Moots geometry: looking for answers

[bcroslin]

I'm saving my pennies for a Moots RSL and after studying geometry charts I feel like I fall somewhere between a 54 and 55. I've ridden a 54 and it felt too small but then the top tube seems to be the correct length. I've compared the RSL geometry to the 54cm Wraith I'm riding right now and the reach of the 54 Moots is about 2 cm's longer. I feel like the sloping top tube on the RSL is playing with my head. I'm going for the free 1 cm larger head tube but I'm wondering if I should go custom with the geometry. Problem is I don't know where to start because according to my fit numbers the geometry on the 54 is in the ballpark. After riding Cannondales for a few years I really want something with a sloping top tube but the RSL top tube almost looks like a MTB.

Anyone out there riding a stock RSL that can comment on the geometry? Anyone ordered a custom RSL that only slightly tweaked the geometry? I really want to get this right because I'm looking forward to riding the bike for a long time.

[beeatnik]

Is your Cannondale a 52 or 54?

[oldpotatoe]

I'm saving my pennies for a Moots RSL and after studying geometry charts I feel like I fall somewhere between a 54 and 55. I've ridden a 54 and it felt too small but then the top tube seems to be the correct length. I've compared the RSL geometry to the 54cm Wraith I'm riding right now and the reach of the 54 Moots is about 2 cm's longer. I feel like the sloping top tube on the RSL is playing with my head. I'm going for the free 1 cm larger head tube but I'm wondering if I should go custom with the geometry. Problem is I don't know where to start because according to my fit numbers the geometry on the 54 is in the ballpark. After riding Cannondales for a few years I really want something with a sloping top tube but the RSL top tube almost looks like a MTB.

Anyone out there riding a stock RSL that can comment on the geometry? Anyone ordered a custom RSL that only slightly tweaked the geometry? I really want to get this right because I'm looking forward to riding the bike for a long time.

Well, it's a combination of top tube length AND seat tube angle, saddle height and head tube length. The place to start is making sure your knee is in the best place, seat for-aft, then the top tube length and stem length can be determined. If the fore-aft isn't consistent between a frame that fits and the Moots, the 'proper' top tube length can't be determined.

[bcroslin]

Is your Cannondale a 52 or 54?

size 54cm - top tube is 54.5 but the head tube was too small.

Well, it's a combination of top tube length AND seat tube angle, saddle height and head tube length. The place to start is making sure your knee is in the best place, seat for-aft, then the top tube length and stem length can be determined. If the fore-aft isn't consistent between a frame that fits and the Moots, the 'proper' top tube length can't be determined.

My numbers are good and the 54 RSL appears to be the right bike. I went from a 110 stem on the Wraith to a 100 stem on the RSL but I've got what looks to me like a mile of seat post showing.

[beeatnik]

^Go with the 55.

I've always ridden 54 Cannondales and 56 Moots. I'm sure I'd be fine on a 55; although, my saddle to bar drop would increase from 10.5 to 12cm.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7244/26434885143_70515f45f0_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1573/24861687785_9fe1525b08_o.jpg

[bcroslin]

^Go with the 55.

I've always ridden 54 Cannondales and 56 Moots. I'm sure I'd be fine on a 55; although, my saddle to bar drop would increase from 10.5 to 12cm.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7244/26434885143_70515f45f0_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1573/24861687785_9fe1525b08_o.jpg

Ok, so a crap-load of seat post is normal. I know the top tube on the RSL is super sloping but I had not idea.

[John H.]

I wouldn't hesitate to go custom if their stock offering is not an ideal fit.
I for one am not a fan of how steep their head angles are on the size that I ride (coincidently it is the same size you ride 54-55).
The RSL bikes also average about 10.5 degrees of slope- that is a lot of slope.

One other thing to under is that Moots is not an "absolute" custom. They only change dimensions in 5mm increments.

[Peter P.]

It's the one degree difference in seat angle between the Moots and the Wraith which appears to result in the 2cm longer reach.

If you buy the Moots with its 74 degree seat angle, you'll have to slide the seat rearward to maintain your position over the pedals. That will effectively increase your reach.

If I were you, I'd keep saving those pennies until you could afford a custom Moots so you could better replicate your Wraith's geometry, or buy something else that fits better off the rack.

[bcroslin]

It's the one degree difference in seat angle between the Moots and the Wraith which appears to result in the 2cm longer reach.

If you buy the Moots with its 74 degree seat angle, you'll have to slide the seat rearward to maintain your position over the pedals. That will effectively increase your reach.

If I were you, I'd keep saving those pennies until you could afford a custom Moots so you could better replicate your Wraith's geometry, or buy something else that fits better off the rack.

I actually want the more aggressive seat tube angle because the Wraith is too laid back. I'm borrowing a 54 RSL for a few days to ride and see if it works. Its a bike Ive previously ridden and thought was a little too small but looking at the numbers I think it's what I need.

[mod6]

I demoed a 54 cm RSL and found it had to much drop for my taste running a 73 cm saddle height. So maybe sizing up to 55 would be a good option or save up for a custom geometry and/or explore other builders. Kent Ericksen would a great option, big tubes like the RSL but with a fit that would work for you. My Ericksen with a 545mm tt and 14.5 ht. Original built picture as I have since removed half the spacers under the stem.

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y446/K2razorback/Eriksen/IMG_5187_zps77828cf8.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/K2razorback/media/Eriksen/IMG_5187_zps77828cf8.jpg.html)

[bcroslin]

I demoed a 54 cm RSL and found it had to much drop for my taste running a 73 cm saddle height. So maybe sizing up to 55 maybe a good option or save up for a custom geometry and/or explore custom options. Kent Ericksen would a great option, big tubes like the RSL but with a fit that would work for you. My Ericksen with a 545mm tt and 14.5 ht.

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y446/K2razorback/Eriksen/IMG_5187_zps77828cf8.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/K2razorback/media/Eriksen/IMG_5187_zps77828cf8.jpg.html)

your ericksen looks like it would be a perfect fit. is that custom or a standard geo?

[mod6]

I bought it second hand from Kent as it was original build for bicycling magazine test/article. I spoke with Kent, gave him my measurements and he said the frame would fit well and it does. Not sure of the angles but has less slope than the RSL with a taller head tube. Pretty sure his frame price would be less than a RSL

[Ralph]

C Dale Synopse Evo has longer head tube size for size. Am considering one. Much overlooked frame.

[sandyrs]

Ignore the seat tube length. It doesn't matter. If the right fit means lots of seatpost showing, then set it up that way.

[chiasticon]

I know the top tube on the RSL is super sloping but I had not idea.that's actually why I kinda dislike the RSL. I realize it adds to the stiffness of it and that's part of the focus of the bike, but it just doesn't work visually for me. but to each their own! I'm sure it's an awesome ride!

anyway, I suggest plugging your cannondale's geo and the moot's geo into bike comparator: http://gearinches.com/blog/misc/bike-geometry-comparator

absolutely invaluable tool when trying to compare the geometry and setup of two bikes. will help you push aside the visual elements and just focus on where the contact points are.

[bcroslin]

Ignore the seat tube length. It doesn't matter. If the right fit means lots of seatpost showing, then set it up that way.

That's what they keep telling me. Guess I'm just going to have to get used to it.

[sandyrs]

That's what they keep telling me. Guess I'm just going to have to get used to it.

It's definitely a different look from traditional level top tubes but I like it. If it's not your thing but you're set on a Moots, it might be worth considering one of the less-sloping Moots frames?

[Mikej]

The RSL is not just for looks - meaning the more than normal seat tube showing is to soften up the ride, a ti 30.9 seat post can be pretty stiff, but Moots also has its larger diameter top and down tubes , 1" tapered chain stays, and micro seat stays, the skinny seat stays can only be made so long (while keeping the weight down), also part of the skinny seat stays is to soften the ride. I know how you feel, I wanted an RSL SOOO BAD! but they couldn't make it work for me. ERIKSEN made it work, however. And I saved 2 grand.

[bcroslin]

The RSL is not just for looks - meaning the more than normal seat tube showing is to soften up the ride, a ti 30.9 seat post can be pretty stiff, but Moots also has its larger diameter top and down tubes , 1" tapered chain stays, and micro seat stays, the skinny seat stays can only be made so long (while keeping the weight down), also part of the skinny seat stays is to soften the ride. I know how you feel, I wanted an RSL SOOO BAD! but they couldn't make it work for me. ERIKSEN made it work, however. And I saved 2 grand.

I've asked about tweaking the geometry some to make the seat tube a little longer and the top tube a little shorter and was told Moots HQ would likely try and talk me out of it due to the characteristics of the RSL frame. I really have my heart set on an RSL and I'm happy to ride the 54 and take the option for the 1 cm longer head tube. I just wanted to ask around to make sure others riding an RSL have the same experience.

And, the Ericksen's are very nice bikes. I know a few people who own them and love them. With that said, I want a Moots. :)

[sparky33]

Assuming you can get the saddle in the right spot in relation to the bottom bracket, it then comes to a comparison of stack and reach figures.

I ride a Moots 54, and in my mind Cannondale geometry always looks uniquely fitting because the stack and reach figures are darn close.
RSL s/r 54 is 560/385
CDale SSix 54 s/r is 551/387

[beeatnik]

Get a 55

[bcroslin]

Get a 55

I took a 25 mile spin on the 54 this morning and it's the right bike. I'll be riding it for another few days but I'm convinced it's the correct geometry. It just freaked me out to see all that exposed seat post. If I were to go with a 55 I'd need a 90 stem and it would be slammed.

[crossjunkee]

I can't make Moots geometry work for me. I seem to be in between sizes. I love the RSL's and the way they ride. I'd do custom since it isn't that much more. BUT, I don't think I'd pass up an Eriksen for the same $$$.

[crossjunkee]

I took a 25 mile spin on the 54 this morning and it's the right bike. I'll be riding it for another few days but I'm convinced it's the correct geometry. It just freaked me out to see all that exposed seat post. If I were to go with a 55 I'd need a 90 stem and it would be slammed.

post a pic. How much post is showing?

[sparky33]

I took a 25 mile spin on the 54 this morning and it's the right bike. I'll be riding it for another few days but I'm convinced it's the correct geometry. It just freaked me out to see all that exposed seat post. If I were to go with a 55 I'd need a 90 stem and it would be slammed.

90 stem could be sub-optimal for getting the right proportion of weight over the front wheel on a racing bike.

[oldpotatoe]

The RSL is not just for looks - meaning the more than normal seat tube showing is to soften up the ride, a ti 30.9 seat post can be pretty stiff, but Moots also has its larger diameter top and down tubes , 1" tapered chain stays, and micro seat stays, the skinny seat stays can only be made so long (while keeping the weight down), also part of the skinny seat stays is to soften the ride. I know how you feel, I wanted an RSL SOOO BAD! but they couldn't make it work for me. ERIKSEN made it work, however. And I saved 2 grand.

So same diameter tubes thruout as RSL, same 6/4 seat stays of same dimension?

[Mikej]

So same diameter tubes thruout as RSL, same 6/4 seat stays of same dimension?

27.2 post, std 3/2.5 seat stays, 1" chain stays, 1 625" DT 1.5" TT. Its actually beefier than the RSL, .25 lbs. heavier. Full Custom w/ BSA BB.
IPhone photo always seems to distort bikes.

[oldpotatoe]

27.2 post, std 3/2.5 seat stays, 1" chain stays, 1 625" DT 1.5" TT. Its actually beefier than the RSL, .25 lbs. heavier. Full Custom w/ BSA BB.
IPhone photo always seems to distort bikes.

Beautiful rig, but really more like a CR, yes? Not trying to split hairs or get into a Eriksen-Moots debate but I don't think Kent really makes a "RSL"...

Yes I am an admitted Moots fan boy...guilty.

[sw3759]

27.2 post, std 3/2.5 seat stays, 1" chain stays, 1 625" DT 1.5" TT. Its actually beefier than the RSL, .25 lbs. heavier. Full Custom w/ BSA BB.
IPhone photo always seems to distort bikes.



bike looks familier...isn't that the bike that the guy in the review asked for it to be built super stiff against what Kent advised him and then he admitted was too stiff :confused:

btw,it is a great looking bike though and hope your happy with it.i love Kents work

[Mikej]

bike looks familier...isn't that the bike that the guy in the review asked for it to be built super stiff against what Kent advised him and then he admitted was too stiff :confused:

btw,it is a great looking bike though and hope your happy with it.i love Kents work

No that's not me. I read that review as well. And to potatoe, it's not an RSL or a cr - you can't get 1" stays from moots other than the RSL - I'm sure you could get a cr with larger diameter tubes.

[mod6]

That would be my bike posted on the first page. Kent refurbished it before he sold it to me. Originally it had orange decals.

bike looks familier...isn't that the bike that the guy in the review asked for it to be built super stiff against what Kent advised him and then he admitted was too stiff :confused:

btw,it is a great looking bike though and hope your happy with it.i love Kents work

[sw3759]

That would be my bike posted on the first page. Kent refurbished it before he sold it to me. Originally it had orange decals.

oops.yes,thanks just noticed that.wasn't enough paying attention I guess.
I was just curious regarding your take on overall stiffness after what the review said it being too stiff? assuming your quite happy with it?

[Cat3roadracer]

If you are buying this new why would you not be properly fitted?

A lifelong envestment, why guess?

[mod6]

Yes the bike is stiff but in the right way. The bike jumps when needed but is planted over crappy roads for which we have plenty. I've ridden a few 100 plus mile rides on the bike and never felt beat up at the end of the ride. On twisty downhills over 30 the bike craves like a knife, pure joy.

oops.yes,thanks just noticed that.wasn't enough paying attention I guess.
I was just curious regarding your take on overall stiffness after what the review said it being too stiff? assuming your quite happy with it?

[bcroslin]

If you are buying this new why would you not be properly fitted?

A lifelong envestment, why guess?

I have had a fit done and basically I was second guessing my fitter.

I rode the snot out of the RSL on a 50 mile training ride tonight and I'm in love. The bike is so predictable and handles like a go cart through corners. And it's comfortable which defies logic.

I'm going with the 54 that my fitter advised me to go with and I'll be doing a 145 head tube so I can slam the stem. I'm also going with etap for a super clean look. I can't freakin wait.

[bcroslin]

Happy to report.....

I ORDERED A MOOTS RSL!!!!

I haven't been this excited about a bike for a very long time. Thanks Paceline for helping see the light when it comes to metal bikes.

[crossjunkee]

Cooool! Love that new bike smell!

Of course we'll need an update with pic's once it's built, seat height measurement, etc.

[chiasticon]

NICE! an RSL with eTap sounds so good. congrats! :beer:

[xeladragon]

Just curious... why not just go with the standard head tube length and use a 10mm spacer? I know everyone thinks a Ti bike is a lifetime bike, but that's rarely the case (at least for bike geeks like us). A slightly shorter head tube might make it a little easier to sell down the road. Just my 2 cents.

[beeatnik]

^Or he could get a 55. Haha.

Geoz

Cannondale: 54.7 ett, 55.1 Stack, 38.7 Reach, 73.8 SA
Moots 54: 54.5 ett, 56 Stack, 38.5 Reach, 74 SA
Moots 55: 55.5 ett, 57.2 Stack, 38.7 Reach, 73.5 SA

OP, you run the 30mm conical spacer on your Evo?

[bitpuddle]

I'm saving my pennies for a Moots RSL and after studying geometry charts I feel like I fall somewhere between a 54 and 55. I've ridden a 54 and it felt too small but then the top tube seems to be the correct length. I've compared the RSL geometry to the 54cm Wraith I'm riding right now and the reach of the 54 Moots is about 2 cm's longer.

Funny - I have a Wraith Hustle and I'm probably going to get an RSL Disc in the spring. The stock RSL will be a bit longer and lower than the Hustle. (I'm also not entirely sure the stack/reach is correct on Wraith's site). The stock RSL will handle a bit differently: it has a bit more BB drop and a bit steeper head angle. I don't remember the trail figures for either offhand.

I'm planning to get custom geometry, as the extra cost isn't so much given how expensive Moots already are and I'd like the contact points to be largely the same as my Parlee.

[oldpotatoe]

Just curious... why not just go with the standard head tube length and use a 10mm spacer? I know everyone thinks a Ti bike is a lifetime bike, but that's rarely the case (at least for bike geeks like us). A slightly shorter head tube might make it a little easier to sell down the road. Just my 2 cents.

Respectfully disagree but who knows about the future. Even tho a race oriented frame, longer headtubes are 'd' rigueur' these days...all about comfort and the greying of america..even the 'racy' Spec-Ed road full sus 'road' bike..:)

Besides, 1cm..1/3 of an inch.

[bcroslin]

Just curious... why not just go with the standard head tube length and use a 10mm spacer? I know everyone thinks a Ti bike is a lifetime bike, but that's rarely the case (at least for bike geeks like us). A slightly shorter head tube might make it a little easier to sell down the road. Just my 2 cents.

I'm 45 and I'm not getting any more flexible. I'll never need that extra 10cm and I want the clean look of a slammed stem.

^Or he could get a 55. Haha.

Geoz

Cannondale: 54.7 ett, 55.1 Stack, 38.7 Reach, 73.8 SA
Moots 54: 54.5 ett, 56 Stack, 38.5 Reach, 74 SA
Moots 55: 55.5 ett, 57.2 Stack, 38.7 Reach, 73.5 SA

OP, you run the 30mm conical spacer on your Evo?

I moved from the Evo to the Wraith and like the geometry and fit much better. When I was on the EVO I ran about 15mm of spacers under the stem. The 54 RSL is closer to the Wraith but just a little longer. On the 54 RSL I'm riding right this very moment I'm running a 100 cm stem with 10cm of spacers and a saddle height of around 738 which puts me in the same position as on the Wraith. I've ridden a 55 RSL and it's just a tiny bit too big for me. I could make it work but the reach would be just a little too long.

Funny - I have a Wraith Hustle and I'm probably going to get an RSL Disc in the spring. The stock RSL will be a bit longer and lower than the Hustle. (I'm also not entirely sure the stack/reach is correct on Wraith's site). The stock RSL will handle a bit differently: it has a bit more BB drop and a bit steeper head angle. I don't remember the trail figures for either offhand.

My fitter and I measured the Wraith with the assumption that the published numbers were wrong but the stack and reach numbers are correct.

As far as head tube length for resale goes I don't plan on reselling but if I did I don't think it would hurt me. I plan on keeping the Moots for the foreseeable future and if I get an itch for another bike it would be Moots+1.

[OtayBW]

I'm 45 and I'm not getting any more flexible. I'll never need that extra 10cm and I want the clean look of a slammed stem.
I can't argue with your personal preference, but mine is that a 1 cm spacer neither changes the aesthetic (in fact, I prefer it) nor the handling quality appreciably over that of a fully slammed stem. And again, for resale value, should it ever come to that, a steerer tube cut to the max doesn't help. Just my $0.02....

GL with the new ride!

[bcroslin]

First ride on the RSL last night and all I can say is I'm in love. The etap rocks as well. Magic shifters with no cables. Crazy train. So much stoke.

I haven't had a chance to shoot any gratuitous photos of it yet but I was able to snap a quicky with my phone.

Thanks again PL for showing me the light

[GT2R]

That's tight. Well done.

[pdmtong]

Congrats

Did you order the frame without stops or holes so it is eTap only?

[chiasticon]

Did you order the frame without stops or holes so it is eTap only?and if so, did Moots give you a discount for less labor? :D

awesome bike! congrats!

[Mikej]

nice!

[bcroslin]

Congrats

Did you order the frame without stops or holes so it is eTap only?

Yup, no holes! Super clean and I honestly can't imagine not riding wireless electronic moving forward. Etap is just so frickin easy and it works so well. No idea how it will hold up over the long haul but I'm assuming Shimano and Campy will have a wireless group by the time the etap bites the dust so there should be options and then there's always zip ties ;)

[sw3759]

Yup, no holes! Super clean and I honestly can't imagine not riding wireless electronic moving forward. Etap is just so frickin easy and it works so well. No idea how it will hold up over the long haul but I'm assuming Shimano and Campy will have a wireless group by the time the etap bites the dust so there should be options and then there's always zip ties ;)

yeah you can always send it back to get stuff added but they wont cut anything off..i already asked.sending back for refurb and I wanted to try an etap group on my PX and keep the canti's but no go...