houses, cars, etc). Legally become a homeless person, if you will. Because if anything happens to you and you own anything, you'll basically need to forfeit it.

Paying for medical stuff is one of the leading causes for personal bankruptcy in the US. Not that the following is a definitive authority on the topic but it showed up at the top of my Google-ness:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/simple-thrifty-living/top-10-reasons-people-go-_b_6887642.html

For all of the US's strengths, a major weakness is lack of universal medical insurance. To protect yourself you really have to get some kind of health insurance, otherwise you risk losing everything.


This is actually good advice. Although I have pretty good health insurance, and will enter the golden zone of Medicare soon, I will not remarry for the rest of my life to protect her finances (if she's dumb enough to marry old Pink) and also mine. Either could be wiped out in six months from an accident or cancer. Most couples should divorce, try to stash most of their assets in places that are shielded from bankruptcy procedures, and then write wills that will reassure both that assets will be transferred back to them at time of death. Sorry, but, I've seen a few couple's finances destroyed by the end of life. It's not pretty.

[Mr. Pink]

Just don't speak English in the ER.

Lovely. You should look up the statistics of the racial and ethnic makeup of most of the poor in this country. There are millions and millions of white, English speaking people with nowhere else to go but the emergency room, because they have no money, and certainly, no health insurance. It's quite a stain on our standing in the world.

[redir]

I admit, I didn't have health insurance for many many years, raced bikes, climbed mountains, was highly active in cave exploration and well just living is dangerous. It was stupid, I got away with it, I was lucky. I was also living on my own, didn't own a house or even a car worth much of anything. That was also before it was the law (assuming you are a US citizen).

You are one medical issue away from living under a bridge. Think of it that way. You get hurt or sick and they will take everything you own.

Good luck. And BTW I would not be a bit surprised if jsut bicycle insurance would require you to have regular insurance as well.

[ripvanrando]

What a country we live in that this is even a concern. Really makes me sick.

The one where mandatory health insurance can cost individual citizens more than $20k per year. Just facts. Makes me even sicker.

Obamacare eliminated catastrophic health care insurance plans. We used to be able to buy catastrophic health care insurance plans with high deductibles for several hundred a month. They are gone. The plans that we liked are also gone.

ERs are definitely abused by many. Why? Because there are no alternatives for some. How does someone afford $20k after-tax on even a relatively lofty $75K income. Those at the lowest level of income get subsidy but the costs are still substantial.

Even with health insurance, my plan only covers me in my state of residence. If I need care when travelling, I am screwed.

OP....no insurance and you have little recourse other than falsification of ID during ER admittance and speaking other language is one means. Will it work? Of course not. I suppose all the vitreous are from those with employer provided healthcare. No insurance? Give up all of your assets to a fraudulent system and if that offends anyone, sorry.

[Bruce K]

Not sure that comment was as much bigotry as frustration with the current system.

And, if not bigotry, it was either political, off the topic, potentially "being a jerk" and therefore not welcome here.

BK

[Mr. Pink]

Nope. Bigotry.

[FlashUNC]

Trying to cobble together a patchwork replacement for health insurance is actually a fair description of our current healthcare system. And its not exactly working wonders.

You're better off just biting the bullet and getting health insurance. You're not going to game the system and as others mentioned, could end up paying twice for what you should have just paid once for.

And I second Angry's sentiment. Hitting the deck is the least of your worries without insurance.

[cinema]

i'm also interested in solutions to ops problem. i have also maxed out all my medical policies on my car insurance plan. i do have insurance through my employer but interested in terminating it.

theoretically, since Obamacare bans insurance companies from denying coverage due to preexisting conditions, what's stopping someone from buying insurance as soon as a problem arises?

[Ralph]

I have a riding friend who decided not to have health insurance. Too expensive. After a ride back in July.....after we had finished lunch.....while he was carrying his bike down some steps....he fell. Freak thing....somehow front wheels tangled up his legs. He was holding onto rail with one hand, bike with another.

Broke his femur. So hospital and surgery. Then rehab. Then he couldn't pee, so catheter can't be removed for a while. Back in hospital. Now blood clots in bladder. Back in hospital. Still can't pee all the time. So now self cathing. He's walking now, but somehow one leg shorter than another. Don't know if he will ever ride again. Just one complication after another. Obviously not all by the fall. Big dollars. All this triggered by a fall after a bike ride. So weird....couldn't make this up. Even if he does recover physically.....doubt if he ever recovers financially. Insure yourself some way.

Could you foresee this?

[zap]

Not only should you have health insurance but disability insurance as well.

[bcroslin]

The one where mandatory health insurance can cost individual citizens more than $20k per year. Just facts. Makes me even sicker.

Obamacare eliminated catastrophic health care insurance plans. We used to be able to buy catastrophic health care insurance plans with high deductibles for several hundred a month. They are gone. The plans that we liked are also gone.

ERs are definitely abused by many. Why? Because there are no alternatives for some. How does someone afford $20k after-tax on even a relatively lofty $75K income. Those at the lowest level of income get subsidy but the costs are still substantial.

Even with health insurance, my plan only covers me in my state of residence. If I need care when travelling, I am screwed.

OP....no insurance and you have little recourse other than falsification of ID during ER admittance and speaking other language is one means. Will it work? Of course not. I suppose all the vitreous are from those with employer provided healthcare. No insurance? Give up all of your assets to a fraudulent system and if that offends anyone, sorry.

I'm going to ignore your bigotry to make the point that no one - rich or poor - should have to fear dying or bankruptcy due to being uninsured or underinsured. Medicare needs to be expanded for everyone. Single payer is the future so that no one falls between the cracks.

[carpediemracing]

i'm also interested in solutions to ops problem. i have also maxed out all my medical policies on my car insurance plan. i do have insurance through my employer but interested in terminating it.

theoretically, since Obamacare bans insurance companies from denying coverage due to preexisting conditions, what's stopping someone from buying insurance as soon as a problem arises?

The problem is if you're in the ER or unconscious or whatever. You can't go get insurance after the fact and have it effective retroactively.

For something like a really bad stomach ache or something, sure, you could do that, but waiting a day for the insurance to kick in may not be a way to stay alive, if, say, your appendix burst.

[cinema]

so let's say my insurance is 1500/month. over a year i'll pay 18k for insurance. lets say, on the high end, i end up paying 60k for a burst appendix. once in my life. i don't see the math working out for healthy people even for a procedure that is 100k for a once in a lifetime thing. by the time you're 65, you have medicare. there needs to be more sensible levels of coverage which some of us very healthy people are trying to seek out. my family has no history of illness whatsoever and i'm very lucky in that respect. i have also been able to pay less out of pocket by seeking out doctors who will discuss price with me and set flat prices for non life threatening procedures like cyst removal or allergy shots

[Gsinill]

I'm going to ignore your bigotry to make the point that no one - rich or poor - should have to fear dying or bankruptcy due to being uninsured or underinsured. Medicare needs to be expanded for everyone. Single payer is the future so that no one falls between the cracks.

This.

Discussing this with anybody that never had the privilege of living within a working universal healthcare system is a waste of time IMHO.
Not having to worry about being taken care of is a substantial addition to the overall quality of life.

[93legendti]

This.

Discussing this with anybody that never had the privilege of living within a working universal healthcare system is a waste of time IMHO.
Not having to worry about being taken care of is a substantial addition to the overall quality of life.

"Working"...lol.

I lived in Canada for 11 years. If you like waiting 3 years for scoliosis surgery when you are in extreme pain and 5 days for an angioplasty (The standard in the US when you present to an ER with his symptoms is treatment within 90 minutes, and the average time for treatment is 63 minutes.) when you have a 90% blockage, single payer is for you.

These things happened to our friends, a married couple. He was on the board of the local hospital and he got the same sh@tty, delayed treatment as everyone else. The only reason he didn't have to wait longer is I called the president of the hospital and told him that they had a looming PR disaster on their hands if my friend died waiting for the angioplasty.

Also, anyone on our block who needed cancer treatments or heart surgery came to the US and paid out of their pockets because they didn't trust the doctors in their single-payer system.

The premiere of BC recently did the same thing -seeking treatment in America because the treatment in Canada is delayed and even when you get it it is generally deficient.

Not to mention taxes in Canada are what, over 50%?

No one has invented the free lunch. No one. I do hear fables of "free health care that is wonderful".

[Gsinill]

"Working"...lol.

I lived in Canada for 11 years. If you like waiting 3 years for scoliosis surgery when you are in extreme pain and 5 days for an angioplasty (The standard in the US when you present to an ER with his symptoms is treatment within 90 minutes, and the average time for treatment is 63 minutes.) when you have a 90% blockage, single payer is for you.

These things happened to our friends, a married couple. He was on the board of the local hospital and he got the same sh@tty, delayed treatment as everyone else. The only reason he didn't have to wait longer is I called the president of the hospital and told him that they had a looming PR disaster on their hands if my friend died waiting for the angioplasty.

Also, anyone on our block who needed cancer treatments or heart surgery came to the US and paid out of their pockets because they didn't trust the doctors in their single-payer system.

The premiere of BC recently did the same thing -seeking treatment in America because the treatment in Canada is delayed and even when you get it it is generally deficient.

Not to mention taxes in Canada are what, over 50%?

No one has invented the free lunch. No one. I do hear fables of "free health care that is wonderful".

Germany.
And I never said "free".

Does it work in Israel?

[R3awak3n]

To whoever was talking about the couple hundred dollar catastrophic plans... those were garbage and a waste of money. They did not even cover an ambulance. For $200, they were only good if you were almost dead or have cancer.

I am now paying $340, its $140 more a month but I do get a couple of free doctor visits and much lower deductible if anything happens (and a year after I was not on the crappy catastrophic I broke my ankle and glad I was on this new plan).


Anyways, the system sucks here and it also sucks in countries with free health care but at the end of the day there is an option and that is what is all about.

You want crappy free health care? you have it, if you want better then you can pay for it. It is not about the fact that its not good care its the fact that everyone has access to it and knows they are not going to go bankrupt/scared of even going to a a doctor.

But yes, most countries with free health care have crappy health care, I know someone back home (Portugal) that broke his ankle at the same time I broke mine. I had my surgery within 2 weeks, his was 6 months (they had to rebrake the bone). So this guy was on crutches for 9 months which I was on crutches for 3. However he paid almost nothing and I paid, even with insurance about $10 000 (I got unlucky and had the brake decemeber so I had to pay 2 times my deductible) and had I not had insurance would have been about $50 000

[Ralph]

Medicare only pays 80%, and keep in mind when you are older, medical procedures you generally need cost a whole lot more. And happen a whole lot more often. Have a heart attack and prostate surgery same year, and you owe a lot out of pocket. Then if you need rehab or skilled care for a while, Medicare only pays first 20 days. Even us seniors need some back up insurance to Medicare. I don't see any way around it.

[biker72]

Medicare only pays 80%, and keep in mind when you are older, medical procedures you generally need cost a whole lot more. And happen a whole lot more often. Have a heart attack and prostate surgery same year, and you owe a lot out of pocket. Then if you need rehab or skilled care for a while, Medicare only pays first 20 days. Even us seniors need some back up insurance to Medicare. I don't see any way around it.

100% correct.
Fortunately my old company has set me up pretty well with insurance.

My wife had something even better from Texas Teachers Retirement. Her total medical bill in 2015 ,doctors.hospital...etc.), was $162K. The co-pay was zero.

[Mikej]

Got a USA Cycling license? They offer supplemental ins-I'm a card holder but don't know what it entails.

[earlfoss]

Just don't speak English in the ER.

Though not put so nicely, there is a kernel of truth to that. There is a free lunch for illegal aliens in the U.S. healthcare system in some communities. In the recent health care overhaul, the federal government killed the possibility of making insurance available to anyone who can't provide a legal immigration status. Since they are still here and they still get sick, some local communities choose to provide basic (nonemergency) health care to these people. The financial cost can be in the billions of dollars but it is a noble humanitarian thing to do. That nice thing doesn't soften the reality of all in that community having to collectively pick up the tab.

On an unrelated note, I have a friend who crashed and broke his femur on a ride just outside of Florence, Italy recently. The tale of his adventure in the emergency room, and operation at the public hospital was a sobering reminder to me that what we have in the USA certainly isn't perfect, but even so we have it good here.

Contrasting that with my experience after a bad crash, hospital stay, and operation leads me to believe that the standard of care and wait times are pretty alright here in the USA. That my opinion based on my n = 1 experience.

[Zoodles]

"Working"...lol.

I lived in Canada for 11 years. If you like waiting 3 years for scoliosis surgery when you are in extreme pain and 5 days for an angioplasty (The standard in the US when you present to an ER with his symptoms is treatment within 90 minutes, and the average time for treatment is 63 minutes.) when you have a 90% blockage, single payer is for you.

These things happened to our friends, a married couple. He was on the board of the local hospital and he got the same sh@tty, delayed treatment as everyone else. The only reason he didn't have to wait longer is I called the president of the hospital and told him that they had a looming PR disaster on their hands if my friend died waiting for the angioplasty.

Also, anyone on our block who needed cancer treatments or heart surgery came to the US and paid out of their pockets because they didn't trust the doctors in their single-payer system.

The premiere of BC recently did the same thing -seeking treatment in America because the treatment in Canada is delayed and even when you get it it is generally deficient.

Not to mention taxes in Canada are what, over 50%?

No one has invented the free lunch. No one. I do hear fables of "free health care that is wonderful".

Just plain bullsh*t. Canadian born and over 40 years I've never seen what you describe. My newborn had seizures, within hours we had a room full of doctors at the best hospital in Ontario. last year I had chest pains, I was in the mri machine that night and had a full cancer check by weeks end.
Just a couple of recent examples over a lifetime of single payer health-care. Indeed taxes are approx. 40% but well worth it knowing others won't be ruined by health issues.

Very rarely, last I read was 1%, does a Canadian go see where for health-care and it's generally for.a specialist, it's hard to beat the Cleveland Institute for complex heart surgery

[Ralph]

Maybe I'm just old and don't understand things.....but seems to me....when discussing health care costs.....it's really only about how you go about dividing the costs up. Since every American has health care, insured, subsidized health plans, medicade, ER care, one way or another, we all pay....one way for another. When gov't pays, we all pay.

The old way....before ACA, if no insurance....they went to ER....charity case. We paid with a joint state/fed program plus local hospital taxes on our RE tax bill, plus some of the local sales tax. If you had insurance at work....you and employer paid. You got to deduct your share (up to a point) and company got to deduct their share. Self employed with insurance.....you paid, but deducted all of it as a cost. Single payer system....gov't pays....just like above.

Seems to me.....since cost of our total healthcare to society is about the same, no matter how you do the programs.....the only question is what system is the most efficient with best outcomes.

[redir]

Maybe I'm just old and don't understand things.....but seems to me....when discussing health care costs.....it's really only about how you go about dividing the costs up. Since every American has health care, insured, subsidized health plans, medicade, ER care, one way or another, we all pay....one way for another. When gov't pays, we all pay.

The old way....before ACA, if no insurance....they went to ER....charity case. We paid with a joint state/fed program plus local hospital taxes on our RE tax bill, plus some of the local sales tax. If you had insurance at work....you and employer paid. You got to deduct your share (up to a point) and company got to deduct their share. Self employed with insurance.....you paid, but deducted all of it as a cost. Single payer system....gov't pays....just like above.

Seems to me.....since cost of our total healthcare to society is about the same, no matter how you do the programs.....the only question is what system is the most efficient with best outcomes.

Maybe some are charity cases but not all for sure. Typically you could after many years negotiate and often times they might even just drop the rest of your payment all together. But without insurance you would get billed and have to work out a payment plan. It could be as low as $20 a month but it will be with you for life and or until payed off.

Lets face it without something like ACA the only way to enforce it would be to build grave yards in the back yards of hospitals. Can't pay? Grab your own shovel and start digging. BUt as such, like you said, we all end up paying for the insured and the uninsured alike in one way or another.

[Ralph]

Maybe some are charity cases but not all for sure. Typically you could after many years negotiate and often times they might even just drop the rest of your payment all together. But without insurance you would get billed and have to work out a payment plan. It could be as low as $20 a month but it will be with you for life and or until payed off.

Lets face it without something like ACA the only way to enforce it would be to build grave yards in the back yards of hospitals. Can't pay? Grab your own shovel and start digging. BUt as such, like you said, we all end up paying for the insured and the uninsured alike in one way or another.

True....I left out self payers. My point is whether you pay personally, employer pays, local tax payer pays, Fed pays, state pays, etc.....the total cost for healthcare for the citizens of our country is a certain amount. No matter how you divide it up. Problem is.....current system doesn't work for many.....and since generally we don't like to see people dying in streets of disease (and starvation), most societies work up a system that protects it's citizens again financial ruin in case of sickness and accidents. We don't have that. Current systems only works for those that can afford it. And for those with no assets. And yes....I understand the fix to this kinda goes against the grain of traditional American beliefs about self reliance.

[93legendti]

Germany.
And I never said "free".

Does it work in Israel?

Nope. That's why they also have private insurance, which is what the people with money buy. They don't want the "free health care".

VA is single payer. Coverage to die for.

[93legendti]

Just plain bullsh*t. Canadian born and over 40 years I've never seen what you describe. My newborn had seizures, within hours we had a room full of doctors at the best hospital in Ontario. last year I had chest pains, I was in the mri machine that night and had a full cancer check by weeks end.
Just a couple of recent examples over a lifetime of single payer health-care. Indeed taxes are approx. 40% but well worth it knowing others won't be ruined by health issues.

Very rarely, last I read was 1%, does a Canadian go see where for health-care and it's generally for.a specialist, it's hard to beat the Cleveland Institute for complex heart surgery

Sorry. Windsor, Ontario. I don't lie. But thanks for calling me a liar.

[93legendti]

"With these words, Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams defended his decision to hop the border and go under the knife for heart surgery in Florida."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/its-my-health-its-my-choice-danny-williams-says/article4311853/?service=mobile

[93legendti]

Just plain bullsh*t. Canadian born and over 40 years I've never seen what you describe. My newborn had seizures, within hours we had a room full of doctors at the best hospital in Ontario. last year I had chest pains, I was in the mri machine that night and had a full cancer check by weeks end.
Just a couple of recent examples over a lifetime of single payer health-care. Indeed taxes are approx. 40% but well worth it knowing others won't be ruined by health issues.

Very rarely, last I read was 1%, does a Canadian go see where for health-care and it's generally for.a specialist, it's hard to beat the Cleveland Institute for complex heart surgery
Your vehemence and anger (coupled with your lack of knowledge) doesn't change the truth:

"An estimated 52,000 Canadians — half of those from Ontario — left the country to receive non-emergency health care in 2014, according to a report titled Leaving Canada for Medical Care.
The new report notes an increase of more than 10,000 patients — or 26 per cent — from a year earlier are looking outside Canada for medical treatment."

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/windsor/estimated-52-000-canadians-sought-medical-care-outside-canada-fraser-institute-says-1.2997726

[93legendti]

"A study by Steven Katz, Diana Verilli, and Morris Barer in Health Affairs examining the Ontario Health Insurance Plan from 1987 to 1995 found “evidence of cross-border care seeking for cardiovascular and orthopedic procedures, mental health services, and cancer treatments,” although not widespread. Examples include the governments of British Columbia and Quebec sending patients to the United States for coronary artery surgery and cancer treatment. Shona Holmes, a Kingston, Ontario resident in need of an endocrinologist and neurologist, crossed the border when she was told to wait “four months for one specialist and six months for the other.”Karen Jepp delivered identical quadruplets in Montana “because of a shortage of neonatal beds in Canada,” with the Calgary health system picking up the tab."

http://dailysignal.com/2010/02/09/the-canadian-patients’-remedy-for-health-care-go-to-america/

[93legendti]

Your vehemence and anger (coupled with your lack of knowledge) doesn't change the truth:

"An estimated 52,000 Canadians — half of those from Ontario — left the country to receive non-emergency health care in 2014, according to a report titled Leaving Canada for Medical Care.
The new report notes an increase of more than 10,000 patients — or 26 per cent — from a year earlier are looking outside Canada for medical treatment."

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/windsor/estimated-52-000-canadians-sought-medical-care-outside-canada-fraser-institute-says-1.2997726

More from the study:

'Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.

In 2011, Canadians enrolled in the nation’s government-dominated health service waited long periods of time for an estimated 941,321 procedures. As many as 2.8 percent of Canadians were waiting for treatment at any given time, according to the Institute.

“In some cases, these patients needed to leave Canada due to a lack of available resources or a lack of appropriate procedure/technology,” according to the Institute. “In others, their departure will have been driven by a desire to return more quickly to their lives, to seek out superior quality care, or perhaps to save their own lives or avoid the risk of disability.”

Increases in the number of patients leaving Canada for treatment were seen in seven of the ten Canadian provinces: British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador.'

[makoti]

Very rarely, last I read was 1%, does a Canadian go see where for health-care and it's generally for.a specialist, it's hard to beat the Cleveland Institute for complex heart surgery

And Americans go overseas for treatments not approved here. So the argument that people leave Canada to come here is pretty much bullcaca.
MRI for chest pain? Sure you don't mean CT?

[Gsinill]

Nope. That's why they also have private insurance, which is what the people with money buy. They don't want the "free health care".


Got it, same in Germany: people making enough can opt out from the mandate and/or get private insurance.

Now for the folks with "less money" in Israel, you are saying the system does not work for them?

Weird (https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d4c8e2fc87db90ec9274735d16801f4f?convert_to_webp=t rue)

And again, why are you so hung up on "free"? I said universal HC not single payer system.

[Zoodles]

^^I have no anger, no agenda and would rather not be dragged down into your agenda driven nonsense, however, check your math, 52,000/36 million puts my off hand 1% close to the mark.

The system is not perfect, there are isolated cases/anecdotes, but it serves the vast majority very well.

[OtayBW]

Geez - I step away to actually do some work today, and all this crap in so many different flavors. This is not the 'off-season'- not even close. How about a bike ride?

[shovelhd]

Got a USA Cycling license? They offer supplemental ins-I'm a card holder but don't know what it entails.

It doesn't entail what you think it does. If you have other insurance, it covers the difference between R&C charges and what your primary insurer pays. It does not pay deductibles or copays. You are only covered for the event you are entered in. If you do not have primary insurance, it covers everything up to $25k with a $5k deductible, but there are significant restrictions. It is supplemental coverage only.

[Mr. Pink]

so let's say my insurance is 1500/month. over a year i'll pay 18k for insurance. lets say, on the high end, i end up paying 60k for a burst appendix. once in my life. i don't see the math working out for healthy people even for a procedure that is 100k for a once in a lifetime thing. by the time you're 65, you have medicare. there needs to be more sensible levels of coverage which some of us very healthy people are trying to seek out. my family has no history of illness whatsoever and i'm very lucky in that respect. i have also been able to pay less out of pocket by seeking out doctors who will discuss price with me and set flat prices for non life threatening procedures like cyst removal or allergy shots

I'll bet you that your family has one common medical issue. All of them, your ancestors, died. Now, death, from what I'm witnessing in my older age, isn't just some thing that swoops down on most people in the middle of the night and takes healthy people to where ever, poof, gone, bye. Nope, especially today, it's long and slow and brutal, because so much technology exists to keep people alive at the end that didn't exist just 50 years ago. Furgetabout cancer. That one can be a real miserable, very very expensive end. Sad to say, but death for the Boomers marching into the end is going to be an awesomely profitable industry, making a lot of kids who expected inheritances very sad.
You're going to grow old, and things are going to happen to your body that aren't happening in your forties and even fifties. You'll live much better through your 70s, if you make it, if you have insurance. It makes dealing with those issues in your body going south much easier, instead of ignoring them. That's not gonna work, trust me.

[Mr. Pink]

"A study by Steven Katz, Diana Verilli, and Morris Barer in Health Affairs examining the Ontario Health Insurance Plan from 1987 to 1995 found “evidence of cross-border care seeking for cardiovascular and orthopedic procedures, mental health services, and cancer treatments,” although not widespread. Examples include the governments of British Columbia and Quebec sending patients to the United States for coronary artery surgery and cancer treatment. Shona Holmes, a Kingston, Ontario resident in need of an endocrinologist and neurologist, crossed the border when she was told to wait “four months for one specialist and six months for the other.”Karen Jepp delivered identical quadruplets in Montana “because of a shortage of neonatal beds in Canada,” with the Calgary health system picking up the tab."

http://dailysignal.com/2010/02/09/the-canadian-patients’-remedy-for-health-care-go-to-america/


Canada has its income inequality issues like every other country in the world. In other words, Canada has a lot of wealthy people. Wealthy people can afford to seek the best medical care anywhere in the world. It's only a first class ticket away. Hell, if it's the northern U.S., it's a back of a limo ride away. Your 50,000 patients number sounds about right. Trust me, if I was rich and sick, I wouldn't get in line.

[Mr. Pink]

"Working"...lol.

I lived in Canada for 11 years. If you like waiting 3 years for scoliosis surgery when you are in extreme pain and 5 days for an angioplasty (The standard in the US when you present to an ER with his symptoms is treatment within 90 minutes, and the average time for treatment is 63 minutes.) when you have a 90% blockage, single payer is for you.

These things happened to our friends, a married couple. He was on the board of the local hospital and he got the same sh@tty, delayed treatment as everyone else. The only reason he didn't have to wait longer is I called the president of the hospital and told him that they had a looming PR disaster on their hands if my friend died waiting for the angioplasty.

Also, anyone on our block who needed cancer treatments or heart surgery came to the US and paid out of their pockets because they didn't trust the doctors in their single-payer system.

The premiere of BC recently did the same thing -seeking treatment in America because the treatment in Canada is delayed and even when you get it it is generally deficient.

Not to mention taxes in Canada are what, over 50%?

No one has invented the free lunch. No one. I do hear fables of "free health care that is wonderful".

Here's the problem. If and when we join the human race, er, the rest of the industrialized world and institute single payer universal health care, Americans will have to somehow kick their addiction to stupid, ineffective, but very profitable hospital procedures and prescription drug "cures" that we've all been taught we need, especially at the moment of crisis, when there isn't time to stop and say, hey, does this actually work? And, the all important, what are the side effects? Angioplasties, and it's bigger brother, bypasses, will be hard to get, as they should be, because, in the end, they don't work, long term, and I'm talking a year or two. Guess what happens then, after that time period? Yup, more angioplasty/bypass! Are you getting the pattern? Are these people being told, eat better, go take a daily walk, think better thoughts? Of course not. My mom wasn't told that. She was just told, Mrs. Pink, no worries, we do over 220 of these bypasses a year! You're in good hands. Right. The factory, and, trust me, these are factories, need bodies for cash flow. Sounds brutal, but, Porsches and trips to Vail are expensive. So are Dura Ace top of the line carbon bikes, right? In case we have doctors in the house.
Eliminate the profit motive, and less and less of these procedures will be prescribed, as in Canada, France, Scandinavia, Germany, etc.. The brutal truth is that the collective budget can't be wasted on treatments that only eventually benefit the industry, and not the patients. Trust me, the numbers are there. Over half of bypass patients are back in the hospital in a short time, and, it's not as though the process for them is pleasurable. Imagine going under for that once. How about three or four times? It happens a lot. These people aren't springing out of the hospital and doing 40 miles in a week, either.

Don't get me going about the drug industry. Watch daytime TV. I do, I don't work anymore. There are now obese people being used for a lot of these ads. They're huge. Here, take this expensive drug, this will fix your problem. No it won't.

[Bruce K]

We seem to have drifted off the OPs question of if he should drop his health insurance and are venturing into a political debate on health care in general.

This route will probably not end well.....

BK

[Mr. Pink]

Well, he should definitely get insurance, if he doesn't want to die young and poor.

[stackie]

Here's the problem. If and when we join the human race, er, the rest of the industrialized world and institute single payer universal health care, Americans will have to somehow kick their addiction to stupid, ineffective, but very profitable hospital procedures and prescription drug "cures" that we've all been taught we need, especially at the moment of crisis, when there isn't time to stop and say, hey, does this actually work? And, the all important, what are the side effects? Angioplasties, and it's bigger brother, bypasses, will be hard to get, as they should be, because, in the end, they don't work, long term, and I'm talking a year or two. Guess what happens then, after that time period? Yup, more angioplasty/bypass! Are you getting the pattern? Are these people being told, eat better, go take a daily walk, think better thoughts? Of course not. My mom wasn't told that. She was just told, Mrs. Pink, no worries, we do over 220 of these bypasses a year! You're in good hands. Right. The factory, and, trust me, these are factories, need bodies for cash flow. Sounds brutal, but, Porsches and trips to Vail are expensive. So are Dura Ace top of the line carbon bikes, right? In case we have doctors in the house.
Eliminate the profit motive, and less and less of these procedures will be prescribed, as in Canada, France, Scandinavia, Germany, etc.. The brutal truth is that the collective budget can't be wasted on treatments that only eventually benefit the industry, and not the patients. Trust me, the numbers are there. Over half of bypass patients are back in the hospital in a short time, and, it's not as though the process for them is pleasurable. Imagine going under for that once. How about three or four times? It happens a lot. These people aren't springing out of the hospital and doing 40 miles in a week, either.

Don't get me going about the drug industry. Watch daytime TV. I do, I don't work anymore. There are now obese people being used for a lot of these ads. They're huge. Here, take this expensive drug, this will fix your problem. No it won't.

Pink,

I like how you say angioplasties and bypass surgery doesn't work. You say they are back in house for more procedures in a year or two. Simply not true.

OTOH, not doing angioplasty or bypass is quite effective. The patients do not return. They effin die. You want to tell the family that it's sad but grandpa is going to die because he smoked three packs of camels a day for 30 years, ate like ****, and never exercised? I'd love to see your Press-Ganey scores.

No, I'm not a cardiologist. I'm an anesthesiologist which means I get to see all of the travesties of modern medicine with little ability to do a effin thing about it.

You want waste of $$$$? How about fixing demented grandma's hip because no one has the balls to say that grandma's life sucks. None of you grandma's family have visited her in the last ten years because they've been too effin busy asking money trading in Wall Street, coding in Sili Valley, whatever it is they do. Now they are guilty as eff, and say "do everything to keep her alive". I'll tell you what. The best thing you can do for grandma is to let her pass. Morphine drip, baby.

The truth of universal coverage is that we will either ration care or we will be bankrupt. We can't afford for everyone to have liver transplants. Everyone will get an appendectomy when they need it. Or the next day, if you come in after 3pm. But, that expensive treatment. I doubt it. You're just going to die. I'm ok with that, are you?

Right now, we have the best medical care system in the world for those who can afford it. Period. Sure not everyone can afford it. But, then again not everyone can afford the best automobile in the world. It's nice to think/say that medical care is a right. But, when you say that, you'd better be willing to open your wallet to pay for it. It is not your right to demand my time and expertise for nothing. I busted my ass for 4 years college, 4 years medical school, and slaved for 4 years of residency at 100 hours a week for 40,000. I am a damn good doctor because of it. Your life is in my hands. How much is that worth? I seriously ask that. Throw out an hourly rate to keep you alive. More or less than your auto mechanic? Now, it's 3am and you want me to drag my butt out of bed to anesthetize you for your procedure and you want to whine about the cost?

Personsally, I want to save any money that would be spent on extreme measures to save me. Leave it for my kids/grandkids. It will do them and society more good. And yes, I mean society, because don't let anyone fool you. In one way or the other, the rest of society always foots the bill for your medical disaster.

Sorry for the rant. Touching a nerve when people start insinuating the medical system and doctors are the root of all evil in our system. We simply deliver what the Americans public wants/demands. It was a long weekend on call catering to the whims of American society, and now the well deserved bottle of wine is empty. And, yes, I rode my bike today and it was fabulous.

BTW, to the OP. Get insurance. That's the way the system works. We all pay in. To avoid paying and take the risk that nothing will happen simple puts the burden on everyone else if and when something happens to you. That's insurance. I'll let one of our resident insurance experts explain.

Jon

Flame away. I deserve it.

[HenryA]

Pink,

I like how you say angioplasties and bypass surgery doesn't work. You say they are back in house for more procedures in a year or two. Simply not true.

OTOH, not doing angioplasty or bypass is quite effective. The patients do not return. They effin die. You want to tell the family that it's sad but grandpa is going to die because he smoked three packs of camels a day for 30 years, ate like ****, and never exercised? I'd love to see your Press-Ganey scores.

No, I'm not a cardiologist. I'm an anesthesiologist which means I get to see all of the travesties of modern medicine with little ability to do a effin thing about it.

You want waste of $$$$? How about fixing demented grandma's hip because no one has the balls to say that grandma's life sucks. None of you grandma's family have visited her in the last ten years because they've been too effin busy asking money trading in Wall Street, coding in Sili Valley, whatever it is they do. Now they are guilty as eff, and say "do everything to keep her alive". I'll tell you what. The best thing you can do for grandma is to let her pass. Morphine drip, baby.

The truth of universal coverage is that we will either ration care or we will be bankrupt. We can't afford for everyone to have liver transplants. Everyone will get an appendectomy when they need it. Or the next day, if you come in after 3pm. But, that expensive treatment. I doubt it. You're just going to die. I'm ok with that, are you?

Right now, we have the best medical care system in the world for those who can afford it. Period. Sure not everyone can afford it. But, then again not everyone can afford the best automobile in the world. It's nice to think/say that medical care is a right. But, when you say that, you'd better be willing to open your wallet to pay for it. It is not your right to demand my time and expertise for nothing. I busted my ass for 4 years college, 4 years medical school, and slaved for 4 years of residency at 100 hours a week for 40,000. I am a damn good doctor because of it. Your life is in my hands. How much is that worth? I seriously ask that. Throw out an hourly rate to keep you alive. More or less than your auto mechanic? Now, it's 3am and you want me to drag my butt out of bed to anesthetize you for your procedure and you want to whine about the cost?

Personsally, I want to save any money that would be spent on extreme measures to save me. Leave it for my kids/grandkids. It will do them and society more good. And yes, I mean society, because don't let anyone fool you. In one way or the other, the rest of society always foots the bill for your medical disaster.

Sorry for the rant. Touching a nerve when people start insinuating the medical system and doctors are the root of all evil in our system. We simply deliver what the Americans public wants/demands. It was a long weekend on call catering to the whims of American society, and now the well deserved bottle of wine is empty. And, yes, I rode my bike today and it was fabulous.

BTW, to the OP. Get insurance. That's the way the system works. We all pay in. To avoid paying and take the risk that nothing will happen simple puts the burden on everyone else if and when something happens to you. That's insurance. I'll let one of our resident insurance experts explain.

Jon

Flame away. I deserve it.

Excellent!

[shovelhd]

Pink,

I like how you say angioplasties and bypass surgery doesn't work. You say they are back in house for more procedures in a year or two. Simply not true.

OTOH, not doing angioplasty or bypass is quite effective. The patients do not return. They effin die. You want to tell the family that it's sad but grandpa is going to die because he smoked three packs of camels a day for 30 years, ate like ****, and never exercised? I'd love to see your Press-Ganey scores.

No, I'm not a cardiologist. I'm an anesthesiologist which means I get to see all of the travesties of modern medicine with little ability to do a effin thing about it.

You want waste of $$$$? How about fixing demented grandma's hip because no one has the balls to say that grandma's life sucks. None of you grandma's family have visited her in the last ten years because they've been too effin busy asking money trading in Wall Street, coding in Sili Valley, whatever it is they do. Now they are guilty as eff, and say "do everything to keep her alive". I'll tell you what. The best thing you can do for grandma is to let her pass. Morphine drip, baby.

The truth of universal coverage is that we will either ration care or we will be bankrupt. We can't afford for everyone to have liver transplants. Everyone will get an appendectomy when they need it. Or the next day, if you come in after 3pm. But, that expensive treatment. I doubt it. You're just going to die. I'm ok with that, are you?

Right now, we have the best medical care system in the world for those who can afford it. Period. Sure not everyone can afford it. But, then again not everyone can afford the best automobile in the world. It's nice to think/say that medical care is a right. But, when you say that, you'd better be willing to open your wallet to pay for it. It is not your right to demand my time and expertise for nothing. I busted my ass for 4 years college, 4 years medical school, and slaved for 4 years of residency at 100 hours a week for 40,000. I am a damn good doctor because of it. Your life is in my hands. How much is that worth? I seriously ask that. Throw out an hourly rate to keep you alive. More or less than your auto mechanic? Now, it's 3am and you want me to drag my butt out of bed to anesthetize you for your procedure and you want to whine about the cost?

Personsally, I want to save any money that would be spent on extreme measures to save me. Leave it for my kids/grandkids. It will do them and society more good. And yes, I mean society, because don't let anyone fool you. In one way or the other, the rest of society always foots the bill for your medical disaster.

Sorry for the rant. Touching a nerve when people start insinuating the medical system and doctors are the root of all evil in our system. We simply deliver what the Americans public wants/demands. It was a long weekend on call catering to the whims of American society, and now the well deserved bottle of wine is empty. And, yes, I rode my bike today and it was fabulous.

BTW, to the OP. Get insurance. That's the way the system works. We all pay in. To avoid paying and take the risk that nothing will happen simple puts the burden on everyone else if and when something happens to you. That's insurance. I'll let one of our resident insurance experts explain.

Jon

Flame away. I deserve it.

Outstanding rant. Very well put.

[paredown]

The fact that the OP has to consider going without health care is a result of an expensive private system that features more wizbang machinery, high prices, and skewed supply.

To put it in perspective, the US spends 50% more (as a % of GDP) on health care than even the countries with the most expensive universal systems, with better outcomes in only a few areas like cancer, and worse outcomes in many other areas. And the divergence (and extraordinary growth in spending) seems to have happened since the 1980s. (more here: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective)

I have no answers--Canada IME has queuing--my dad was sent home to put his affairs in order at 74 when he was diagnosed with cancer--there was a 6 month wait for diagnosis, and no treatment options available. I spoke with someone I knew at the Hutchinson Cancer center in Seattle--her view was that they would have had him on the operating table that afternoon, with the same diagnosis. National Health when we were in GB was pretty bad--the same queuing, pretty awful facilities--and they were solving the queuing problems by sending people to the Continent for surgery for example. Germany seemed good while we were there, but we did not have much experience with the system.

[Black Dog]

"Working"...lol.

I lived in Canada for 11 years. If you like waiting 3 years for scoliosis surgery when you are in extreme pain and 5 days for an angioplasty (The standard in the US when you present to an ER with his symptoms is treatment within 90 minutes, and the average time for treatment is 63 minutes.) when you have a 90% blockage, single payer is for you.

These things happened to our friends, a married couple. He was on the board of the local hospital and he got the same sh@tty, delayed treatment as everyone else. The only reason he didn't have to wait longer is I called the president of the hospital and told him that they had a looming PR disaster on their hands if my friend died waiting for the angioplasty.

Also, anyone on our block who needed cancer treatments or heart surgery came to the US and paid out of their pockets because they didn't trust the doctors in their single-payer system.

The premiere of BC recently did the same thing -seeking treatment in America because the treatment in Canada is delayed and even when you get it it is generally deficient.

Not to mention taxes in Canada are what, over 50%?

No one has invented the free lunch. No one. I do hear fables of "free health care that is wonderful".

That is not the case for the vast majority of people in Canada. There are far more stories of timely and expert care. I can list as many anecdotes that are on the other end of the spectrum. No one loses their homes when they get sick here. The vast majority of people get good healthcare in a timely manor. Those are the facts, in spite of some cases of slow or poor care. A lot of time and money is being invested to eliminate the very things that you speak of. Perfect, no, as bad as you suggest defiantly not.

[elcolombiano]

The IRS now fines you if you don't have health insurance. Not just a slap on the wrist either, enough in some instances to cover what your insurance premium would have been.

They can only with hold money if they owe you. They can not come collect or fine you by law.

[sitzmark]

They can only with hold money if they owe you. They can not come collect or fine you by law.

If the bottom line on your tax return says you owe, you owe. IRS can fine, and charge interest on balance and fines, and file tax liens, and collect. Want to make your life miserable ... wages garnished, employment affected by tax liens... easier to just move to Canada.

[bigbill]

If the bottom line on your tax return says you owe, you owe. IRS can fine, and charge interest on balance and fines, and file tax liens, and collect. Want to make your life miserable ... wages garnished, employment affected by tax liens... easier to just move to Canada.

Correct. It's a tax and you'll get a coupon to mail in your payment by April 15. Last year I had a few like that and the toughest part is explaining to the person making $20K with three kids that they owe when they normally got a refund.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Correct. It's a tax and you'll get a coupon to mail in your payment by April 15. Last year I had a few like that and the toughest part is explaining to the person making $20K with three kids that they owe when they normally got a refund.

I'm not doubting you, but as a tax accountant I feel confident in saying that what you describe should be exceedingly rare.

[SpokeValley]

Slight drift, but relevant to the subject.

Interesting op-ed in this morning's WSJ, written by Phil Gramm: http://www.wsj.com/articles/where-clinton-will-take-obamacare-1476746073

I believe we're definitely headed toward single payer, I don't think it can be stopped.

The scary part is:

"The stone that slew the HillaryCare Goliath was freedom. Even the Democrat-appointed head of the Congressional Budget Office was forced to conclude that under HillaryCare health-insurance premiums were federal revenues and all health-cooperative expenditures were federal outlays."

If our premiums go into the federal revenues, I suspect that they will diverted to other outlays...take your pick of other wasteful programs.

I could definitely be wrong.

[bigbill]

I'm not doubting you, but as a tax accountant I feel confident in saying that what you describe should be exceedingly rare.

I'm a VITA preparer at United Way, I see and hear everything including "well, my husband is in prison" "what are withholdings?" "that one and that one is mine but I take care of the others while their mom is in jail, can I claim them?"

[ColonelJLloyd]

I'm a VITA preparer at United Way, I see and hear everything including "well, my husband is in prison" "what are withholdings?" "that one and that one is mine but I take care of the others while their mom is in jail, can I claim them?"

Yeah, I get that. I was just thinking that someone with dependents and a 20k AGI would qualify for Medicaid or other qualifying coverage for free or otherwise less than the alternative penalty. Admittedly, I have not looked into this. The lion's share of my clients are relatively wealthy closely-held business owners.

[thwart]

I'm a VITA preparer at United Way, I see and hear everything including "well, my husband is in prison", "what are withholdings?", "that one and that one is mine but I take care of the others while their mom is in jail, can I claim them?"

Good for you! Those folks really need your help.

Volunteers like you deserve kudos from all of us!

The Volunteer Income Tax Assistance (VITA) program offers free tax help to people who generally make $54,000 or less, persons with disabilities and limited English speaking taxpayers who need assistance in preparing their own tax returns. IRS-certified volunteers provide free basic income tax return preparation with electronic filing to qualified individuals.

[redir]

Pink,

I like how you say angioplasties and bypass surgery doesn't work. You say they are back in house for more procedures in a year or two. Simply not true.

OTOH, not doing angioplasty or bypass is quite effective. The patients do not return. They effin die. You want to tell the family that it's sad but grandpa is going to die because he smoked three packs of camels a day for 30 years, ate like ****, and never exercised? I'd love to see your Press-Ganey scores.

No, I'm not a cardiologist. I'm an anesthesiologist which means I get to see all of the travesties of modern medicine with little ability to do a effin thing about it.

You want waste of $$$$? How about fixing demented grandma's hip because no one has the balls to say that grandma's life sucks. None of you grandma's family have visited her in the last ten years because they've been too effin busy asking money trading in Wall Street, coding in Sili Valley, whatever it is they do. Now they are guilty as eff, and say "do everything to keep her alive". I'll tell you what. The best thing you can do for grandma is to let her pass. Morphine drip, baby.

The truth of universal coverage is that we will either ration care or we will be bankrupt. We can't afford for everyone to have liver transplants. Everyone will get an appendectomy when they need it. Or the next day, if you come in after 3pm. But, that expensive treatment. I doubt it. You're just going to die. I'm ok with that, are you?

Right now, we have the best medical care system in the world for those who can afford it. Period. Sure not everyone can afford it. But, then again not everyone can afford the best automobile in the world. It's nice to think/say that medical care is a right. But, when you say that, you'd better be willing to open your wallet to pay for it. It is not your right to demand my time and expertise for nothing. I busted my ass for 4 years college, 4 years medical school, and slaved for 4 years of residency at 100 hours a week for 40,000. I am a damn good doctor because of it. Your life is in my hands. How much is that worth? I seriously ask that. Throw out an hourly rate to keep you alive. More or less than your auto mechanic? Now, it's 3am and you want me to drag my butt out of bed to anesthetize you for your procedure and you want to whine about the cost?

Personsally, I want to save any money that would be spent on extreme measures to save me. Leave it for my kids/grandkids. It will do them and society more good. And yes, I mean society, because don't let anyone fool you. In one way or the other, the rest of society always foots the bill for your medical disaster.

Sorry for the rant. Touching a nerve when people start insinuating the medical system and doctors are the root of all evil in our system. We simply deliver what the Americans public wants/demands. It was a long weekend on call catering to the whims of American society, and now the well deserved bottle of wine is empty. And, yes, I rode my bike today and it was fabulous.

BTW, to the OP. Get insurance. That's the way the system works. We all pay in. To avoid paying and take the risk that nothing will happen simple puts the burden on everyone else if and when something happens to you. That's insurance. I'll let one of our resident insurance experts explain.

Jon

Flame away. I deserve it.

Doctors seems to me are really becoming more of a service then anything else, not unlike a fireman or policeman. We cannot have a functioning society without police just like we cannot have a functioning society without doctors. Yet when most people drive down the street they pass the police station, the rescue squad, the fire department and don't think anything of their hard earned taxes going to those services but when they pass by the hospital they think that if you cannot afford your own way in and out of it then it's tough luck.

Why would they have empathy in their heart for the family who's house is burning down but only contempt for the family who's father contracts cancer and can't afford a good enough insurance coverage for it?

It's always good to hear from a doctor's perspective in discussions like this.