Ot: Finally excited for a new car....maybe.....

[Tickdoc]

I'm getting close to making the keep it or get something new time of car ownership.

I saw this posted today and (except for the price). This looks like a nice "one more and done" car to own.

Good wagons are a dying breed here in the us and I was excited first, then unhappy to see that the glorious new Volvo s90 wagon is coming this way only in jacked up trail disguise only cx version( at least for now).

BMW has already bailed on the us except for the smaller overpriced 3 series wagon (imo), and Audi has done the same as Volvo and only gives us the all road jacked up version.

Then Mercedes stated the same intention with their new e class wagon, but this article suggests otherwise.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/auto/2017-mercedes-benz-e400-wagon/preview/

Is this the last great grand touring estate sportwagon coming our way?

I'm excited because I just spent two weeks in a new e class loaner while some repairs on mine were made, and it is a really nice car. That one was a four cylinder turbo that was completely adequate for me, and the new wagon will be a turbo v6.

The interior is crazy nice in the new ones. It is also much quieter than the outgoing car. I don't care for the wheel/pad control the car interface thingy, but it's not a deal breaker. (Volvo nailed it with their new interior and the big iPad like controller)

Thoughts?

https://cnet4.cbsistatic.com/img/v1RrBUelZyCpQVlgzQzbQEE8vqs=/102x335:2937x1929/970x0/2016/09/19/2c7ad721-3078-4ac7-ab60-fab66cfc7b0f/45-2017-mercedes-benz-e400-wagon-cp.jpg

[EDS]

Volvo has two non-XC wagons now. New V90 looks nice, but expensive.

[MattTuck]

Don't blame the car companies. The CAFE standards create all sorts of weird incentives for importers to do certain things with their cars to get them classified as SUVs for overly complex reasons related to fleet mileage and import duties and all that jazz.

If you're unhappy with the current bunch of wagons, you can blame domestic companies, and their cronies in Washington.

Sorry, had to get that out of the way. I happened to be on the Volvo site, and their new V90 wagon also looks pretty sharp. Though it won't be out until 2017.

[Tickdoc]

Don't blame the car companies. The CAFE standards create all sorts of weird incentives for importers to do certain things with their cars to get them classified as SUVs for overly complex reasons related to fleet mileage and import duties and all that jazz.

If you're unhappy with the current bunch of wagons, you can blame domestic companies, and their cronies in Washington.

Sorry, had to get that out of the way. I happened to be on the Volvo site, and their new V90 wagon also looks pretty sharp. Though it won't be out until 2017.


Yes it sucks, the whole regulation thing. Makes me sick when I go to or see pics from Europe and everyone is tooling around in beautiful wagons.

I'll wait. These two ( the merc and Volvo) look very similar spec wise and would make for a fun comparison.

[alessandro]

Don't blame the car companies. The CAFE standards create all sorts of weird incentives for importers to do certain things with their cars to get them classified as SUVs for overly complex reasons related to fleet mileage and import duties and all that jazz.

If you're unhappy with the current bunch of wagons, you can blame domestic companies, and their cronies in Washington.

Sorry, had to get that out of the way. I happened to be on the Volvo site, and their new V90 wagon also looks pretty sharp. Though it won't be out until 2017.

Yes it sucks, the whole regulation thing. Makes me sick when I go to or see pics from Europe and everyone is tooling around in beautiful wagons.

I'll wait. These two ( the merc and Volvo) look very similar spec wise and would make for a fun comparison.

I blame the car companies. And the American motoring public for embracing those practical minivans as well as SUVs, and for buying fewer and fewer manual transmissions every year.:mad:

[Gsinill]

If you're unhappy with the current bunch of wagons, you can blame domestic companies, and their cronies in Washington.


Really?
My take as a wagon loving European expat is that wagons are generally not liked by Americans and considered ugly.
As with many things, the crowd here is an exception, but I'd guarantee that if you asked random strangers on the street, less than 10% would be in favor of station wagons.
Pure supply and demand related IMHO.

[Tickdoc]

Really?
My take as a wagon loving European expat is that wagons are generally not liked by Americans and considered ugly.
As with many things, the crowd here is an exception, but I'd guarantee that if you asked random strangers on the street, less than 10% would be in favor of station wagons.
Pure supply and demand related IMHO.

Yes, but beyond that, they have made it expensive as hell to get them approved to sell in the us and the car companies are just not sending them here. It's ludicrous because they already are making them, both left and right drive models.

They are so much more practical, better gas mileage, easier ingress/egress, and stylistically superior, imo. Maybe it's just me.

[adrien]

I have an e350 wagon as my daily driver. It's 5 years old, and a luxury (rare) and has all the driver's aide doo-dads and none of the boy-racer stapled-on sports car silliness. Has 49k miles. 3.5 v6 a little over 300hp.

Truly an incredible car. Comfy for a 12-hour drive, and I can put my bike in the back with the seats down without removing any wheels. It goes like hell when you flog it, and still will hit 30mpg on the highway. Also amazing -- better than a previous audi -- in the snow. MB has solved AWD. Plus it's a real car, not a truck with electro-trickery trying to keep it on the road.

Just bought an extended warrantee, though it may not need it. It's had exactly one warrantee repair in its life, which amounted to a software update. Best car I've ever owned.

If you can stomach the price, it's well worth it.

[MattTuck]

Really?
My take as a wagon loving European expat is that wagons are generally not liked by Americans and considered ugly.
As with many things, the crowd here is an exception, but I'd guarantee that if you asked random strangers on the street, less than 10% would be in favor of station wagons.
Pure supply and demand related IMHO.

No doubt that the market could develop more. People have, for the most part, replaced the family station wagon and mini-van with SUVs and cross over SUVs.

But the kind of cars I envision when I hear people talk about wagons now, are not the kind that are looking for an update to the station-wagon of yore. They're looking for a wagon configuration of a sports car or sedan.

Here's some more reading on the subject if you're interested, some of it quite old.

http://jalopnik.com/5948172/how-the-government-killed-fuel-efficient-cars-and-trucks
http://www.autonews.com/article/19980427/ANA/804270755/sport-wagon-trend-could-mean-the-end-of-two-cafe-categories

Bottom line is that the market could be developed here, if the incentives were right. The wagon format is much more practical than a sedan, in my opinion. I think that 'consumer preferences' may play a small role in that, but let's remember that consumer preferences can be altered via marketing and other signals in the market.

I have an e350 wagon as my daily driver. It's 5 years old, and a luxury (rare) and has all the driver's aide doo-dads and none of the boy-racer stapled-on sports car silliness. Has 49k miles. 3.5 v6 a little over 300hp.

Truly an incredible car. Comfy for a 12-hour drive, and I can put my bike in the back with the seats down without removing any wheels. It goes like hell when you flog it, and still will hit 30mpg on the highway. Also amazing -- better than a previous audi -- in the snow. MB has solved AWD. Plus it's a real car, not a truck with electro-trickery trying to keep it on the road.

Just bought an extended warrantee, though it may not need it. It's had exactly one warrantee repair in its life, which amounted to a software update. Best car I've ever owned.

If you can stomach the price, it's well worth it.

Damn, my Outback is 6 years old and has 115K miles on it. With that few miles, I'd hope it doesn't have any issues.

[pasadena]

The only reasons wagons are not sold is dealers don't want them. They all want as many SUV's as they can get.
High demand, and higher profit margins. It's a no brainer for the US dealers.

If there was a demand, the manufacturers would bring wagons here. There is no gov conspiracy.

The Chinese Volvos are nice looking but that giant, pretty screen does not function very well and I question the reliability of a supercharged AND turbocharged motor. One forced induction system is complicated enough, but two on a brand that doesn't have a history or a mediocre one in reliability...

Mercedes is about as reliable as a meth head, and by the time you add leather and anything meaningful, you are $15K above msrp.
Gorgeous interiors though.
E class wagons are huge. Good room but the current ones look pretty homely.
The 2017 looks very Audi-like and very pretty.

The new 2017 Kia Optima Wagon is gorgeous, priced right and feature rich. I would love to own one. But, it's a Euro market vehicle with no plans to bring it here.
Again, the US crossover fever is to blame.
http://www.musclecarszone.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2015-Kia-Sportspace-Concept-Red-04-2015-Geneva-Motor-Show.jpg


2017 Audi Allroad looks great. Based on the new MQB A4 avant, but just like all the germans, you have to stomach the pricing strategy to get a decently equipped one. Looks great inside and out, and Audi is #3 in reliability right now.

I agree with Gsinill, the vast majority hate wagons and think they are ugly and old fashioned.
Subaru 'nor-eastern' lifestyle pockets aside, not much interest in them (even Subaru calls all their wagons "SUV"s)

Crossovers are dominating, and I like them too but as a wagon owner, I wish I had more options. It's a bummer.

[batman1425]

Gas is too cheap here for a wagon market to develop. With a wagon, your average family in Europe gets nearly all the functionality of an SUV with out the taxes or fuel economy associated cost problems. The popularity of the "compact" SUV in the US in large part due to the fuel price spikes 5-7 years ago. Folks didn't want to give up their SUVs but couldn't afford to drive a 18mpg combined vehicle at $4/gallon. Rav4, CRV, Escape, etc. to the rescue, and these things are still selling like hotcakes. People have realized they can do just fine with a Rav4/CRV/Escape/Forester/etc instead of the Land Cruser, Expedition, Navigator, Suburban, etc. and save a ton on fuel with MPG ratings in the high 20's to low 30's for some of them.

Put gas at $5+/gallon like it is in Europe, and your average American will be looking for a good reason to keep even a Rav4 on the road. Hence the popularity of the fuel efficient hatchbacks and wagons.

Until we start paying European prices for Fuel, there's no reason for whole sale change in preference to wagons in this country. Which bums me out because I love wagons - my last 3 cars were of the ilk.

[FlashUNC]

Americans want SUVs/CUVs.

[tumbler]

If there was a demand, the manufacturers would bring wagons here. There is no gov conspiracy.

This.
Americans want SUVs/CUVs.
And this.

There is no shortage of love for sportwagons on the internet or among enthusiasts, but when it comes to signing the papers, most Americans are going to choose the minivan with the sliding doors, built-in vacuum, and 39 cup holders or the SUV that sits higher, isn't a minivan, and still has 38 cup holders.

[FlashUNC]

Audi is a perfect example.

Couldn't give away their A3 hatchback. They convert it to a smaller A4 sedan, and they can't keep 'em on the lot.

The hatch is easily the superior vehicle to live with daily, but Americans love their sedans and their big people haulers.

Wagons/hatches....meh.

[Gsinill]

...before I will import one of those from Europe - last model '95 W124 300TD.

http://blog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/wp-content/uploads/748873_1362329_3578_2350_A90F13771.jpg

In my book, possibly the best car ever built...
Not to discourage Tickdoc or trying to offend anybody owning a newer MB, but despite being a huge fan of the older ones, I think they went downhill starting in the mid 90s.
The last "real" Mercedes IMHO was the R129 which was discontinued in 2002.
Just my 2 cents and of course highly subjective... ;)

[adrien]

Mercedes is about as reliable as a meth head, and by the time you add leather and anything meaningful, you are $15K above msrp.
Gorgeous interiors though.
E class wagons are huge. Good room but the current ones look pretty homely.
The 2017 looks very Audi-like and very pretty.

Crossovers are dominating, and I like them too but as a wagon owner, I wish I had more options. It's a bummer.

Can't really comment as I've not dealt with a meth-head. Mercedes reliability is patchy. The cars, especially German-made, are very reliable. This is on a data set in an extended business of about 20, over the last 5 years. Mostly e class, a couple of C-class and a couple of SLs. The SUVs (especially the American-made monster one) are where they seem much worse.

I checked out an Allroad recently. It's very small -- on par with a Golf inside.

[velotrack]

Mercedes won't sell a stick, but it's hard to deny the interior. Or the price. I'll give the lack of wagons to a lack of general public interest. Sure, everyone on this forum wants a wagon, but really, the general public wants something a little higher up...

[sjbraun]

Yes, but beyond that, they have made it expensive as hell to get them approved to sell in the us and the car companies are just not sending them here. It's ludicrous because they already are making them, both left and right drive models.

They are so much more practical, better gas mileage, easier ingress/egress, and stylistically superior, imo. Maybe it's just me.

How have "they" made getting euro wagons approved for sale more expensive than euro sedans? Seem to be plenty of Foreign cars on the roads.

[MattTuck]

Americans want SUVs/CUVs.

That is a result, not the cause, of several decades of accumulated policy (both intentional and unintentional), market conditions, advertising/marketing and product offerings.

If a car company figures out that they can make more money by selling a bigger car (SUV) for more money, you'll find them quite keen to find ways to make people 'want' such an automobile.

To say things like "Americans want x" ignores the reality that the manufacturers of x have a hand in shaping consumer wants. And as such, are capable of shifting said wants if it was in their interest to do so.

As it is now, wagons are a niche product (with low volumes) that makes it hard to justify marketing costs to ignite demand, and thus demand continues to whither. It is a feedback cycle that has contributed, over years, to the decline.

[Onno]

I like this thread because it makes me feel like I'm not alone in the (American) world in yearning for a car that doesn't seem to be available here now or in the foreseeable future: an affordable AWD wagon with good or great fuel economy. There are some CUVs that kind of fit the bill, but every time I look at one with an eye towards owning one, I feel as though I'm betraying some fundamental part of myself--the sane, practical, Dutch side, that wonders why you need all that extra metal and weight without getting any more room inside.

[ripvanrando]

...before I will import one of those from Europe - last model '95 W124 300TD.

http://blog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/wp-content/uploads/748873_1362329_3578_2350_A90F13771.jpg

In my book, possibly the best car ever built...
Not to discourage Tickdoc or trying to offend anybody owning a newer MB, but despite being a huge fan of the older ones, I think they went downhill starting in the mid 90s.
The last "real" Mercedes IMHO was the R129 which was discontinued in 2002.
Just my 2 cents and of course highly subjective... ;)

I haven't had many problems with five different Mercedes dating back to my 1986 E300 although it was the worst in terms of stuff going. The A/C compressor died at 260,000 miles. It needed a new muffler at 210,000. Brakes rotors barely lasted 100,000 miles. Electric window lift motor died just under 200,000 miles. The alternator only lasted 175,000 miles and I had to replace the battery once. Fan clutch at 140,000. That piece of junk cost me just under 19 cents per mile to own all in inlcuding gas, oil, repairs, tires, insurance, cost of the car (used).

The 2000 E320 4-matic wagon was my favorite. I could get the tandem back there. Great mileage and dead solid reliable. Could I ever cover ground in that thing.

My Ford truck on the other hand was costing me an arm and a leg to fix because something was always breaking or rotting out.

The only car that might get me out of my Toyota Land cruiser might be a Mercedes wagon although that Volvo looks good

[deechee]

If a car company figures out that they can make more money by selling a bigger car (SUV) for more money, you'll find them quite keen to find ways to make people 'want' such an automobile.

To say things like "Americans want x" ignores the reality that the manufacturers of x have a hand in shaping consumer wants. And as such, are capable of shifting said wants if it was in their interest to do so.


While I agree that aggressive pricing and incentives can sway buyers (or letting a model die like Volvo), you're still not seeing the numbers. Look at Subaru's Forester + Outback numbers, 32k (http://www.subaru.com/2015-sales-record), that's nothing compared to 400k+ for the Camry. Heck, even adding up all of Subaru's sales is barely 11% of what the Camry does. American's don't buy the AWD wagon as much as you say you will.

However, I know my perspective is different. In Quebec, we are dead cheap. We are one of the few places you can still buy a stripped down car with roll down windows and no a/c. Toyota Yaris and Mazda 2's are around every corner, replacing the rusted out Chevy Cavaliers in the east end. Nobody gives a crap what you drive. We are way more practical with our cars. And oh look, we still have the Kia Rondo and Mazda 5. Some of cheapest 3rd row seated cars out there...

[FlashUNC]

That is a result, not the cause, of several decades of accumulated policy (both intentional and unintentional), market conditions, advertising/marketing and product offerings.

If a car company figures out that they can make more money by selling a bigger car (SUV) for more money, you'll find them quite keen to find ways to make people 'want' such an automobile.

To say things like "Americans want x" ignores the reality that the manufacturers of x have a hand in shaping consumer wants. And as such, are capable of shifting said wants if it was in their interest to do so.

As it is now, wagons are a niche product (with low volumes) that makes it hard to justify marketing costs to ignite demand, and thus demand continues to whither. It is a feedback cycle that has contributed, over years, to the decline.

The death strike for the wagon was the minivan, the SUV/CUV is just a more masculine version of the minivan.

Of course manufacturers have a say, but whenever they put out something the Internet commentariat says we all want, it sits idle on showroom floors. Meanwhile Camrys and SUV/CUV options continue to move in volumes wagons could never hope to reach.

Sure, there's some pushing to a preference there, but how much of that is the consumer being led there, and the manufacturers simply responding to consumer demand too?

[palincss]

Good wagons are a dying breed here in the us and I was excited first, then unhappy to see that the glorious new Volvo s90 wagon is coming this way only in jacked up trail disguise only cx version( at least for now).

BMW has already bailed on the us except for the smaller overpriced 3 series wagon (imo), and Audi has done the same as Volvo and only gives us the all road jacked up version.

Then Mercedes stated the same intention with their new e class wagon, but this article suggests otherwise.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/auto/2017-mercedes-benz-e400-wagon/preview/

Is this the last great grand touring estate sportwagon coming our way?


I think you're mistaken on two counts. The V90 wagon is coming, not just the XC jacked up & cladded version; and the E class wagon is definitely coming. It's the C class wagon we aren't getting. However, next year may be the last for the BMW 3 series wagon in the US.

I'm sure the E class wagon will be absolutely marvelous. However, I've read that the street price for versions you're actually going to see on dealer lots will be about ten thousand more than the current model, or about $73,000. That's a lot like real money, in my book, anyway.

[palincss]

The Chinese Volvos are nice looking but that giant, pretty screen does not function very well and I question the reliability of a supercharged AND turbocharged motor. One forced induction system is complicated enough, but two on a brand that doesn't have a history or a mediocre one in reliability...

2017 Audi Allroad looks great. Based on the new MQB A4 avant, but just like all the germans, you have to stomach the pricing strategy to get a decently equipped one. Looks great inside and out, and Audi is #3 in reliability right now.


Two corrections: 1) Volvo may now be owned by a Chinese company, but the Volvo cars are made in Sweden, not China; and 2) the A4 is not built on MQB. MQB is transverse engine; the Audi, with its longitudinal engine, is built on the MLB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MLB_platform) platform.

[paredown]

Can't really comment as I've not dealt with a meth-head. Mercedes reliability is patchy. The cars, especially German-made, are very reliable. This is on a data set in an extended business of about 20, over the last 5 years. Mostly e class, a couple of C-class and a couple of SLs. The SUVs (especially the American-made monster one) are where they seem much worse...


I have not owned a Mercedes, but have read quite a bit about the older wagons. One comment that sticks is that Mercedes tends to show lower reliability in simple surveys because the average owner is more likely to take the car back to the dealer if things are not perfect, and get small things fixed at the dealer. Something to do with a sense of 'hey I paid a lot for this car, and it should be perfect.'

I agree with the lack of demand for wagons as the explanation for the lack of choices, but the decisions by some car makers don't help. When Honda brought the Euro Accord wagon to the US, they made it even more of a niche vehicle by marketing it as a Lexus--with the higher sticker price that entails. And then they complained that they sold too few of them to keep it in the lineup.

[Tickdoc]

The only reasons wagons are not sold is dealers don't want them. They all want as many SUV's as they can get.
High demand, and higher profit margins. It's a no brainer for the US dealers.

If there was a demand, the manufacturers would bring wagons here. There is no gov conspiracy.

The Chinese Volvos are nice looking but that giant, pretty screen does not function very well and I question the reliability of a supercharged AND turbocharged motor. One forced induction system is complicated enough, but two on a brand that doesn't have a history or a mediocre one in reliability...

Mercedes is about as reliable as a meth head, and by the time you add leather and anything meaningful, you are $15K above msrp.
Gorgeous interiors though.
E class wagons are huge. Good room but the current ones look pretty homely.
The 2017 looks very Audi-like and very pretty.

The new 2017 Kia Optima Wagon is gorgeous, priced right and feature rich. I would love to own one. But, it's a Euro market vehicle with no plans to bring it here.
Again, the US crossover fever is to blame.

2017 Audi Allroad looks great. Based on the new MQB A4 avant, but just like all the germans, you have to stomach the pricing strategy to get a decently equipped one. Looks great inside and out, and Audi is #3 in reliability right now.

I agree with Gsinill, the vast majority hate wagons and think they are ugly and old fashioned.
Subaru 'nor-eastern' lifestyle pockets aside, not much interest in them (even Subaru calls all their wagons "SUV"s)

Crossovers are dominating, and I like them too but as a wagon owner, I wish I had more options. It's a bummer.

My wife has the new Volvo XC90 and the big touchscreen is really easy to use. It cleans up the whole dash of the car nicely. I hate redundant controls, and it eliminates a lot of that.

The four cylinder turbo and supercharged engine gets decent gas mileage and has plenty of power to move such a big vehicle.

My only gripe with the Volvo so far is little nvh niggles; a rattle here and a squeak there. Just like a bike, I hate rattles and noises. I find them even more irritating on a >$60k purchase. I want to be swaddled and cuddled for that much money.....silently.

[MattTuck]

Sure, there's some pushing to a preference there, but how much of that is the consumer being led there, and the manufacturers simply responding to consumer demand too?

I agree with the lack of demand for wagons as the explanation for the lack of choices, but the decisions by some car makers don't help. When Honda brought the Euro Accord wagon to the US, they made it even more of a niche vehicle by marketing it as a Lexus--with the higher sticker price that entails. And then they complained that they sold too few of them to keep it in the lineup.

I just mean to say that it is too simplistic to say, "Europeans like wagons, and Americans don't," without atleast examining the decisions and conditions that got us to this point.

It reminds me of a business class I took during my undergrad years, where an executive from Ben and Jerry's came to talk about the class. One of the things that stuck with me was how they can engineer the melting point of the ice cream, and had different melting points for the Japanese market that were quite a bit higher (meaning it would melt faster, and feel softer) in the Japanese market. A first order analysis would suggest that Japanese consumers simply prefer the lower melting point. But when they dug into it, it a lot to do with dental care in Japan, and a feeling that softer, faster melting foods avoided discomfort that a traditional hard ice cream caused.

So, while on the surface an observer would be correct in saying that the Japanese consumers preferred the higher melting point, that isn't the whole story. My hunch is that the wagon thing is similar.

[Louis]

Here's a nice little hatchback for you - the Ferrari Ff:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--WGc7J1rQ--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18w3e1tj8k1u0jpg.jpg

[ripvanrando]

That is a result, not the cause, of several decades of accumulated policy (both intentional and unintentional), market conditions, advertising/marketing and product offerings.


As it is now, wagons are a niche product (with low volumes) that makes it hard to justify marketing costs to ignite demand, and thus demand continues to whither. It is a feedback cycle that has contributed, over years, to the decline.

I agree. I vowed never to own an SUV but the tax incentives to business owners makes buying a 6,000+ SUV or truck a no-brainer. I wanted an E class wagon but the gas guzzling pig Land Cruiser yielded me so much tax benefit that the cost of fuel is negligible in comparison.

[katematt]

Probably not in this class or discussion, but I just purchased a '17 Golf GTI SE 6spd that has brought back some memories and some new tech to boot.

[benb]

It's such a niche it's ridiculous.

Who wants a $50-100k Mercedes/BMW/Audi wagon vs a "SUV" or minivan in the $25k-40k range from one of the American or Asian manufacturers when you factor in the average German car is now averaging 2X the maintenance costs of most American or Asian cars? Meanwhile the Euro options all have pumped up horsepower and other attributes that don't really matter to the core buyer for these types of vehicles.

https://priceonomics.com/which-cars-cost-the-most-and-least-to-maintain-as/

The buyer lamenting it here seems to be the wealthy older professional with no small children who wants to stick $5000-10,000 bicycles in the hatch. That's just not the buyer for most of these vehicles. Why on earth would I pour so much money into a European wagon just to watch my kid(s) destroy it like they always do walking across the seats and kicking the backs of the front seats? I'd much rather buy the cheaper utilitarian car now and save that money for something actually fun (sports car, whatever) later on when I don't need to haul kids.

The Honda/Toyota Minivans will just about destroy the Mercedes in the OP in every aspect except maybe straight line acceleration, which is hardly the core requirement for these types of cars. Lots of the SUVs have handicaps but that seems to be what people want. I'd prefer a Legacy Wagon instead of my Subaru Outback 99% of the time but that's just tough for me as the niche guy in a market that wants jacked up. Every time I rent a minivan I wonder why I didn't buy one. The Honda is ugly currently but wasn't always so, but both it and the Toyota drive great, easily break 30mpg on the highway and are absolutely cavernous. They'll hold 3 bicycles in the back without taking the wheels off and still seat 3 adults if that's what you need, and no need to worry about dirtying an interior that has $20k of leather and wood.

I love hatchbacks too but there just aren't enough buyers for what the Euros sell and the American and Asian companies don't make it because they don't start with Europe as the core market. Everything I've seen when I've visited was that these Euro wagons and sedans are available in MUCH more spartan, less luxurious, and less horsepower versions in Europe. Those versions would probably sell better here but for whatever reason they don't want that image in the US so they sell these little niches.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Me too. I have a 2006 Volvo V70 wagon. I don't see anything out there with which to replace it when the time comes...
I want a Toyota Camry wagon. which I have seen in europe called avensis or something. hybrid would be nice, too.
next car will prob. be a AWD Sienna minivan... :(

I like this thread because it makes me feel like I'm not alone in the (American) world in yearning for a car that doesn't seem to be available here now or in the foreseeable future: an affordable AWD wagon with good or great fuel economy. There are some CUVs that kind of fit the bill, but every time I look at one with an eye towards owning one, I feel as though I'm betraying some fundamental part of myself--the sane, practical, Dutch side, that wonders why you need all that extra metal and weight without getting any more room inside.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Probably not in this class or discussion, but I just purchased a '17 Golf GTI SE 6spd that has brought back some memories and some new tech to boot.

sweet!

[shovelhd]

You can't get a stick with it, only a DSG, but check out the Audi A3 Sportback e-tron. Mid 80's e-mpg, starts at around $37k without incentives. It's a plug in hybrid so there may be federal and state rebates.

[Tickdoc]

It's such a niche it's ridiculous.

Who wants a $50-100k Mercedes/BMW/Audi wagon vs a "SUV" or minivan in the $25k-40k range from one of the American or Asian manufacturers when you factor in the average German car is now averaging 2X the maintenance costs of most American or Asian cars? Meanwhile the Euro options all have pumped up horsepower and other attributes that don't really matter to the core buyer for these types of vehicles.

https://priceonomics.com/which-cars-cost-the-most-and-least-to-maintain-as/

The buyer lamenting it here seems to be the wealthy older professional with no small children who wants to stick $5000-10,000 bicycles in the hatch. That's just not the buyer for most of these vehicles. Why on earth would I pour so much money into a European wagon just to watch my kid(s) destroy it like they always do walking across the seats and kicking the backs of the front seats? I'd much rather buy the cheaper utilitarian car now and save that money for something actually fun (sports car, whatever) later on when I don't need to haul kids.

The Honda/Toyota Minivans will just about destroy the Mercedes in the OP in every aspect except maybe straight line acceleration, which is hardly the core requirement for these types of cars. Lots of the SUVs have handicaps but that seems to be what people want. I'd prefer a Legacy Wagon instead of my Subaru Outback 99% of the time but that's just tough for me as the niche guy in a market that wants jacked up. Every time I rent a minivan I wonder why I didn't buy one. The Honda is ugly currently but wasn't always so, but both it and the Toyota drive great, easily break 30mpg on the highway and are absolutely cavernous. They'll hold 3 bicycles in the back without taking the wheels off and still seat 3 adults if that's what you need, and no need to worry about dirtying an interior that has $20k of leather and wood.

I love hatchbacks too but there just aren't enough buyers for what the Euros sell and the American and Asian companies don't make it because they don't start with Europe as the core market. Everything I've seen when I've visited was that these Euro wagons and sedans are available in MUCH more spartan, less luxurious, and less horsepower versions in Europe. Those versions would probably sell better here but for whatever reason they don't want that image in the US so they sell these little niches.

Just finished cavorting around in rental minivans from Kia and Chrysler and man what a pos they are compared to even base wagons from Europe.

My kids are nearly grown and in cars of their own, but we eschewed a minivan or suv and bought a bmw wagon when they were babies and it was great. Do I pay more for the comparable repair? Sure, but I feel it is worth it to have a superior machine. The door still shuts with a resounding bank vault like quality, and it will hum along at 100mph with ease and still outmaneuver minivans with aplomb. The leather is still holding up fine and overall build quality is just spectacular. My son is driving the wagon I bought daily where I doubt the minivan I would've bought would even still have a working interior at this point.

I fit your demographic, and lovingly so.

I just like wagons and am sad they are not available here like they are there. I see two decent size luxurious and sporty offerings that seem plausible. That is all.

[crownjewelwl]

i have an amg version of the outgoing e class wagon tuned to 640hp...it is simply fantastic

the one thing i will say about new cars in general is that the build quality simply isn't as good...even mb

i like the looks of the new wagon and will likely swap for the full amg variant when available (not the e43)

[palincss]

It's such a niche it's ridiculous.

Who wants a $50-100k Mercedes/BMW/Audi wagon vs a "SUV" or minivan in the $25k-40k range from one of the American or Asian manufacturers when you factor in the average German car is now averaging 2X the maintenance costs of most American or Asian cars? Meanwhile the Euro options all have pumped up horsepower and other attributes that don't really matter to the core buyer for these types of vehicles.

I have no use for either a minivan (far too large for me and no fun to drive) or an SUV (I've driven all the trucks & jeeps I am ever going to drive in this life, thanks). I also, thanks to loss of range of motion from a broken shoulder when I went off the C&O Canal Towpath in 2003, cannot use a roof rack. My bikes are large and won't fit in a hatchback. I need a wagon. Period.

I do not want an SUV stuck up my butt and deeply resent all attempts to force me into one. I hate SUVs, thank you very much.

That said, a Merc E class wagon is simply out of the question. $63-73K a lot like serious money. I gave the 3 series wagon a chance, cross-shopping it against a JSW TDI. There were some things I liked about the BMW a little bit better than the VW, but there were also some things about the VW I liked a lot better than the 3-series; and at nearly twice the price the BMW didn't stand a chance.

If the V70 was still on the market (not the raised ride height butched up pseudo-SUV) it would have certainly been on the short list: we just replaced my wife's 25 year old 850 wagon with a Prius V, which fits a bike very nicely and is an excellent transportation appliance, but as much fun to drive as any other household appliance such as a dishwasher or refrigerator.

[sparky33]

I have an e350 wagon as my daily driver. It's 5 years old, and a luxury (rare) and has all the driver's aide doo-dads and none of the boy-racer stapled-on sports car silliness. Has 49k miles. 3.5 v6 a little over 300hp.

Truly an incredible car. Comfy for a 12-hour drive, and I can put my bike in the back with the seats down without removing any wheels. It goes like hell when you flog it, and still will hit 30mpg on the highway. Also amazing -- better than a previous audi -- in the snow. MB has solved AWD. Plus it's a real car, not a truck with electro-trickery trying to keep it on the road.
Ditto. I love my e wagon, wonderful car...exactly as Adrien describes. I treat mine as an SUV, albeit a comfortable and pretty one.

e400, sure but 350 is plenty.

I was getting excited for the upcoming gravel e-wagon "All Terrain" (http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercedes-lifts-the-e-class-wagon-to-create-all-terrain-variant/) until I learned that it's not happening in the U.S. anytime soon. :(

[benb]

My point wasn't that I hate the expensive cars just that the use case is very niche so we're stuck with what we can get.

My main objection to the fancier cars is they still get thrashed.. and half their point is as status symbols. The status symbol of a BMW or Merc is pretty much ruined if they got treated like the typical minivan (or my Subaru) gets treated by children. And people with children are a very large portion of the market for these bigger cars. Heck a lot of car interiors do not do well with being used as bike carriers too. The only "mods" I've done to my cars (almost all hatches) has been to try and cover up as much rug and fabric as I can to prevent bicycles from tearing through the interior materials if I stuff the bike in the back.

I think the other thing is for my parents generation (baby boomers) they hate hate hate wagons perhaps because of memories of awful American wagons in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. My father likes sporty cars (mostly a weakness for BMW) but hates wagons because we had a slew of awful Oldsmobiles and Chevys when I was a kids. So he's got this strange like of SUVs because "Anything but a wagon". He's not the only person I've run into like that. We had one Olds my mother picked out and he got stuck driving it.. it was so horrible that we always joked he crashed it in the snow on purpose. When I was in high school he was ecstatic to buy a Tahoe and have something different. It drove even worse but it towed boats and such much better and was a lot better in the snow. Myself and my siblings all HATED the Tahoe because the back seat was atrocious compared to the old station wagons. So we all inherited a hatred for SUVs instead of wagons. Maybe they'll come back in our generation.

[Climb01742]

Here's the car to buy, hands down. I'd buy it but I'm about $140,000 light.:D

http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1988-porsche-959-komfort/

[palincss]

That Porsche fails Job 1. There's no way you're getting a bike into it with both wheels on.

[EDS]

I have no use for either a minivan (far too large for me and no fun to drive) or an SUV (I've driven all the trucks & jeeps I am ever going to drive in this life, thanks). I also, thanks to loss of range of motion from a broken shoulder when I went off the C&O Canal Towpath in 2003, cannot use a roof rack. My bikes are large and won't fit in a hatchback. I need a wagon. Period.

I do not want an SUV stuck up my butt and deeply resent all attempts to force me into one. I hate SUVs, thank you very much.

That said, a Merc E class wagon is simply out of the question. $63-73K a lot like serious money. I gave the 3 series wagon a chance, cross-shopping it against a JSW TDI. There were some things I liked about the BMW a little bit better than the VW, but there were also some things about the VW I liked a lot better than the 3-series; and at nearly twice the price the BMW didn't stand a chance.

If the V70 was still on the market (not the raised ride height butched up pseudo-SUV) it would have certainly been on the short list: we just replaced my wife's 25 year old 850 wagon with a Prius V, which fits a bike very nicely and is an excellent transportation appliance, but as much fun to drive as any other household appliance such as a dishwasher or refrigerator.

Volvo still has the V60 and will soon have the V90 in non XC form.

[sparky33]

The buyer lamenting it here seems to be the wealthy older professional with no small children who wants to stick $5000-10,000 bicycles in the hatch. That's just not the buyer for most of these vehicles. Why on earth would I pour so much money into a European wagon just to watch my kid(s) destroy it like they always do walking across the seats and kicking the backs of the front seats? I'd much rather buy the cheaper utilitarian car now and save that money for something actually fun (sports car, whatever) later on when I don't need to haul kids.

You make a fair point.

However, I think a not uncommon view is that folks who do have kids, dogs and bikes still like to be comfortable in a terrific car, even if the cargo and passengers are slowly tearing it to pieces. I am definitely a happier person getting my seat kicked in my Mercedes than I was getting my seat kicked in a less nice car. Go figure. Also, an e-wagon can take a surprising amount of abuse - MBTex is tough stuff.

Lastly, when I don't have young kids anymore, I will get a light pickup truck.

[Climb01742]

That Porsche fails Job 1. There's no way you're getting a bike into it with both wheels on.

In that car, who cares???:D One of the greatest cars ever built.

[sparky33]

That Porsche fails Job 1. There's no way you're getting a bike into it with both wheels on.

In that car, who cares???:D One of the greatest cars ever built.

or just a buy a brand new bike every time you get where you are going.

why spend less. ;)

[Gsinill]

In that car, who cares???:D One of the greatest cars ever built.

Every time this car comes up, it makes me think of this (from Wikipedia):

"Gates 959"
The "Gates 959" is an infamous 959 owned by Microsoft founder Bill Gates. Bill Gates bought his 959 before the model had Department of Transportation and Environmental Protection Agency approval. The "Gates 959" was stored for 13 years by the Customs Service at the Port of San Francisco, until regulations were changed to allow "Autos of Interest" to be imported with severe limitations on their use. Gates helped pass the "Show and Display" law.

[palincss]

Volvo still has the V60 and will soon have the V90 in non XC form.

The V60 is far too small inside to fit a bicycle with fenders with both wheels on. The V90 should be as large as the Merc inside, but it's still a ways away and will be around $50K.

[palincss]

In that car, who cares???:D One of the greatest cars ever built.

It doesn't matter. If it can't carry a bike to a ride start, it has no role in my life. Seriously.

[buddybikes]

2008 Saab 9-5 wagon manual - fit 3 bikes and 3 kayaks to down east maine few years ago, and 2 dogs. This thread is depressing, when this goes, think I will need to pick up a used Outback - not spending 50k. Just want the long roof line for strength holding boats.


1697927332

[pasadena]

VW Sportwagen is in the $25K zone
The new VW Alltrack will be high 20-$34K
Pretty solid values and roomy inside

VW targets the bigger Outback, with a lower price but higher style and interior and DSG auto instead of CVT as an alternative choice.

The next Passat Wagon (also a Alltrack version) may also come here.
Now that they have 4Motion manufacturing in Mexico, it's a possibility after the next gen Tiguan.

The Subaru Forester and Outback are perennial favorites.

Not a wealth of choices in the non-lux area but some interesting ones.

[everbeek]

1697927383
CRX Si, Integra GSR, Passat wagon, A4 Avant, and now this 328 Xi. Drive each for ~150,000 miles. Two kids (from babies to out of college), their friends and traditional suburban activities, a dog, and lumber and garden supply runs as needed. Never had a need for additional room, had zero issues getting the kids into and out of the car, and I can reach the roof without a step stool for bikes and canoe. CUV’s and SUV’s may be more than adequately engineered but physics dictates that lower and lighter will handle better and stop quicker - my idea of safety, all things being equal. I have no need (nor finances) for navigation, leather or other niceties, but did require supportive sport seats, and got this out the door for $44K. It is likely more expensive than a comparably equipped CUV but on my daily, one hour each way, suburban commute I can stay within posted speed limits and keep my car centered in my lane feeling and enjoying a few fractions of lateral Gs. I don’t understand the underlying engineering principles but it appears from my driver’s seat that not a single minivan or CUV/SUV can maintain their lane.

I really liked my Avant with sports suspension but the BMW is better in every way.
-Mike

[Tickdoc]

1697927383
CRX Si, Integra GSR, Passat wagon, A4 Avant, and now this 328 Xi. Drive each for ~150,000 miles. Two kids (from babies to out of college), their friends and traditional suburban activities, a dog, and lumber and garden supply runs as needed. Never had a need for additional room, had zero issues getting the kids into and out of the car, and I can reach the roof without a step stool for bikes and canoe. CUV’s and SUV’s may be more than adequately engineered but physics dictates that lower and lighter will handle better, all things being equal. I have no need (nor finances) for navigation, leather or other niceties, but did require supportive sport seats, and got this out the door for $44K. It is likely more expensive than a comparably equipped CUV but on my daily, one hour each way, suburban commute I can stay within posted speed limits and keep my car centered in my lane feeling and enjoying a few fractions of lateral Gs. I don’t understand the underlying engineering principles but it appears from my driver’s seat that not a single minivan or CUV/SUV can maintain their lane.

I really liked my Avant with sports suspension but the BMW is better in every way.
-Mike


Now that's a cool wagon.
I only wish the legroom was better in the 3's.

[AngryScientist]

i've said it in other threads and i'll mention it again:

wagons offer only a slight real advantage over sedans when you get right down to the utility of them. i know they look more utilitarian, but you honestly dont lose a whole ton of space going from a wagon to a sedan.

i've ridden in quite a few of the new jetta wagons, and honestly my jetta sedan can fit just nearly as much stuff. when i bought my sedan, the wagon was not available or nearly as cheap as my base model jetta.

just finished a 1200 mile week with it and a bicycle in the back, camping and crossing multiple states, including a 7-hour drive home. no problems.

would i prefer the wagon variant - yes; but the sedan version is very usable too.

[Louis]

wagons offer only a slight real advantage over sedans when you get right down to the utility of them

The hatch is a massive advantage when carrying stuff.

[palincss]

i've said it in other threads and i'll mention it again:

wagons offer only a slight real advantage over sedans when you get right down to the utility of them. i know they look more utilitarian, but you honestly dont lose a whole ton of space going from a wagon to a sedan.


No, not a ton, just that little bit that makes it possible to put the bike inside the car.

I was through this just last month, when my JSW was in the shop. They gave me a new Passat loaner. This car is very spacious inside and has a trunk pass-through. Only trouble is, the only bike I could get inside was the one with no fenders, because I had to remove the front wheel and rotate the bars 90 degrees to be able to get the bike through the trunk opening. That's one bike out of five. Forget the other four. Not acceptable to me.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Wagon has longer roofline for racks and roof boxes.
I have frequently packed my wagon to the gills so I cannot see out the back.
It's not huge but bigger than slight.
And when you fold down the seats you get a ton of space.
You can make do with a sedan of course.


i've said it in other threads and i'll mention it again:

wagons offer only a slight real advantage over sedans when you get right down to the utility of them. i know they look more utilitarian, but you honestly dont lose a whole ton of space going from a wagon to a sedan.

i've ridden in quite a few of the new jetta wagons, and honestly my jetta sedan can fit just nearly as much stuff. when i bought my sedan, the wagon was not available or nearly as cheap as my base model jetta.

just finished a 1200 mile week with it and a bicycle in the back, camping and crossing multiple states, including a 7-hour drive home. no problems.

would i prefer the wagon variant - yes; but the sedan version is very usable too.

[pasadena]

The hatch is a massive advantage when carrying stuff.

Yup
It's so useful, I really only look at crossovers or wagons for my car shopping choices.
Sometimes I consider a sedan, but I have to REALLY like it to give up the utility.

[AngryScientist]

yes, there is no denying that there IS an advantage to the wagon and hatch, my only point is that i think a lot of folks here think a sedan is next to useless as a utility vehicle. they do work fine for most stuff. i get a bicycle inside mine all the time with lots of room to spare.