Can-Am toy on ebay (OT)

[oliver1850]

This was perhaps the fastest, most dominant car of the 5 liter era. Rosberg, Rahal, E. F-R, Fabi, and Holbert featured prominently; Tambay, Jones, Ickx, and Brabham won championships but I think of this as the best car ever built for the formula, with the VDS cars a close second. It's hard to say how much credit the car deserves, as Al Unser Jr. was fearless - and skilled way beyond his experience at the time. As I recall, Al's Frissbee was the first car since the Penske/Donahue Porsche 917/30 to break the 2 minute lap time at Road America. The 917 had more than twice (and perhaps nearly 3x) the horsepower by some estimates.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.php?RaceID=C82D

Couldn't find qualifying time for the Donahue 917 in 1973 but I believe it was the first car to lap RA under 2 minutes, with perhaps 1,500 hp on tap.

Anyone want to go partners? I'd sell all my bikes to have a piece of this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRISSBEE-LOLA-Vintage-Race-Car-CAN-AM-CHAMPIONSHIOP-CAR-/252523260798?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3acb8f2b7e:g:wE8AAOSwvzRXyfUK&item=252523260798

Anyone wanting to buy a bicycle?

Historical aside: Al Sr. won the 1980 Laguna Seca Can-Am, the first win for a Frissbee.

[mwynne]

Not a car guy, but that would make excellent inspiration for a bike paint job...

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[dustyrider]

You can almost feel your insides sucking back just looking at that thing!

I like your idea of trying to source partners. There must be a paceliner near a nice track, someone into keeping up with the maintenance would get a share, couple of others and the bikes can stay right where they belong.

Wonder what the local listing sale price is?

[Mr. Pink]

Good lord. 550 hp of good old Murican iron pushing just 1800 pounds. What a roar that thing must have made. Saw a Can Am race at the Glen a bit before that, and they were something to see. And hear.

[oliver1850]

You can almost feel your insides sucking back just looking at that thing!

I like your idea of trying to source partners. There must be a paceliner near a nice track, someone into keeping up with the maintenance would get a share, couple of others and the bikes can stay right where they belong.

Wonder what the local listing sale price is?

That is the approach that got me involved in motorsports in the first place - back when it was cheap!

Car is in Seattle but perhaps locally it's just a word of mouth sale or an excuse to end the auction early.

[oliver1850]

Good lord. 550 hp of good old Murican iron pushing just 1800 pounds. What a roar that thing must have made. Saw a Can Am race at the Glen a bit before that, and they were something to see. And hear.

Just idling by:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhA5VuWeZQ

[oliver1850]

Not a car guy, but that would make excellent inspiration for a bike paint job...

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Might be hard to translate the paint job to a bike due to lack of surface area.

Though the body is perhaps the prettiest Can-Am car ever, the real beauty of the car was the workmanship in the chassis. I remember looking at the car at the 1982 Las Vegas GP, and thinking how much better it looked than all the other Lola based cars in the series. I have no idea who built the tub, etc. but would be interested to know.

[Bruce K]

I'll have to try and find a picture of one of these at Limerock (pre-chicane) that got airborne and backflipped at about 125 mph.

The drivers helmet got pulled off his head as the car slid along the pavement.

He managed to walk away without a scratch (though there was a pretty big laundry job !!)

Pretty scary stuff.

BK

[oliver1850]

Was it a Frissbee that went over? I was at the 1983 Lime Rock Can-Am, can't remember if I was there on Saturday or Sunday but don't remember any incidents. My best memory of that event was talking to Milt Minter about the Herb Adams pod car he was driving. Great concept with the engine on one side between the front and rear wheels, the driver on the other side. Left room for a huge venturi down the center.

Road Atlanta was notorious for CanAm cars doing endos. I'm pretty sure at least one 917 went over - can't recall if it was a Penske or Vasek Polak car.

[Peter P.]

Not a car guy, but that would make excellent inspiration for a bike paint job...


I think there's much inspiration to be found for bike paint jobs by perusing race cars and hot rods.

[bikinchris]

The problem with Can-Am was ground effects and brake technology were far behind the go tech. Those cars were dangerous. Maybe it's time for a revival?

[Bruce K]

Might not have been the Frisbee. But it was definitely one of the Lola derivatives.

There was a 2 car team that had been bought by some rich guy. He hired Brian Redman to drive one and he drove the other. Windy day and the chief steward warned them all about lifting for the uphill at the driver's meeting because the wind was coming straight down the track from West Bend with 20 mph gusts.

He got the nose off the ground and a gust caught the car and flipped it. I have a full motor drive sequence of the flip that Geoff Heward (a motorsports photographer) took, including the corner workers kicking the helmet (to be sure his head wasn't in it) as they approached the car.

They had to lift it up to get him out.

He never drove a race car again.

BK

[Rusty Luggs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS8Nd-mtZm0

This the one? Lola T333

[Plum Hill]

Saw it at Road America in '82.

This available if you're looking for a "sister" car: http://www.canamcarsltd.com/car/1983-Eagle-Indy-Car- .

[oliver1850]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS8Nd-mtZm0

This the one? Lola T333

That would probably make most guys give up driving, but Claude was still driving an RX-7 as late as 2000.

[oliver1850]

Might not have been the Frisbee. But it was definitely one of the Lola derivatives.

There was a 2 car team that had been bought by some rich guy. He hired Brian Redman to drive one and he drove the other. Windy day and the chief steward warned them all about lifting for the uphill at the driver's meeting because the wind was coming straight down the track from West Bend with 20 mph gusts.

He got the nose off the ground and a gust caught the car and flipped it. I have a full motor drive sequence of the flip that Geoff Heward (a motorsports photographer) took, including the corner workers kicking the helmet (to be sure his head wasn't in it) as they approached the car.

They had to lift it up to get him out.

He never drove a race car again.

BK

I couldn't find any record of Redman driving a single seat Can Am at Lime Rock. He could have driven in practice with someone else qualifying and racing though.

The car that Gou drove was owned by Paul Wheatley, who had driven it to 8th place in the previous round at Mosport, but there was only one car entered at both events.

[oliver1850]

Saw it at Road America in '82.

This available if you're looking for a "sister" car: http://www.canamcarsltd.com/car/1983-Eagle-Indy-Car- .

I saw that, the 1983 Galles Eagle that Jr. drove trying to block Sneva at Indy so his dad could win.

Chuck has owned nearly every Indy and Can Am car ever built I think.

[oliver1850]

Perhaps it would have sold if bids had reached $150,000? That was the figure in my mind, but maybe on the low end.

[Mr. Pink]

At least you wouldn't have to hire a combination watchmaker/rocket scientist to get that engine up to speed when you track it. And, I certainly hope that it will be tracked, and not sitting in some museum somewhere.

[csm]

Interesting.
Just got back from SVRA at the Glen.... Not many can am cars this weekend.
'Vettes and trans am cars mostly.


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[Bruce K]

1983

Norwood Walker Racing #25

VDS not a Frisbee

Phil Compton flipped it. Michael Roe drove the other to second place. BTW - it was Al Holbert not Redmsn.

(Hey, it was 33 years ago!)

Pictures soon

Jacques Villenuve, Sr., Charles Monk, and Horst Kroll had Frisbees.

BK

[oliver1850]

Interesting.
Just got back from SVRA at the Glen.... Not many can am cars this weekend.
'Vettes and trans am cars mostly.


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Perhaps the turnout will be better at RA next weekend. Unfortunately I have to attend a stupid wedding... Really now, what is more important?

[oliver1850]

1983

Norwood Walker Racing #25

VDS not a Frisbee

Phil Compton flipped it. Michael Roe drove the other to second place. BTW - it was Al Holbert not Redmsn.

(Hey, it was 33 years ago!)

Pictures soon

Jacques Villenuve, Sr., Charles Monk, and Horst Kroll had Frisbees.

BK

I'm with you Bruce on the memory bit. 1983 Lime Rock results show two VDS cars entered for Norwood/Walker. The records show the brand new VDS 003 car as being crashed in practice by Compton at its very first event. Such a shame as they were beautiful cars. If you read the notes, the car was still being rebuilt as of 2014.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.php?RaceID=C83B

I doubt that Al Holbert had anything to do with the VDS cars at that point. I spent a good part of April at the Holbert shop finishing up building the new Trans Am 924. Al was so busy that he was rarely seen in the shop. He graciously came up to Pocono for a short shake down test in the car before we headed off to the first TA race at Moroso on May 1. Al mostly ran the Holbert March/Chevrolet GTP in IMSA that year but he did drive at least one other car early in the season. He also won LeMans that year in the Rothmans 956 on June 19. I could be wrong but it seems unlikely to me he would have had time to assist with the VDS cars during such a busy schedule. A great guy to work with regardless. RIP Al.

[oliver1850]

Bidding got past $140,000 but didn't make the reserve. Without checking any of the details, I thought $150,000 would be about right for a sale. These cars moved around a lot after Galles sold them. The history might be a bit difficult to trace. I'm fairly sure the tub is not original, but that's not unusual. I wouldn't be surprised if half the F5000 based cars currently running have had new tubs, or major rebuilds.

Great to see that this car still exists.

[oliver1850]

Phil Compton apparently did race on. He's shown as competing in the CanAm races in Dallas in 1984 (Frissbee GR3), and at Mosport in 1986 (Watson/March 82C - see note #4 in link below)- also in IMSA GTP at Sears Point, 1986, in a March 83G/Chevrolet.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.php?RaceID=C86A

Typical of Watson to simply copy a March rather than order up a new one - and I don't mean that in any way to be a put-down.

[Bruce K]

Holbert raced the VDS 001 in 1982 if memory serves:rolleyes:

BK

[Plum Hill]

What's the background on the CAC-1 and CAC-2?
Built in-house?
Holbert ran those before switching to the VDS.

Googling after this thread hit, one site said Jr. was lapping one course three seconds faster than Donohue did in the 917.
Second generation Can-Am wasn't the chump change many said it was.

[Bruce K]

Here are some of Geoff's pictures that he turned into a poster

The full sequence is about 4-5 times as many photos

Trying hard to get it correct and not 90 degrees off

BK

[oliver1850]

Holbert raced the VDS 001 in 1982 if memory serves:rolleyes:

BK

Yes. Tambay was under contract to drive the whole season. VDS let him out after Atlanta so he could take over the Ferrari F1 drive after Gilles was killed at Zolder.

Holbert hadn't planned on running CanAm that year, but took over the VDS after Atlanta, winning 4 races during the season. I don't think he ever had anything to do with Norwood Walker though.

The Holbert CAC cars were designed by Lee Dykstra and built in the Holbert shop in Warrington, PA. When I was working there in 1983 there was an uncompleted tub in the rafters. I always wondered what became of it.

There was a lot of talent in the CanAm in the early 80s and the cars were nearly as fast as champ cars, but nearly everyone (drivers and crews) was headed for CART.

Those are some scary pics, Bruce. Thanks for digging them up.

[Corso]

As much as I love the sound of those big block chevy McLarens, this was the beast:

http://www.supercars.net/blog/1973-porsche-91730-spyder/

[Bruce K]

I think if all the Can-Am cars from the original series, the various version of Chapparal created by Jim Hall always got my attention.

First with movable spoiler (2C), first with high wings (that were also driver controlled, but with a foot pedal) (2E), and the "Vacuum Cleaner" (2J) was something only a mad genius would think of.

BK

[oliver1850]

As much as I love the sound of those big block chevy McLarens, this was the beast:

http://www.supercars.net/blog/1973-porsche-91730-spyder/


It's hard to argue with the results, that car killed the competition, and the series.....

I give a lot of credit to whoever made the decisions at SCCA Pro racing at the time. John Timanus is one name that comes to mind, but I'm drawing a blank on others. After a couple of years hiatus they were able to build an essentially all new formula that attracted world class teams and drivers. In the single seat era the champions were:

1977: Patrick Tambay
1978: Alan Jones
1979: Jacky Ickx
1980: Patrick Tambay
1981: Geoff Brabham
1982: Al Unser Jr.

Among the also rans were:

Keke Rosberg
Bobby Rahal
Peter Gethin
Elliott Forbes-Robinson
Al Unser
Warwick Brown
George Follmer
Al Holbert
Geoff Lees
Teo Fabi
Danny Sullivan
Jeff Wood
John Morton
Rocky Moran
Jim Crawford
Bertil Roos
Jacques Villeneuve
Paul Tracy

There were so many other talented drivers who didn't have the resources to get much above the top five. John Kalagian and Rex Ramsey were very competitive with no sponsorship to speak of.

I guess you can't go home again but those days are really something we won't see again. I was reading a book yesterday where Doug Shierson was quoted as saying he paid something like $8,500 for a complete Chevron B24 F5000 with spares. That was the car that beat the F1 cars at the Race of Champions - with Peter Gethin at the wheel. I wonder if that wasn't a bit of a turning point for F1 vs. everyone else. Bernie may have already taken over Brabham by then, and could hardly have seen a Chevy powered car constructed by an upstart F2/sportscar firm as anything but a threat.

Perhaps it's my rose tinted glasses but I see the 1970s and early 80s as the most interesting period in motorsports history.

[jds108]

Great thread! As somebody who is/was just a little too young for this era of motorsport, this stuff is all fascinating to me.

I just need to keep reminding myself how expensive it is to maintain a track car... (at least if you're somebody like me who is only capable of simple maintenance)

[oliver1850]

Great thread! As somebody who is/was just a little too young for this era of motorsport, this stuff is all fascinating to me.

I just need to keep reminding myself how expensive it is to maintain a track car... (at least if you're somebody like me who is only capable of simple maintenance)

My advice to you: Racing is a great experience. Do it on someone else's dime. You can always volunteer. We had part time help even at the top tier of CART in the mid 1980s. It doesn't matter at which level at which you participate, the skills are the same. The game is about solving problems with limited resources, and is rewarding when you make a breakthrough no matter what type of car it is.