OT: Used electric pianos

[DreaminJohn]

I'm looking to sort of replicate p_nut's guitar thread from this summer, only with electric pianos. :)

My 14-yr old son high-functioning autistic. He learns classical pieces by ear and by watching other play them on Youtube. Currently looking to get him lessons to learn to read music. He already knows how to play all of the chords, just not read them.

He's been playing on a $350ish Yamaha DGX-230 that I got at Costco about 7 yrs ago. It has 76 keys and has served him quite well. It's honestly the only Christmas present he's ever gotten excited about but I think he's ready for the next level and he's already asking if Santa will bring him an 88-key piano. I want electric because he quite often plays harpsichord and organ-type pieces and he enjoys playing around with the sounds a bit. I can get a decent upright for the price of the movers if so desired. O yea, the APPLAUSE track as well.

In any event here are the requirements for the new/used piano I'm seeking:

88 keys
Weighted Keys
at least 2 pedals (3 preferred)
well made/durable (or at least easily serviced)

Budget: $1000

I've been looking at used Yamaha Clavinovas since a family member has one and he really enjoys playing it. I welcome all input.

Thanks so much to everyone.

[AngryScientist]

contact TiDesigns - he'll whip you one right up. very simple machine, anyone can do it:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=98753

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=86929&stc=1&d=1319923551

[DreaminJohn]

I'm at least heartened that he started with a Yamaha. :p

[foo_fighter]

We just ordered a Yamaha P45 but the P115 and this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Williams-Allegro-88-Key-Hammer-Digital/dp/B00VCV22K2/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1476069173&sr=1-1&keywords=williams+allegro+2

was also recommended.

[ultraman6970]

We have a casio privia (cant remember the model), not that expensive and you are asking. 3 pedals... 88 weighted keys and stuff. Not fancy but works fine... usb midi and stuff. I know there's other ones around but sure you dont want to spend a lot of money either. Reviews arent bad and many people liked the sensation of the keys than other pianos in the same range.

[rnhood]

I like the Clavinovas. The Roland RD-700 is another possibility and it should be within your price range.

[Ken Robb]

My wife teaches piano and organ and I know she think highly of the Clavinovas. There may be others she likes. I'll try to remember to ask her tonight.

She is responsible for 3 grand pianos. We own two and our church owns the third. They are tuned every 6 months for $125 each so factor that expense into any analyses of digital vs. acoustic pianos.

[DfCas]

Just don't think that an acoustic and a digital can replace each other. Just as an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar are different, the same is true in pianos.

My high functioning autistic child has sensory perception far greater than I do, and she can percieve differences in touch that I cannot.

I suggest you go to a music store that sells Kawai or Yamaha acoustic pianos and let your son try them. The store will also have digitals and he may prefer one over the other.

Also make sure there is service available for a digital piano. If you live in a large city service should be available. Rural areas usually don't have electric piano service. There may be no replacement parts for electrics after 10 years or so.

[DreaminJohn]

Thanks, guys.

As always I am humbled by the vast array of knowledge here.

This place rocks.

[tv_vt]

I like the Clavinova, too. Have had one for about 20 years.

[lovebird]

My 13 year old son (who is a decently good classical pianist) really likes his Roland RP401R. New, it's a little above your price range (you can find them around $1300-1400 w/bench if you look around), but it's been around for a while so you might be able to turn up a used one.

Terrific sound, good weighted action keys, and all in all a surprisingly good approximation of what a "real" piano looks, feels and sounds like. It's also pretty uncomplicated, but has more than enough voices (including harpsichord, strings, etc.) to keep him busy for a long time.

We've also heard from people who really love their Yamaha Clavinovas. Good luck in your search!

[benb]

That $1000-1500 range seems to be the sweet spot.

I used to have a Kawai (CN24) for a few years. To me the Kawai and Roland models felt most realistic with the Roland sound maybe being the best. Casio next in the cheap price ranges, then Yamaha, the cheap Yamaha's didn't really impress me much. (I had a Yamaha a long time ago too) The Casios feel/felt really light but still had nice control of dynamics.

However if you go up to the crazy price ranges the Yamaha's get really good. You're talking near acoustic piano prices at that point though, and really nothing digital feels as nice as an acoustic if you're really thinking about playing *piano*.

I hurt myself pretty good playing on my Kawai. The feedback and key weighting on most of these digitals is not as good as the real thing IMO. I had a rental acoustic too and the acoustic was way easier on my hands, those hundreds of years of refinement in the acoustic actions is nothing to be laughed at.

Pianos are a PITA for a lot of these reasons. (huge costs, high maintenance on acoustics, can't move them around easily, lots of the digital stuff is not rewarding to play, etc..) Makes me glad I stopped and picked up a guitar instead.

Tons and tons of used stuff out there and digital pianos seem to have terrible resale values so it's easy to get a good deal. Acoustics can be picked up for free in some cases if it's not a really popular brand and you're willing to take a risk on having to pay some maintenance. As soon as you want to buy from a dealer you're going to pay a bunch as they make sure their pianos are in good maintenance. Rental stocks seem to be in worse shape unless you're paying a lot.

[Ti Designs]

Just don't think that an acoustic and a digital can replace each other.

Now they tell me...

I built this thing I call the piano project, it was my attempt to make an electronic piano sound and feel like the real thing. During that time I spent a good amount of time playing real pianos, mostly Steinways and Yamahas. What I learned is that a piano is an impressive instrument, how it makes sound isn't easily duplicated. Let's just put it this way: If you do to a speaker what a piano hammer does to a string, you'll break the speaker. What I learned in the two years it took me to build my piano is about the same as what I've learned in any project - what we do is mostly wrong. I built 5 prototypes before I built my finished piano, the more I learned the more I realized I was never going to build the replacement for a piano. That said, it's not bad...

I tested a number of stage pianos, I've owned a Roland RD300s, A Yamaha CP33, a Yamaha P155, I've spent time playing the CP4 and Korg's "vintage" piano. I kept returning to the CP33, so that's the driver for my piano project. The sample sets that come with most stage pianos are probably tuned for use with a piano amp, so they're somehow too bright and muddy at the same time. I started with Native Instrument's Steinway D sample set, but it turned out that Yamaha has a killer mono sample set which they sent me. There are a number of things that all electronic stage pianos lack. The first is tactile feedback. My piano project has a tactile transducer mounted under the left side of the keyboard to give it some feedback. The other thing is how the sustain pedal works. In most sample sets, they add a sound when you push the pedal - that's not how it works. When it lifts the dampers off the stings it does make a sound, but what you hear is the live soundboard. Push the pedal on a real piano and you know you're sitting in the room with that piano, push down the pedal on an electric piano and it makes a noise... It's not a small difference, my piano project has over 300 watts and three speaker cabinets dedicated to recreating the interaction between the room and the soundboard.

By far the biggest problem I faced was dealing with what's called envelope. The rise time of a note is done with a hammer, it doesn't look like the rest of the wave. Ultra fast rise times with lots of amplitude will get around crossover filters and damage speakers and amps (so far I've blown 27 drivers, and my piano as caught on fire twice) so they compress the output. They can't have the same percussive sound that a piano can make, but they also don't come with a fire extinguisher...

[DreaminJohn]

Wow.


That's pretty much all I got. Great stuff.

Thanks.

[MadRocketSci]

I'd say Yamaha is preferred for pop/rock/jazz and Kawai/Roland for more classical stuff, just based off the pianos they either sample or model. These are a overgeneralizations, as Yamaha has a new sample set based off of their Steinway Model D killing (at least that was their hope) CFX, i guess to address their reputation for having too "bright" vs. "warm" tones. The Kawai digitals are well regarded, and I think the pianos with the GFIII actions are among the best. The Shigeru Kawai grands that they sample from are very nice IMO. That said, I personally hate all digital actions. I have a Kawai hybrid which uses an upright acoustic action without the strings/soundboard, which is tolerable. I'm waiting for a Yamaha AvantGrand (which has a mostly grand action, minus dampers) with the CFX samples. And saving too, because those start costing as much as baby grands. And then maybe an Estonia grand.

Check out the Kawai MP11 i think it is, has a good reputation, kinda portable, and has the GFIII action. If that's too much you can look for a used MP10, which i think has the same action.

Working on Sheherazade and Rhapsody on a theme by Paganini. The nice thing about digitals is you can play a 2 piano/4 hand piece by recording one part and playing over it.

[Ken Robb]

My wife teaches piano and organ and I know she think highly of the Clavinovas. There may be others she likes. I'll try to remember to ask her tonight.

She is responsible for 3 grand pianos. We own two and our church owns the third. They are tuned every 6 months for $125 each so factor that expense into any analyses of digital vs. acoustic pianos.

This is Leslie, Ken's wife, writing:

I have a high-end Clavinova that I use with our school choirs and have been very happy with it, though I definitely prefer acoustic grands. :)
I agree with those who recommend going to a music store and having your son try several pianos. I'd suggest meeting with the piano salesperson at the store first to identify prospective pianos in your budget range, and then let your son try those that would be feasible for you to buy to see which one appeals to him most. Yamaha makes outstanding digital pianos with excellent weighted actions, and those would provide the variety of sounds your son wants. If you are interested in acquiring a used digital piano, let your local piano dealer know so they can inform you when they get a trade in. Your local piano teachers' association may have "for sale" listings in their newsletter/website that might include good digitals as well.

[weisan]

This is Leslie, Ken's wife, writing:

I have a high-end Clavinova that I use with our school choirs and have been very happy with it, though I definitely prefer acoustic grands. :)
I agree with those who recommend going to a music store and having your son try several pianos. I'd suggest meeting with the piano salesperson at the store first to identify prospective pianos in your budget range, and then let your son try those that would be feasible for you to buy to see which one appeals to him most. Yamaha makes outstanding digital pianos with excellent weighted actions, and those would provide the variety of sounds your son wants. If you are interested in acquiring a used digital piano, let your local piano dealer know so they can inform you when they get a trade in. Your local piano teachers' association may have "for sale" listings in their newsletter/website that might include good digitals as well.

Thank you Leslie pal, it's really quite delightful to have you chimed in on this thread.

[hairylegs]

TiDesigns - that is such a cool setup! What are you using to direct signal to all those different speakers? We can definitely agree on samples...although the new spectrasonics keyscape has about the best sampled piano I've ever heard.

$400 - keyscapes (assuming you've got a laptop you can run it on)
$500 - Akai MPK-88
$100 - budget studio speakers (perhaps Mackie or Alesis)

Just my 2 cents!

[Ti Designs]

TiDesigns - that is such a cool setup! What are you using to direct signal to all those different speakers? We can definitely agree on samples...although the new spectrasonics keyscape has about the best sampled piano I've ever heard.

My first attempt was sending an uncompressed signal to active crossovers. 6 out of the 7 drivers died in the first few minutes... Now to limit which signal gets sent to which driver I use MIDI data (octave range) as well as active crossovers. The front row of four speakers plus the subwoofer (big black box under the piano) and the tactile transducer produce the sampled sound. The three rear speakers produce the harmonics plus the return from the piano case. The mic hanging above feeds a reverb, that signal is split and sent to three delays. In playing with delay times I came up with 4 feet, 8 feet and 16 feet, which just happens to be the distance from the soundboard to the back of the case, and back to the ears of the person playing, on a concert grand. Even the shape worked it's way to that of a baby grand...

[DfCas]

I got my SIL a used kawai acoustic piano last year for $700. She hates digitals and loves the Kawai.

As far as tuning frequency, there is a company named Dampp Chaser that makes climate control systems for acoustic pianos. I have not tuned our piano for 2 years, but we have a humidifier on our furnace and use air conditioning and also have have the dehumidifier part of a dampp chaser in the piano.

Also, the lady won't pay me to tune her piano.

Of course all of this is meaningless if you get a digital.

[MadRocketSci]

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2167459/Comparison_of_Portable_Digital.html#Post2167459

Bike nerds, piano nerds, whatever nerds... We're all the same. 16 pages of opinion.

[72gmc]

I don't play, but this thread makes me want to start. Ken, can Leslie also answer questions about old truck maintenance?

[Ken Robb]

I don't play, but this thread makes me want to start. Ken, can Leslie also answer questions about old truck maintenance?

No but she is pretty good at old husband maintenance. Lucky for me. ;)

[DreaminJohn]

Thank you Leslie pal, it's really quite delightful to have you chimed in on this thread.

Sorry it took me so long to respond, but my sincere thanks as well.

While I'm not averse to the idea of letting him try some pianos out in the store, it kinda kills the "Santa will bring it" idea. One of those occasional positives you run across with a special needs child - he still believes at age 14. :cool:

[unterhausen]

we have a Yamaha something or other weighted 88 key piano and it's wonderful to play. My wife and daughter were somewhat hostile towards the idea, and when her aunt died we inherited an upright piano. Now we're trying to get rid of the upright, it was always a silly idea. I need to take up playing again or we'll be getting rid of the Yamaha too. My MIL had a wonderful upright Yamaha. I'm glad we didn't end up with that.

[benb]

Ti Designs - you've posted about this before, what's driving your e-piano, is that a PC and you're running one of the virtual piano packages? Or is it your own hardware/software creation?

It's a cool project.. I guess the really hard thing is speakers don't really produce sound the same way strings do, though a soundboard is a lot closer.

Digital pianos are neat project in and of themselves and if you're an already an accomplished player maybe no big deal, as a beginner I found mine ultra distracting what with all the differences in feel and volume, etc.. when I would go to lessons. I'm finding guitar way slower going than Piano but if and when I decide to do lessons I'll be happy to play the same guitar at home and at lessons.

[Ti Designs]

Ti Designs - you've posted about this before, what's driving your e-piano, is that a PC and you're running one of the virtual piano packages? Or is it your own hardware/software creation?

It's a Mac Mini running Native Instruments driver but a Yamaha sample set in mono. It uses a Focusrite 6i6 to split the signal based on midi key position, then active crossovers to sort out the drivers.

It's a cool project.. I guess the really hard thing is speakers don't really produce sound the same way strings do, though a soundboard is a lot closer.

The soundboard is really what you hear, the strings don't sound like any piano you've ever heard. The first two prototypes were sound boards with tactile transducers, they turned complex waves into mud. The third prototype (seen in the picture at the beginning of this thread) was just a set of speakers - not even close to being right. By the 4th prototype I figured out that it really was an experiment, and that all of the speakers needed to be movable. The 5th prototype is where I started doing the math, so the speaker cabinets jumped up in size and construction was much better, and the second row of speakers was added because sound takes time to get to the back of a 9' piano. The voice coils of all the drivers are at the same level, so if you're listening from directly above (which is where the sampling mic is) it sound right, plus or minus a little comb filtering...



Digital pianos are neat project in and of themselves and if you're an already an accomplished player maybe no big deal, as a beginner I found mine ultra distracting what with all the differences in feel and volume, etc...

They recently put 60 pianos out on the streets of Boston which said "Play me I'm yours" in big, bold letters. I made it a point to ride from piano to piano, playing each one I found. It's really hard to go from the piano project to an old upright that's been left out in the rain for a week...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IiAvEuHUkA


It reminded me of Josh Bell playing violin in the DC subway and nobody stopping to listen, 'cept that Josh Bell is really good, and I'm not. The trick with playing street piano is finding something that people know. I managed to get most of the passengers of a Duck Tour boat to sing along to Piano Man... The most disappointing thing I found was that people who say they play don't actually come out and play. They did the street piano thing three years ago, I was frustrated that nobody would stop and listen, so this time I lined up a dozen other people who play to gang up on the pianos and make a show of it. When it came time to go play, none of them did...

[Ken Robb]

Sorry it took me so long to respond, but my sincere thanks as well.

While I'm not averse to the idea of letting him try some pianos out in the store, it kinda kills the "Santa will bring it" idea. One of those occasional positives you run across with a special needs child - he still believes at age 14. :cool:

Plenty of kids get/got to try all kinds of toys, trains, etc. in stores and told to see if Santa brings their favorite on Xmas. There's a real downer when Santa brings an expensive gift that they don't love. You can arrange a code with the piano store (wink) to let them know which one you will buy after the kid leaves the store. I'm thinking how easy this would be at Greene Music in San Diego and hoping you have such a wonderful store and staff in your area.

[Ti Designs]

While I'm not averse to the idea of letting him try some pianos out in the store, it kinda kills the "Santa will bring it" idea. One of those occasional positives you run across with a special needs child - he still believes at age 14. :cool:

Wait, what are you saying???

[Louis]

Wait, what are you saying???

http://www.pathfindersforautism.org/articles/view/is_santa_real_

Edit - sorry to break it to you like this Ed.

[Ti Designs]

http://www.pathfindersforautism.org/articles/view/is_santa_real_

Edit - sorry to break it to you like this Ed.


Oh great, the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny too - did everybody else here know???

[DreaminJohn]

I'm thinking how easy this would be at Greene Music in San Diego and hoping you have such a wonderful store and staff in your area.

I just Googled them. Even the website is impressive. I've searched fairly extensively and I can't find anything close. One of the several I've called actually begged me not to get him a digital, saying "it's half toy and half instrument.....your son's musical future is at stake..."

Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

[Ken Robb]

Some folks here recommended Rolands and COSTCO is offering their RP-500 for $1,200 delivered with a bench included. I don't know anything about them.