Changes at November Cycling--indicative of future trends?

[exapkib]

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2016/10/6/beyond-carbon.html

I've always enjoyed the candor and transparency with which the folks at November address issues in their business. The link above talks about their upcoming move away from carbon rims, and is an interesting one.

I'd love to hear reactions and responses from those of you who are also involved in this part of the cycling business--both from the business side and the consumers' side.

[MattTuck]

Very profound. :p


I work on a class called Global Strategy & Implementation. One of the case studies in the class looks at moving manufacturing to Asia, and has the students do an analysis of cost which shows that there is a bit of money to be made by moving production. So they all come into class ready to move production. Then they start thinking about the costs that don't show up in the product economics analysis. Things like coordination costs, trips to the factory, QA issues, time lost in waiting for samples, etc.

Their talk about insurance costs is just another one of these costs that doesn't get factored in when the initial analysis is done.

We had a CEO from a toy company (won't say which one) speak in class, and he talked quite a bit about the risks of manufacturing in Asia (China in particular), and was working toward bringing production back to the US for US sold products, and using their Asian production just to sell into the Asian markets.

As far as the merits of carbon, I don't think it is a surprise to anyone here that the benefits are hyped. It may be a bit of sour grapes, in the sense that they couldn't get their supply chain issues sorted out, but it isn't factually wrong.

I'll continue to ride my HED Belgiums... and the next wheels I get will probably be Pacenti rims. As they say, I am not riding the Worlds TT.

[jtbadge]

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/featured-build/

Anybody using these Easton R90 SL rims? Looking for a lightweight, wide, rim brake, tubeless rim. Have HED Belgium+ but wouldn't hate to save a few ducats.

[djdj]

Perhaps they had too many claims from customers. Or maybe they are gently hyping their new aluminum rims. Either way, I hope they are successful. They seem like a decent company.

[chiasticon]

As far as the merits of carbon, I don't think it is a surprise to anyone here that the benefits are hyped. It may be a bit of sour grapes, in the sense that they couldn't get their supply chain issues sorted out, but it isn't factually wrong.they were part of that hype though. they even went so far as to test and prove how fast their wheels are against the competition; a very expensive thing for such a small company. now they're backing off that because they couldn't make it work.

I owned a set of November carbon wheels (Rails) briefly and they were probably the worst built wheels I've ever owned. have a friend that bought some at the same time, same experience: out of true out of the box, spokes drastically slacker than others, clearly not stressed as evidenced by lots of banging and creaking when ridden, etc. once I trued them a few times and broke them in, they were fine (same for my friend). but until then, it was just emails back and forth to November, with them stating over and over again how great their wheel builds are, while my experience didn't show that at all. so, them now running under the guise of "we build great wheels so let's just do that instead of making rims too" strikes me as pretty funny.

[RobJ]

I know of these guys tangentially since they are local and fellow riders/racers. I had a set of Rails and my experience differed greatly from above. However they aren't abandoning the carbon wheel market. They have their new Range disc wheels.

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/range/

But yes the apparent switch and just being wheel builders is interesting.

[sandyrs]

I know of these guys tangentially since they are local and fellow riders/racers. I had a set of Rails and my experience differed greatly from above. However they aren't abandoning the carbon wheel market. They have their new Range disc wheels.

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/range/

But yes the apparent switch and just being wheel builders is interesting.

The Range is sold out and I thought the post above explicitly said they are ceasing all carbon rim production.

[MattTuck]

I have no experience with them, so my comments were only meant to be in general; that there can be real costs to utilizing off shore manufacturing. I can't say whether that is 100% of the reason for their particular decision. It may just be spin they are using to justify their decision.

Other than my brake levers, I don't think I own any carbon. I've just never seen the benefit for the type/level of riding that I do.

[Waldo]

I have two sets of their "featured wheels" that have Pacenti rims laced to WI-built, November-branded hubs. The wheels have remained straight over several months of riding. However, one front wheel has developed a ping/knock that I haven't investigated yet. Also, I am not a fan of Pacenti's very narrow brake track. I've had to install Shimano brake pads/holders to my Campy brakes, as the rims' brake track is too narrow for Campy pads. Dumb design or a design mistake.

[54ny77]

i have a hard time believing that all these resellers "design" their innovative products. more like they pick a la carte from what the asian manufacturers come up with on their own (or copy!), and slap their logo on 'em.

but hey, i'm just being cynical.

[joosttx]

my take is the company expertise are not in supply chain. Even a small company like theirs could simply address and overcome the obstacles presented in their blog post if they were good (not great) supply chain. I hope no one reads their blog as an indictment of outsourcing carbon wheels technology but reads it as an omission of lacking the skills to bring to market internationally sourced products of consistent quality.

[sandyrs]

i have a hard time believing that all these resellers "design" their innovative products. more like they pick a la carte from what the asian manufacturers come up with on their own (or copy!), and slap their logo on 'em.

but hey, i'm just being cynical.

No, November did in fact design its most recent carbon rims (the Range and Rail). That's one of the things that differentiated them from the other "resellers."

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2016/10/6/beyond-carbon.html

I've always enjoyed the candor and transparency with which the folks at November address issues in their business. The link above talks about their upcoming move away from carbon rims, and is an interesting one.

I'd love to hear reactions and responses from those of you who are also involved in this part of the cycling business--both from the business side and the consumers' side.

Interesting that the majority of rims I saw, were all in Asia. I guess they are comfy with other companies taking care of QC...Kinlin, HED, etc. Also another place that sells with the margin of the parts, not any $ for labor..WI hubs, Kinlin rims....$665..about the msrp of parts.

[Climb01742]

I've also enjoyed reading the posts by November over the months. I like their attitude and vibe. That said, in the same niche, Boyd wheels seem to have a better reputation and it looks like Boyd may have a better handle on their suppliers. The price points both of these companies hit are attractive. I sure hope one of them finds a business model that works and can, over time, execute high quality builds.

[berserk87]

Why don't they compromise and do the carbon-faring thing, like Mavic does with the entry-level Carbones? I mean an aluminum rim with a carbon (non-structural) faring.

HED has produced this type of wheel. Zipp has options for aluminum braking surfaces with carbon glued to it (I am not sure if the carbon is structural on these) like the 404 and the Zipp 60, for example.

It would allow for a likely cheaper wheel option, with less exposure to liability due the carbon element not being as crucial to the build. It would also allow them to stay in the deep-section wheel market. Sort of.

[chiasticon]

I've also enjoyed reading the posts by November over the months. I like their attitude and vibe. That said, in the same niche, Boyd wheels seem to have a better reputation and it looks like Boyd may have a better handle on their suppliers. The price points both of these companies hit are attractive. I sure hope one of them finds a business model that works and can, over time, execute high quality builds.Boyd wheels have been incredible for me. very very solid builds. I've beat the hell out of an aluminum set for about 4 years now and they're still perfect. currently racing a carbon tubular set and they're awesome. Boyd does very good builds with very good products and has incredible customer service. November actually took a shot at him recently for offering the WI T11's at an up-charge, claiming they offer a superior product (personally I'd pay more for inferior parts and a quality Boyd build versus theirs any day though). then they come out a few weeks later and go "yeah...uh, we can't make this work..." Boyd's been making it work for years.

[bigbill]

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/featured-build/

Anybody using these Easton R90 SL rims? Looking for a lightweight, wide, rim brake, tubeless rim. Have HED Belgium+ but wouldn't hate to save a few ducats.

I've got a rear R90 SL wheel 32X3 with a record hub. It replaced a Pacenti SL23 V1 that cracked. Very nice rim. A little taller and wider than a SL23.

[phutterman]

Why don't they compromise and do the carbon-faring thing, like Mavic does with the entry-level Carbones? I mean an aluminum rim with a carbon (non-structural) faring.

HED has produced this type of wheel. Zipp has options for aluminum braking surfaces with carbon glued to it (I am not sure if the carbon is structural on these) like the 404 and the Zipp 60, for example.

It would allow for a likely cheaper wheel option, with less exposure to liability due the carbon element not being as crucial to the build. It would also allow them to stay in the deep-section wheel market. Sort of.

I kind of wonder why there aren't more wheels like that, though as a small company getting others to build rims for them it seems challenging at best. But in general, it seems to me like a good way to go that gets you a lot of the benefits of both (other than aesthetically, but new brake tracks like Hed's 'black' line and Exalith make it less noticeable). Hed Jet 6s are about the same weight as regular (non NSW) Zipp 404 clinchers in all-carbon, for instance, so they don't *have* to be super heavy, though most of the carbon/alloy options are, though I'd guess that's because that's considered and developed as a lower-end product now.

[berserk87]

I kind of wonder why there aren't more wheels like that, though as a small company getting others to build rims for them it seems challenging at best. But in general, it seems to me like a good way to go that gets you a lot of the benefits of both (other than aesthetically, but new brake tracks like Hed's 'black' line and Exalith make it less noticeable). Hed Jet 6s are about the same weight as regular (non NSW) Zipp 404 clinchers in all-carbon, for instance, so they don't *have* to be super heavy, though most of the carbon/alloy options are, though I'd guess that's because that's considered and developed as a lower-end product now.

Yeah, I was thinking about this on my ride today and it might be a logistical nightmare for November. If they make their aluminum rims in the US (may or may not be true - I don't know) and get their carbon from Asia, where do the two meet for assembly?

I own several individual wheels and sets that are the aluminum/carbon mashup. I have only one set that has a carbon brake surface. I don't perceive any difference because of that, other than the aluminum surfaces brake a lot better in wet weather.

[lookout2015]

http://www.novemberbicycles.com/featured-build/

Anybody using these Easton R90 SL rims? Looking for a lightweight, wide, rim brake, tubeless rim. Have HED Belgium+ but wouldn't hate to save a few ducats.

I've been riding on a set for about 2 months. No complaints so far but not a ton of mileage either

[carpediemracing]

Friend of mine (American, white, like he grew up on football and stuff) lives in Taiwan and has done something like "factory oversight for US companies" for something like 15 or 20 years. He's familiar with the HED factory, also with a bunch of others. He vets the factories and then checks them once they're up and running. He says he's been able to stay gainfully employed because he's familiar with how things work there, at least he is now. He said there are some places he would never trust, others that are great.

He vetted some factories for some large, well know manufacturers based in the US (meaning the companies, obviously not production). Country of origin is definitely not even a thought for customers of those countries, i.e. the quality is superb.

I think for a smaller company it might be hard to keep tabs on a company on the other side of the world. My friend lives in Taiwan but works for the US company - he's there full time to make sure things don't go pear shaped. November I don't imagine has that kind of size.