Class divides

[Joxster]

There's been a few discussions over a couple of bottles/cases of wine on class, in the working/middle/upper classes and what defines it.

I know where I sit but what does Paceline think on what makes/defines your class? Is it money or profession or upbringing? Can you move class overnight or is it generation propelled?

[weisan]

"Oh, I am sorry! Did I enter in the wrong room?' Jox pal, is this an OT by any chance? :D

[znfdl]

There's been a few discussions over a couple of bottles/cases of wine on class, in the working/middle/upper classes and what defines it.

I know where I sit but what does Paceline think on what makes/defines your class? Is it money or profession or upbringing? Can you move class overnight or is it generation propelled?


All that matters is if your are happy, if not, then you are doing something wrong.

[Black Dog]

The class system is very much more a reality in the UK. Even here in the colonies (Canada) there is not much of a class system and what there is of one is more based on income and in name only for the so called "middle class". Further divisions are based on profession as in Blue Collar (working class - manual labour or trades) and White Collar (office worker or management). In Canada class mobility is based on education and merit not heredity. Anyone can become any class moving up or down. The class system (especially hereditary class) is an outdated and repressive social construct that has mostly been eliminated here along with the notion of a divine monarchy. The queen is still our head of state, but that will change as the supporters (mostly older people) of a constitutional monarchy die off in the next few decades and we cut the ties and become a republic.

[pinkshogun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJaz_S4deTM

[Plum Hill]

I believe it's the job.

I was a union electrician. Working among the folks (officers, non-coms, civil service) at the local Air Force base, I was considered scum. Same thing among the white collars at businesses and the medical/dental professionals.
Seldom got that from the enlisted folks or the "worker bees".

Sadly, the class mentality seems to be running rampant on the local group rides.

[David Tollefson]

Having class is far more important than what class you're defined as by some prig.

[Mr. Pink]

A serious discussion about 6000 dollar wheels pretty much defines it for me.

[AngryScientist]

another benefit of cycling.

no matter how much $$ you make or how prestigious the job, all that matters out on the roads is how well your legs do the talking.

[saab2000]

People who have class are totally ignorant of class in their dealings with people and treat everyone with class. And dignity.

[Dead Man]

It's gotta be highly regional

I really don't feel like money or job matter much, over here in the PNW. It's possible we have a much more scandinavianesque attitude toward employment and material wealth than other parts of the country. Especially since most of the money in this country is over there on yonder east coast, and what money there is over here is often self-made. When you grew up in suburbia and got your startup started up in mom's garage, wiping your OWN ass from the age of 6 or so on.... a few million in the bank account doesn't put you in another mental "class" like having been born in luxury.

Through my various hobbies and sports, I am friends with people across a pretty wide economic spectrum. Some of my climbing and cycling friends are destitute poor on public assistance, some are upper-middle white collar types with few worries in life. I'm pretty solidly middle-middle class, income wise, and it's pretty much exactly where I want to be.

Makes no difference to me that the dude next to me at the race makes twice as much as me, so long as I am overtaking. :)

[DarkStar]

another benefit of cycling.

no matter how much $$ you make or how prestigious the job, all that matters out on the roads is how well your legs do the talking.
Yep.

[DarkStar]

People who have class are totally ignorant of class in their dealings with people and treat everyone with class. And dignity.
Absolutely!

[jlwdm]

The class system means nothing to me in the US.

There are opportunities everywhere with or without education. People are still coming here from all over the world to take advantage of these opportunities. Many of these opportunities require dedication and hard work. On the other hand success should not be based on income or work success - there are more important things in life.

I am never going to be hanging out with the richest people in NYC or Silicon Valley, but I do not see it as having anything to do with a class system.

Many of our limitations are self imposed.

Jeff

[paredown]

While I kind of agree with Black Dog--that the class system is more obvious in the UK (lived there for about 4 years), and that in theory it does not exist in Canada (born and bred)--I think that in Canada and the US it is there but less obvious to the observer.

In the UK everything from accent to vocabulary will give away your class origins, and it is relatively independent of income (though not of profession). Some of my friends in the UK live like paupers, but are the "right sort" by accent and breeding.

In the US and Canada, class is more subtle--but for sure there are groups who have the advantage of money and connections, so that their way is paved for them. Yes, it is meritocratic to a degree, but take the example of the prevalence of Upper Canada College (private school on the Brit model of a 'public' school) graduates in Canadian politics for example. Here's a wiki quote:
The school has produced six lieutenant governors, four premiers, seven chief justices, and four Mayors of Toronto. At least 17 graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, 25 have been named Rhodes Scholars,[162] five have been named Loran Scholars,[3][159][163] 10 are Olympic medallists, and at least 13 have been accepted as fellows of the Royal Society of Canada. No less than 41 have been inducted into the Order of Canada since the honour's inception in 1967 and 11 into the Order of Ontario.

In the US, the well-to-do middle classes are able to afford tutoring etc, and on average the kids who are getting into the Ivies are not the sons and daughters of the local carpenters and teachers. Feeder schools like Phillips and Exeter serve the same role in the US as UCC in Canada (as do the analog schools like Harrow and Eaton in the UK). Here's one person's view (and I know that there are recent numbers to point to the lack of economic diversity in your typical Ivy class):
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/why-ivy-league-schools-are-so-bad-at-economic-diversity/284076/
elite universities should not be asking, “Why do we have so few low-income students?” but “How do we have so many wealthy ones?” There is no relationship between being intelligent and inheriting wealth. Therefore, the only logical explanation for the disproportionate abundance of wealthy people in elite colleges and universities is that these private institutions consistently overvalue the performance and qualifications of youth from higher income brackets.
And the payoff for the Ivies is good salaries and lots of connections, and lifetime earnings that on average will outstrip your average State school grad, let alone the kid that goes to the local community college for an associates degree:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/09/14/ivy_leaguers_in_their_20s_they_make_even_more_mone y_than_you_thought.html

And the payoff is there for a host of professional careers that don't involve large salaries--think about who staffs museums, works as architects, teaches university etc--it tends to be Ivy graduates. You would be hard pressed to find a non-Ivy law school grad clerking for a Supreme Court justice, or teaching law at any American university...

What makes the language of class so difficult in the US, is that everyone thinks they are "middle class" (which can't be true), and people think of "working class" as belonging to some Victorian era world of industrial mills and manual labor. I had a student in a class say confidently "There is no working class in the US" based on this sort of view. We also have less agreement about what constitutes an "upper class""--something the Brits still seem to (mostly) agree on, but in my experience there are those that have more, control more, and can get there kids into elite institutions, even if they have to become major donors to do so. While the "class" that is being created is less homogeneous (and more money/wealth based) than in Britain, the young customers that used to pay $2.8 million cash for the houses that I worked on in Rye surely belong to it.

And I don't. But it is not just about income, but about opportunity--and especially opportunity denied to the kids from modest backgrounds.

And as for movement, the English had a saying, 'it takes three generations to make a gentleman'--and now that I am older, it really resonates. If I had raised children, the world that I could have opened their eyes to would have been a much, much broader one that what my parents could show me, just as they were able to show me a world that was a much richer than that of my immigrant grandparents.

[fuzzalow]

no matter how much $$ you make or how prestigious the job, all that matters out on the roads is how well your legs do the talking.

I'll respectfully part ways with you on this one. All that matters is how you view yourself and how you subsequently treat others. Sounds boring, huh? Maybe 'cos it is! But it takes a lot outta you sometimes to make good on your own expectations and standards you set for yourself.

Which I guess, in a roundabout way, gets to the issue of class. Meaning not socio-economic or ethnic class divides but issues surrounding personal character. In the end, people turn out to be just the people they desired themselves to be.

The legs part won't tell you anything. I've postulated that there is an inverse relationship between FTP and W-2. I know I'm not wrong.

[rando]

Class - \ˈklas\

A term bandied in seedy houses of ill repute referencing the flimsy veneer of decency habitues are required to exhibit while lousy with vice.




Or at least that is what it seems like based on the heavily trafficked type of material exhibited in classifieds ads here. Shame on you, bike smut peddlers!

http://i.imgur.com/hKPojmi.gif

[Louis]

Where you fit into the grand scheme of things can be easily determined based on whether or not this is your ideal living situation:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/96/02/19/960219a0f1668381bda2704a4b124359.jpg

[dustyrider]

Where you fit into the grand scheme of things can be easily determined based on whether or not this is your ideal living situation:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/96/02/19/960219a0f1668381bda2704a4b124359.jpg

Nothing to add to the thread other than this photo reminds me of Ready Player One. Pretty fun read!

[CampyorBust]

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/14900000/-Ironic-alanis-morissette-14973509-720-480.jpg

[weisan]

There will always be class distinctions among a group of people. Even if you take away everything; their passports, their wealth, their clothes and throw them on an island...they will still be able to distinguish themselves just by the number of coconuts one managed to gather and use that to establish a pecking order.... :D

https://blog.lucybee.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Monkey-collecting-Coconuts.jpg

[dustyrider]

There will always be class distinctions among a group of people. Even if you take away everything; their passports, their wealth, their clothes and throw them on an island...they will still be able to distinguish themselves just by the number of coconuts one managed to gather and use that to establish a pecking order.... :D

https://blog.lucybee.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Monkey-collecting-Coconuts.jpg

Now I have something to contribute!
The fisherman and the businessman.
LINK (http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-businessman/)

[ripvanrando]

We have achieved equality in the USA; we've found the lowest common denominator. Some are more equal than others.

Lots of money (actual wealth), a good education, and powerful social connections tend to be correlated with class. A cellar full of claret back to 1921 might not be bad either. Although power is obviously a commodity, true class can't be bought. To some extent we are a meritocracy in the USA but take the game of golf. How many middle class golfers have access to Winged Foot, Shinnicock, Pine Valley, Olympic, Augusta, Cypress, etc. If they have won the US Open or US Amateur? Maybe. Someone with the social contacts would have little problems getting onto such courses.

The only ones who care about class stratification exercises are University academics who think they are underpaid. The rest of us are all just middle class.

[shovelhd]

I belong to the no class.

[Black Dog]

Well said.

While I kind of agree with Black Dog--that the class system is more obvious in the UK (lived there for about 4 years), and that in theory it does not exist in Canada (born and bred)--I think that in Canada and the US it is there but less obvious to the observer.

In the UK everything from accent to vocabulary will give away your class origins, and it is relatively independent of income (though not of profession). Some of my friends in the UK live like paupers, but are the "right sort" by accent and breeding.

In the US and Canada, class is more subtle--but for sure there are groups who have the advantage of money and connections, so that their way is paved for them. Yes, it is meritocratic to a degree, but take the example of the prevalence of Upper Canada College (private school on the Brit model of a 'public' school) graduates in Canadian politics for example. Here's a wiki quote:


In the US, the well-to-do middle classes are able to afford tutoring etc, and on average the kids who are getting into the Ivies are not the sons and daughters of the local carpenters and teachers. Feeder schools like Phillips and Exeter serve the same role in the US as UCC in Canada (as do the analog schools like Harrow and Eaton in the UK). Here's one person's view (and I know that there are recent numbers to point to the lack of economic diversity in your typical Ivy class):
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/why-ivy-league-schools-are-so-bad-at-economic-diversity/284076/

And the payoff for the Ivies is good salaries and lots of connections, and lifetime earnings that on average will outstrip your average State school grad, let alone the kid that goes to the local community college for an associates degree:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/09/14/ivy_leaguers_in_their_20s_they_make_even_more_mone y_than_you_thought.html

And the payoff is there for a host of professional careers that don't involve large salaries--think about who staffs museums, works as architects, teaches university etc--it tends to be Ivy graduates. You would be hard pressed to find a non-Ivy law school grad clerking for a Supreme Court justice, or teaching law at any American university...

What makes the language of class so difficult in the US, is that everyone thinks they are "middle class" (which can't be true), and people think of "working class" as belonging to some Victorian era world of industrial mills and manual labor. I had a student in a class say confidently "There is no working class in the US" based on this sort of view. We also have less agreement about what constitutes an "upper class""--something the Brits still seem to (mostly) agree on, but in my experience there are those that have more, control more, and can get there kids into elite institutions, even if they have to become major donors to do so. While the "class" that is being created is less homogeneous (and more money/wealth based) than in Britain, the young customers that used to pay $2.8 million cash for the houses that I worked on in Rye surely belong to it.

And I don't. But it is not just about income, but about opportunity--and especially opportunity denied to the kids from modest backgrounds.

And as for movement, the English had a saying, 'it takes three generations to make a gentleman'--and now that I am older, it really resonates. If I had raised children, the world that I could have opened their eyes to would have been a much, much broader one that what my parents could show me, just as they were able to show me a world that was a much richer than that of my immigrant grandparents.

[jlwdm]

...




And the payoff for the Ivies is good salaries and lots of connections, and lifetime earnings that on average will outstrip your average State school grad, let alone the kid that goes to the local community college for an associates degree:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/09/14/ivy_leaguers_in_their_20s_they_make_even_more_mone y_than_you_thought.html

And the payoff is there for a host of professional careers that don't involve large salaries--think about who staffs museums, works as architects, teaches university etc--it tends to be Ivy graduates. You would be hard pressed to find a non-Ivy law school grad clerking for a Supreme Court justice, or teaching law at any American university...


....

I grew up on the west coast and gradually moved farther east (not east of Texas though) and an Ivy degree has not meant much anywhere I have been. Seems to be more of a big deal in the northeast.

Law schools are also full of non-Ivy teachers.

Jeff

[Kirk007]

I grew up on the west coast and gradually moved farther east (not east of Texas though) and an Ivy degree has not meant much anywhere I have been. Seems to be more of a big deal in the northeast.

Law schools are also full of non-Ivy teachers.

Jeff

Agreed; Ivy school degree on the West coast is still Ivy degree, but just as many smart kids from lots of other schools and the old boys network isn't as tight out here. And I was one of those non-Ivy law school teachers....

[Peter P.]

another benefit of cycling.

no matter how much $$ you make or how prestigious the job, all that matters out on the roads is how well your legs do the talking.

Seriously; this has more truth in it than you think.

Nothing upsets the apple cart more than some working class say, union electrican (see post above) crushing the dentists, doctors, and officers, on a group ride. Usually makes the latter go out and buy more expensive equipment.

[verbs4us]

A dated book but hilarious and true:
Paul Fussel's book:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Class.html?id=aPbF1kuayJYC

[fuzzalow]

I know where I sit but what does Paceline think on what makes/defines your class? Is it money or profession or upbringing? Can you move class overnight or is it generation propelled?

What makes/defines your class? As you listed: all of the above. Is there mobility? In limited degrees there is although that mobility is shrinking and might soon be closed off IMO for a myriad of reasons e.g. with globalization being only a very small part of the problem.

There is no way to even scratch the surface of this topic in a chat room/forum context.

A dated book but hilarious and true:
Paul Fussel's book:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Class.html?id=aPbF1kuayJYC

Never read it, was it intended as humour?

A few books I've read that, if not directly about class, certainly address it directly and indirectly as a subtext for the respective book:

Primates of Park Avenue: A Memoir (https://www.amazon.com/Primates-Avenue-Wednesday-Martin-Ph-D/dp/1476762627): Ludicrous to the depths of what vacuous, bored, moneyed people will do to occupy their efforts in attainment and maintenance of social status & stature.

Between the World and Me (https://www.amazon.com/Between-World-Me-Ta-Nehisi-Coates/dp/0812993543/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473348439&sr=1-1&keywords=ta-nehisi+coates+between+the+world+and+me): Unrelenting and harsh as to the conveyance of futility and hopelessness within the ethos of race in America. As Chris Rock has joked "There isn't a single white man out there that would trade places with me...And I'm *RICH*!"

White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America (https://www.amazon.com/White-Trash-400-Year-History-America/dp/0670785970/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473348843&sr=1-1&keywords=white+trash+the+400-year+untold+history+of+class+in+america): The bleak and dreary reality of the lower classes studied and exposed. A group IMO not much different culturally & economically than the world written about in Between the World and Me except by their elevation and maintenance of status above the lowest tier by the use of racism.

[AngryScientist]

I'll respectfully part ways with you on this one....

The legs part won't tell you anything. I've postulated that there is an inverse relationship between FTP and W-2. I know I'm not wrong.

i think we actually agree. no the legs wont tell you anything about "class" - my assertion was that when you're on the bike, in a competitive situation, FTP matters, W-2 does not. :beer:

[soulspinner]

people who have class are totally ignorant of class in their dealings with people and treat everyone with class. And dignity.

+1000

[fuzzalow]

i think we actually agree. no the legs wont tell you anything about "class" - my assertion was that when you're on the bike, in a competitive situation, FTP matters, W-2 does not. :beer:

OK. No worries.

I might have been over sensitive on the wording. As I would not see cycling through the prism of turning every chance encounter with someone on a bike as a race or a chance to have my legs do the talking. Of course if we are both wearing pinned numbers then that's another thing entirely.

Yesterday I passed some guy on a CitiBike while riding the Brompton and he caught up at a light and wanted to race! Holy crap! Up Third Avenue! Was is it that gets into people's heads that everything on a bike is a showdown of macho studliness? I just wanna get home in one piece!

[CampyorBust]

FTP matters

I must not get it, what does file transfer protocol have to do with class? And I though TPS reports really mattered.

[JStonebarger]

As far as I can tell class is determined by your relationship to the means of production, and has been for a long time. Is that some how less true in the USA? Not at all.

Who has become richer over the last few decades? Who has become poorer? When the richest 1% in the country control 40% of the wealth how can anyone claim class doesn't matter in the USA?

[Fishbike]

We in the US grew up believing that anyone can "Go west young man," move up, become President, yada yada, with hard work. The Horatio Alder story has been imbedded in our culture. But the statistics show that if you are born poor, you are likely to remain poor. If you are born into a household with economic challenges, food insecurity, substance abuse, mental health issues, no books at home, poor parenting, inferior schools, etc. -- the odds of achieving a higher "class" are not good. We are very stratified and becoming more so.

[Joxster]

My opinion is money cannot buy you class, it is your upbringing that defines your class. If I was to win £50mil on the lottery I am not instantly upper class but I have the financial ability to change my children's class by sending them to the right schools and how to act and behave in social circles.

[guido]

I skipped class to go ride...

[doomridesout]

Class is real-- I feel it every day as a heavily tattooed person in a hierarchical and stratified professional school. The irony is, I'm an upper middle class white kid like them, but with a different upbringing. I feel for people who are truly locked in by their income bracket and lack of cultural capital.

[54ny77]

that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

People who have class are totally ignorant of class in their dealings with people and treat everyone with class. And dignity.

[estilley]

Walked around Aspen for an hour yesterday.

There's some kind of class there.

[CampyorBust]

Walked around Aspen for an hour yesterday.

There's some kind of class there.

http://i.giphy.com/PEKztVNo5AMyk.gif

They must all work out...

https://youtu.be/plIsl41URyY :D

[dustyrider]

Walked around Aspen for an hour yesterday.

There's some kind of class there.

Yeah the people that "live" there and the people that work there.