OT: Funny Story-Hey Audiophiles; I May Need New Speakers (and bike content)!

[Peter P.]

I have a pair of Mission 700 Leading Edge bookshelf speakers. They're 28 years old. 6.5" woofer; frequency response 55-20kHz, +/- 3dB, 100W power handling. I live in a condo; the living room is 12x15' and I sit 13 feet from the speakers. I can't play music TOO loud, considering I have neighbors on both sides, but it's definitely a more sound-tolerant environment than my apartment was.

I like LOW bass. Not necessarily loud bass, but low. I have a Boston Acoustics Bass Collection set of test CDs with music samples which reach 20Hz.

So I'm playing the disc today and I begin to hear a buzzing/rattling. Uh oh; I think I just blew a woofer! I take the speakers apart and swap woofers to see if it follows the woofer, or maybe the crossover is smoked. Damn if the rattling remains with the speaker. But I expect if the crossover is bad, I'd get NOTHING out of the woofer.

I monkey around with this for about an hour, swapping woofers; checking crossovers. Then I try playing music at a LOW level, and there's NO PROBLEM. I'm now thinking maybe something loosened up in the cabinet construction; something came unglued/unscrewed from the cabinet.

I decide to rap on the cabinet with my knuckles, much like you'd check a carbon fiber bike frame for cracks. Well, I learned something today; that's probably an EXCELLENT, reliable method to check for cracks in your frame!

The speaker baffle is not made of MDF like the rest of the cabinet. It's made of a carbon fiber/fibrous/plastic-like material, and when I tapped it around the largest unsupported section of the baffle, the tone would change from a dead THUD to a buzzy rattle. And there I found it; an almost invisible crack running from the bottom of the baffle all the way to the edge of the tweeter (see the photo below-notice the chalky, vertical line between the "SS's" in "Mission"). Surprisingly, the other speaker has the same crack but it must not be bad enough to cause the rattle. And to confirm things, I can brace the crack with my finger and the rattle stops.

I'm gonna try to "fix" this problem by drilling a hole in the center of the crack's span and threading in a wood screw. I figure it will apply pressure to the joint or change the resonant frequency so it won't rattle.

The other, obvious solution is to replace the speakers. Here's where you audiophiles come in.

I kind of don't want the headache of selling my speaker stands so I'd like to keep them if possible, but keeping them limits the size of the speaker I could buy. They have a 6x8" speaker platform. They weigh 75lbs. each so there's no worry they'll tip over. I could unload them on Craigslist, however.

Considering the low frequencies I like and the limitations of bookshelf speakers, do you think I could replace these with another 6.5" woofer speaker that perhaps has an MDF baffle so I won't have to worry about cracking another baffle? Should I go with larger woofer bookshelf speakers? Floorstanding speakers? Floorstanding speakers would have to sit close to the wall due to space limitations. I'm not interested in a sub/sat option.

These speakers cost $300/pr. 28 years ago. That's $611 in today's dollars. I figure I could set a limit of 1k for a pair of speakers and that would leave room for upgrading, or has technology advanced so much in 30 years that the value/dollar ratio has changed and my math isn't relevant today? Feel free to recommend a speaker that would meet my needs

Lastly, if this is the wrong place to post my problem, can you recommend a forum that would be worthwhile to post my problem to?

Thanks!

[pjm]

Haven't heard them personally but Elac speakers have been getting rave reviews in the audio press. Bargain priced.

[dgauthier]

I'm gonna try to "fix" this problem by drilling a hole in the center of the crack's span and threading in a wood screw. (...)

(..) could replace these with another 6.5" woofer speaker that perhaps has an MDF baffle so I won't have to worry about cracking another baffle?

Can you remove the woofer and tweeter and try to fix the crack from the inside? Perhaps drizzle a little crazy glue along the crack on the inside, and let capillary action transport the glue into the crack.

Failing that, why not get another pair of Missions? At 28 years per crack, that's a lot of musical enjoyment before you have to start worrying.

[pcxmbfj]

IMO this is a carpentry problem.
Can't tell from the picture but looks like a fail of the manmade material and will need correcting in both cabinets.
Remove the speaker components and rebuild the cabinets or take to a cabinet builder.
You can go to audiokarma.org to look for examples and help.
I've seen examples of 50 year old speakers patched and working.

[rnhood]

Audio Asylum and Audio Circle are the two dominate forums for getting advice.



http://www.audioasylum.com/

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=circles

[Likes2ridefar]

Buy mine:hello:

They go below 20hz and in your sized room will sound like a live concert when barely breaking a sweat. Most people think they require power though I've heard them plenty loud with a midrange Yamaha receiver. I feed them 220w per channel though...

[jtolive]

If you could bump your limit up to $1500 the KEF LS50s are extremely accurate speakers and should give you the bass you are looking for. Here is a review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker

[Ronsonic]

One thing that has worked for me ....

Apply glue to the crack / seam / whatever is loose, then use a sig gen (or test disk, etc) to find the resonant frequency of the failure. You'll know when you get there because the motion of the rattling bits will suck the glue right into the void. Then shut it off, clamp if possible. Done.

I'd try a thin-ish CA (super glue), not a thick gel and not water thin either.

[mcteague]

If you could bump your limit up to $1500 the KEF LS50s are extremely accurate speakers and should give you the bass you are looking for. Here is a review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker

I'm sure the LS50 is a nice speaker but nothing that small will produce much deep bass. Pretty much nothing below 50Hz or so.

Tim

[Likes2ridefar]

I'm sure the LS50 is a nice speaker but nothing that small will produce much deep bass. Pretty much nothing below 50Hz or so.

Tim

Most people I read about using them have them in a near field situation and for that they seem pretty awesome.

If low bass is needed you need 8" woofers or bigger in my experience.

Even my mirage with dual 8" woofers i posted earlier don't have much bass in their current room (very large and open design) unless I really crank them up which then neighbors 3 floors down might be complaining.

[Ken Robb]

You seem to be a very good candidate for a good sub-woofer. Another idea would be Vandesteen Model 1c. They would fit your room just like your present set-up but would not require the stands. OTOH you can probably find used Vandersteen 2ci pairs at reasonable prices and they have wonderful sound with very good, tight bass. in a pretty small footprint too.

[IJWS]

Thank goodness someone on Paceline is going through what I'm going through! Here's my saga:

I currently have a pair of Mission M71's from the early 2000's, with a Rega Brio R as a source. I recently "upgraded" to the Elac B6 (https://www.amazon.com/Debut-Bookshelf-Speakers-Andrew-Jones/dp/B014GSEQ06/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474927377&sr=8-1&keywords=elac+b6)'s. I had to hear them--they're really cheap and get rave reviews. When I received them, they sounded different so I loved them. I was playing songs for my girlfriend and she was like "where are all my favorite parts of this song?" Insert frowny-face. I kept the speakers for a month waiting for them to break in and they never got there--the bass was overpowering the mid-range and I couldn't hear the crisp midrange that I was used to getting from the Missions. The Elac's went back in the box and back to Music Direct. My experiment cost $20 in return shipping.

Since then I have been on the hunt for new speakers with a ceiling of around $500, so we might be in good company. The only difference it seems is that you might prefer Bass response over imaging. Here's what I have been thinking about--and they should be good leads for you:

Kef LS50 (http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker)'s, these can be found at or under $1k used--what ceiling? The thing about these is that you could have confidence in them for another 30 years. Not going to get much bass from them though.

QAcoustics Concept 20 (http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/concept-20/review)'s, $430. Ordered today can update with first impressions in a couple of weeks if this thread is still alive. Interesting cabinet construction and again, rave reviews.

Elac Unifi UB5 (http://www.cnet.com/products/elac-uni-fi-ub5/), $500, despite my experience with the B6's, the Elac's did have an energy that I was really into. The unifi ub5's are a little smaller and have some very interesting drivers...and then the rave reviews. I was toying with the idea of ordering these to audition alongside the Concept 20's but my girlfriend would kill me.

Kef Q300 (https://www.designeraudiovideo.com/kef-q300-2-way-bookshelf-speakers-european-walnut-pair.html?gclid=CJbYheqErs8CFQc0aQodqYEDzg)'s, $550. My audiophile friend that used to manage a hifi-shop has these for his personal setup. The Q series is a little dated but..they're Kef's. The common understanding is that the Q100's and Q300's are almost identical except that the Q300's have more bass extension due to the larger driver.

Those have been the main contenders. There are also outliers as well.

If I had a higher ceiling, I would be pitting the SVS Ultra (http://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-bookshelf)'s against Kef LS50's--the Ultra's supposedly make more bass and they have a very strong following.

If I was playing a little closer to the chest, Philharmonic affordable accuracy monitors (http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html) are supposed to be very good values for the money. These, or NHT Super Zero's, paired with a Sub might be a really smart way to go.

If I had a table saw and a little more confidence with electronics, I would love to build a pair of GR Research XLS (http://gr-research.com/x-lsencorekit.aspx)'s

I have no conclusion for you, but these are at least some things to look at and consider. People have been saying recently that speaker technology has been advancing at a very rapid pace during the last 10 years. You may be surprised by what can be had for relatively small amounts of money these days...you may not :)

Good luck with your search and please keep us updated!

[Peter P.]

Thanks for all the responses and speaker suggestions! For sure, it's tempting to just buy new speakers! Ken Robb is probably right; I'm a candidate for a subwoofer and I'd love to go that route. My problem is the woofer's cone would face the back of one speaker stand, less than a foot away. If I could get around that, I'd go that route.

Update: I drilled a hole in the center of the crack's span and inserted a screw. I fired up the speaker and-the rattle was still there!

I quickly learned it wasn't the crack that was vibrating but the bottom edge of the baffle, which must have come unglued from the cabinet.

I read Ronsonic's advice too late; I tried flowing some Gorilla Glue along the edge where the baffle meets the cabinet. It seemed to flow into the gap and this stuff is supposed to expand as it dries.

I'll report back once the glue dries.

[Likes2ridefar]

Maybe an Svs cylinder subwoofer would work better.

[jghall]

Ken Robb is probably right; I'm a candidate for a subwoofer and I'd love to go that route. My problem is the woofer's cone would face the back of one speaker stand, less than a foot away. If I could get around that, I'd go that route..

There are bottom ported subwoofers to choose from. Or front firing for that matter.

With regards to speakers, the possibilities are endless. Obviously there is the name brand stuff. But also some lesser known too. A few of the latter to maybe check into; Aeon, SVS, DefTech Studio, etc. The Philharmonic is a greed rec. Dennis makes great speakers for the money.

Sure it goes without saying buying used fir bang for buck. Good luck in search.

[Ken Robb]

I don't know that pointing the woofer cone at a speaker stand would really be a problem but why couldn't you point it to the side if necessary? Low frequencies are very nondirectional.

Going back to the idea of new speakers: there are so many tower speakers now offered with long enclosures that provide better bass than most "bookshelf" designs and they put tweeters/midrange drivers at ear level ala bookshelf speakers on stands. These would get you more bass than you have had without going with a sub. OTOH, if you got a sub and glued up your current enclosure you might be delighted. The sub presumably would have a crossover filtering very low, rattle-inducing frequencies from your Missions.

[Peter B]

Not long ago I picked up a pair of Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary bookshelf speakers. $499 via Music Direct. Supplemented w/ a Velodyne Minivee 8 subwoofer just to gently fill in the bottom. I've been pleasantly surprised. The Dentons have a beautiful, musical warm tone to my ears and the sub lets me dial in just enough bottom.

[lookout2015]

Haven't heard them personally but Elac speakers have been getting rave reviews in the audio press. Bargain priced.

I've had the Elac UB5s in my office for a couple months. It's a 15x15 room. They're very good for the price, in that size space. I'd originally expected to need a subwoofer with them but haven't added one yet - the bass delivery is pretty impressive for the size and I now am thinking just get more bike stuff instead of the subwoofer

[geordanh]

Audiophysic makes really nice speakers. The sparks maybe won't give you what you want in terms of absolutely low end range, but they all seem to have a bit of nice bump in the lower end that makes the bass seem larger than it is.

This is a reasonably fair price below. These are really nice sounding speakers and they image really, really well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Physic-Spark-Floor-Standing-Speakers-Audiophile-Made-in-Germany-/331947742471?hash=item4d49a09507:g:ivYAAOSwawpXuz0 h

[19wisconsin64]

It sounds like you could benefit from newer speakers. I've been an audiophile /stereo freak since the 70's...... Here's my 2 cents. Technology has come a long way in making speakers more life-like. Great speakers can be had for reasonable amounts of money that are far more accurate than speakers of the past. It will take your ear a little time to adjust to the new sound whatever you do get, and once you get used to the new better sound you'll be hooked.

You can get great new speakers, here's Audiophile Magazine's most recent suggestions: http://www.stereophile.com/content/2016-recommended-components-loudspeakers#WGm2RDrDf4RJfuGa.97

You can find great condition used speakers too on websites like Audiogon or eBay.

Personally I've found Magnepan to be the best for the money, especially second hand, and they don't need too much power to run. These can cost you between $600 or the MMG model and $2,200 for the 1.7i model. Amazing. Also, second hand or new, Triangle (French) or Usher (Korean) speakers are amazing too.

http://www.magnepan.com/

If you need a great new integrated amplifier cheap, consider a second hand Music Hall 25.2 or newer 25.3. Very detailed, very powerful, $250 to $500.

Good luck in your search!

[Ken Robb]

I love the sound of Magnapans but unless you get the bigger models they seem to be a little weak in the low bass range. They do really well with a good sub-woofer. I had a pair at home to demo years ago but they absolutely needed to be right in the middle of my room and pointed at one chair to get their wonderfully musical sound. Besides critical listening in one chair I wanted to hear background music while I read and my reading chair was off to the side of the MAGs where there was a null zone with almost no sound at all due to the front and rear sound propagation. Vandersteen Model 2ci Signatures were a better compromise for me. I still think Magnapans are wonderful if you can set them up correctly.It sounds like you could benefit from newer speakers. I've been an audiophile /stereo freak since the 70's...... Here's my 2 cents. Technology has come a long way in making speakers more life-like. Great speakers can be had for reasonable amounts of money that are far more accurate than speakers of the past. It will take your ear a little time to adjust to the new sound whatever you do get, and once you get used to the new better sound you'll be hooked.

You can get great new speakers, here's Audiophile Magazine's most recent suggestions: http://www.stereophile.com/content/2016-recommended-components-loudspeakers#WGm2RDrDf4RJfuGa.97

You can find great condition used speakers too on websites like Audiogon or eBay.

Personally I've found Magnepan to be the best for the money, especially second hand, and they don't need too much power to run. These can cost you between $600 or the MMG model and $2,200 for the 1.7i model. Amazing. Also, second hand or new, Triangle (French) or Usher (Korean) speakers are amazing too.

http://www.magnepan.com/

If you need a great new integrated amplifier cheap, consider a second hand Music Hall 25.2 or newer 25.3. Very detailed, very powerful, $250 to $500.

Good luck in your search!

[fignon's barber]

I've enjoyed a pair of B&W CDM1 NT speakers with a B&W ASW700 sub for the last 15 years. I remember doing an A/B comparison between this combo and a pair of floor standing B&W Nautilus speakers (no sub) that were 4x the price of the combo. Speakers/sub sounded better.

[Peter P.]

Sad to say, I managed to repair my speaker. I was seriously hoping to be in the market for new speakers!

I let the Gorilla Glue dry but made the mistake of not wiping it off sooner. I was left with a visible bead of whitish glue which I carefully removed with a chisel. I'm thinking I'll remove the screw as well and fill the hole with black silicone caulk if I can find it. What I thought was a crack was apparently just a mold artifact because both speakers have the exact same visible "crack".

The rattle is gone, the speakers sound fine, and no one is the wiser with the grills on.

Below is a photo before I removed the Gorilla Glue. After removal, you can't tell any difference from 2 feet.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

[fuzzalow]

Sad to say, I managed to repair my speaker. I was seriously hoping to be in the market for new speakers!

Go ahead and buy new speakers. Any audiophile would understand.

All this talk about fixing something, we'd just pretend we never heard it....fixed what?

[IJWS]

As another encouragement, KEF seems to be doing their annual sale of Q100 & Q300's. Now they are $299 & $399 RESPECTIVELY ON Amazon as well as KEF's direct website. I just received my Q Acoustics Concept 20's last Friday and while they sound great, I am very very curious to see what sounds better between the KEF and the Q Acoustics. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe Gorilla Glue WAS the best option!!! :crap:

[warren128]

I love the sound of Magnapans but unless you get the bigger models they seem to be a little weak in the low bass range. They do really well with a good sub-woofer. I had a pair at home to demo years ago but they absolutely needed to be right in the middle of my room and pointed at one chair to get their wonderfully musical sound. Besides critical listening in one chair I wanted to hear background music while I read and my reading chair was off to the side of the MAGs where there was a null zone with almost no sound at all due to the front and rear sound propagation. Vandersteen Model 2ci Signatures were a better compromise for me. I still think Magnapans are wonderful if you can set them up correctly.

I've had a pair of MMGs for about 20 years. I listened to them for most of those years by themselves (no sub), and they were fine for most of the music that I listen to. Their soundstage and imaging are amazing, acoustic guitar for example, sublime. IMO, they are the best bang for the buck in audiophile speakers. However, you need to understand the setup requirements (needing space behind them, precise positioning, needing a strong amplifier, etc.). The MMG frequency response is 50hz - 26khz.

After I closed my listening room recently, I moved the MMGs upstairs to my living room, where I paired them with an Infinity subwoofer that is tuned to cut off at 50hz. This really added the extra ooomph that really balances out the sound on the low end. I'm enjoying then all over again!

Just my .02 :)

[ffnz]

My wife and I moved from a house to a condominium two years ago, which meant that I had to reform my longstanding audiophile ways out of respect for our neighbors. Unfortunately lower frequency waves can carry easily through floors and walls and can create bothersome resonances in other units - there are not easy/inexpensive ways to block low frequencies.

Some good suggestions above, and to a certain extent the answer depends on what type of music you enjoy and what qualities matter most to you. In a small room, it can be difficult to have accurate bass reproduction, but near-field listening (as mentioned) with great monitors can be a totally engrossing experience, particularly because it removes room interference from the equation. The first time my wife heard a near field set up I had years ago, she cried.

In our case, we use OK powered speakers (audioengine) for casual listening around the house, and I use a headphone system for more critical listening - world class performance including bass for much less money than a standard system.

The peeps at audiocircle, audiogon, and audioasylum (if it is still running) would certainly chime in to a post with your inquiry. The folks at audiocircle seemed the nicest and most helpful to me.

[jlwdm]

I am using bookshelf speakers for the first time other than as surround speakers. I am using Linn Majik 109s but I am using a REL sub. For small speakers I am a believer in using a sub that costs more than the small speakers.

I think Friday I will fly to Denver to go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival. I have an amp made by a one man company in Sweden and he will be at the show so I might as well go check things out.

Jeff