Cantilevers vs. Center Pulls?

[Nags&Ducs]

I'm in the process of buying a rando/audax frame and I thought I was set on CP brakes. I was planning on installing braze-on posts for either Paul Racers or maye Dia Compe Gran Compe 610 or Mafacs (I know the Pauls have a unique width and height compared to other CPs, so I'm probably going to go with DCs or old Mafacs.)

Anyhow, the frame I'm looking at comes with cantilever posts, and I would have to ask the builder to move them to accommodate CP posts. That got me to thinking if I should just go with cantis over my original plans of CPs.

I'm hoping some of you with experience with cantis vs CPs can weigh in with your thoughts. I know the quality of cantis can vary greatly- I'd get one of the better ones.

TIA!

[eBAUMANN]

if you have canti posts and your desired wheel/tire/fender combo can be accommodated by paul mini motos, get them.

that said, there is a reason why frames are built for ONLY paul brakes...because they are the best rim brakes currently on the market, across the board...mini motos and racers run this town.

[CMiller]

I reaalllly like minimotos and nearly every mini v-brake I've ever tried. The only issue is tire clearance like mentioned. It'll be a no-go for 42's + fenders.

Personally I highly avoid cantilevers, unless maybe run with mountain style levers (good leverage), and would pay [any] extra to get the Paul Racers used if it's a fat tire + fender kind of rig.

[Nags&Ducs]

if you have canti posts and your desired wheel/tire/fender combo can be accommodated by paul mini motos, get them.

that said, there is a reason why frames are built for ONLY paul brakes...because they are the best rim brakes currently on the market, across the board...mini motos and racers run this town.

So between the two, Racers or Mini-Motos, is one better than the other? Should I keep the standard canti posts over the Racer's post placement? It seems to me that if the performance is equal, it's better to go with the standard canti posts.

Thanks mann! ;)

[sparky33]

canti v centerpull v miniv
...they all have merits and flaws.

if you are planning on using a front rack, you'll have to figure out if the brakes fit well with the rack.

[Nags&Ducs]

I reaalllly like minimotos and nearly every mini v-brake I've ever tried. The only issue is tire clearance like mentioned. It'll be a no-go for 42's + fenders.

Personally I highly avoid cantilevers, unless maybe run with mountain style levers (good leverage), and would pay [any] extra to get the Paul Racers used if it's a fat tire + fender kind of rig.

I don't plan on really wide tires. I want the ability to run 32mm tires with fenders, but I'll likley run 28s with fenders the majority of the time. This shouldn't be a problem with any of the brakes in question, should it?

Thanks!

[CMiller]

You'll be fine either way. I'd go with cantilever posts and run minimotos for that build if you like grabby offroad worthy brakes, or brazed on paul racer mediums for more modulation.

[eBAUMANN]

I don't plan on really wide tires. I want the ability to run 32mm tires with fenders, but I'll likley run 28s with fenders the majority of the time. This shouldn't be a problem with any of the brakes in question, should it?

Thanks!

youll be fine with mini motos and you wont need to modify the frame at all. if you hate em, then start to think about modifications for racers. the biggest difference is the hangers required for racers and the added modulation they offer as a result of a less-direct actuation mechanism.

[icepick_trotsky]

Get the mini motos. Never look back.

[bicycletricycle]

paul racers, both the regular and medium reach, are excellent brakes. If the frame already has canti posts, just go with canti brakes or minimotos. minimotos stop great and dont require nice stops on the frame and steerer tube, they also reduce front fork judder.

[redir]

Are not Cantilever and Center Pull the same thing? :confused:

[ColonelJLloyd]

https://media.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif

[sandyrs]

Are not Cantilever and Center Pull the same thing? :confused:

no...

Centerpull

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Brakes_MAFAC_RAID.jpg

Cantilever

https://bertinclassiccycles.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/se-tandem-13.jpg

[El Chaba]

I like Mafac centerpulls. They work exceptionally well with Ergopower/other modern levers. The brake pads should be changed with fresh new ones from Koolstop. Since both compass and Grand Bois have introduced brakes that are essentially copies of old Mafac designs, all of the small hardware bits are also available should they be needed. While purely a matter of taste, I also think that Mafacs are the most attractive option when the job at hand is to clear a larger tire and fenders...

[redir]

Oh right ok I see.

[palincss]

Are not Cantilever and Center Pull the same thing? :confused:

No. This is a centerpull:
https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Compass_brake_rear_bike_800.jpg

and this is a cantilever:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/cantilevers/images/cantilevers-xt2-08.jpg

[redir]

Yeah I get it but I do love all the sexy bike pics so keep them coming :)

I remember having center pull (now that you mention it) on a few bikes in the old days and they were more or less worthless. The cantis that I still have on my 1983-ish touring bike today are still quite effective.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=palincss;2041290]No. This is a centerpull:


Another couple of center pulls...:D:D

[ColonelJLloyd]

I remember having center pull (now that you mention it) on a few bikes in the old days and they were more or less worthless.

No offense, but if that was your experience you were definitely doing something wrong. Even the lowly Dia Compe/Weinmann and MAFAC Racer are excellent brakes when setup correctly.

[redir]

No offense, but if that was your experience you were definitely doing something wrong. Even the lowly Dia Compe/Weinmann and MAFAC Racer are excellent brakes when setup correctly.

Ooops I'm dyslexic... I meant the canti's. On my old mountain bikes you may as well not have even had a rear brake because it didn't hardly do anything and the front kinda worked. It certainly could be that they were set up wrong too I don't know? But I always set them up by the book.

[Mark McM]

No. This is a centerpull:
https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Compass_brake_rear_bike_800.jpg

and this is a cantilever:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/cantilevers/images/cantilevers-xt2-08.jpg



Technically, they are both cantilever brakes. A "cantilever brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#cantilever) uses a pair of separate brake arms, each mounted to either side of the frame. A "centerpull brake" is a caliper brake, where the caliper is complete assembly that is bolted to the frame as a unit.

The first photo is actually a "U brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_u-v.html#ubrake). The second photos is a "traditional" or "high profile" cantilever brake.


This is a centerpull brake:

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/mafaccomp1.jpg

[Mark McM]

Another couple of center pulls...:D:D


Those aren't centerpulls - at least not in the traditional meaning of the word (see: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#center-pull).

The first brake is a "pantograph" or "4 bar linkage" brake (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_da-o.html#delta). The second is a "roller cam" brake (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ri-z.html#rollercam).

[bfd]

Technically, they are both cantilever brakes. A "cantilever brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#cantilever) uses a pair of separate brake arms, each mounted to either side of the frame. A "centerpull brake" is a caliper brake, where the caliper is complete assembly that is bolted to the frame as a unit.

The first photo is actually a "U brake" (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_u-v.html#ubrake). The second photos is a "traditional" or "high profile" cantilever brake.


This is a centerpull brake:

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/mafaccomp1.jpg

I don't see the difference between the Mafac brake drawing you showed and the Compass "centerpull" brake which looks to be a modern version of the Mafac:

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/comp_brake_3.jpg

http://www.chapmancycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/DSC2013.jpg

Even the brake pads have the same shape! Good Luck!

[ColonelJLloyd]

I don't see the difference between the Mafac brake drawing you showed and the Compass "centerpull" brake which looks to be a modern version of the Mafac:

Even the brake pads have the same shape! Good Luck!

Maybe you should do a Google search. You'll find that's exactly the point. The only improvement they made is pretty much the only improvement there was to make; these (https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/angled-brake-washer-pair/). I ordered a set for my MAFAC Competitions this week.

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/27783933281_f33400bb0d_b.jpg

[bfd]

Maybe you should do a Google search. You'll find that's exactly the point. The only improvement they made is pretty much the only improvement there was to make; these (https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/angled-brake-washer-pair/). I ordered a set for my MAFAC Competitions this week.

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/27783933281_f33400bb0d_b.jpg

What? You didn't get the brass washers:

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/BrakCmWsThrust_1187.jpg

Or brass bushings:

https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/BrakCmBushing_1239.jpg

$24 for the bushings and $18 for the washers....HaHaHa! Good Luck!

[Mark McM]

I don't see the difference between the Mafac brake drawing you showed and the Compass "centerpull" brake which looks to be a modern version of the Mafac:

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/comp_brake_3.jpg

http://www.chapmancycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/DSC2013.jpg

Even the brake pads have the same shape! Good Luck!


True, there are strong similarities between Compass and the Mafac. The difference is that the Compass arms bolt directly to the frame (via studs brazed or welded to the frame). In contrast, the Mafac arms are bolted to a separate yoke. While this may seem minor, there are important differences in operation: The performance of the Compass brake becomes dependent on the frame, including the pivot locations and the flex of the frame at the studs, and the frame must be especially made to accept these brakes; On the Mafac, the performance is not dependent geometry/flex of the frame, and the brake may be used on a frame with a standard center bolt mount.. A bike that uses the Mafac brake can also use single pivot sidepull calipers, dual pivot sidepull calipers, roller cam brakes, and a variety of other brakes. A bike that uses the Compass brakes can really only work with these specific brakes, or other brakes with the same dimensions and design.

Here is a picture of the back of a center pull brake, showing the yoke and the center mounting bolt:

http://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/p1010012_copy23_blowup.jpg

In addition to being installed mounted differently, there differences in brake adjustment as well. Like other cantilever brakes, the Compass brakes are centered by adjusting the individual spring tensions on either arm. In contrast, centerpull brakes are centered like other caliper brakes, by rotating the entire caliper assembly on the center bolt.

These difference is why brakes like the Compass brakes have been given an entirely different naming designation - they are called "U brakes".

[ColonelJLloyd]

In addition to being installed mounted differently....

To be fair, MAFACs have always been able to be mounted directly and were done so by Herse and Singer among others for decades. This is a function of frame design much more than caliper design. Yes, it is certainly advantageous but does not fundamentally change the way the caliper operates.

[Mark McM]

To be fair, MAFACs have always been able to be mounted directly and were done so by Herse and Singer among others for decades. This is a function of frame design much more than caliper design. Yes, it is certainly advantageous but does not fundamentally change the way the caliper operates.

As I said, they are similar, but not identical, and so they should be referred to by a different name. Which why the rest of the bicycle industry calls them "U brakes". Dia-Comple calls them U brakes:

http://www.planetbmx.com/shop/images/cache/DC990pic.600.gif


Tektro calls them U brakes:

http://americancycle.com/merchant/1384/images/large/brakes_tektro905u.jpg

Odyssey calls them U brakes:

http://americancycle.com/merchant/1384/images/zoom/odyssey_brakes_evo2_black.jpg



Other manufacturers such as Evoke, Black Ops, Mission, etc. all call them U brakes. Why do you insist on mis-identifying them?

[ColonelJLloyd]

Why do you insist on mis-identifying them?

Why do you insist on being deliberately obtuse and pedantic? MAFAC centerpulls can be mounted direct or on a yoke; that's always been the case. You can call the direct mount version a U-brake if you want and you wouldn't be wrong. But neither Dia-Compe*, Paul nor Compass refers to a direct mounted centerpull as a U-brake.

Which why the rest of the bicycle industry calls them "U brakes".

Except so many manufacturers do not as referenced above.

My point wasn't even that. It was that the differences you point out between MAFAC and the Compass brake don't apply when the MAFAC is mounted direct, which has always been an option. It is not a fundamental difference in function.

*the brake you posted a photo of that was used on BMX and some MTBs is what they referred to as a U-brake. Their 610s that were direct mounted to some Centurion and Lotus frames were never to my knowledge referred to as U-brakes. But I don't think it matters to anyone within this thread but you.

[bfd]

True, there are strong similarities between Compass and the Mafac. The difference is that the Compass arms bolt directly to the frame (via studs brazed or welded to the frame). In contrast, the Mafac arms are bolted to a separate yoke. While this may seem minor, there are important differences in operation: The performance of the Compass brake becomes dependent on the frame, including the pivot locations and the flex of the frame at the studs, and the frame must be especially made to accept these brakes; On the Mafac, the performance is not dependent geometry/flex of the frame, and the brake may be used on a frame with a standard center bolt mount.. A bike that uses the Mafac brake can also use single pivot sidepull calipers, dual pivot sidepull calipers, roller cam brakes, and a variety of other brakes. A bike that uses the Compass brakes can really only work with these specific brakes, or other brakes with the same dimensions and design.

Here is a picture of the back of a center pull brake, showing the yoke and the center mounting bolt:

http://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/p1010012_copy23_blowup.jpg

In addition to being installed mounted differently, there differences in brake adjustment as well. Like other cantilever brakes, the Compass brakes are centered by adjusting the individual spring tensions on either arm. In contrast, centerpull brakes are centered like other caliper brakes, by rotating the entire caliper assembly on the center bolt.

These difference is why brakes like the Compass brakes have been given an entirely different naming designation - they are called "U brakes".

Thanks! Interestingly, Dia-Compe calls its 610 brake a "centerpull" and it doesn't appear to attached to the frame. Here's the Velo Orange 610:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_C1XrRVl3W8k/TE2866DlOvI/AAAAAAAAKek/tIE3W5ufUzc/s1600/dia+compe+610-2.JPG

Here's the original from 1976:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/dc610pr.jpg

Another version:

http://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/dw_blowup.jpg

Paul's centerpull bakes gives you an option for attachment - braze on, center mount recessed and center mount non-recessed:

https://paulcomp.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/racer_gallery_4.jpg

Centerpull, U-brake, they all stop well. It's good to have options.

Personally, I'm having a new frame being build and I've decided to go with Paul mini-vs brakes. Gives me lots of room for fattish tires (up to 35mm without fenders), which I know isn't fat compared to many of you all who use 50mm+ tires, but it works for me.

Good Luck!

[palincss]

True, there are strong similarities between Compass and the Mafac. The difference is that the Compass arms bolt directly to the frame (via studs brazed or welded to the frame). In contrast, the Mafac arms are bolted to a separate yoke. While this may seem minor, there are important differences in operation: The performance of the Compass brake becomes dependent on the frame, including the pivot locations and the flex of the frame at the studs, and the frame must be especially made to accept these brakes; On the Mafac, the performance is not dependent geometry/flex of the frame, and the brake may be used on a frame with a standard center bolt mount.. A bike that uses the Mafac brake can also use single pivot sidepull calipers, dual pivot sidepull calipers, roller cam brakes, and a variety of other brakes. A bike that uses the Compass brakes can really only work with these specific brakes, or other brakes with the same dimensions and design.

Here is a picture of the back of a center pull brake, showing the yoke and the center mounting bolt:

http://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/p1010012_copy23_blowup.jpg

In addition to being installed mounted differently, there differences in brake adjustment as well. Like other cantilever brakes, the Compass brakes are centered by adjusting the individual spring tensions on either arm. In contrast, centerpull brakes are centered like other caliper brakes, by rotating the entire caliper assembly on the center bolt.

These difference is why brakes like the Compass brakes have been given an entirely different naming designation - they are called "U brakes".

Perhaps you are not aware, but the brakes themselves are identical. The only difference is whether the mounting posts are brazed on -- as many of the French constructeurs did with Mafac Raids and Racers -- or whether they're mounted on a yoke. You can, if you like, mount the Compass version of the Raid on a yoke and bolt it on a frame provided you can find a framebuilder with a supply of yokes left over from the Mafac Raids he mounted to brazed on posts. I'd like to know who gave the Compass brakes "an entirely different naming designation" -- Compass Cycle's web page on the brakes calls them centerpulls.

Compass Centerpull Brakes

$170.00–$175.00

Excellent stopping power means you can brake harder, under all conditions. Superior modulation allows you to brake deep into turns and on slippery surfaces without the risk of locking up a wheel. Superlight weight is an added benefit. All this makes Compass centerpull brakes are the best brakes for bikes with wide tires.

Now sold individually, to give you a maximum of flexibility when spec’ing your bike.

Each brake come with all required hardware, a straddle cable roller, and Kool-Stop salmon-colored brake pads.
Includes one set of standard and one set of angled washers to set toe-in.
Please indicate below if you want standard brake bolts, or rack-mounting bolts.

[Mark McM]

Why do you insist on being deliberately obtuse and pedantic? MAFAC centerpulls can be mounted direct or on a yoke; that's always been the case. You can call the direct mount version a U-brake if you want and you wouldn't be wrong. But neither Dia-Compe*, Paul nor Compass refers to a direct mounted centerpull as a U-brake.

Because precision in terminology matters. If you can't succinctly and accurately describe things, you leave your self open to errors, inefficiencies or incompatibilities. Didn't we just have a long thread about the problem created when "center-to-top" meant different things?

But if you want to be loosey-goosey about your terminology, how about the two examples below: Both use a fork mounted hydraulic caliper that squeezes the parallel surfaces of a wheel mounted disc between two brake pads. They both operate the same way, so should both be called "hydro disc brakes"?


http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/cycle_bicycle_brake_disk_formula_one_VR_calliper_h ydraulic_cable.jpg

http://i.stack.imgur.com/7NeHl.jpg


Now, I'm sure that you'll argue that these examples are different because one uses a separate disc for the braking surface, and one integrates the braking surface into the rim. But how is that different from mounting the arms on a separate yoke, or mounting the arms directly to the frame? It still functions the same, so it should be called the same thing, right?

[Mark McM]

Perhaps you are not aware, but the brakes themselves are identical. The only difference is whether the mounting posts are brazed on -- as many of the French constructeurs did with Mafac Raids and Racers -- or whether they're mounted on a yoke..

This is incorrect - the arms are identical, but other important parts are not. Specifically, the center pull caliper yoke has no provision for spring tension adjustment. If you mounted the arms to brazed on frame studs with the same hardware as they mounted to the yoke, you would have no way to adjust the brake centering.

Some are arguing that this is just pedantics, but answer me this: Say you had a frame with U brake studs. Say I had a set of Mafac centerpull brakes on which I removed the yoke and sold you just the arms and the rest of the hardware, and told you "don't worry, they'll work fine, Mafac brakes arms are used on frame mounted studs all the time." Say that the you bolted the brakes arms on, and found that they were off-center, and that with the hardware supplied with the arms there was no way to center them. Would you be upset with me for misleading you about whether they would work on your frame?

[ColonelJLloyd]

But if you want to be loosey-goosey about your terminology...

Give it a rest, Mark. No one has been confused as to what type of brake a centerpull or braze-on centerpull or direct-mount centerpull is. So Paul Components and Compass are just "wrong". Fine. But everyone seems to be ok with the terminology and understands fully about what they are ordering from said companies.

Some are arguing that this is just pedantics, but answer me this: Say you had a frame with U brake studs. Say I had a set of Mafac centerpull brakes on which I removed the yoke and sold you just the arms and the rest of the hardware, and told you "don't worry, they'll work fine, Mafac brakes arms are used on frame mounted studs all the time." Say that the you bolted the brakes arms on, and found that they were off-center, and that with the hardware supplied with the arms there was no way to center them. Would you be upset with me for misleading you about whether they would work on your frame?

No one has said that there is a universal centerpull direct mount braze-on. Each caliper has it's own braze-on and mounting specs. In your example above you as the seller would just be dishonest and the buyer guilty of ignorance. Happens everyday.

As my grandma would say, "you'd argue with a fence post".

[559Rando]

Anyhow, the frame I'm looking at comes with cantilever posts, and I would have to ask the builder to move them to accommodate CP posts. That got me to thinking if I should just go with cantis over my original plans of CPs.

IME, CPs or wide profile cantis can perform equally well...just use good cables, housing and pads, but CPs were easier for me to set up.

3 pages of this thread and no one asked: What frame are you looking at it? :D

[El Chaba]

I don't recall ever seeing the term "u-brake" used prior to the introduction of mountain bikes....Meanwhile, centerpull brakes had been brazed onto frames for years by that time....and the special term used for them was "brazed-on centerpulls".....and they didn't become U-brakes upon the invention of that term....

[Nags&Ducs]

I like Mafac centerpulls. They work exceptionally well with Ergopower/other modern levers. The brake pads should be changed with fresh new ones from Koolstop. Since both compass and Grand Bois have introduced brakes that are essentially copies of old Mafac designs, all of the small hardware bits are also available should they be needed. While purely a matter of taste, I also think that Mafacs are the most attractive option when the job at hand is to clear a larger tire and fenders...

I noticed a big difference in feel between the Mafacs and Weinmann and Dia Comps. The Mafacs had the best return action of the three. Thanks for that info on the good compatibility with Ergos since that is what I plan on using- either a Daytona 10, Centaur 10, or Veloce triple alloy set.

IME, CPs or wide profile cantis can perform equally well...just use good cables, housing and pads, but CPs were easier for me to set up.

3 pages of this thread and no one asked: What frame are you looking at it? :D

This particular frame that prompted this question between CPs or CLs is a Bob Jackson World Tour, which has canti posts. I'm also considering their Audax End to End frame which I would pay the up charge for the CP braze-on posts.

[oldpotatoe]

As I said, they are similar, but not identical, and so they should be referred to by a different name. Which why the rest of the bicycle industry calls them "U brakes". Dia-Comple calls them U brakes:


Other manufacturers such as Evoke, Black Ops, Mission, etc. all call them U brakes. Why do you insist on mis-identifying them?

You forgot these..the best ever..ubrakedirectmountcenterpulltype brake

[Nags&Ducs]

Where can you get those? Were they any good? They look a bit austere. Universal has campy's TT brakes which are center pulls. I'd be interested in sticking with all campy.

[oldpotatoe]

Where can you get those? Were they any good? They look a bit austere. Universal has campy's TT brakes which are center pulls. I'd be interested in sticking with all campy.

Get in your way back machine to about 1985/6..to buy these..:eek:

[Aaron O]

[QUOTE=palincss;2041290]No. This is a centerpull:


Another couple of center pulls...:D:D

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Merckx/null_zps61a02e85.jpg (http://s936.photobucket.com/user/aolk67/media/Merckx/null_zps61a02e85.jpg.html)

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/lotus%20aero%20pro/B17F2F04-8DA6-4860-9C6B-98482771FA96_zpsnrs7rwjz.jpg (http://s936.photobucket.com/user/aolk67/media/lotus%20aero%20pro/B17F2F04-8DA6-4860-9C6B-98482771FA96_zpsnrs7rwjz.jpg.html)

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Galmozzi%20Pinarello/2CE69E2F-CA01-40BD-93A9-F8D123BA0913_zpsqdtmmg3u.jpg (http://s936.photobucket.com/user/aolk67/media/Galmozzi%20Pinarello/2CE69E2F-CA01-40BD-93A9-F8D123BA0913_zpsqdtmmg3u.jpg.html)

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Galmozzi/6CC6740F-908F-40B0-BECE-4E1B3F160F9A_zpsaek72pfd.jpg (http://s936.photobucket.com/user/aolk67/media/Galmozzi/6CC6740F-908F-40B0-BECE-4E1B3F160F9A_zpsaek72pfd.jpg.html)

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/4248602B-E162-4FFC-921C-5461728CE587_zps7ov8i7lg.jpg (http://s936.photobucket.com/user/aolk67/media/4248602B-E162-4FFC-921C-5461728CE587_zps7ov8i7lg.jpg.html)

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/photo-92.jpg (http://s936.photobucket.com/user/aolk67/media/photo-92.jpg.html)

[belopsky]

Im going to bump this a bit..

I am currently running some MAFAC brakes I've rebuilt completely, and while I like them, I also have the opportunity to get some Paul Racer M in the polished.

Would the Paul's be better? They aren't cheap and perhaps won't fit 'in' w my other components, being vintage Suntour Superbe and new SUZUE freewheel hub, MAFAC brake levers... but then again hidden behind the Compass Rene Herse crankset is a Phil Wood bottom bracket..

[AJosiahK]

if you have canti posts and your desired wheel/tire/fender combo can be accommodated by paul mini motos, get them.

that said, there is a reason why frames are built for ONLY paul brakes...because they are the best rim brakes currently on the market, across the board...mini motos and racers run this town.

yup!

TRP mini Vs work good too

[559Rando]

Im going to bump this a bit..

I am currently running some MAFAC brakes I've rebuilt completely, and while I like them, I also have the opportunity to get some Paul Racer M in the polished.

Would the Paul's be better? They aren't cheap and perhaps won't fit 'in' w my other components, being vintage Suntour Superbe and new SUZUE freewheel hub, MAFAC brake levers... but then again hidden behind the Compass Rene Herse crankset is a Phil Wood bottom bracket..
My opinion is the Mafacs (Racers and Raids) are BETTER than the Paul Racers. And better looking, too!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[El Chaba]

My opinion is the Mafacs (Racers and Raids) are BETTER than the Paul Racers. And better looking, too!

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I'll second this. While I like many modern parts, the pace of fake "innovations" in our sport is making me retro-grouchy about some things. It is in that spirit that I get a very satisfied feeling from the fact that nobody has been able to come up with a better solution to the problem of brake calipers clearing a widish road tire with fenders than the old-now 35+ years- Mafac centerpulls. It is a great poke in the eye for the "new/latest/greatest faction of the industry.

[belopsky]

Cool, thanks guys. I just rebuilt a set, thinking about selling it to try something else but also to get an old set of MAFACS to rebuild again as it was fun ;)

http://i.imgur.com/2HTcDKF.jpg

[559Rando]

Cool, thanks guys. I just rebuilt a set, thinking about selling it to try something else but also to get an old set of MAFACS to rebuild again as it was fun ;)

http://i.imgur.com/2HTcDKF.jpg
Did you use the Compass rebuild kit?

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[belopsky]

Did you use the Compass rebuild kit?

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Not entirely - I made my own bushings, bought the Compass washers, and then the rest of the hardware (adjusters/holders) and stainless springs from Grand Bois

[tv_vt]

Never, ever met a canti brake I liked. Squishy, hard to adjust, etc. Blah.

[MikeD]

I've had bikes with Weinman and Diacompe center pulls. Meh... Flexy with no power.

[559Rando]

Not entirely - I made my own bushings, bought the Compass washers, and then the rest of the hardware (adjusters/holders) and stainless springs from Grand Bois

For a guy who never took metal shop, making bushings is way beyond me. What's the advantage versus buying the Compass ones? Something fun to do? Cheaper? Did you use brass? I thought brass was soft, so I wonder why they use brass for these?

I've had bikes with Weinman and Diacompe center pulls. Meh... Flexy with no power.

That can be so many things. I quite liked my brazeon Dia Compe 750s with Kool Stop pads. The stock pads were lousy. I've also had good stopping with the CNC'ed Dia Compe 610s (centermounted) and the Weinmanns that came on my '71 Raleigh International. Cable housing, toe-in, brake pads, levers, cable routing, etc all factor into the stopping power and feel.

[belopsky]

For a guy who never took metal shop, making bushings is way beyond me. What's the advantage versus buying the Compass ones? Something fun to do? Cheaper? Did you use brass? I thought brass was soft, so I wonder why they use brass for these?

I decided to make my own because Compass was sold out of theirs when I wanted to rebuild.

All in all, if I had waited and got their hardware kit..vs what I paid/made myself, I saved $45, though I don't have all the glossy bits.

Next time I make another set, I might see if they'll sell me the hardware kit without bushings.

[belopsky]

I'll add that if you have a set of MAFAC that are laying around or got super cheap..some filing, sanding, polishing nets you some realllly nice brakes for $125

[Gummee]

If anyone's interested in a pair of the canti-style MAFACs, PM me. I have a pair I doubt I'll ever use

All ya gotta do to update them is run In-Place pads/holders

M

[Formulasaab]

My riding buddy Rich is behind the House Industries Velo stuff... Takes the Paul Racer brakes and jazzes them up a bit.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.houseind.com/app/public/spree/products/327/large/velo_paul_brakes_black_main.jpg?1434315239

https://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.houseind.com/app/public/spree/products/328/large/velo_paul_brakes_white_main.jpg?1434315249

[Pastashop]

Ok, question: I've a frame with 55 mm canti stud spacing. Otherwise normal vertical distance to rim. What brake to use?

[donevwil]

Ok, question: I've a frame with 55 mm canti stud spacing. Otherwise normal vertical distance to rim. What brake to use?

I'm guessing an older frame intended for Mafac Cantis? That's very narrow as I'm sure you're aware. Maybe some Kool Stop thinlines with posts on old Suntour XC-Pros or Shimano Deores? Posts will yield far more adjustment range than modern stud/spherical washer/nut. And definitely stay away from wide rims.

[Pastashop]

The frame is actually fairly new, clears 38 mm tires, but is set up with somewhat narrower spacing than common nowadays.

Another complicating factor: I'd like to try a carbon rim (don't ask why), so am trying to find a good pad for it...

Have a set of Shimano BR-R550 cantis... they use road brake style pads. Futzing with the spacers on the pads seems like it could work, but is somehow more problematic than other cantis I've set up in the past. Also they came with longish pads, and I've not spotted any carbon rim pads that would fit those longish holders.

[nash]

I have always wanted a bike with centerpull braze ons. Just to try out. Not to many out there besides going custom, which is beyond me financially.

I do love a good set of cantis though. A set of smooth post shimano cantis like older xt's lx's etc, can be set up real well and feel great in my experience. cantis arent hard to to set up, its just geometry and angles of the cables.

[marciero]

Am considering buying belopsky's Mafacs for braze-on mounting.
To compare with the Paul's-

Paul's have wider stud spacing.
Paul's have individual spring adjust.
CNC vs forged...

Any other considerations? Also considering Compass. But beyond the aesthetics, is there a benefit from these beyond what can be had by upgrading the parts on the Mafac (most of which belopsky seems to have done)?

[Nags&Ducs]

I ended up going with polished braze-on Paul Racers. They look awesome and stop even better. For stopping power, smoothness, and modulation, they're on par with the TRP mini-Vees that are on my wife's Mudhoney. Im very happy I went with them on my BJ.

[559Rando]

Am considering buying belopsky's Mafacs for braze-on mounting.
To compare with the Paul's-

Paul's have wider stud spacing.
Paul's have individual spring adjust.
CNC vs forged...

Any other considerations? Also considering Compass. But beyond the aesthetics, is there a benefit from these beyond what can be had by upgrading the parts on the Mafac (most of which belopsky seems to have done)?
Other considerations, ATMO:
- if the frame already has brazeons (Paul and Mafacs use different ones)
- pad-style (Mafacs use old school/less adjustable pads)

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[merckx]

I ended up going with polished braze-on Paul Racers. They look awesome and stop even better. For stopping power, smoothness, and modulation, they're on par with the TRP mini-Vees that are on my wife's Mudhoney. Im very happy I went with them on my BJ.

Please don't hold back, let's see more!

[Nags&Ducs]

Please don't hold back, let's see more!

I didn't think this forum would be that interested in an Audax/Rando frame, so I posted a bunch of pics on the C&V forum of BF. Plus, I can only post one pic at a time here so it's a bit cumbersome on TPL...but here goes with a few more.

[Nags&Ducs]

Please don't hold back, let's see more!

Another of the Pauls

[Nags&Ducs]

Please don't hold back, let's see more!

"You can ring my bell, ring my bell"

https://youtu.be/URAqnM1PP5E

[donevwil]

I didn't think this forum would be that interested in an Audax/Rando frame......

You are so wrong! Wonderful bike and build. I, for one, love seeing unique bikes and builds, not just another cookie cutter, plastic forked road or "gravel" bike.

[merckx]

Danke. Ride it handsomely.

[Erik_A]

I prefer the Paul Neo-Retro on the front for power:
https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/neo-retro/

..and the Paul Touring on the rear for heal clearance:
https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/touring-cantilever/

It has worked for hundreds of cyclocross racers, so why question this classic set-up.

[marciero]

I prefer the Paul Neo-Retro on the front for power:

..and the Paul Touring on the rear for heal clearance:

It has worked for hundreds of cyclocross racers, so why question this classic set-up.

Not sure I'd call it classic in light of the other brakes mentioned here, but if set up with low straddle cable hangar the touring cantis can have as much or more power than neo retro.

[palincss]

I didn't think this forum would be that interested in an Audax/Rando frame, so I posted a bunch of pics on the C&V forum of BF. Plus, I can only post one pic at a time here so it's a bit cumbersome on TPL...but here goes with a few more.

Lots of forward extension on that front fender - how stable is it? I had that much on my George Longstaff when I put metal fenders on it last year and quickly discovered (watching the front waving around on its own on rough terrain) that I needed a second fender stay forward of the fork crown.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1497/23882148142_bfc3099f76_c.jpg

[Nags&Ducs]

Lots of forward extension on that front fender - how stable is it? I had that much on my George Longstaff when I put metal fenders on it last year and quickly discovered (watching the front waving around on its own on rough terrain) that I needed a second fender stay forward of the fork crown.

TBH, I have only taken it for a short errand run of 4 mi round trip so I cant provide an accurate assessment. However, during that short ride, the front fender/fork crown attachment bolt came loose and it wobbled like crazy. I re tightened so it shouldn't happen again, and it feels pretty stable. But if it becomes an issue, I know what to do, thanks to you Palincss!!!

[palincss]

If you do decide you need to add a second fender stay forward of the fork crown, there are a couple of things you need to know:


Velo Orange sells extra stays, R clips and eyebolts

If your fork, like that on the Longstaff, has but one eyelet, you can still fit two R clips on it, even though at first glance it doesn't look as though two will fit. The ends of the stays have to be cut very accurately with virtually no overlap past the edge of the R clip to fit, and you'll need a spacer between the two R clips. I found that a Presta valve nut works perfectly. It's an interesting 3D puzzle.