The future of electronic?

[thunderworks]

I'm considering a new bike and am intrigued by SRAM ETap. I have SRAM double tap on all my bikes (most of them anyway), and unlike many around here, don't have issues with their performance, durability etc.

I've not ridden or played with the ETap stuff. My question is whether there is any consensus or expectation that either Shimano or Campy are moving towards wireless systems. Is that the presumed endgame for electronic shifting?

[unterhausen]

from what I observe at my LBS, the cables are the weakness of the Shimano system. Last time I was there, they had some special box in to troubleshoot a couple of bikes that resisted normal troubleshooting. So I feel like my desire for wireless has been vindicated. Don't know if Shimano or Campagnolo has anyone that feels the same way about it though.

[ldamelio]

I think it has to be the presumed endgame. Easy to set up, no frame standards/drilling/braze ons needed, etc. The only question is when Shimano and Campy have market-ready wireless. I'm guessing between 1 and 3 years, but 'guessing' is the key word here. I also expect trickle down to Force, Ultegra, etc. level wireless eventually. Ten years from now, we'll look at cables/wires for shifting like we currently look at down tube shifters. Evolution is inevitable. Doesn't mean I need it/want it at this point, but it will become the default.

[oldpotatoe]

from what I observe at my LBS, the cables are the weakness of the Shimano system. Last time I was there, they had some special box in to troubleshoot a couple of bikes that resisted normal troubleshooting. So I feel like my desire for wireless has been vindicated. Don't know if Shimano or Campagnolo has anyone that feels the same way about it though.

That may or may not be a connector/wire issue. One battery and some wires don't automatically make the system error prone, IMHO. The processor can go south, with any electronic shifting system. I think shimano will be moving to a semi wireless system, ala FSA, with one battery hard wired to the rear derailleur, a 'smart' front der like XTR...one lever with one additional battery.

BUT IME, wires were seldom an issue with Campag or shimano electronic. Most common issue was with front der.

[Joxster]

I spoke to the Shimano tech guy here in the UK and he said that there were no plans for Shimano to become fully wireless in the foreseeable future.

[oldpotatoe]

I spoke to the Shimano tech guy here in the UK and he said that there were no plans for Shimano to become fully wireless in the foreseeable future.

Same for the gents at Campag NA..they just don't see issues with the big boy pros with the stuff now. Wireless is easier to install(funny that a lot of those same bikes will have internal disc brake lines..a gen-u-ine PITA) and maybe cheaper for a frame builder but vast, vast majority of frames come plumbed for electronic or mechanical. The biggest percentage of bikes sold today and tomorrow are mechanical shifting. Asthetics aside(small issue for me, IMHO-blah), wireless really solves no problem, answers no question..

Electronic is a small percentage of bikes sold, regardless of what you see in the pro peloton.

[chiasticon]

Ten years from now, we'll look at cables/wires for shifting like we currently look at down tube shifters. Evolution is inevitable. Doesn't mean I need it/want it at this point, but it will become the default.this is my opinion as well. think mechanical will still be the most prevalent though, at least until the costs are roughly the same. it may even be that in five or so years, we're looking at three versions of ultegra (for example): mech, wired, wireless. with respective increases in price between the three...

I spoke to the Shimano tech guy here in the UK and he said that there were no plans for Shimano to become fully wireless in the foreseeable future.but... why in the hell would he tell you if it was? they literally just released a new generation of DA electronic. think he'd work there long if he started telling people "yeah, we're working on wireless right now"? it's like an Apple engineer giving you details on the iPhone 8 right now.

[Highpowernut]

I for one would love wireless, seams just like where it should go. I might switch to sram to try etap . I'm on DA 9000 and would like electric but don't want the wires.

[shovelhd]

I don't get the hate for wires. It's pretty easy to bury the Di2 front junction so that the only exposed wires are at the derailleurs. ETap is a solution looking for a problem.

[KonaSS]

I don't get the hate for wires. It's pretty easy to bury the Di2 front junction so that the only exposed wires are at the derailleurs. ETap is a solution looking for a problem.

Seriously?

[berserk87]

Seriously?

I am never going to have to carry my shift/brake levers 20 feet away from my bike to my couch...

[Highpowernut]

Where would one hide the wires on a ti frame?
I can't find a place, don't want a big battery hanging out either, so hard to do a retro mod with the legend.

[djg21]

I spoke to the Shimano tech guy here in the UK and he said that there were no plans for Shimano to become fully wireless in the foreseeable future.

I think one of the biggest impediments at this point is that SRAM likely has patents on the use of wireless technology that could pose a barrier to Shimano's and Campy's entry into the market. But insdustry reports suggest that Campy is working on wireless: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/campagolo-wireless-groupset-224084

[SoCalSteve]

I don't get the hate for wires. It's pretty easy to bury the Di2 front junction so that the only exposed wires are at the derailleurs. ETap is a solution looking for a problem.

Just curious as to where you can bury the front junction connector and still have access to it to charge the battery and do updates?

[notsew]

I get that people think wired is fine or mechanical is fine (an I see no reason to move past mechanical), but I find it hard to imagine that wireless isn't the future.

To say it solves no problems, well I don't know about that. It solves the problem by selling more units with yet another technology shift. Plus, its just cleaner and better. Why have a wire if you don't need it? I don't get it. Why would they just leave it at wired electronics? Everything is wireless now, phones, speakers, computers, etc., etc., etc.

[tumbler]

I get that people think wired is fine or mechanical is fine (an I see no reason to move past mechanical), but I find it hard to imagine that wireless isn't the future.

To say it solves no problems, well I don't know about that. It solves the problem by selling more units with yet another technology shift. Plus, its just cleaner and better. Why have a wire if you don't need it? I don't get it. Why would they just leave it at wired electronics? Everything is wireless now, phones, speakers, computers, etc., etc., etc.

+1. I can't imagine that Shimano and Campagnolo aren't thinking seriously about wireless. The question of whether we need wireless is as pointless as the question of whether we need paddle shifters in SUVs. For 99.9% of consumers, the answer is obviously no. But manufacturers are focused on a different question entirely: Will people buy this if we make it?

[Idris Icabod]

I think one of the biggest impediments at this point is that SRAM likely has patents on the use of wireless technology that could pose a barrier to Shimano's and Campy's entry into the market. But insdustry reports suggest that Campy is working on wireless: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/campagolo-wireless-groupset-224084

I had a quick look at the SRAM patent application. The US patent has not issued yet and some of the claims are under a non-final rejection based on obviousness based on adding a power source to the rear derailleur. It looks like the examiner is relying on a Campagnolo patent and some patents from some Japanese authors (Shimano?, I didn't pull the assignee).

[djg21]

I had a quick look at the SRAM patent application. The US patent has not issued yet and some of the claims are under a non-final rejection based on obviousness based on adding a power source to the rear derailleur. It looks like the examiner is relying on a Campagnolo patent and some patents from some Japanese authors (Shimano?, I didn't pull the assignee).

I saw this: https://bikeip.com/2015/04/29/new-details-about-srams-etap-wireless-rear-derailleur/

Apart from this issue, I hadn't known of website before and it looks interesting.

[chiasticon]

I don't get it. Why would they just leave it at wired electronics? Everything is wireless now, phones, speakers, computers, etc., etc., etc.exactly. there are currently six smartphones that can charge wirelessly. which is an experience that directly mimics leaving a charging cable plugged into a wall, and only saves you having to physically plug a cable into your phone. why? because they can. those smartphones sell. and some people actually won't buy a phone without that feature. wireless shifting will sell too.

[oldpotatoe]

I get that people think wired is fine or mechanical is fine (an I see no reason to move past mechanical), but I find it hard to imagine that wireless isn't the future.

To say it solves no problems, well I don't know about that. It solves the problem by selling more units with yet another technology shift. Plus, its just cleaner and better. Why have a wire if you don't need it? I don't get it. Why would they just leave it at wired electronics? Everything is wireless now, phones, speakers, computers, etc., etc., etc.

Why have 4 batteries when you can have none?

This horse is about dead but trade one battery for 4...'better' is pretty subjective. Better/easier to install. 2 shifters to shift one Der isn't better, IMHO

Not saying harder but certainly not easier.

OBTW, my wireless mouse and keyboard were such collasal POS went back to wires and on high end audio? How many speakers are wireless?

[fthefox]

My fear with electronic shifting is not being able to trouble shoot problems and having to go to a LBS. Not really sure I have the technical knowledge to deal with electronic shifting. How much an hour will a LBS charge?

[Joxster]

My fear with electronic shifting is not being able to trouble shoot problems and having to go to a LBS. Not really sure I have the technical knowledge to deal with electronic shifting. How much an hour will a LBS charge?

I can fix all your problems for Five Grand

[ColonelJLloyd]

Why have 4 batteries when you can have none?

This horse is about dead but trade one battery for 4...'better' is pretty subjective. Better/easier to install. 2 shifters to shift one Der isn't better, IMHO

Not saying harder but certainly not easier.

OBTW, my wireless mouse and keyboard were such collasal POS went back to wires and on high end audio? How many speakers are wireless?

That's just your anecdotal evidence. I've been using wireless mice and keyboards for 10 years. The handful of hiccups during that time. . . . 100% worth having no wires.

There are amazing speakers that require only a power source wire. Others that are truly wireless (rechargeable) are plenty I'm sure. What, Bose isn't good enough for you?

Of course this is all subjective and no one needs any of it beyond a front brake equipped, TIG welded fixed gear. Methinks SRAM haters are a little butt-hurt that the companies they are fan-boys of have been leap-frogged by the brand they love to hate. No one seriously thinks Campy and Shimano aren't working to one-up SRAM on this or any other tech.

Some people take this component maker brand loyalty a little too seriously. I understand having the familiarity and being ingrained in one brand for decades. But, c'mon, it's just a bicycle component.

Unless we find that eTap is woefully problematic, the argument of "so what? The wires on my current e-group is fine" doesn't hold water. All things equal, wireless > wires.

I don't have plans for an eTap build right now, but I am pretty excited about riding a friend's eTap equipped ride once finished. I ride with no shifters, DT shifters, integrated shifters. . . . .variety is nice.

[tommyrod74]

What, Bose isn't good enough for you?



Popcorn ready.

[chiasticon]

Why have 4 batteries when you can have none?

This horse is about dead but trade one battery for 4...'better' is pretty subjective. Better/easier to install. 2 shifters to shift one Der isn't better, IMHOwell, the question isn't if you think eTap is THE solution, but whether you think wireless is where electronic will go. it's clear (and fair) you hate Sram and think eTap is stupid. but if Campy came out with an EPS system that was wireless and everything else was equal, what would you say?

OBTW, my wireless mouse and keyboard were such collasal POS went back to wires and on high end audio? How many speakers are wireless?you should give it another whirl. I've got cheap-ish Logitech bluetooth keyboard and mouse at work. both have been flawless for 5+ years so far and in general I get about six months of life from 2 AA batteries for each device. that's with a 40+ hour work week. far from "colossal POS" is all I'm saying.

and yeah, there's tons of wireless audio. use it in my car, office, home and on the bike almost every day.

[rePhil]

My IMac Trackpad and keyboard work nice. And no way could I give up my wireless TV remote. And to think I once had to get up to turn the channel.

Saying that, my bikes are all cables.

[notsew]

FWIW, I honestly don't really see the advantage of electronic over mechanical.

But, if one believes that electronic is superior, its seems incongruous to argue that wired is the technological apex. Wired electronics seem like a weigh station on the road to wireless.

I mean if you're running EPS or Di2 now, you wouldn't buy a wireless version?

[Mark McM]

Why have 4 batteries when you can have none?

Don't you mean 4 batteries instead of 1?



This horse is about dead but trade one battery for 4...'better' is pretty subjective. Better/easier to install. 2 shifters to shift one Der isn't better, IMHO

Do you have cycle-computers on any of your bikes? Are any of them wireless?

Did you ditch the wireless key fob that came with your car, and only lock and unlock it with a key?

Do you still only use land-line telephones, and get up and walk to the television to change channels?

Of course, wireless shifting has already left the barn, after Mavic introduced their wireless Zap electronic shifting in the previous century (1999).

[thirdgenbird]

There are some poor analogies happening here. You really can't equate the benefit of wireless shifting to things like key fobs, phones, remotes, and mice. These items all move independently from their corresponding device as a part of their core function. Shifters and derailleurs are physically bolted to the bike. Cutting cords doesn't manner much when there is another more critical physical connection.

I am not anti-wireless shifting because it has benefits like retrofitting onto older frames but as a whole, it is a different application than most wireless devices. It's more like retrofitting a wireless doorbell where there wasn't one. The install is a whole lot easier but after it's bolted in place, the benefit disappears until you move and take it with you.


As a side note: key fob buttons are being replaced by door mounted (and wired) unlock buttons/sensors. Totally different tool and application than bicycle shifters. Proof wireless tech works but not proof all tech should be wireless.

[54ny77]

"Wireless, son."

https://theconvertingcurmudgeon.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/dustin-hoffman-plastics-advice.jpg?w=640

:bike:

[Mark McM]

There are some poor analogies happening here. You really can't equate the benefit of wireless shifting to things like key fobs, phones, remotes, and mice. These items all move independently from their corresponding device as a part of their core function. Shifters and derailleurs are physically bolted to the bike. Cutting cords doesn't manner much when there is another more critical physical connection.

Okay, but what about very close analogies, like cycling computers and power meters? All these have sensors physically mounted to the frame and control units mounted to the handlebars, just like electronic shifters. These started out with wired units, but have largely moved to wireless, because there are very distinct advantages to wireless.

[chiasticon]

There are some poor analogies happening here. You really can't equate the benefit of wireless shifting to things like key fobs, phones, remotes, and mice. These items all move independently from their corresponding device as a part of their core function. Shifters and derailleurs are physically bolted to the bike. Cutting cords doesn't manner much when there is another more critical physical connection.fair enough. but the point was more that all these things are commonplace these days, because the technology is proven and cheap enough. as wireless shifting moves more and more into that end of the spectrum, then it will be more commonplace as well. I doubt it will ever supersede mechanical, however.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Okay, but what about very close analogies, like cycling computers and power meters?

Hush it! Because. . . . . Campagnolo, ya little smartass!

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/grumpy-old-man-19577484.jpg

[54ny77]

i'll bet as younger crews migrate to senior & leadership positions within the bike companies, more & more stuff will get electronic.

[thirdgenbird]

Okay, but what about very close analogies, like cycling computers and power meters? All these have sensors physically mounted to the frame and control units mounted to the handlebars, just like electronic shifters. These started out with wired units, but have largely moved to wireless, because there are very distinct advantages to wireless.

Power meters are typically on something like a crank that rotates. Wireless is probably easier and more reliable in this application. In the case of a hub, it simplifies the common task of wheel removal.

Computers is a great conversation. Personally, I think I would prefer a wired unit so long as the frame is plumbed for it. I think wireless computers were more a function of poor external routing than it was about making a computer work better. Wireless chainstays sensors are large and bulky. Some manufactures have hidden them in the frame, but the same could have been done with a wired sensor but it wasn't. We do have good internal solutions for electronic shifting.

The other difference is that I use one computer for all three of my bikes. It isn't normal to only have one pair of shifters and derailleurs that you move between bikes. The physical connection is more permanent with shifters. You could move shifters between bikes but you are still physically tied by brake hoses/wires. You can also move derailleurs but that means adjustments and breaking chains. My computer twists off in a second without tools.

[Ti Designs]

Reliability = 1/complexity

Bikes are, or at least should be, simple devices. Machines don't get much simpler than a track bike - single speed chain drive. There's nothing there that just about anybody can't grasp how it works. Beyond that we gain function but lose reliability. The real question is how much function we need, and how much reliability are we willing to give up.

Let's break this down to what can be fixed and where. More specifically, what can you fix out on the road, what can you fix at home, what can be fixed at the LBS and what is disposable. As an example, I'm going to use the single largest innovation in bicycle equipment in the past 30 years - indexed shifting. In the 70's there was positron, a system that used a rigid cable to control the rear derailleur. It failed. In 1984 Shimano introduced SIS, but did so with a friction setting on the lever. That answered the question about being able to fix it on the road - you simply shut it off. With STI they eliminated the option to shut off the indexing and entered into the era of disposable shifters. Campy users will be quick to argue that their levers are rebuildable, moving them one step up from disposable... If you really look at it, as long as the electronic shifting systems are made durable enough, you're really not giving up very much.

So let's look at wired vs. wireless. Wired has a single battery, it's weakness is the wiring harness. Assuming the communication between shifter and derailleur works, the down side of wireless is multiple batteries. Neither one can be fixed on the road, but both can probably be fixed by your average cyclist at home.

My issue with electronic shifting isn't with the wires or the batteries, it's with the bike parts. I still have my first Nuovo Record rear derailleur, other than a few dozen worn out pulleys, I haven't managed to make it any less accurate than it was when it was new. I also have my first Shimano rear derailleur, a Deore that came with my first mountain bike. It's seen better days, the steel plate used for the back of the parallelogram has gained a lot of slop. The step up from there, the Deore XT didn't have that problem 'cause it used cast aluminum plates front and rear. Look at a Dura-Ace mechanical rear derailleur, you'll see cast aluminum plates, you can twist that thing all day, it's not picking up slop. I've used the same Dura-Ace 7700 derailleur since I switched to 9-speed. Now take a look at the Di2 derailleur...

[saab2000]

I wish my S&S coupled bike had wireless shifting. That'd be slick!

[oldpotatoe]

well, the question isn't if you think eTap is THE solution, but whether you think wireless is where electronic will go. it's clear (and fair) you hate Sram and think eTap is stupid. but if Campy came out with an EPS system that was wireless and everything else was equal, what would you say?

you should give it another whirl. I've got cheap-ish Logitech bluetooth keyboard and mouse at work. both have been flawless for 5+ years so far and in general I get about six months of life from 2 AA batteries for each device. that's with a 40+ hour work week. far from "colossal POS" is all I'm saying.

and yeah, there's tons of wireless audio. use it in my car, office, home and on the bike almost every day.

Id say I'll keep my wired EPS. I don't like sram(the company and one big boy there) but I don't think etap is stupid. I think it's easier to install but it answers no question, solves no problem with regards to electronic shifting. Add 4 batteries and 'wonky'(IMHO, OK?) shifting protocol..I just kinda don't get it. Yup, new and whiz bang but other than install and no about 5 inches of little wires, plus 4 batteries..it reminds me of RedBull, a marketing company that sells an 'energy' drink. They did cuz they could, doesn't bring anything 'additional' to the elctronic shifting plate..IMHO. And before somebody says OMG, all the problems with all those wires..in actual practice, it isn't any problem at all.

Why spend the $ for a wireless mouse? What on earth does that do to improve my computer?

Tapping out, this is gonna be a EPS/Di2->etap 'argument' any second now..

[54ny77]

sometimes people want to buy the latest & greatest, and etap is it. not more complicated than that.

i'm giving it some thought on a bike that's equipped with red 10 spd. not yet, but maybe in the near future. i've now seen several bikes with it. haven't ridden it yet, but seen up close & in person. it's really friggin' cool.

as for electronic campy vs. shimano, eh, whatever. they're both great, they both work. and now, they're both equally hideous looking, so i'd rather have my own crank and brakes and etap shifters & derailleurs if i'm gonna go modern snazzy.

[reggiebaseball]

Id say I'll keep my wired EPS. I don't like sram(the company and one big boy there) but I don't think etap is stupid. I think it's easier to install but it answers no question, solves no problem with regards to electronic shifting. Add 4 batteries and 'wonky'(IMHO, OK?) shifting protocol..I just kinda don't get it. Yup, new and whiz bang but other than install and no about 5 inches of little wires, plus 4 batteries..it reminds me of RedBull, a marketing company that sells an 'energy' drink. They did cuz they could, doesn't bring anything 'additional' to the elctronic shifting plate..IMHO. And before somebody says OMG, all the problems with all those wires..in actual practice, it isn't any problem at all.

Why spend the $ for a wireless mouse? What on earth does that do to improve my computer?

Tapping out, this is gonna be a EPS/Di2->etap 'argument' any second now..

Great analogy,
and just like how Red Bull and Energy drinks disappeared and no longer are popular... so too will wireless shifting go by the wayside...

oh wait...

Your mouse has a wire? Are you kidding- do you realize how much you date yourself when you say stuff like that?

Enjoy EPS, I remember when the first two years of THAT you also said it was useless and you would never stop using your mechanical... what happened?



It might be time for you to light your gas lamp, and go listen to your gramophone...

[Elefantino]

Downtube shifting gave way to EPS/STI so that all controls could be made from one hand position. Revolution, not evolution.

Neither electronic nor wireless changes the game that much. You're arguing over incrementalism.

But it's fun to watch!

[fuzzalow]

All this sturm and drang.

Simple, elegant solution. Campagnolo only.

With this approach I see as less a wilful ignorance than as self evident solution.

[El Chaba]

I'm holding for a setup with an atomic battery and controlled by a brain implant....

[shovelhd]

I'd buy Di2 wireless as part of a 12 speed upgrade but I'd never replace my 9070 just to get rid of wires. And Ed, the carbon pulley cage is stronger than aluminum, although it can't be straightened in a vice.

[unterhausen]

Why spend the $ for a wireless mouse? What on earth does that do to improve my computer?
now you've gone too far. My first and only wireless keyboard hasn't gone that well, but wireless mice are much less annoying.

[bcroslin]

Rode my new etap equipped RSL tonight and it's simply amazing. It was easy to set up and it works perfectly. I'm not going to say it's better than the other electronic groups but no cables is killer. I love it.

[FastforaSlowGuy]

I don't get the hate for wires. It's pretty easy to bury the Di2 front junction so that the only exposed wires are at the derailleurs. ETap is a solution looking for a problem.



I asked my framebuilder how much it would cost to retrofit my carbon/ti frame for electronic shifting. It's currently set up for external cable runs. $1000 to drill out and reinforce the carbon. Other options are DIY (eek!) and taping the wires externally (ick). So wireless would solve that problem. Query whether electronic isn't a solution in search of a problem, but that's a question for several years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Great analogy,
and just like how Red Bull and Energy drinks disappeared and no longer are popular... so too will wireless shifting go by the wayside...

oh wait...

Your mouse has a wire? Are you kidding- do you realize how much you date yourself when you say stuff like that?

Enjoy EPS, I remember when the first two years of THAT you also said it was useless and you would never stop using your mechanical... what happened?

It might be time for you to light your gas lamp, and go listen to your gramophone...

Don't think I ever said electronic was useless. Pretty sure I said it never needs anything but install..as in it shifts the same every day..

Still have friction shifters on my Moots, with a 6s freewheel..sonny boy.

[weisan]

Discussion about the future, what qualified as true advancement and real progress often borders on being subjective, ego-driven, elitist, personal preference and emotional attachment. They made smart people look dumb. That's why I tried to stay out of them. :D


"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943

"Television won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night."
Darryl Zanuck, executive at 20th Century Fox, 1946

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977

"Apple is already dead."
Nathan Myhrvold, former Microsoft CTO, 1997

"Two years from now, spam will be solved."
Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, 2004

[Bob Ross]

wireless really solves no problem
ETap is a solution looking for a problem.


Saab understands the problem eTap solves:

I wish my S&S coupled bike had wireless shifting.

[shovelhd]

Retrofit to steel frames and coupled bikes, slam dunk. That's not what I'm referring to though. If your frame is electronic capable then I don't see the big deal about wireless being "clean" as something superior.