Upgraded wheels.. riding slower. What can it be?

[itsikhefez]

Hey all,

I've recently upgraded my wheels and on my first ride (my typical weekend 40km) I felt slower. I not only felt slower, but it took me about 5 minutes more than usual, and the overall feeling during the ride was that I need to work harder to maintain the same speed I used to.

I will obviously ride them more before I make a judgement, but I thought it would be a night and day difference for the better, and it was the opposite.
It could have been something other than the wheels, like maybe it was more windy than usual or maybe I had less energy (and thus felt harder to ride) but I am wondering if there any typical gotcha's that I may have missed.

My previous wheels were stock that came with the bike, Shimano RS-010, Conti UltraSport 2 tires and 105 11-32 cassette. New wheels are DA9000 hubs on HED Belgium rims, 28/32 spokes (Sapim Rays on front and Sapim Race in back), Conti GP4000s2 and Ultegra 11-28 cassette.

So basically, everything is upgraded here, better tire, better hub, 200g lighter and truer (the stock wheels were not true at all)

I assembled the tire, tube, veloplugs and cassette, so maybe missed something here but how difficult can it be really.

Any advice appreciate.
Thanks!

[VonTrapp]

My first thought, simplest thought, which could have been overlooked on the stoke-factor of new bike parts (happens to me too): wider wheel = maybe a tad bit of brake rub on the front/rear?

[ColonelJLloyd]

My previous wheels... 105 11-32 cassette.
New wheels... Ultegra 11-28 cassette.

You changed your gearing. Were you not in a different gear than you normally would be at a given point in the route?

[itsikhefez]

My first thought, simplest thought, which could have been overlooked on the stoke-factor of new bike parts (happens to me too): wider wheel = maybe a tad bit of brake rub on the front/rear?

After installing the new wheels I had to readjust the brake pads height and also distance them a bit from the rim. I took my time here so I don't think that is the issue.

You changed your gearing. Were you not in a different gear than you normally would be at a given point in the route?

I'm not sure, but I never actually know what gear I'm in... I usually try to keep a steady cadence and shift accordingly

[velotrack]

Always give it time.
Don't think one ride is quite enough. There are certainly factors that are even bigger than 1/4 pound off each wheel.

[martl]

i would be hard pressed to name any piece of racing bike equipment that would cause a 5min gap on such a short route in either direction, slower or faster. On my similar-length regular route that is the difference between a quite leisurely wintertime-stroll and a summer-fitness all-out attempt, almost.
I'd look elswhere for reasons or, as has been suggested, ride it a couple of times more.

[oldpotatoe]

i would be hard pressed to name any piece of racing bike equipment that would cause a 5min gap on such a short route in either direction, slower or faster. On my similar-length regular route that is the difference between a quite leisurely wintertime-stroll and a summer-fitness all-out attempt, almost.
I'd look elswhere for reasons or, as has been suggested, ride it a couple of times more.

I agree. Even way tight hubs in need of adjust wouldn't necessarily account for that but I WOULD check that..wheels off, qrs out, spin axles with fingers.

[merckx]

The RS010 is aerodynamically superior to your new wheel set, but not enough to account for 5 minutes. The time difference is likely the result of many variables.

[weisan]

I have the same upgraded wheels that you have. In my experience, the Belgiums are not exactly "go-fast" wheels but more like a reliable "bombproof" all-rounder wheels that I can confidently use in any occasions, whether it's gravel, cobbles or paved, urban pothole city or chip-seal, dry or wet roads, light or heavy riders etc. It will outlast anything. One thing I do notice when I swap wheels between my Pacenti and the Belgiums is the stiffness. The Belgiums are noticeably stiffer especially when I maintain the same tire pressure. And so, to get a softer ride, I let out a bit of air and ride at a slightly lower tire pressure that I normally do. The wound up from standstill is also noticeably slower, perhaps because of the stiffness.

In summary, the times when i opted for my Belgiums is not because I crave for speed but strength and reliability.

That's just my two cents.

[ripvanrando]

loose clothing can account for 5 minutes.

a defective tire can account for 5 minutes.

misadjusted cup and cone bearings can account for 5 minutes.

wind and/or temperature can account for 5 minutes.

Rider variations (tired for instance) is most likely the reason

There is no wheelset in the world that will take 5 minutes off a 40km ride unless it has one of these CX motors in it.

[Black Dog]

loose clothing can account for 5 minutes.

a defective tire can account for 5 minutes.

misadjusted cup and cone bearings can account for 5 minutes.

wind and/or temperature can account for 5 minutes.

Rider variations (tired for instance) is most likely the reason

There is no wheelset in the world that will take 5 minutes off a 40km ride unless it has one of these CX motors in it.

It is anything other than the wheels. You were expecting something that was not going to happen and it didn't and you are blaming the wheels as a result. Buy all measures the new wheels will be a bit faster with those tires and if you run them at lower pressures (75-90 psi range), however the difference will be a handful of watts and that will not be noticeable while you ride. Except that it will be more comfortable...this can also be confused as a slow feeling due to the reduced amount of feedback from the tires.

[Marcovelo]

5 mins is a lot, so something probably is going on, but let's try to minimize assumptions. First, can you eliminate all other variables?

Unless it was an all out effort ( i.e., TT) with no reason to slow down that you have completed many times before, it will be difficult to gauge on time alone. And even then . . .

Without a powermeter it is virtually impossible to tell whether you were putting out the same effort and the wheels slowed you down or whether you had an off day.

Fatigue can be very difficult to tell by feel. I train with a powermeter, and do many of the same workouts over the course of the summer- week to week. I'm often a little surprised how much variation there is day-to-day in my ability to put out power even when I feel adequately rested. Day to day fatigue seems to have a lot to do with it, and it turns out to be difficult to tell on "feel". I'll head out thinking I feel rested, put in a hard ride, get home and look at the average power and normalized power and be surprised.

It may well be the wheels, but it may not be.

[chiasticon]

yeah I think you need to give 'em a few more rides to really get an idea. I'll randomly have terrible days on the bike and feel like I'm pedaling through sand the entire time, when I otherwise should just be cruising. sometimes it's just not your day. the flip side of that is much more fun though, when you randomly just feel terrific.

that said, I wouldn't necessarily look at those new wheels and say they'll be way faster. they're lighter, I'm sure, but not really lightweights. the rims aren't super aero, nor are they much lighter (if at all). so you shouldn't expect them to spin up a ton better and float up climbs, nor allow you to hold a given speed at a lower power output. BUT what they are over your old wheels is stronger and sexier. that alone should give you a 5 watt advantage, at least until the honeymoon period is over.

[ergott]

If you give the wheels a light spin while holding up the bike and they come to an abrupt stop the bearing adjustment could be too tight. The advantage of Dura Ace hubs is that cone/cup hubs can be adjusted to be the smoothest riding hubs, but they can also be set up wrong and either bind up or too loose and have play. Either situation will lead to premature wear/failure of the bearings.

That set should roll real well and not hold you back one bit.

[carpediemracing]

I don't think the wheel/tires accounted for 5 minutes, unless you ride at my pace and the 40k took almost 2 hours. Then maybe 5 minutes.

I'm guessing that you just didn't have a great day, plus maybe wind, plus maybe a few momentum things (you didn't quite wind it up here or there), possibly a light (I stop for them and a minute at one light, a minute at another, plus associated loss of momentum...), and suddenly, yes, you'll account for 5 minutes more time.

The stops are killer. If you use Waze or any GPS nav system that gives you an ETA, you'll quickly realize that going a bit faster doesn't really save you time - to save time you have to go exponentially faster, like going 60 in a 30 zone, or 90 in a 55. That's not safe and not a reality. So what really saves time is not stopping and not going exponentially slower. I'm guessing one or both happened to you on your maiden ride.

[bobswire]

I'm a retro grouch and Mavic Open Pros are my wheels of choice but awhile back I thought I'd try some wider rim H + PLUS SON TB14 using the same tires I used on the Open Pros (vittoria Rubino Pro Tech 27c). They felt slower than the Open Pros,I felt they didn't have the get up and go when I put the metal to the pedal. In hindsight and getting used to the wider rims I found it was the plusher ride I was getting and my mind equated that with being bogged down when In fact the opposite was happening and found I was less tired after a long somewhat hard ride. I still ride Open Pros for my everyday wheel but when I plan on a longer more exhausting ride I use either Velocity A-23 wheels or TB-14. It's all in a frame in mind.

[carpediemracing]

As an anecdotal thing when I got one particular BB30 frame the BB30 part of it wasn't good. It had to be reamed but the problem was no one had a reamer. Nonetheless I smashed some bearings into it and rode the thing. If you spun the cranks they stopped in about a quarter revolution. It was literally indexed all the way around, if you spun it slowly it just stopped, no free rotation at all. Since BB bearings don't affect anything else I decided to just ride it until I could find someone with a reamer or buy one myself.

As an experiment I put it in a lower gear, like a 39x21 or something, and, while coasting at a pretty high speed (45 mph), I pedaled like mad without ever engaging the freehub. At very high rpms, about 160 rpm, I saw 15 watts on my SRM. At normal rpms, like 90 rpm, I saw 5-7 watts.

My FTP at the time was about 220w, so 5-7w is sort of significant.

However that's the year I felt unstoppable on the bike. I upgraded to Cat 2 for the first time in decades of racing.

Later (it was 2 years later) I bought a reamer (last one from one particular distributor according to the LBS that ordered it), had the shop do the reaming since they had the handles, then put new bearings in. Could not get the SRM to register even 1 watt with no chain load. I'm riding worse now, but that's because of me of course.

What I'm saying is that bearing seal rub or even hub maldjustment won't do much to your riding efficiency. It may feel bad off the bike but on the bike, unless stuff simply doesn't turn, it doesn't do much.

[Tickdoc]

Waiting to hear rate results of the spin test, and what results you get from another ride or two.

When I bought my enve's I switched from American Classic 350's and I was told by my wrench that he "guaranteed" I would be faster on the enves.

The bastard was right....it was a noticeable decrease in times on similar rides.

I would be frustrated if it was the other way around. Let's hope they just aren't broken in yet.

[zap]

When it comes to consistent, repeatable tests, humans suck. Also, mother nature may have snuck in a breeze or two.

[itsikhefez]

Thanks for all the replies, really.

I am heading out for my commute, I will add 25km to try to get some more time on the wheels.

Will update later!

[Gummee]

IME wheels/rims like the Hed Belgiums and other 'non-aero' rims are going to be about 1 gear slower at a given speed **at speed** than an aero wheel. At speed being 25-30mph or so.

Otherwise, if you're not racing CX, now's not the time to be going fast

I rode my front 303 yesterday during a CX training session. Got my rear end handed to me by a 15YO kid and a buddy of mine who I know is faster than I am. Wasn't the wheel's fault... I couldn't seem to get out of my own way again. Grrr

Aaah well. Its a long season (all of 3 mos!)

M

[ergott]

Nah, I have no problem hammering in the mid to upper 20s with Pacenti rims (same basic profile as Hed). I do like my aero carbon wheels, but they aren't a full gear faster. That's a few mph at those speeds.

More time is needed here and I agree that 5 minutes is probably due to other factors.

[chiasticon]

I rode my front 303 yesterday during a CX training session. Got my rear end handed to me by a 15YO kid and a buddy of mine who I know is faster than I am. Wasn't the wheel's fault... I couldn't seem to get out of my own way again. Grrrshould've used the rear 303 instead. IME, that's where the biggest benefits of using carbon for cx come from - more stiffness and power transfer. allegedly they also help with lateral steering stiffness - and the front would benefit from that the most - but I feel like you gotta be railing the corner to really take advantage of that.

[drewellison]

Headwind/tailwind is what makes the big difference in my riding times, which are always in one directions - long directional commutes.

Temperature too. Warmer weather means I'm faster.

[itsikhefez]

Thanks for all the replies, really.

I am heading out for my commute, I will add 25km to try to get some more time on the wheels.

Will update later!

I rode today again. The speed has improved a bit, I was able to keep up my usual speeds, although I can't help but feel more sluggish. Could tire pressure be a factor? Both the previous and new tire are 23C, and I'm using the same pressure 95/100 (F/R). The difference is though that on the HED's those 23C are measuring 25mm now. I weigh 135 lbs, should I go lower PSI?

In addition, I compared some data (I only have HR), and it seems that on my weekend ride I didnt really put in an effort. My Avg/Max HR was 134/160, and on my faster rides my HR was 146/172, so that may be the explanation.

[sandyrs]

I rode today again. The speed has improved a bit, I was able to keep up my usual speeds, although I can't help but feel more sluggish. Could tire pressure be a factor? Both the previous and new tire are 23C, and I'm using the same pressure 95/100 (F/R). The difference is though that on the HED's those 23C are measuring 25mm now. I weigh 135 lbs, should I go lower PSI?

In addition, I compared some data (I only have HR), and it seems that on my weekend ride I didnt really put in an effort. My Avg/Max HR was 134/160, and on my faster rides my HR was 146/172, so that may be the explanation.

It's funny how many things can boil down to having an "off day" even if you don't perceive yourself to be riding any slower or easier. I'd imagine that the wider tires might "feel" a bit slower, but that doesn't mean they *are* slower. One's subconscious perception of speed on the bike rarely correlates perfectly with actual measured speed. For what it's worth though, I'd definitely drop the pressure a bit. I ride those pressures and I'm 190.

[oldpotatoe]

It's funny how many things can boil down to having an "off day" even if you don't perceive yourself to be riding any slower or easier. I'd imagine that the wider tires might "feel" a bit slower, but that doesn't mean they *are* slower. One's subconscious perception of speed on the bike rarely correlates perfectly with actual measured speed. For what it's worth though, I'd definitely drop the pressure a bit. I ride those pressures and I'm 190.

I'm .1 offa ton plus 5 lbs and use 85psi front and rear...25mm tires..

[makoti]

Nah, I have no problem hammering in the mid to upper 20s with Pacenti rims (same basic profile as Hed). I do like my aero carbon wheels, but they aren't a full gear faster. That's a few mph at those speeds.

More time is needed here and I agree that 5 minutes is probably due to other factors.

Going to agree with Eric. Love my Enve's but my Pacenti's are very close at the speeds I ride (high teens/low 20's)

[Gummee]

should've used the rear 303 instead. IME, that's where the biggest benefits of using carbon for cx come from - more stiffness and power transfer. allegedly they also help with lateral steering stiffness - and the front would benefit from that the most - but I feel like you gotta be railing the corner to really take advantage of that.

Yabbut... The rear's 10sp only right now. Haven't decided whether to stick a D/A 9k hub in there (what I'm leaning towards), use a Campag FH body and Chorus cassette, or get an aftermarket FH body from the bay of e and run it as is. I don't particularly care for Zipp hubs, so I'm leaning towards the re-hub option.

...or... anyone have a silver hub in 24h and 11sp they wanna sell or trade something for?

M

edited to add: I was running a D/A 9k C24 rear wheel, so I wasn't 'out' anything other than a few oz of weight

[BobbyJones]

In addition, I compared some data (I only have HR), and it seems that on my weekend ride I didnt really put in an effort. My Avg/Max HR was 134/160, and on my faster rides my HR was 146/172, so that may be the explanation.

Headsmak!

FWIW- I always rode common box rims (open pros, wolbers, etc) and I like higher pressures, regardless of the performance data. My first pair of Belgiums at 95ish felt like riding in sand, but speed didn't suffer.

I've since gotten used to the feel of 23mm wide rims and lower pressures, but when I'm in the mood I'll run 100-110 just because I like the feel. It's technically slower, but there's no accounting for subjective perception!

[reggiebaseball]

the question you should be asking yourself is,
when you have a "good hair day" and ride 5 minutes faster than average in the future,
are you going to give the credit to your wheels?

wheel sellers would like you to, but now you know better.

[martl]

the question you should be asking yourself is,
when you have a "good hair day" and ride 5 minutes faster than average in the future,
are you going to give the credit to your wheels?

wheel sellers would like you to, but now you know better.

My smallest regular route is 45km, 22,5 in one direction, same way back. Sometimes i'll arrive at the turning point a couple of minutes earlier than usual, or later. Usually, i learn on the way back, why. The wind, the wind, the heaven-born wind.