Mental illness and professional cycling.

[swoop]

I wonder if mood spectrum disorders, specifically bipolar disorder, appear at a higher rate in the peloton than in a random sampling of a normal population (and compared to pro athletes from other sports)?

As a very tres-hack masters racer, I know that just doing one or two crits every weekend wreaks havoc on my brain chemistry. When I am going through a hard training week I also go through what huge serotinin dump. There have been times I've had to treat the training/racing-depression to get my system back to normal.

I can't imagine what racing on the pro level does to one's brain chemistry. The extremes of endorphin rushes and the profound emptying out that one goes through when suffering to the extent that they suffer. The narrow focusing of life and also the social isolation and narrowing of experiences that ones confronts when having to live with nearly monastic dedication to the sport.. from so early an age. and don't think for a second that being on a pro team means being treated with respect and dignity. In many circumstances you are just a horse in a stall.

To train well is to be somewhat bipolar. the extreme-ness of it. i know that lemond has a lot of feelings about this too. (not saying that lemond suffers from anything.. just that he has some ideas about this concept.. i've heard second handedly).

anyway.. as a psychotherapist, the one disorder that i see patients actually die from.. is bipolar disorder. my best friend died three years ago.. and it was from situation that was an expression of a mixed episode (mania and depression more or less over lapping). she was one of the smartest, kindest, most talented people i've ever encountered. itjust took one bad day and the stars being aligned with a little bad luck.

it's just genes. you either have the gene for the disorder or you don't. i do think those of us that cycle seriously... have to be careful that we aren't riding to medicate something... or at least conscious of when we are medicating and i do think at the d-1 level.. the sport can push your brain chemistry into some extreme spaces and if you have the genetic potential for mood disorderes.. it can put you there.

i love this sport. it's a huge part of my life and because of that i feel like i want to give back to it. the team i'm on is associated with a charity... it helps it not feel so selfish.

i do wish there were an effective rider's union with free health care. i'd pay more to race to fund one. i do wish there were some science behind my half baked opinion here and so there was something set up to take care of the guys that give so much of themselves to the sport (most of them don't make crap for money). my doctorate is clinical and not research.. but if i went back to school to get another one this would be my dissertation project (bipolar disorder and professional cycling).

one of my friends is racing d-3 with a serious back injury and some other stuff and he can't afford treatment. there are guys out there that i know of who are gifted athletes that have an incredible work ethic and are very sincere and good people... and they got emptied out by the sport, a little mistreated, and got physiologically pushed over the edge. i think it's true in any occupation that the folks that cluster towards the extreme right side of the bell curve also have a higher incidence of emotional problems (the crazy genius cliche is rooted in truth).

i just think we need to take care of our own. so, where ever you are riding.. wherever there is a big group or local pros or retired dudes that used to kill on the bike... look out for each other. the thing about cycling more so than any other sport is that the community is very tight. the top end isn't that far from the guys that just love to ride. it's a special thing.

we can dump on each other or we can try and look out. i'm all for making fun.. i am not humorless.. it's just let's take care of the guys when they are at their most vulnerable. and i think for me that just means respecting them.

there is something that resembles taking vows and living in a cave when you get deep into this game. and they don't make it easy on you.

anyway.. that's my rant. thinking out loud. enjoy your weekend riding, doing centuries, racing, or just putting the hurt on some folks. cycling is life.

[saab2000]

Jimenez from Spain was hellatalented and died a few years ago after fighting depression. Others have commited suicide after leaving the pros and having to try to live a normal life.

[Fixed]

bro so riding and racing everyweek is bad for you?
I guess i could just smoke drink and go to bars and not ride and race .

[swoop]

bro so riding and racing everyweek is bad for you?
I guess i could just smoke drink and go to bars and not ride and race .


that's not what i said. there was nothing about good or bad. i just noticed something in myself.. that i've noticed around me too. the human body is always seeking balance. training creates imbalance. everything you think and feel is an expression of chemicals and electrical impulses in your brain.

it's interesting to me. lots of folks live thier whole lives wihtout occupying the spaces we do during every race.... i'm just looking to the ripples in the pond that come after the rock is thrown in.

but yes butch.. you are a nutbag.
:)

[Roy E. Munson]

I guess i could just smoke drink and go to bars and not ride and race .

Why not do all four?

[swoop]

Why not do all four?


it's called a belgian interval.

[saab2000]

Most of us have balance in our lives. Many people in some professions do not. Pro athletes are included in that.

Racing as a hobby is in fact indicative of having balance. It is the ones that take it to a higher level that can have problems sometime. Anything taken to an extreme can be unhealthy. Pro cycling is definitely an extreme.

[coylifut]

there are guys out there that i know of who are gifted athletes that have an incredible work ethic and are very sincere and good people... and they got emptied out by the sport, a little mistreated, and got physiologically pushed over the edge.


interesting swoop. With no effort, I can think of 3 guys that the above comment fits all too well. I remember showing up for the first day of freshman biology and there's a rat that's been taught to hit a lever to get a pellet of food. The experiment is then changed where the rat gets an electric shock then a pellet of food. It doesn't take long for the rat to be reduced to cowering in a corner - starving to death. I've never raced as a pro, but I've raced enough as a masters-hack to realize that it's a sport that could easily get on top of you and once it does it can really beat you down.

[swoop]

interesting swoop. With no effort, I can think of 3 guys that the above comment fits all too well. I remember showing up for the first day of freshman biology and there's a rat that's been taught to hit a lever to get a pellet of food. The experiment is then changed where the rat gets an electric shock then a pellet of food. It doesn't take long for the rat to be reduced to cowering in a corner - starving to death. I've never raced as a pro, but I've raced enough as a masters-hack to realize that it's a sport that could easily get on top of you and once it does it can really beat you down.

Learned Helplessness in Rats. I see versions of that all the time in my office.

[Roy E. Munson]

I have a different theroy, but it has more to do with the social sacrifices one makes to be a competitve cyclist.

[swoop]

put it out there.. let's hear it.

[Mikej]

I kind of always felt the opposite - like ocd or depressive gene types are attracted to cycling, running, etc. The repetitiveness gives us our fix. Note, I'm not an MD, just really opinionated.

[catulle]

Way back then when I walked the halls of a loony bin, about when the nucleus circularis was identified as an element in the physiology of thirst, I asked a similar question to a well-known Spanish professor of psychopathology. His response, of course, would be somewhat anachronic now days but it rather points in your direction. He said that all too often extraordinary people are the result of immense defense mechanisms, which in turn reflect a sort of pathology.

I understand from what you say that the depression would be the result of the intense demands to the body (serotonin peaks and valleys and so on), but maybe we ought to try to find out why the need to bend the body out of shape to begin with. I think yours is a very interesting question, and I really have nothing to contribute except some vague memory. Thankfully, at my age, I just lay on the porch scaring the flies away with my tail, and sometimes I bark for my Eukanuba, atmo.

[atmo]

put it out there.. let's hear it.
it's called chasing the 12K dream atmo.

[swoop]

the sport for sure draws in obsessive types. if there were a personality type for the consumer it would be obsessive, fo shizzle. one only need look at questions about 'what gear should i get.. is lightest, is best.. etc).

in the trade we call them normal neurotics (i am a card carrying high functioning normal neurotic. lets party. add in world class dyslexia oot.). that being said.. i think the average bike shop employee encounters more mental illness in a week than i do in a month. i can't imagine what a frame builder/fitter goes through!
atmo... paging dr. atmo.

[atmo]

it's called chasing the 12K dream atmo.
yeah what i said atmo.

[swoop]

it's called chasing the 12K dream atmo.

we call it out like this , "livin the dream". masters are "living the dream part two".

no friend that races goes unpunished or untaunted. all i do is the equivalent of t-ball. just i starve myself and dress like a power ranger to do it.. which makes it worse than t-ball.

[atmo]

we call it out like this , "livin the dream". masters are "living the dream part two".

no friend that races goes unpunished or untaunted. all i do is the equivalent of t-ball. just i starve myself and dress like a power ranger to do it.. which makes it worse than t-ball.
arrested development atmo.
no real u.s. based racer doesn't have it.

[catulle]

yeah what i said atmo.

Er, I think e-RICHIE just finished a very strenuous work-out, atmo...

[wasfast]

The data regarding depression/bipolar/suicide appears a bit skewed because high level cyclists (or other endurance athlete as well) as a group are a very thin slice of the entire population. Then, viewing that slice as it's own population (statistically dangerous) will give even more skewed statistics.

It takes a certain sort of person to suffer like top cyclist do in the first place. I can see a pattern in the posts already about environment (the training changed my chemistry) vs genetic (you were going to be depressed anyway). It may well be a bit of both.

I think many that choose sports (not just cycling) see it as a way of gaining acceptance about themselves through the recognition. When it stops for some reason (injury, retirement, post major event etc), they are now left to just themselves and little to strive for. The result is depression, or at it's most severe, suicide. I've been amazed (but really shouldn't be) at the number of suicides from cyclists over the years.

[swoop]

The data regarding depression/bipolar/suicide appears a bit skewed because high level cyclists (or other endurance athlete as well) as a group are a very thin slice of the entire population. Then, viewing that slice as it's own population (statistically dangerous) will give even more skewed statistics.

It takes a certain sort of person to suffer like top cyclist do in the first place. I can see a pattern in the posts already about environment (the training changed my chemistry) vs genetic (you were going to be depressed anyway). It may well be a bit of both.

I think many that choose sports (not just cycling) see it as a way of gaining acceptance about themselves through the recognition. When it stops for some reason (injury, retirement, post major event etc), they are now left to just themselves and little to strive for. The result is depression, or at it's most severe, suicide. I've been amazed (but really shouldn't be) at the number of suicides from cyclists over the years.

i had a long talk with harm jensen about this as he faced retiring from riding. while you and i are developing social skills, the ability to self soothe, an identity based on some authentic experience of ourselves, and an ability to deal with the ambiguity of meaning that infuses so much of life.. a lot of these guys are racing bikes, training, and living to make wattage/weight and results. it's a very specific universe to live in with it's own specific distinct laws of nature. in many ways perhaps more ordered and linear than 'real life'. and then one day you look up and you are thirty something and.. bam... you haven't developed the self and no one is going to help you get there.

that being said i've also encountered a lot of guys that ride for a living that a very high functioning emotionally well equipped, perhaps unusually skilled at video games.. and are great healthy people... who happened to have been investing in apartment buildings since they were making moeny riding on national teams.

there are alot of bright dudes out there doing just fine too.

we are the world.:p

[Serpico]

I read Heft on Wheels and that guy is mental imo

it's subtitled as "A Field Guide to Doing a 180"

it's basically a diary about a guy who went from a complete jackass sitting on a barstool to a bit less of a fool sitting on a bike saddle

I wouldn't have a problem if it was simply marketed as a personal memoir, but selling it as "A Field Guide to Doing a 180" is just wrong, the guy is seriously obsessive and simply substitutes the bike in place of decades of hard drinking

very unhealthy stuff mentioned, both physically and psychologically--please don't buy this book

[manet]

mine is love hate. the swing
is strong and every bit as quick
as sheffield's wrists.

[Fixed]

bro and then one day you don't wake up.
cheers

[ols]

Rowing is also a pretty intense sport, although this is the only rower I'm aware of that seems to have followed a similar path to your other examples. This gentleman was an Olympic gold medallist in 1988. Very sad as well.




German Olympic Champion Loses Fight with Anorexia

15/8/01 9:30 AM




Seoul Olympic men’s eight gold medallist Bahne Rabe has died after a battle with anorexia, a German newspaper reported on Sunday.

Rabe died on August 5 in Kiel, Germany, two days before his 38th birthday.

He had been suffering from the condition for several months and was struck down by a lung infection that his weakened body was unable to fight.

The 2,03m tall German Olympian had been 190 pounds during his years in competition, but had dropped down to 120 in the past few weeks.

After his victory in Seoul in 1988, Rabe won gold in the men’s coxless four in Vienna in 1991 and bronze in the men’s eight at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.

He retired from rowing before the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 when he saw that he was unlikely to qualify.

According to the Bild am Sonntag newspaper, after ten years under strict training regime, with yearly goals to achieve, Rabe found it hard to manage his everyday life on his own.

He had always been very aware of his body but in the past year had started to lose weight dramatically and visited a clinic in March for the first time.

Rabe’s father told the newspaper that he thought sports federations should do more to support athletes after they had finished competing at the top level.

He said they needed to realise that athletes such as his son should not only be accompanied to the top of their success, but also back into normality. They should receive much more help to settle in to every day life again.

German rowing federation sports director Michael Mueller said today that Rabe's death was a tragedy.

FISA extends its deepest condolences to Bahne Rabe’s family and friends.

[fmbp]

Swoop,

These are interesting ideas, and as a clinical psych PhD student, one that is particularly interesting to me both as a student and as a cyclist. I can't personally claim to know any professional athletes, but your write up of the issue is certainly intriguing.

A quick search of PubMed turned up this abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14986200&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

which seems to lend some creedence to the serotonin theory, albeit in a case study format.

There certainly seem to be many examples in the pro peloton as previously mentioned; Jimenez, Pantani, Frank VdB (not going to take the time to look up the correct spelling), and I'm sure there are others.

Neat idea. Something that is certainly going to bounce around in my head for some time now . . .

[wasfast]

i had a long talk with harm jensen about this as he faced retiring from riding. while you and i are developing social skills, the ability to self soothe, an identity based on some authentic experience of ourselves, and an ability to deal with the ambiguity of meaning that infuses so much of life.. a lot of these guys are racing bikes, training, and living to make wattage/weight and results. it's a very specific universe to live in with it's own specific distinct laws of nature. in many ways perhaps more ordered and linear than 'real life'. and then one day you look up and you are thirty something and.. bam... you haven't developed the self and no one is going to help you get there.


I worked for my coach (former Olympic Pentathlete) when racing heavily in my teens/early 20's doing heavy construction . He believed in helping provide means for athletes which, while a nice thing, was a bunch of Ultra Type A's including fencers, swimmers, cyclists etc. We worked our tails off, on the job and in training. I had a large social adjustment in my mid 20's once I realized that not everyone was ultra driven, ultra goal oriented, lived to do their sport etc. My confrontations with workers at my new engineering job at a high tech job was not pretty to say the least. I had no understanding of why people were such SLACKERS!:-) I guess that makes me a version of what you've described.

I"ve spent the last 6 months or so trying to decide why the achievement of these goals was so all consuming, at any age. At the time, it seemed the world would stop if you didn't make your goals. These days, I realize that even if you did achieve the goals, NOBODY CARES! That's probably a "duh" to many people but it wasn't to me or most that I knew back then.

[Bill Bove]

I'm not a former pro nor do I pretend to be one, except on saturday morning, but I do owe my life to a cocktail of anti-depressants.

[William]

I wonder if mood spectrum disorders.. specifically bipolar disorder appear at a higher rate in the peloton than in a random sampling of a normal population(and a populaton of pro athletes from other sports)?

As a very tres-hack masters racer, I know that just doing one or two crits every weekend wreaks havoc on my brain chemistry. When I am going through a hard training week i am also going through what i call a 'huge serotinin dump'. There have been times I've had to treat the training/racing-depression to get my system back to normal.

I can't imagine what racing on the pro level does to one's brain chemistry. The extremes of endorphin rushes and the profound emptying out that one goes through when suffering to the extent that they suffer. The narrow focusing of life and also the social isolation and narrowing of experiences that ones confronts when having to live with nearly monastic dedication to the sport.. from so early an age. and don't think for a second that being on a pro team means being treated with respect and dignity. in many circumstances you are just a horse in a stall.

to train well is to be somewhat bipolar. the extreme-ness of it. i know that lemond has a lot of feelings about this too. (not saying that lemond suffers from anything.. just that he has some ideas about this concept.. i've heard second handedly).

I had a similar discussion with my good friend and former team mate on my College Cycling team a few years ago. Very interesting discussion.

He would be one to talk to on the subject imho.

Dr. Christopher A. Lowry (center back in photo)
He's now head of the Behavioural Neuroscience Group at the Laboratories for Integrative Neuroscience and Endocrinology, University of Bristol.

This research programme investigates neural systems underlying complex physiological and behavioural states like anxiety and fear. Much of our research is directed toward understanding the role that serotonergic systems play in regulating the sensitivity and plasticity of these neural systems and stress-related behaviour.


http://www.bristol.ac.uk/Depts/URCN/labs/lowry.html


William

[catulle]

By the way, something similar happens to the behaviour ( :banana: ) of some special forces guys, iirc. It is sad to see so many retired Navy Seals and the like with shattered lives of depression and substance abuse, atmo.

[bcm119]

I"ve spent the last 6 months or so trying to decide why the achievement of these goals was so all consuming, at any age. At the time, it seemed the world would stop if you didn't make your goals. These days, I realize that even if you did achieve the goals, NOBODY CARES! That's probably a "duh" to many people but it wasn't to me or most that I knew back then.

Thats so true.

When I was swimming I traveled around quite a bit to regional and national meets. I was a sprinter, which in swimming means half the race is mental. I would be in such an altered mindset for those 3 days of competition, that when it was all over and time to go home I would sink into a deep depression for about 48 hours. I couldn't eat, and seriously felt like there was nothing to look forward to ever again, no matter how well I competed. I knew at the time it was just brain chemistry, but it was powerful stuff.

That life is so narrow, regimented, focused, etc, and most of all isolated in every way. Sure you learn things about work ethic and self discipline, but applying it to something other than your sport is a whole different matter. I often wondered/worried this: will I ever be as good at anything else as I am at swimming? The answer thus far is a big NO, and luckily I'm okay with that, but it took a while to accept it/deal with it... its all about finding a balance now.

[Ray]

I've always thought, from my highly un-qualified perspective, that cycling and other endurance activities (not 'sports' - more below) probably drew a higher percentage than normal of somewhat depressed folks because of the long lasting endorphin buzz. Kind of self-selecting in the sense that the folks who had the biggest issues would feel the biggest benefit and keep coming back for more. I've never had any diagnosed depression or other mental illness, but I know I'm a WHOLE lot happier when I'm riding 4-5 times per week than when I'm not.

As far as the 'sport' end of it - the racing, that's a whole nother kettle of fish. I like to ride semi-hard upon occasion but never had any desire to race (past the couple of mountain bike races I did when I was pretty new to cycling). When non-cyclists ask me why I never got into racing, I generally avoid talking about my lack of speed and go straight to the fact that the active verb in cyle racing is "to suffer". I suffer, you suffer, he/she/it suffers, we suffer, etc. Any interview I've ever seen with an improved pro cyclist always comes around to "I've really learned how to suffer a lot better". I may be in the minority around here, but somehow that never really appealed to me. Is being drawn to a sport where the emphasis is on learning how to suffer more effectively an illness itself?

-Ray

[Fixed]

bro fans can get that stuff too lots of cats go off the deep end after the super bowl.
cheers

[Cary Ford]

Don't listen to Swoop. He's a genuine lunatic.

[mike p]

I read Heft on Wheels and that guy is mental imo

it's subtitled as "A Field Guide to Doing a 180"

it's basically a diary about a guy who went from a complete jackass sitting on a barstool to a bit less of a fool sitting on a bike saddle

I wouldn't have a problem if it was simply marketed as a personal memoir, but selling it as "A Field Guide to Doing a 180" is just wrong, the guy is seriously obsessive and simply substitutes the bike in place of decades of hard drinking

very unhealthy stuff mentioned, both physically and psychologically--please don't buy this book

That book was very funny. I give it a thumbs up, but it's not a guide on how to run your life.

Mike

[Chad Engle]

I have nothing useful to add, I do have a Psych degree, years ago. But this is the most interesting thing I've read on the internet. This is exactly why this forum is the sooo worth reading.

[swoop]

Don't listen to Swoop. He's a genuine lunatic.

don't make me out you... fruitboy.

[davids]

I have nothing useful to add, I do have a Psych degree, years ago. But this is the most interesting thing I've read on the internet. This is exactly why this forum is the sooo worth reading.
Word. This has been a great read. Thanks for starting it, swoop.

I've never been a competitive athelete. As a matter of fact, I was the scrawny spaz who got picked last for every neighborhood ballgame. But I'm getting better & better at this cycling thing, and a few riding buddies have suggested that I try racing. I've been ambivalent - On the one hand, I'd like to keep progressing, and getting to be a more skilled, more powerful, faster rider. On the other hand, I can't work up much enthusiasm for the whole racing scene.

The comments different folks have made about the rush of competition, and the post-event/career let-down has helped me think more clearly about my own situation. Actually, it's made it clear to me that I don't want to compete. I don't want the highs & lows, the anxiety of being 'tested', and the BS of being put down by my competitors. I'll stick with the fast group rides, and look forward to being able to take more and longer pulls at the front.

[swoop]

Word. This has been a great read. Thanks for starting it, swoop.

I've never been a competitive athelete. As a matter of fact, I was the scrawny spaz who got picked last for every neighborhood ballgame. But I'm getting better & better at this cycling thing, and a few riding buddies have suggested that I try racing. I've been ambivalent - On the one hand, I'd like to keep progressing, and getting to be a more skilled, more powerful, faster rider. On the other hand, I can't work up much enthusiasm for the whole racing scene.

The comments different folks have made about the rush of competition, and the post-event/career let-down has helped me think more clearly about my own situation. Actually, it's made it clear to me that I don't want to compete. I don't want the highs & lows, the anxiety of being 'tested', and the BS of being put down by my competitors. I'll stick with the fast group rides, and look forward to being able to take more and longer pulls at the front.


racing is so much fun and i would do and say just about anything to encourage you to give it a try. even if it's just a tt or a team tt or a local crit with a one day license or a citizens race. a cat 5 road race with a nice climb is a great intro to racing too (especially for the skinny dudes). every weekend there is a race here.. some are ten minutes away and some are several hundred miles.. even all the way across country. i can go to any race locally and just about any of the big national ones and run into about 100 friends each time or come away having made a handful of new ones. it's a great shared experience to have and in general... i've only had one bad experience with someone... the rest have been great.
i've met so many amazing people through racing... and that alone is reason enough to get into it. i've also been pushed harder and supported by such genuine folks. go race.. your'e missing out on so much more than you can imagine by not going for it. you'll go from just hoping to finish to being a contender in no time at all.

i avoided it for all my twenties out of fear.. didn't start until my mid 30's and so regret it took so long. do it!!!!!! it's not what you think. it's awesome. and as a cyclist.. it will force you to ride your bike in a way you didn't think was possible... you'll know where the edge is and you'll get comfortable there and it will move further away and you'll get comfy there .... you'll blow your own mind.

[atmo]

you'll know where the edge is and you'll get comfortable there and it will move further away and you'll get comfy there..

yeah on that part atmo.


... you'll blow your own mind.
very cosmo kramer atmo.

[tomwd3]

swoop, I find your comments very interesting. I'm pretty similar to davids in my riding level. Local race team member for the 1st time this year, and have progressed pretty well. But I'm regulary having to remind myself of why I'm cycling and where it should fit into my life.
My friends and family would quickly tell you that moderation has never been my strong suit. Wether it be skiing, cycling, working etc. I can tell you that most of the guys I ride with, IT IS WHAT THEY DO. It comes first.
Fortunately for me, a wife and 2 kids which thankfully force me to keep some life balance.
That being said, they're going away for a couple of days, and I'm trying to plan how many rides I can do while they're gone!!! ;)

[Ginger]

When non-cyclists ask me why I never got into racing, I generally avoid talking about my lack of speed and go straight to the fact that the active verb in cyle racing is "to suffer". I suffer, you suffer, he/she/it suffers, we suffer, etc. Any interview I've ever seen with an improved pro cyclist always comes around to "I've really learned how to suffer a lot better". I may be in the minority around here, but somehow that never really appealed to me. Is being drawn to a sport where the emphasis is on learning how to suffer more effectively an illness itself?

-Ray

I was thinking about suffering as I was riding fairly hard, and I couldn't remember why....then I reread this post. Oh yeah. I'm supposed to see if I suffer on the bike.

The only conclusion I could draw was that those people don't know suffering or don't have a less dramatic positive word for what they are doing on the bike.
Suffering is when there is no choice.
On the bike, I have a choice. What I experience when I'm pushing limits on the bike is far closer to joy than suffering.
I can do it - I choose to do it...

So except for certain situations that deal with lack of choice (or saddle choice), I just don't get it when people talk about suffering on the bike.

[DreaminJohn]

The first time I read through it, I immediately flashed back (and MY shrink is teaching me not to ingore these as they are usually important to me) to a thread several months back by one of the 'regulars' (Smiley, Fly, Fixed?) where the OP followed a really strong rider for a spell and then afterwards suggested he might try racing.

I thought that some of the responses were disproportionate to the idea of the thread in terms of their viciousness. And now I'm thinkin' that maybe this idea of Swoop's is a possible explanation.

BTW, I tried searching for the referenced thread. I'd be grateful if someone could assist even for my own personal reference.

[manet]

BTW, I tried searching for the referenced thread. I'd be grateful if someone could assist even for my own personal reference.

did it have to do with Tom @ sunapee?

[swoop]

i think suffering when you have a simple choice of just not pedaling anymore.. is a very deep kind of pain and heightened state of being. to will the suffering onto yourself when relief is just a passive act away from you.. and to continue to suffer... is almost a state of grace. it's a mastery of one's will and nearly a mystical experience in my book. yup. it's the part of this sport that i think is almost shamanic... in that it alters consciousness so deeply.

i think about andy hampsten motor pacing and pushing so hard that he lost consciousness. and i think of buddhist monks sitting zazen as being from the same cloth. it's something about stripping away all the parts of oneself that are extraneous and to just simply sit in the basic act of survival... a kind of selflessness.

i know i'm pushing the envelope here.. but that's what it is for me.


i've only been fit enough probably 3 times in my life to suffer so deeply that i had tunnel vision. hard to explain without sounding creepy.

ginger... look at pictures of ullrichs face during a climb when things have gone nasty.. there is a vacantness.. his whole face changes. anyone that is suffering has that face about them. it's hard to get there....
it's like being possessed. your brain stops integrating information. you see but it doesn't make sense. your heart beats but like it's in someone elses body. you disassociate. the chemical state of your brain resembles the act of dying to trick you into shutting down so you don't do permanent damage. your brain stem is doing the brunt of the work. the pain changes the same way things get warm when you have frostbite.

stuff like that. riding hard and being uncomfortable/suffering are 2 distinct things. there is an old tibetan buddhist bit of wisdom.. samsara is nirvana.
in essense.. the suffering is the way. the great gestalt therapist fritz perls said it this way.. to suffer one's own death and to be reborn is never easy.
that in my book is what cycling is about in it's purist from. it is a sprirtual endeavor and a cleansing.

at the local races every now and then you'll see someone suffering for the first time... they are either off the back holding on for dear life or off the front and pushing themselves out of their gord. you can feel it when they ride by and they do very much get welcomed... now they know what bike racing is. i remember when my friends welcomed me for the first time....

anyway.. i rambled on way too long. but yes.. this is sport and ritual.. the suffering is symbolic and not to be confused other aspects of human experience, poverty, sickness etc.

[Tom]

Saying 'I was really suffering on the last pitch up that climb' is more catchy than saying 'I was really uncomfortable on that hill.'

We experience 'discomfort', because it stops when we stop. Pain and suffering don't. The characters racing around France right now are a different thing, I'd wager they push it past discomfort. But me, I barely get within waving distance before I turn back.

[DreaminJohn]

Washington DC, some dude hammering at a very high pace where the OP kept waiting for the pace to drop but never did. Hammering guy was an attorney?

[Tom]

Funny thing is, Swoop, the times I had it there was no suffering involved. I just got there all of a sudden, each time running up a long hill. I only had it running, though, I'm not sure I want to do that when the road's not closed. It is fun, though.

I think your post about racing is dead on. I just started this year (the post DreaminJohn is thinking about was TooTalls, though) and you're very right. It is a hell of a lot of fun but I laugh because it's like running. Every race I ever ran I always said at some point "I'm never doing this again, why the hell do I do this to myself?" I only raced twice so far this year, stupidly dithering until all the early season local ones filled up, but in each I've had moments where I thought "Jesus, I'm scared out of my ****ing mind! This is no fun at all, I'm going to get killed out here!" but as soon as I cross the finish I am bummed it's over and I read the calendars over and over looking for ones I could go to.

[Ray]

Washington DC, some dude hammering at a very high pace where the OP kept waiting for the pace to drop but never did. Hammering guy was an attorney?
I think you're thinking of this one:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=17490&highlight=Grant+Peterson

My response is probably one of those you were thinking aobut being disproportionate. It well might have been.

My own take is that almost every ride has a LITTLE bit of racing in it. From the various club rides I've done that have gotten more competitive than intended, and the couple of mtb races I tried (which I didn't do badly in, although at the lowest level), I know that racing isn't for me. I love the feel I get when I get into a groove on a long solo ride that I know is the exact right speed - the miles are going by at a good clip but I'm never in much difficulty. I go up the hills slower than I'm capable of, but I feel like I'm floating up them rather than fighting up them. When I'm forced to ride faster or slower than this place, I tend to enjoy the riding less. I've been on many faster group rides that I had to push like crazy just to hang and some where I had to push, but that put me in the front as one of the stronger riders. I can't say I particularly enjoy either experience (although its certainly more fun being in the front) as much as my own-pace rides. Based on this, I know that racing isn't for me and likely wouldn't be even if I was loads faster. And, oh yeah, I really don't like crashing and the incidence of crashes goes WAAAAY up in races, particularly the lower level races I'd be in.

OTOH, bike racing has become just about my favorite spectator sport and I'm endlessly fascinated by the tactics of racing, even though I've never applied them myself. So I'm REAL glad there are people who like to race and have nothing but respect for racers and what they put themselves through. I just know myself well enough to know it's not for me.

-Ray

[David Kirk]

I feel that the suffering is an escape that some of us need at times. A way to detatch from reality. Not unlike some altered states one achieves during meditation.

When the activity is so intense it will not allow for any other thoughts to take hold and that brings relief.

Dave

[Climb01742]

life is a search for meaning. we invest "meaning" in many external things: love, jobs, racing, the list goes on. then what happens when we lose that thing? we love our life's meaning. the more we've invested in that meaning, the more devestating the loss.

it's the "problem" with seeking meaning in external things; things that can be lost. we all do it; i do it. i wish i didn't.

training for mt washington has given my riding more "meaning". sorta. it's good in some ways; not so good in others.

but i really believe that life is a search for meaning. a search that hopes the possibility for much happiness and much sadness.

oy.

[swoop]

I feel that the suffering is an escape that some of us need at times. A way to detatch from reality. Not unlike some altered states one achieves during meditation.

When the activity is so intense it will not allow for any other thoughts to take hold and that brings relief.

Dave

the link to meditation is right on in my book. cycling is a meditation.. the posture, the breathing, the repetative motion of pedaling, the connection to the core and the spine.... very much so. i used to sit a lot.

[Ginger]

Wasn't there a study that found that the state that cyclists reach was a similar state to that of meditation? The repitition of the motions or some such....(not terribly helpful today, am I...)

[swoop]

the goal of racing is to have fun.

[Ray]

I agree with the bit about meditation, but races and fast rides aren't the times I get there. It's the steady state rides where I get into a rhythm that I can stay in for hours. When I'm going really hard, I'm too busy thinking about how hard I can go and maintain it, the pain in my legs and lungs, when to recover, basically marshalling my resources at all times. I don't get into a meditative state when I'm dealing with all of that.

To each his or her own, though.

-Ray

[Ginger]

Ah...I forgot a line on my post suffering post....

Outside of human condition suffering...

Suffering for me is when I'm forced to be away from the bike...when I'm not allowed that capability to force myself past where I think I can go. It isn't a simple addiction to endorphines, it is far more than that. And probably a heck of a lot less. :)

[Too Tall]

Dreamin' John, yes. That was my thread and the fellow is a lawyer. He says he quit high profile work and now is much more at ease with his "skin" as it were. Insightful reading on your part. Coincidently, last sunday I found another similar rider. Woman passed me at about 25 mph on a flat road I was riding at 19ish...thinking she just wanted to see the Vanilla up close (wink wink) I waited for her to die. No soap. I followed her from about 30 feet back and she hammered between 25-28mph for 3 -4 miles and I decided to trade pulls...no sweat on her part. Neat part was talking to her when she finally decided to chill out...does not race, never did...no clue and she is 50 yrs. old ;) I told her about a local woman her same age and not much faster is the new Nat. Champ in TT and Crit. I told her about that gal and her response was as if I was speaking a foreign language. Refreshing and a little shocking and reminiscent of the lawyer...hmmm match made in heave? Def. got the feeling that hammering away on a bike is her happy place.

Mental illness in the pro peloton? Not pervasive or any more noticable than other sports that require total self absorbtion. Seriously.

[gone]

racing is so much fun and i would do and say just about anything to encourage you to give it a try.
...
i've met so many amazing people through racing... and that alone is reason enough to get into it.
I used to run competitively, primarily 10k, and was reasonably good at it (PR of 28:10). I worked full time and worked pretty hard but I lived for the next race, both for that moment of pure suffering/bliss that comes when you are pushing yourself really hard and for the afterwards of talking over the days events with what became a very close set of fellow racers.

Funnily enough, it's been more than 20 years since my last race and I still miss it. Ironically though, I've never felt compelled to race my bike. Nowadays, longer rides (not races) give me the same kind of pleasure that racing used to. I do ride hard but never so hard as I did when I was running.

[vaxn8r]

...Suffering is when there is no choice.
On the bike, I have a choice. What I experience when I'm pushing limits on the bike is far closer to joy than suffering.
I can do it - I choose to do it...

To me joy is so wrapped up in suffering it's hard to separate the two. Happiness is easy; like entertainment. Joy is hard. It's about overcoming.