Ankling, Falling into my pedals, and Ti-Designs

[jzisk]

In the day we called it ankling, I said in a way back when posting, to some derision, and now seems so simplistic. Having read several times the many postings and several threads, and having spent a year or so really focused on my ways of settling into a hard ride, and pedaling form, i say thank you Ti-Designs. I'm feeling the aesthetic, rolling in the beauty of a nice stroke, a fundamentally more conscious ride. Tomorrow is a century ride for a local charity, and I'll be picturing many of Ti-Design's adages and axioms as I go. Thanks all, who were part of those long discussions.

[weisan]

So, jzisk pal, I am a fan of Ti pal too, not so much of his pedaling philosophy but more of his quirkiness...:D

Could you explain to us, in your own words, what you gleaned or learned so far?

[jzisk]

"Ankling" in 1975 or so, when I raced in college, was simply the angle of your ankle at points in the rotation; smooth motion to the changes in angle, but little logic and unclear puprose beyond maximizing. But all of what Ti said merely seemed like a restatement of that, when I first reas the long discussion about "falling...".

As I reviewed some of that discussion in my mind while riding--the "sack of potatoes...", the position in saddle, the muscle groups involved changing, and the implied power or efficiency of stroke--I did not necessarily agree with all details and reasoning, but it changed my focus to a sort of maximization of all appropriate bodily optimizations, really just feeling everything at work, but emanating from my feet and ankles being in the right orientation, smoothly and at each moment.

So it's still ankling to me, but folds in many of the centered, conscious, grounde, intentional (and other psychobabble as needed) meditative aspects of riding. It got the Buddhist in me closer to the exercise physiologist in me. And my speeds went up.

[weisan]

Wow...THANK YOU for sharing your thoughts.

[jzisk]

Pretty garbled and post-haste typing. Next time I'll slow down.

[weisan]

:p

Stream of consciousness.

[jzisk]

Ah la Jack K. Not always the clearest writer.

[ripvanrando]

Ah la Jack K. Not always the clearest writer.

Are you faster now?

More power?

[OtayBW]

Ah la Jack K. Not always the clearest writer.
Perhaps you should write more like Gary S. than Jack K?

[Bob Ross]

From what I know about "Falling On The Pedals" -- which admittedly is only what I've gleaned from reading this forum and scratching my head a bit -- Ed would insist his technique has nothing to do with "ankling".

But if what you're doing causes you to arrive at this:
It got the Buddhist in me closer to the exercise physiologist in me.
then I say "Bravo!" and encourage you to keep doing it.

[Ti Designs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt_dCpIQZyo

It's one of my first set of videos which I made a few years ago, somehow the bit about ankle position didn't make it into the new videos.


I did a fair amount of homework on this subject. One of the studies I found on the subject was that of Mario LaFortune M.S. and Peter Cavanagh Ph.D. from 1978 at the Biomechanics Lab at Penn State. The study was one of the last things on the desk of John Allis (my coach) when Raleigh moved to New Jersey, along with a note in John's writing that many of the things they were testing just don't work while pedaling a bike.

The debate over ankle position goes on, mostly driven by examples of riders who make a certain way work. It really comes down to the individual's body and the length of certain muscle groups. I've always noticed a more toes down position in long time runners. This is more due to the shortening of the calf muscles than active recruitment to point the toe down.

[redir]

I like the falling on the pedals idea. I think it came to me intuitively but now I notice that when I actually think about it when riding it works better. I think that is a lot of how these techniques that are developed on paper actually work. It's not, for example, that you 'scrape the mud' off your shoe but in just thinking about that analogy was how a lot of people developed that mental image of pedaling in circles.

[Ti Designs]

I like the falling on the pedals idea. I think it came to me intuitively but now I notice that when I actually think about it when riding it works better. I think that is a lot of how these techniques that are developed on paper actually work. It's not, for example, that you 'scrape the mud' off your shoe but in just thinking about that analogy was how a lot of people developed that mental image of pedaling in circles.

It's called the learning process, why we don't teach children about how we actually learn from a very young age is beyond me. Most people don't really understand the process, the result is thinking that you know how to do things you really don't know how to do - cycling is a good example. The pedal is controlled by the crank and bottom bracket, you can't make it go in anything other than a circle. That lack of a failure state leads people into thinking they know how to pedal a bike. The little tricks that have come out over the years are ways of adapting other skill sets, but they follow the same three step process as any other learning process:

Cognitive stage: Understanding what must happen, thinking about which muscles have to engage for it to work. With the example of scraping mud, there is already a learned timing sequence - it only works when your foot is on the ground, but your body weight isn't on that foot. There is a failure state to that motor skill, try scraping mud when your foot isn't on the ground or your full weight is on it.

Associative stage: This is when you think about the motion and timing as you're riding. Most of your concentration is focused on this one simple task - one muscle group, one timing sequence.

Autonomous stage: The skill set no longer takes focus, it happens as a background task. This is where you are in every motor skill you have. You don't think about walking, there are hundreds of muscles with their own timing sequences, and yet you just do it.


When I tell someone I teach pedaling, and they say "I just ride for fun", I know that they don't really understand the learning process. Unless you really don't give a crap about how poorly you do something, the first step should be learning how to do it. Because the bike all but eliminates the failure state in the pedal stroke, people are happy to overlook the learning process - it doesn't mean they know how to pedal a bike...

Here's the scary part: In how many other things do people just skip the learning process and assume they know how to do things? YouTube isn't a learning process, it's only the associative stage.


Understanding the learning process and the pedal stroke has it's advantages. People in hilly regions learn how to climb better, people in flat areas know how to go faster on the flats - it's an adaptation of their pedal stroke. I head back to Florida in a few months, I have that time to shift my strength from hill climbing to flat speed.

And for what it's worth, I don't teach the scraping mud method of recruiting the hamstrings. It's the longest muscle in the body, it has a poor system of leverage, and it has a tendency to cramp. Considering the force generated compared to the two large muscle groups, most people would be better off focusing on getting the glutes and quads working.

[stephenmarklay]

I “think” your ideas have worked for me. It certainly made me think and I made changes to my fit. Before this I just did what I was told without a lot of thought.

Now my stem is a little higher to give my hip flexors a leg up (pun intended), my seat is setback to allow me to fall on the pedals and use my big butt. As of lately I am thinking about my quads (the butt is now in the autonomous stage) kicking for speed. That has sped up things and smoothed things out a bit. This is not yet autonomous.

The only other thing I do at times is take giant steps, especially when doing lower cadence high tension, as this reminds me to unweight my non power leg. Seems to help.

When I put it altogether I will be a speed demon!

[tmarcus1076]

[QUOTE=Ti Designs;2044779]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt_dCpIQZyo

I watched some of the videos and have a few questions. I looks from the video that the saddle has the nose up. It also states, correct me if I'm wrong, not to peddle in the drops. Tony

[fuzzalow]

Here's the scary part: In how many other things do people just skip the learning process and assume they know how to do things?

Driving a car, for one. Every driver thinks, and would say, they are a "better than average" driver. That kind of self stroking is thinking that gets bicyclists killed or maimed.

This is the modern world, legions upon leagues of social media intoxicated morons who believe a world of self absorption is freedom.

[redir]

Yup scraping mud is an old school methodology. I stopped doing that a long time ago and shortly there after noticed that I no longer get cramped up legs in the back.

[Ti Designs]

[QUOTE=Ti Designs;2044779]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt_dCpIQZyo

I watched some of the videos and have a few questions. I looks from the video that the saddle has the nose up. It also states, correct me if I'm wrong, not to peddle in the drops.


On my trainer set-up, the front wheel is higher than the rear wheel. That combined with the shape of that saddle makes it look very nose up in the video.

As for pedaling in the drops, that has to do with the individual's range of motion. The lower the back position the greater the angle at the hip, at some point you run into limits on range of motion. In fitting I make sure the rider is within range of motion from the tops out to the hoods. That's not to say that being in the drops is outside of the range of motion, but most people are.

The next question asked is "why not raise the bars so they can use the drops?" Each position on the bars has a reason. The horizontal adjustment going from tops to hoods allows the rider to move their center of gravity horizontally to adjust for how much weight the pedal will support. The drops are about lowering the center of gravity.

[JStonebarger]

I don't quite understand. If I can pedal comfortably while in the drops how can I be out of my range of motion? Or put another way, what is ROM? Obviously you're defining it more narrowly than the actual range of what's mechanically possible.

Even without taking aerodynamics into account, I often like riding in the drops. The lower COG definitely helps with technical stuff, but I also feel as if I'm using my glutes more. Is that a bad thing?

[stephenmarklay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt_dCpIQZyo

It's one of my first set of videos which I made a few years ago, somehow the bit about ankle position didn't make it into the new videos.


I did a fair amount of homework on this subject. One of the studies I found on the subject was that of Mario LaFortune M.S. and Peter Cavanagh Ph.D. from 1978 at the Biomechanics Lab at Penn State. The study was one of the last things on the desk of John Allis (my coach) when Raleigh moved to New Jersey, along with a note in John's writing that many of the things they were testing just don't work while pedaling a bike.

The debate over ankle position goes on, mostly driven by examples of riders who make a certain way work. It really comes down to the individual's body and the length of certain muscle groups. I've always noticed a more toes down position in long time runners. This is more due to the shortening of the calf muscles than active recruitment to point the toe down.

I get what your are saying in the video about muscular inhibition and ankle position as you push.

However, I read about slighting raising the toe around 11:00 to facilitate earlier engagement the glutes. How do you feel about that?

[Pi Guy]

I don't quite understand. If I can pedal comfortably while in the drops how can I be out of my range of motion? Or put another way, what is ROM? Obviously you're defining it more narrowly than the actual range of what's mechanically possible.

Even without taking aerodynamics into account, I often like riding in the drops. The lower COG definitely helps with technical stuff, but I also feel as if I'm using my glutes more. Is that a bad thing?

Sounds like you are within your range of motion. He wasn't saying that if you are in the drops then you must be out of your range of motion, just that many folks happen to be. If you can pedal comfortably in the drops then that's great, there's nothing wrong with that.

As a side note I have never quite understood the folks that proclaim they are able to ride the drops all day. I just use the drops for descending, sprinting, and hard efforts where I need to get aero. The tops and hoods are my all day position. Maybe I'm missing something but that's what works for me.

[Ti Designs]

However, I read about slighting raising the toe around 11:00 to facilitate earlier engagement the glutes. How do you feel about that?


11:00 is way early to be engaging the glutes, the pedal is still gaining height. On the other hand, heel down (toe up) is nearly perfect for getting the quad into the action pushing forward. Try pointing your toe down and pushing something forward with your foot, you'll find that muscle on the outside of your shin (tibialis anterior) becomes the limiting factor. Then bring the toe up and try the same thing. By lifting the toe you're reducing the needed range of motion at the hip flexor and eliminating the tibialis as the limiting factor.

[stephenmarklay]

11:00 is way early to be engaging the glutes, the pedal is still gaining height. On the other hand, heel down (toe up) is nearly perfect for getting the quad into the action pushing forward. Try pointing your toe down and pushing something forward with your foot, you'll find that muscle on the outside of your shin (tibialis anterior) becomes the limiting factor. Then bring the toe up and try the same thing. By lifting the toe you're reducing the needed range of motion at the hip flexor and eliminating the tibialis as the limiting factor.

Perfect. Thank you.

Yes I was not trying to say the glutes would be engaged at 11:00 but that the toe up would put you in a position to start the contribution earlier rather than a toe down.

I noticed working with single leg drills that I naturally tend to be toe up across the top. I can’t feel it as much with two legs.

Side note:
********

Doing bigger power intervals, before I really started working your drills, I had an image (tricking my mind) that has a similar outcome to what you are doing. I am not sure if it was as precise.

IN MY MIND: The image was hiking fast up a steep inline (think 30% or greater.) This has me take giant steps toe up with a bit of forward motion (firing the quads), then engaging the glutes with my body weight on that forward foot. Big steps one after the other. Since the grade is so steep my forward foot does not go down to the flat earth below but an elevated earth which is like the 1:30-4:30 idea.

The GIANT steps I am thinking about get me really using my hip flexors without thinking about using my hip flexors ( I seem to get better activation with this image.) It makes pedaling (an unfamiliar or at least unnatural thing) a natural motion - hiking up a steep grade.

Again, nothing earth shattering just a mental image that seems to accomplish a similar thing, for me, to your very well thought out pedal breakdown.

[zap]

As a side note I have never quite understood the folks that proclaim they are able to ride the drops all day. I just use the drops for descending, sprinting, and hard efforts where I need to get aero. The tops and hoods are my all day position. Maybe I'm missing something but that's what works for me.

Some rides are hard efforts all the time. Besides, riding in the drops or resting forearms on bar tops is just another position that's comfortable but different. Plus for Zap, great therapy for the lower back.

All this assuming your back is pretty flat with earth, etc., etc.

[zap]

11:00 is way early to be engaging the glutes, the pedal is still gaining height.

that tiny, inefficient muscle is at play.....if you want to engage it.

[jzisk]

Every time I read through these long, erudite discussions of pedaling I end up back in 1972, with the putative experts then. We called it ankling, and I took some flack on this list-serve for trotting out that hackneyed term again. But it is indeed exactly what we learned, just put into a simpler mnemonic. So when we ankled correctly, the efficiency of the motion (...and hence the optimization of the various muscle-groups at different angles of attack; and hence the smoothness of the stroke; and hence the ability to spin quickly) was our real focus. And none of us treated it like a cookie-cutter routine-- we all talked about the sorts of things addressed in all your recent postings, albeit in primitive, prehistoric language. But it's ankling, even if TiDesigns has so eloquently deconstructed the process. I love you all, and all the meandering...

[dnc]

11:00 is way early to be engaging the glutes, the pedal is still gaining height. On the other hand, heel down (toe up) is nearly perfect for getting the quad into the action pushing forward. Try pointing your toe down and pushing something forward with your foot, you'll find that muscle on the outside of your shin (tibialis anterior) becomes the limiting factor. Then bring the toe up and try the same thing. By lifting the toe you're reducing the needed range of motion at the hip flexor and eliminating the tibialis as the limiting factor.


It may be hard to believe but the muscles that can apply the greatest force ( calf muscles) are not used for force application in natural pedalling. There is more than one way the glutes can be used, by a complete change in glute power generation at 11 o'c, the soleus and adjoining muscle can be activated and a maximal tangential force can be applied by all three powerful muscles ( glutes, quads and soleus) for maximal crank torque at 12, 1 and 2 o'c and merged with the natural maximal torque from 2 to 4 o'c. Unlike the natural pedalling power stroke this stroke ends at 5 o'c eliminating any wasted force that goes to ground when it ends at 6 o'c. The soleus muscle is fatigue resistant. This is what this pedalling technique looks like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

[Ti Designs]

I just saw this thread back on top and reread much of it. I happen to have the Study of Shoe-Pedal Interface in Bicycle Riding from the biomechanics lab at Penn State in 1978, all 270 pages of it. It was given to me by John Allis (it was left on his desk when he worked for Raleigh) in the late 80's when Computrainer came out with Spin Scan and everybody thought they could be so much faster by smoothing out a circle on the screen. It was his way of saying that there are always going to be idiots who focus on insignificant data points and never take a step back and look at the big picture.

[ergott]

always going to be idiots

A bit harsh, no?

[ripvanrando]

I just saw this thread back on top and reread much of it. I happen to have the Study of Shoe-Pedal Interface in Bicycle Riding from the biomechanics lab at Penn State in 1978, all 270 pages of it. It was given to me by John Allis (it was left on his desk when he worked for Raleigh) in the late 80's when Computrainer came out with Spin Scan and everybody thought they could be so much faster by smoothing out a circle on the screen. It was his way of saying that there are always going to be idiots who focus on insignificant data points and never take a step back and look at the big picture.

Then we'd have no forums?

[Mzilliox]

never mind

[Ti Designs]

A bit harsh, no?

I'm not saying that people who don't agree with my opinions or methods are idiots, I'm saying those who can't tell individual data points from the bigger picture (the forrest from the trees?) are idiots.

To argue if it's too harsh or not, we would have to define the term idiot. If you Google the term you get "a stupid person", which doesn't work in this case - intelligence has little to do with it. It's all about evaluation vs. assumption. An idiot as I'm using the term is a person who stubbornly sticks to their assumptions.

If it is harsh, it's intentional. The true idiot would stick to their assumptions and get angry at me - I'm OK with that. A small portion might question their assumptions and take a step back. I'm not really counting on that, but it could happen...

[dnc]

I just saw this thread back on top and reread much of it. I happen to have the Study of Shoe-Pedal Interface in Bicycle Riding from the biomechanics lab at Penn State in 1978, all 270 pages of it. It was given to me by John Allis (it was left on his desk when he worked for Raleigh) in the late 80's when Computrainer came out with Spin Scan and everybody thought they could be so much faster by smoothing out a circle on the screen. It was his way of saying that there are always going to be idiots who focus on insignificant data points and never take a step back and look at the big picture.

You don't try to smooth out the pedalling circle with each leg. Each leg concentrates on maximal power application over only 180 deg of its crank circle (11-5 o'c), in that way the chainring gets 360 deg. of highly effective torque. As i see it, the idiots are those who continue to waste time and money in their search for the ideal oval shaped chainring that will compensate in some small way for the inability to apply effective torque around TDC, when all this time it has been possible to apply the same maximal torque there as what is applied around 3 o'c. How does your quads torque around TDC compare with what is applied around 3 o'c ?

[Ti Designs]

As i see it, the idiots are those who continue to waste time and money in their search for the ideal oval shaped chainring that will compensate in some small way for the inability to apply effective torque around TDC, when all this time it has been possible to apply the same maximal torque there as what is applied around 3 o'c.

I don't suppose you've actually done any testing yourself...

The PowerTap P1 pedals can show vectors (force direction + magnitude) on the original app, but somehow that data is missing on their new app. The reason is very simple, people **know** what they're doing at the pedals, if a measuring device tells them otherwise, they'll just return it.

[ripvanrando]

Ti Designs videos helped this idiot's climbing. Thank you.

[MattTuck]

Just out of curiosity, anyone have a preference on pedal powermeters? Was looking at the new Garmin Vectors and the Powertap pedals...

I don't think I'll be getting a smart trainer anytime soon, so the pedals seem the easiest to buy once and use on any bike and on the trainer and rollers, with just a little hassle swapping them over.

[bobswire]

I'm not saying that people who don't agree with my opinions or methods are idiots, I'm saying those who can't tell individual data points from the bigger picture (the forrest from the trees?) are idiots.

To argue if it's too harsh or not, we would have to define the term idiot. If you Google the term you get "a stupid person", which doesn't work in this case - intelligence has little to do with it. It's all about evaluation vs. assumption. An idiot as I'm using the term is a person who stubbornly sticks to their assumptions.

If it is harsh, it's intentional. The true idiot would stick to their assumptions and get angry at me - I'm OK with that. A small portion might question their assumptions and take a step back. I'm not really counting on that, but it could happen...

Are you saying America is not great again? :rolleyes:

[Ti Designs]

Just out of curiosity, anyone have a preference on pedal powermeters? Was looking at the new Garmin Vectors and the Powertap pedals...

I couldn't help but notice that a number of the PowerTap engineers used Garmin Vector 3 pedals.

That said, Given that the Kickr Snap goes for $600 and the Garmin Vector 3 pedals go for a few hundred $'s more, I would look at how you plan on using them before you made that purchase.