Riding in Israel -- Hoping my helmet is missile-proof.

[PBWrench]

I'm midway through a 5 week mini-sabbatical in Israel with my family. Interesting times. I've just acquired a hardtail and will start getting in some kilometers. I'll ride extra fast to dodge the katyusha missiles! BTW, Eurosport TDF coverage is an immense improvement over OLN atmo. Best and regards from the Holyland to all of my forum pals.

[Ray]

I'm midway through a 5 week mini-sabbatical in Israel with my family. Interesting times. I've just acquired a hardtail and will start getting in some miles. I'll ride extra fast to dodge the katyusha missiles! Best and regards from the Holyland to all of my forum pals.
Keep your head down and stay, if possible, in the southern part of the country, but not too close to Gaza or the West Bank. That ought to give you 100 miles or so to play with :crap:

Having spent time there when there was much turmoil (although not as much as now), its pretty astounding how much life goes on pretty much as normal. People in that country have been dealing with war and terror for so long that it's just become normal and until the bomb explodes on your street, you're only tangentially aware of anything different.

I think out riding is probably one of the safer places to be though.

-Ray

[MallyG]

I have ridden in Israel many times - though various changes of political climate. It's a wonderful country wit incredible cycling.
I've ridden both mountain bike, off road, through desert in the south and forest in the north - plus road bike from the very North of Israel to Eilat.
There are stunning places to cycle - especially Ramon Crater for both on and off-road.
Stay safe....

[Avispa]

I thought you were back!

You take care buddy... My friends here in FL, have relatives in Haifa and they are not very happy right now.

Be careful! But at least enjoy the better TDF coverage!

Yer pal,

A.

[djg]

Good luck over there--I'd stay the heck out of the north.

[shinomaster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

[93legendti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

Good call Shino...as long as it is the Mark IV variant. The Merkava (chariot) crews call it "the insurance policy". I have several friends who drive them. The designer, Talik, is a genius and one of the top 5 armored commanders of all time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Tal

PB, we plan to be there in November--I hope to climb the Hermon and the ascent to Hanita where we have a forest. The climb to Arad is nice and the Negev has good riding. Mizpe Ramon is also great. Stay safe and watch out for the drivers which are some of the worst in the world.

[shinomaster]

I think it is is interesting that the IDF never wanted our M1 tanks because they performed poorly in the desert. They would however, use any old M60 we could send their way.

[Marco]

and watch out for the drivers which are some of the worst in the world.

Can't say that I've surveyed all of the drivers out there but I know that I would be real careful. Enjoy your current local, it's better than being in the north with my krovim.

[PBWrench]

True, but post-ride jachnun is the perfect carb. Limited call-up started this morning.

[Marco]

Jachnun is from Zohar (as is malawach); Matbucha is from Mo'Rockin.

The 8th lines are only beginning.

[93legendti]

I think it is is interesting that the IDF never wanted our M1 tanks because they performed poorly in the desert. They would however, use any old M60 we could send their way.

Uhhh, neither statement is exactly true. After being at the whim of certain "civilized" European gov'ts for parts, planes, tanks and boats, especially in the days leading up to '67 AND preferring to design instruments of defense suited to her exact needs, Israel decided to start its own indigenous tank program. Later, Israel did the same with planes--Kfir and Lavi and a missile boat--Reshef.

The innovations of the Merkava made it perfectly suited for ME warfare, with the survivability of the crew given top priority. Most tank manufacturers emphasize speed. Israel's experience was that speed alone for speed sake was not a top priority. The early Patton and French AMX tanks highlighted this for the IDF.The IDF benefited more from tanks that were tough; had longer range guns; could hold ~2 x as many shells as their opponents' tanks; could traverse their turrets faster; could fire faster and could raise and lower their guns farther than the other guy. (For fascinating reads on tank warfare, check out "Duel For The Golan" and any account of the Egyptian October 14, 1973 attempt to break from its beach head and head for the Sinai passes.)

The M60 was not "tough" enough and exploded too easily. The IDF preferred the venerable Centurion, even though it was considered an outdated '50's platform. The British Centurion could withstand several longer range cannon blasts, especially those of a T-54 or the earlier Russian tanks (ask Zvika Greengold!). Israel took M-60's as a stop gap after '73 (they had some before as well) : 1) because they were offered, 2) because, while unsuited for Golan (rocky) fighting, it was better suited for the desert (Sinai) and 3) because the innovative, indigenous, Blazer reactive armor transformed the M60 into a wonderful platform--until the 1rst Merkavot rolled off the line.

[PBWrench]

'93 -- I'll meet you at Latrun for a schwarma and kinli.

[Marco]

What did you do for a bike when you where riding over yonder? Did you bring something with? Rent? Purchase? Give me some ideas...

[93legendti]

'93 -- I'll meet you at Latrun for a schwarma and kinli.

Anytime. I am hoping to have private meetings with Avigdor Kahalani and Zvika Greengold when we go in November. Latrun is on the list as in Emek Habacha. We also will be stopping at the Kirya and Hatzorim.

BTW, I like Schwarma, but I prefer Chakchuka and Sachlav!

http://www.davidpride.com/Israeli_Armor/IL_Armor059.htm

[93legendti]

What did you do for a bike when you where riding over yonder? Did you bring something with? Rent? Purchase? Give me some ideas...


I used to use my 650c folding Slinghot--which worked out great on trips. I have a 700c folding Slingshot incoming, but also have a Bike Friday Pocket Rocket--so the choice will be one of those. I am sure you can rent. If you do a google, there are some great off road riding places with rent options--Carmel Forest and Kibbutz Bee'ri come to mind. I can ask my friends who ride over there for more info when things quiet down...

[MallyG]

If you do a google, there are some great off road riding places with rent options--Carmel Forest and Kibbutz Bee'ri come to mind. I can ask my friends who ride over there for more info when things quiet down...


Kibbutz Be'eri? Now that brings back memories of the summer of '76 (or was it '77?) I spent three months there and had the most amazing time ever.

Anyway, I shall be going out to Israel in August, when I assume a few of us will set out from Herzliya for a few rides.

And - yes- take care of the lorry drivers, they're far more dangerous than the missiles!

[PBWrench]

ala kayfuk!

[93legendti]

Kibbutz Be'eri? Now that brings back memories of the summer of '76 (or was it '77?) I spent three months there and had the most amazing time ever.

Anyway, I shall be going out to Israel in August, when I assume a few of us will set out from Herzliya for a few rides.

And - yes- take care of the lorry drivers, they're far more dangerous than the missiles!

A good friend of mine is from Kibbutz Be'eri. (He now lives here as a shaleach for the FIDF.) He told me about the single and double track the Kibbutz has. I always tease him, because he doesn't like the heat or the sea!

[shinomaster]

I understand that they would rather have had the Chieftain over the M60. What I was talking about was an article I read back when I was in highschool (in maybe 1989) about the IDf, and that the U.S. wanted to sell the IDf the M1. They tested it and it didn't hold up in the desert, as it was designed to work in Germany. The Article said the IDF liked using the older M60-- I think because it was reliable. Yes an RPG could take out an M60 and so the blazer armor was developed. If sure if they wanted the M1 they would have them. I believe we had to put special filters on them to get them to work for us in Arabia.
It has been a long time since I was a kid and building model army tanks and thought about any of this.

[93legendti]

I understand that they would rather have had the Centurion over the M60. What I was talking about was an article I read back when I was in highschool (in maybe 1989) about the IDf, and that the U.S. wanted to sell the IDf the M1. They tested it and it didn't hold up in the desert, as it was designed to work in Germany. The Article said the IDF liked using the older M60-- I think because it was reliable. Yes an RPG could take out an M60 and so the blazer armor was developed. If sure if they wanted the M1 they would have them. I believe we had to put special filters on them to get them to work for us in Arabia.
It has been a long time since I was a kid and building model army tanks and thought about any of this.

By '89 Israel probably had 1000 Merkavot and were onto the Mark II. The Mark I was a HUGE success in Operation Peace for the Gallilee: No secondary(internal) explosions after it was hit by the enemy; not one crewman died in a Merkava and only 6 cases of light burns were reported. By contrast, 25% of all casualties suffered in M-60's and Centruions were from burns. (The Merkava has a fire suppression system). Israeli analysis showed that the odds of a round striking a tank actually penetrating was reduced from 61% for the M-60 to 41% for the Merkava. The chance of a round penetrating the crew department was similarly reduced from 30% to 13%. The chance of a tank catching fire was reduced from 31% to 13% for the Merkava. Normally, 85-90% of all tanks lit afire are destroyed. In Lebanon, not one Merkava was destroyed by fire and not one was declared a complete loss for any reason. The Merkava took only 48 hours to be repaired as opposed to ~ 2 weeks for other MBT's of that era. The Merkava could also carry 10 infantrymen. Most importantly, the Merkava won every engagement with T-62 and 72's, including 9 T-72's destroyed--which was a blow to the Russians for their vaunted, new tank.

Of course, the fact the Merkava provided jobs for Israelis can not be discounted.

Finally, the reason for the Merkava's birth was not having to ever worry about an embargo from the U.K., US or Germany for tanks/tank parts--as Israel did on the eve of the Six Day War when the French decided to hold back 60 Mirages and 8 missile gun boats. Taking M-1's would have run counter to that tenet. Chile has just learned that Ameican jets without spare parts are useless--requiring Chile to go elsewhere for a fighter jet.

[shinomaster]

Well, the M60 is a POS when compared to the Merkava, unless you are in a big hurry to get someplace. I'm sure you have seen how they have replaced alost every part on the M60 and Chieftains with Israeli tracks and suspension and new passive armor.

[JohnS]

Well, the M60 is a POS when compared to the Merkava, .
Well, I hope so! The M60 is a whole generation older than the Merkava. And the Merkave isn't as good as the M1A2 or the Brit Challenger 2. But who cares, it's the crew that makes the difference. Some nationalities make good soldiers, and some don't. I won't go into the Italian and French jokes here.... :banana: :banana:

[93legendti]

Well, I hope so! The M60 is a whole generation older than the Merkava. And the Merkave isn't as good as the M1A2 or the Brit Challenger 2. But who cares, it's the crew that makes the difference. Some nationalities make good soldiers, and some don't. I won't go into the Italian and French jokes here.... :banana: :banana:

I hope you're not relying upon the Military Channel's ranking for this conclusion. They put the t-54 high up on the list, largely because of the large amounts produced. With only 200 tanks, Israel destroyed 1150 of them in 4 days on the Golan in 1973--external fuel tanks; slow gun; limited gun range; limited gun elevation and depression; limited shell storage capacity and the fact it burned often and quickly made it a very poor choice. Oh yeah, it was very uncomfortable!

[shinomaster]

The t-34 was a good tank.

[obtuse]

I think it is is interesting that the IDF never wanted our M1 tanks because they performed poorly in the desert. They would however, use any old M60 we could send their way.


wrong. they didn't want them because they were too expensive and israel needed better fuel economy from their main battle tanks which the turbine m1 engine couldn't really supply. the united states is the only country with the infastructure and supply to support a tank that gets the m1's mileage per gallon and its speed and range.

obtuse

[shinomaster]

Hmmm...I remember that some of our military junk didn't work so well in Kuwait on account of all the sand. Remember it was all designed to fight the Reds.

[obtuse]

Hmmm...I remember that some of our military junk didn't work so well in Kuwait on account of all the sand. Remember it was all designed to fight the Reds.


balckhawk/nighthawk/seahawk helicopters work fine in egyptian sand but not so well in iranian sand; just ask jimmy carter.

obtuse

[csm]

did they have blackhawks in iran then? i think they were chinooks? or sea stallions?

[JohnS]

Hmmm...I remember that some of our military junk didn't work so well in Kuwait on account of all the sand. Remember it was all designed to fight the Reds.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. All US armored training takes place at the NTC in Ft. Irwin, CA, which, last time I looked, was desert. Yes, they needed more frequent filter changes, but so would any vehicle. Obtuse is right about cost. The Merkava has it's engine in the front for protection, which is cheaper than the Challenger and Abrams' Chobham composite armor.
As 93Lti pointed out, it's not the tank, it's the crew. The Israeli and Arab tanks where similar technologically, but crew training made the difference.
The Argies found that out in the Falklands. They had better equipment and warmer clothing than the Brits, but the Brits are the best light infantry in the world, bar none. The Paras and Royal Marines put a whupping on the Argies, even though they were outnumbered.

[JohnS]

did they have blackhawks in iran then? i think they were chinooks? or sea stallions?
Marine Sea Stallions. Back then, there weren't any SpecOps copters. They just grabbed the nearest unit's and used them. Now there is the Army's 160th SO Aviation Regt and the AF's Pathfinders.

[csm]

sure the british light infantry is pretty good but I'll take our rangers anyday!

[JohnS]

sure the british light infantry is pretty good but I'll take our rangers anyday!
The Brits get by with less, which makes them tougher, atmo.

[obtuse]

did they have blackhawks in iran then? i think they were chinooks? or sea stallions?


entered service in 1978.

obtuse

[shinomaster]

http://www.acpr.org.il/English-Nativ/04-issue/fishbein-4.htm

Me wrong??? No way...ha ha..I think it was the appache that had problems..? Sorry my memory is quite poor on the matter.
I believe all or you.
This article is interesting. Jordan has the Challender and Egypt has or M1A2. It sounds like the Merkava is too expensive to keep producing.

[Fat Robert]

Some nationalities make good soldiers, and some don't. I won't go into the Italian and French jokes here.... :banana: :banana:

simplistic nationalism yo

its not the ethnicity or nationality, its the social structures that produce the officer corps and the ranks, and whether the first is socialized to lead well and the second has any confidence in and loyalty to the first. the same french grunts that refused to fire on their sansculotte "brothers" whupped up pretty well on prussian and austrian infantry, when led by a different type of officer from a different class, for example. one could probably get a good book out of looking at how the perceived relationships between the social groups that produced the officer class and the ranks changed enough in the 20s and 30s to change the effectiveness of the french forces from 1918 to 1940....

[JohnS]

simplistic nationalism yo

its not the ethnicity or nationality, its the social structures that produce the officer corps and the ranks, and whether the first is socialized to lead well and the second has any confidence in and loyalty to the first. the same french grunts that refused to fire on their sansculotte "brothers" whupped up pretty well on prussian and austrian infantry, when led by a different type of officer from a different class, for example. one could probably get a good book out of looking at how the perceived relationships between the social groups that produced the officer class and the ranks changed enough in the 20s and 30s to change the effectiveness of the french forces from 1918 to 1940....
You're right (sorta). Someone said, I forget who, "There are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders" or something like that.
It also depends on how much initiative is allowed. Those armies that have a very rigid caste system usually have poorer performance. You have to lead from the front, not send the poor grunts out by themselves.

[obtuse]

nevermind

[Fat Robert]

nevermind

hey

and that long-winded reactionary tennyson managed to win the propaganda campaign, but the british sucked in the crimea...les bleus took that one, even without zidane

[93legendti]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. All US armored training takes place at the NTC in Ft. Irwin, CA, which, last time I looked, was desert. Yes, they needed more frequent filter changes, but so would any vehicle. Obtuse is right about cost. The Merkava has it's engine in the front for protection, which is cheaper than the Challenger and Abrams' Chobham composite armor.
As 93Lti pointed out, it's not the tank, it's the crew. The Israeli and Arab tanks where similar technologically, but crew training made the difference.
The Argies found that out in the Falklands. They had better equipment and warmer clothing than the Brits, but the Brits are the best light infantry in the world, bar none. The Paras and Royal Marines put a whupping on the Argies, even though they were outnumbered.

Yes, in '73 on the Golan the IDF shot tank shells in 1/2 the time it took a Syrian tank crew to fire. Couple that with the IDF's better accuracy, especially at long range, and you can see why the Syrian's chance of success required perfection--even though they had betetr than 7-1 odds. Usually ~4-1 odds is all that is thought to be necessary to defeat a defensive line.

[PBWrench]

I believe my thread has tanked.

[93legendti]

wrong. they didn't want them because they were too expensive and israel needed better fuel economy from their main battle tanks which the turbine m1 engine couldn't really supply. the united states is the only country with the infastructure and supply to support a tank that gets the m1's mileage per gallon and its speed and range.

obtuse

Ahem, no. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=232593&postcount=21

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/Merkava.html

The IDF are the absolute experts on tank warfare and designed the perfect tank for their locale and their needs. Hence, the M1 was neither 100% suitable for them, nor necessary. IDF tanks have run on diesel for a long time. With Israel being as small as it is, gas mileage is low on their list of priorities for a MBT.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/tank_comparison_detail.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/merkava.htm

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20031228.aspx

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/main_battle_tanks.asp

[93legendti]

I believe my thread has tanked.

Where are you located now? My friends in the center of the country hear little, except Appaches, F-15's and F-16's flying overhead.

[PBWrench]

In Jerusalem. It's a bubble here. Suicide bombing attempts, but otherwise quiet. Quite dfferent in the North with a very limited call up of reserves. Many years ago, I was in the air force, my unit based at Hazerim. All this talk of tanks is just one big yawn! Actually, the level of knowledge expressed here is outstanding.

[93legendti]

In Jerusalem. It's a bubble here. Suicide bombing attempts, but otherwise quiet. Quite dfferent in the North with a very limited call up of reserves. Many years ago, I was in the air force, my unit based at Hazerim. All this talk of tanks is just one big yawn! Actually, the level of knowledge expressed here is outstanding.

Hey, if you go to Hazerim, you might see a plaque for the new furniture we just donated for the rec club! Small world. If you are looking for a nice, quiet place to visit, we also donated a JNF forest near Jerusalem. I can get you directions/info if you want to visit. What years were you in the IAF? My friend (also a very good rider) was in the IAF in 1973--he took the call from Benny Peled cancelling a strike on Egyptian SAM sites and instead sending the planes to Syria (Operations Tagar and Dougman).