Colnago C60 - Why do I prefer riding my other bike?

[R332]

This is a semi-serious question although I am struggling with exactly how to explain it in this post.

I have a C60 that fits me perfectly and is built with very nice parts. The bike oozes class and it is a pleasure to ride, whether spinning around with friends, racing or doing a century. If this was my only bike the conversation would end here.

My other bike is a made in Taiwan carbon machine with a similar collection of nice parts and exactly the same wheels and tires as the C60. Both bikes are within a few MMs in terms of touch points (saddle height, setback, saddle-to-bar-drop, etc) so I can transition from one to the other with minimal acclimatization required.

For some reason that I can't pinpoint I prefer riding the cheaper Taiwanese-built machine. Probably the most technical reason I can give is that it feels more likely and energetic while the C60 feels a bit dead, kind of muted and not very playful. The irony here is that based on geometry the C60 should be every bit as responsive and quick handling as the other bike but it just doesn't feel that way.

Am I crazy? Do any other C60 owners feel the same way? People say the C60 has a certain magic but I am starting to wonder if I would prefer a mass produced aggressive/race frame more than the C60?

Maybe looking at the geo of both bikes will illuminate the difference?

C60 = size 58 Sloping

Other bike = size 590

[cinema]

what's the other bike? considering the lugged construction of the c60 i would assume the frame is stronger but heavier. also not sure what the head tube angle on c60 is, but if it's slacker, just a little bit makes a huge difference. What I can't deduce about the c60 from the supplied geo is hta, and thus, trail. maybe another c60 guy can chime in

[beeatnik]

Maybe you've never ridden a steel bika?

[R332]

what's the other bike? considering the lugged construction of the c60 i would assume the frame is stronger but heavier. also not sure what the head tube angle on c60 is, but if it's slacker, just a little bit makes a huge difference. What I can't deduce about the c60 from the supplied geo is hta, and thus, trail. maybe another c60 guy can chime in

HTA on my size 58s is 73.12 degrees.

Yes the C60 frame is a bit heavier than the other one, maybe 300g?

[cinema]

so it seems to me there are probably legitimate differences between the bikes in regards to overall build/weight and geometry, although you may fit well on both.

[cadence90]

The Taiwan frame is monocoque, right?

Have you ridden other monocoque carbon frames to compare to the C60?
Have you ridden other lugged carbon frames to compare to the C60?

[sandyrs]

What is the other bike?

[oldpotatoe]

Who knows, it's subjective. I had a customer who had a Calfee Tetra, then a Colnago C50(actually bought 2, one and a spare-truth), then a Parlee,
Z-1..then he bought an identical to the Parlee Moots RSL..yup, lots of $...

Of the 4, he preferred...the Colnago..sold the RSL, said it 'didn't fit right', even tho identical to the Parlee..so who knows. :p

[tigoat]

It’s hard to say, as it is a subjective thing to experience for each rider. Perhaps, the cheaper bike is more responsive because it is lighter and constructed differently so resonates uniquely. I would suggest that leave that C60 alone for a while (a month?) and then come back to it later to see if you will experience it differently. Sometimes riding a new bike that responds differently could be perceived as better. Nonetheless, this would be a good example of having a more expensive bike does not necessary mean it rides better than a cheaper alternative.

[Peter P.]

You prefer the Taiwan bike because it's cheaper.

You read that right.

My experience has been, we tend to covet and baby our very expensive bikes. While I can't put my finger on it, we tend to ride our expensive bikes differently. We have more "fun" riding something we don't have to treat like heirloom china.

[breakingaway89]

What is Other Bike?

[veloduffer]

I would assume that the frames flex differently largely due to construction and somewhat by geometry. I have owned several carbon bikes, including top end Trek Madone, Parlee Z5 and many others. I prefer the Parlee - it has a slightly livelier feel but still stiff enough to feel like instant acceleration. Similarly with titanium, owned nearly every major Ti bike (Seven, Spectrum, Moots, even original Merlin and Litespeed) but my favorite is my current Eriksen. Very similar in ride to the Parlee.

It doesn't make them better bikes than the others. It just resonates with the way I turn the pedals.

[El Chaba]

If it just doesn't click for you, it just doesn't...A Colnago really needs to be set up with plenty of weight over the front wheel so it is often necessary to drop a size down and a stem size up or the handling as Ernesto intended really doesn't come alive....

[uber]

I have a C60 and really enjoy it. Compared to a Pinarello F8, it does not feel as aggressive. Another C60 owner I know has both and relays a similar experience. It is a comfortable ride, but responds according to how much I am able to push it. It feels like a very secure ride and is predictable for me on the downhills. A lighter bike would feel livelier, and other bikes feel more dialed in for aggressive riding. This bike is not going to be responsible for me not going fast enough. It is possible you might enjoy the Colnago V1R as it is lighter and a monocoque design? Many people like what they are used to, so I don't know if that is part of your experience. And I agree that just because something is expensive does not make it a better product. There is no reason why you can't enjoy both bikes and the different riding experiences you have on them.

[soulspinner]

As mentioned above, maybe the lighter frame is less stiff and more lively. I tend to prefer a lively bike to an uber stiff one. Maybe that's all it is.

[reggiebaseball]

58s is one size too large for you, IMO.

compared to your other bike the ETT is 1.5CM longer, that is huge,

It will make your C60 feel like driving a bus, in comparison

Your other bike likely has a longer stem, more of your weight over the front wheel, more lively steering.

When you get to bikes in sizes as large as this, the seat and head tube angles matter, it depends on how your body is built. I have long legs and many "taiwan carbon" bikes when they get big maintain 73 ST angles that do not work for me - but your are built different.

I would try a 56S, or 60-61 trad.

[fa63]

I rented a C60 for a day while vacationing in Seattle (Element Cycles), and had a chance to ride it for 55 miles. I brought my own saddle and pedals, and the bike was set up within mm of my actual measurements. 120 mm stem on a 54s frame. Bike was set up with Campy Super Record and Vittoria Open Corsa CX tires (320 tpi).

While it was a nice bike, it felt muted, maybe too much so. On the other hand, I rented a Giant TCR not too long ago, and that was quite the revelation. So much so that I actually strongly considered buying one.

[Bob Ross]

what's the other bike?
What is the other bike?
What is Other Bike?

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/47534156.jpg

[reggiebaseball]

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/47534156.jpg

Bianchi

[mkbk]

Just because others like the fit and ride of a Colnago does not mean you will. Trust yourself, cycling requires you to interface with a machine and sometimes it clicks. I ride stock bike frames, I want to feel how a builder/ manufacturer intends their type of build to ride and some don't work. Another poster gave good advice, take month off, switch back, see what you feel.

As a side note. my Honey started riding her new C60 last Sunday. She rides. She has used descriptive words like lively, stiff and muted over bumps for the first time in all her many "pro" frame riding experiences. So far so good.

[maverick_1]

For some reason that I can't pinpoint I prefer riding the cheaper Taiwanese-built machine. Probably the most technical reason I can give is that it feels more likely and energetic while the C60 feels a bit dead, kind of muted and not very playful. The irony here is that based on geometry the C60 should be every bit as responsive and quick handling as the other bike but it just doesn't feel that way.



I agree with reggiebaseball.
The C60 you're currently on is one size too large for you.
Had similar experience previously on a C50 which was a size too large for me. Bike felt lethargic, boring and unresponsive.

Cheers

[enr1co]

compared to your other bike the ETT is 1.5CM longer, that is huge,
It will make your C60 feel like driving a bus, in comparison

This ^.

Also, guessing that you had owned/been riding the preferred taiwanese bike prior to getting the C60? Possibly just more accustomed to it?

Fwiw, I have a C60 underway. Traded in my C59 for the same size - loved the ride feel, fit of the 59 which was felt to be "perfect" for ME but was seduced by a yr end sale price. Not expecting any huge difference in ride, comfort, performance except for that the new color should make me faster ;)
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa357/enr1co/Mobile%20Uploads/image_1.jpeg

[mkbk]

I have done one stem swap and see a bar change and spacer/top cap removal in the near future. It all adds up to how her bike feels.

[sandyrs]

Bianchi

Thanks

http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/road/endurance-racing/infinito-cv-chorus/

Italian hands laying up the carbon do not impart any sort of pixie dust upon your frame. The frame that fits better will ride better. Any benefit the frame provides is very secondary to fit.

[Nags&Ducs]

This is purely from my experience and it doesn't specifically involve the C60. But having put lots of miles on a C40, Ext C, and an alum Mix, I feel that Colnagos have a tendency to handle slower, almost "sedated" when compared to other brands. It gives off the impression that it is too muted when at slow to moderate speeds, but when pushed harder and at descending speeds, there isn't a better handling bike. Again this is my humble opinion and experience. It's something that some riders may not like or ever get used to. I absolutely love the way my Colnagos ride.

[Rusty Luggs]

I agree with reggiebaseball.
The C60 you're currently on is one size too large for you.
Had similar experience previously on a C50 which was a size too large for me. Bike felt lethargic, boring and unresponsive.

Cheers

Agree too. Look at the reach/stack - 56s Colnago "fit" is much closer to the frame you like better. Fit not just about being able to achieve contact points.
Weight distribution is a big part of how a bike feels from a handling perspective also, IMHO. My experience with race bikes on the more stable side of the spectrum is that they only handle well with some weight up front.

[eippo1]

Agree too. Look at the reach/stack - 56s Colnago "fit" is much closer to the frame you like better. Fit not just about being able to achieve contact points.
Weight distribution is a big part of how a bike feels from a handling perspective also, IMHO. My experience with race bikes on the more stable side of the spectrum is that they only handle well with some weight up front.

I'd agree with others to try one at a smaller size. I usually ride a bike with a 56.5 top tube and a 110 or 120mm stem, which would logically point me to a 54s Colnago. However, I found I most enjoyed the ride on a 52s with a 120. Haven't owned a Colnago, but I have taken more than a few on extended test rides so that I could speak with first-hand knowledge when selling at the shop.

[Idris Icabod]

This is funny as this is my experience. I have a C59 in size 56s with Super Record but it sits in the garage pretty much unloved. I ride an 11 year old Moots Compact SL 95%+ of my road rides. I can't pin point why the Colnago just doesn't scratch my itch because I had a C50 many years ago that was my favourite bike of all time but stupidly sold it on a whim. I think I like the ride of Ti better, when I ride the Colnago it is perhaps too stiff.

[R332]

Thanks for all of the replies. Where to begin??

The Taiwan frame is monocoque, right?
Have you ridden other monocoque carbon frames to compare to the C60?
Have you ridden other lugged carbon frames to compare to the C60?

It is a Bianchi Infinito CV. I wasn't necessarily trying to make it a secret but I didn't want to take attention away from the C60. As you know the Infinito is more of a Gran Fondo / Endurance bike which makes it even more puzzling why it feels more 'racy' than the C60! I have owned half a dozen high-end, racy, road frames in CF mono and Ti.


58s is one size too large for you, IMO.

compared to your other bike the ETT is 1.5CM longer, that is huge,

It will make your C60 feel like driving a bus, in comparison

Your other bike likely has a longer stem, more of your weight over the front wheel, more lively steering.

When you get to bikes in sizes as large as this, the seat and head tube angles matter, it depends on how your body is built. I have long legs and many "taiwan carbon" bikes when they get big maintain 73 ST angles that do not work for me - but your are built different.

I would try a 56S, or 60-61 trad.

Fair points and I value your feedback but I am not so sure it is actually too large. To get the saddle-to-bar-drop that my neck can tolerate for 4+ hours I need a frame with a stack of around 600mm. For this spec the C60 is spot-on and I still have plenty of post extension and the bike is set-up with a 130mm stem. You are right that the C60 feels like a bit of a bus compared to the Bianchi. One thing that might be a bit unique is that I don't run much saddle setback on any of my bikes so a steeper ST isn't a problem. Is ETT really that important as long as a decent size stem is used?

I agree with reggiebaseball.
The C60 you're currently on is one size too large for you.
Had similar experience previously on a C50 which was a size too large for me. Bike felt lethargic, boring and unresponsive.

I could try a C60 56s or 61 Trad but if I am going to move to a new frame I am tempted to try another racy CF mono model. Also, with the 56s I would need to run approx. 30mm of HS spacers :(

Look at the reach/stack - 56s Colnago "fit" is much closer to the frame you like better. Fit not just about being able to achieve contact points.
Weight distribution is a big part of how a bike feels from a handling perspective also, IMHO. My experience with race bikes on the more stable side of the spectrum is that they only handle well with some weight up front.

Agreed except that the Stack is a bit of the low side for my preferred fit. My C60 has a 130mm stem and the saddle is most of the way forward on the rails so there should be plenty of weight up front. It feels great at 40mph banking through sweepers, bunny hopping cattle cards and just generally flying along but the whole time it feels a bit lazy and never encourages me to push harder or jump into a sprint....it is more of an obedient friend.


One measurement that I can't find for the C560 is wheelbase and I keep thinking that the C60 is probably very long compared to most of the other bikes I am looking at.

Regarding frame stiffness (HT & BB areas) maybe I have it backwards - my brain says that a super stiff frame will feel more lively/fast/responsive but a few comments seem to suggest that the softer frames are more lively feeling :confused:

[reggiebaseball]

OK,
Different bodies are different, so I cannot "fit" you over the internet, in fact I could not "fit" you on a bike in person,

I just have these opinions because we have all gone through similar things to you when we found our personal bike fit.

I am so particular that a cm one way or the other would not work, and compensating with stem or this or that is not the same.

Even though I can put my butt and hands in the same place on two frames, doesn't make them handle the same.

From my perspective, that Colnago is too long in the TT for you.
An Italian racing frame "fits" when you use a decent-long stem and a setback post IMO. That is what gives ME proper balance on frames that are large (I am a size larger than you).

Now, you dont have much setback on any of your bikes so maybe you have different proportions between leg and torso than me, I dunno..


What I DO know, is that I ride a bike with a 585mm top tube , and use a 146mm stem.

Riding a very nice Moots with a 595TT and a 130 stem felt AWFUL, like driving a bus. Big and SLOW, like I was riding on a Chopper instead of a race bike.

Riding a very nice Look 595 that had too steep of a ST and was just the wrong geometry even though the contact points were right, not good either - the back end would jump around.

Riding a cheap Orbea AL that was to my preferred spec felt fast, racey, and in control - awesome!

I asked Dave Kirk to build me a bike- he took my body numbers and he designed to the same numbers as the Moots!
Now, he knows bike fit, but I had to cancel the build because I know MY Fit....

If you bought your Colnago from a dealer, and are looking to spend on a new frame, I think you should ask him to build up a 56s to your fit and let you try it, just to be sure.

I KNOW on paper it seems like the Colnago is the right size, but what you are describing, is EXACTLY what it is like when the bike is the right size on paper but not the right size under your butt.


At the extreme end of the size spectrum, manufacturers make compromises. Many dont understand larger riders, and as I am describing here there are many different "larger" riders. I may be built like an orangutang and you may be built like a tRex, but we both "ostensibly" fit on a size 59 or 60 stock bike,
but do we really?

I can tell you I would fit on a stock 60 pegoretti, but not on a stock 59 or 61, because you just learn it over time.

After a while you can look at the geometry on paper of a bike for sale, and save yourself the lusting if you know your "fit", and you can even make other bikes that are slightly different fit with adjusting things like stem or bar reach, but that is down the road.

[beeatnik]

If it just doesn't click for you, it just doesn't...A Colnago really needs to be set up with plenty of weight over the front wheel so it is often necessary to drop a size down and a stem size up or the handling as Ernesto intended really doesn't come alive....

Is that still the case? Mr. Colnago personally fit my pal and put him on a 58 trad with a 100mm stem. My buddy and I have nearly identical dimensions. I ride a 56 trad w/ a 120 stem. Also, I know a few Colnagoites who have gone away from the smaller frame trend as they consider a size up more stable.

58 Trad by Mr. Ernesto Colnago
https://c6.staticflickr.com/4/3779/9680148421_9444aedb3c_b.jpg

My 56
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8894/28720405190_9bc88a48ce_o.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Short stems make any bike feel like butt.

[jlwdm]

Short stems make any bike feel like butt.

Some of us don't have a choice. I ride 62 cm and larger frames with 72 degree seat angles and still need a saddle with a setback of 25mm. But my upper body is short for my height - so 100mm stem is as long as it gets.

Jeff

[ColonelJLloyd]

Short stems make any bike feel like butt.

Well, this one is ripe for the picking.

[mg2ride]

Whatever the reason, don't fight it.

Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love. regardless of the reason.

FWIW and if I had to guess,
You probably spend more time thinking about the bike on the C60 and less time enjoying the ride.

[weisan]

You are over-thinking this.

No bike and I repeat, no bike.... no matter what its pedigree is...is 100% meh-proof. :D

[R332]

From my perspective, that Colnago is too long in the TT for you.
An Italian racing frame "fits" when you use a decent-long stem and a setback post IMO. That is what gives ME proper balance on frames that are large (I am a size larger than you).

I KNOW on paper it seems like the Colnago is the right size, but what you are describing, is EXACTLY what it is like when the bike is the right size on paper but not the right size under your butt.

I won't fight you on this because the long ETT is quite likely the root cause of my 'bus driver' feeling! Everything else (frame stiffness, HT angle, etc) suggest this should be a racy and agile feeling bike, long(ish) chainstays / wheelbase notwithstanding .

I still need to do more thinking about how bike fit can be quite different even if the 'touch points' are +/- the same but that is from another day ;)


Whatever the reason, don't fight it.

Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love. regardless of the reason.

FWIW and if I had to guess,
You probably spend more time thinking about the bike on the C60 and less time enjoying the ride.

This is pretty much where I am at. The C60 is a stunning bike but if I don't love riding it I should sell it and move on.

Based on everything that has been discussed to this point how well does everyone think the most boring/common UCI race bike would fit me?


Size 58
Seat-Tube Length, B-B Center to Top 522mm
Top-Tube Length, Horizontal 582mm
B-B Drop 67.5mm
Chain-Stay Length 407mm
Seat-Tube Angle 73°
Head-Tube Angle 73.5°
Fork Rake 43mm
Trail 56mm
Front-Center 605mm
Wheelbase 1003mm
Head-Tube Length 190mm
Reach 402mm
Stack 591mm

*I would probably use a zero offset post

[beeatnik]

R332, did you find your way here from Weight Weenies?

Bienvenido!

[sandyrs]

I won't fight you on this because the long ETT is quite likely the root cause of my 'bus driver' feeling! Everything else (frame stiffness, HT angle, etc) suggest this should be a racy and agile feeling bike, long(ish) chainstays / wheelbase notwithstanding .

I still need to do more thinking about how bike fit can be quite different even if the 'touch points' are +/- the same but that is from another day ;)




This is pretty much where I am at. The C60 is a stunning bike but if I don't love riding it I should sell it and move on.

Based on everything that has been discussed to this point how well does everyone think the most boring/common UCI race bike would fit me?


Size 58
Seat-Tube Length, B-B Center to Top 522mm
Top-Tube Length, Horizontal 582mm
B-B Drop 67.5mm
Chain-Stay Length 407mm
Seat-Tube Angle 73°
Head-Tube Angle 73.5°
Fork Rake 43mm
Trail 56mm
Front-Center 605mm
Wheelbase 1003mm
Head-Tube Length 190mm
Reach 402mm
Stack 591mm

*I would probably use a zero offset post

Dude, just keep the bike that you already love to ride.

And with the longer reach you'd need a 1cm shorter stem.

[R332]

Dude, just keep the bike that you already love to ride.

And with the longer reach you'd need a 1cm shorter stem.

That would be sensible but N+1 and logistically I really need two road bikes.

Regarding the geo I listed for the bike that could replace the C60 it would still need a 130mm stem because I am going to move to a 140mm on the Bianchi so the extra frame ETT is probably a good thing - it sits in between the C60 and the B.

[Kirk007]

no don't sell the C60. It's just my size but I just bought a C50 and can't afford another ; ).

I agree with others re it probably being a size too big. I rode a 60s C60 which according to all on-line calculators was "my size" and it was completely uninteresting. A 58s was a completely different experience.

[chazmtb]

The c60 feels stiff but a little muted and not as connected and lively as a monocoque. I wonder if that's a trait of the lugged carbon.

[pdmtong]

reggie's point is that even if your touch points are right (reach drop saddle) where the bike sits under you in that fit envelope will tell the tale.

presumably you have ridden a lot based on the bikes you have. if you cant make the C60 work by changing stems, its not the right size or bike for you.

[wallymann]

reggie's point is that even if your touch points are right (reach drop saddle) where the bike sits under you in that fit envelope will tell the tale.

check out the interplay between contact points/position and frame geometry:

http://brown-snout.com/cycling/tech/bikegeo.gif

[Waldo]

The c60 feels stiff but a little muted and not as connected and lively as a monocoque. I wonder if that's a trait of the lugged carbon.

No. It's your subjective perception of your c60.

[FlashUNC]

reggie's point is that even if your touch points are right (reach drop saddle) where the bike sits under you in that fit envelope will tell the tale.

presumably you have ridden a lot based on the bikes you have. if you cant make the C60 work by changing stems, its not the right size or bike for you.

Pretty much my thought as well.

[Elefantino]

I had the same experience with a Meivici. Same contact points but angles just off.

Will be a superbike for someone else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ken Robb]

This is a semi-serious question although I am struggling with exactly how to explain it in this post.

I have a C60 that fits me perfectly and is built with very nice parts. The bike oozes class and it is a pleasure to ride, whether spinning around with friends, racing or doing a century. If this was my only bike the conversation would end here.

My other bike is a made in Taiwan carbon machine with a similar collection of nice parts and exactly the same wheels and tires as the C60. Both bikes are within a few MMs in terms of touch points (saddle height, setback, saddle-to-bar-drop, etc) so I can transition from one to the other with minimal acclimatization required.

For some reason that I can't pinpoint I prefer riding the cheaper Taiwanese-built machine. Probably the most technical reason I can give is that it feels more likely and energetic while the C60 feels a bit dead, kind of muted and not very playful. The irony here is that based on geometry the C60 should be every bit as responsive and quick handling as the other bike but it just doesn't feel that way.

Am I crazy? Do any other C60 owners feel the same way? People say the C60 has a certain magic but I am starting to wonder if I would prefer a mass produced aggressive/race frame more than the C60?

Maybe looking at the geo of both bikes will illuminate the difference?

C60 = size 58 Sloping

Other bike = size 590

I see the taiwan bike has longer chainstays. When all else is equal (almost never happens, does it?) I prefer bikes with longer chainstays and you maybe do as well.

[cmg]

before you get rid of th c60 have you matched the contact points to same dimensions of the bianchi? put the saddle in the same the horizontal distance (setback) and verticle distance from the bottom brackets as the bianchi, put the bars in the same relationship.

"My C60 has a 130mm stem and the saddle is most of the way forward on the rails so there should be plenty of weight up front." don't mind the aesthetics, just place the bars and saddle in the same position as the bianchi and see if you like the ride. if you need 30mm of spacers under the stem or a 120mm lenght, setback/zero setback post so be it.