Unclear geometry listing, who eats shipping costs?

[blantonator]

So I ordered a Twin Six Ti Rando only to discover after it arrived that the seat tube measurement on the 53 is actually 57cm unlike the listed 53 on the website. 53 is the seat tube, center to top of top tube. The frame is beautiful and would have loved to have kept it, but 4cm is a big discrepancy. Twin Six was happy enough to return the frame and apologize for the misunderstanding, but have refunded me money payment minus shipping. So now I'm out $50 :crap: Who is at fault here?

[AngryScientist]

if it was "unclear" and you didn't confirm before ordering, i would say shipping is on you. If the geometry was listed incorrectly, i would say shipping is on them.

that's my opinion though.

[CampyorBust]

Thats some bull sheeeeet, they owe you fidy bucks, the right sized frame and some swag.

[blantonator]

How do you read this. I read it as Center to Top of seat tube and don't really understand any other way to, although I agree some people list center to top of top tube, but that usually comes with a drawing.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0883/2790/products/RandoGeo_0e465967-cfae-4e31-ad1f-1da8b5c5da96_2048x2048.jpg?v=1454710434

[sokyroadie]

Center to top of top tube IMHO.

Jeff

[ColonelJLloyd]

Have you asked them how they came to the 53cm measurement? Does this change the stack or reach you were counting on? I'm guessing it's a higher standover than you were looking for.

I agree that the chart would indicate the length of the seat tube FROM THE CENTER OF THE BB shell to the top of the seat tube.

If they don't agree that the error or misunderstanding is their responsibility and you feel different (and you paid with a CC), you can file a claim with your CC company.

[bobswire]

The spec graph shows C-T, no two ways about it. They owe you.

[AngryScientist]

The spec graph shows C-T, no two ways about it. They owe you.

yea, based on that chart, are you sure they didnt just accidentally send you a 57 size frame? how do the other measurements look?

[mg2ride]

How do you read this. I read it as Center to Top of seat tube and don't really understand any other way to, although I agree some people list center to top of top tube, but that usually comes with a drawing.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0883/2790/products/RandoGeo_0e465967-cfae-4e31-ad1f-1da8b5c5da96_2048x2048.jpg?v=1454710434

I read this as it's 53 to the top of the top tube and 57 to the top of the seat tube (Stack).

It sounds like that is what he got. Shipping is on him unless I misunderstand.

[blantonator]

I read this as it's 53 to the top of the top tube and 57 to the top of the seat tube (Stack).

It sounds like that is what he got. Shipping is on him unless I misunderstand.

When has stack ever been related to seat tube?

http://bikedynamics.co.uk/images/Geometry3.jpg

[rando]

"Discourage litigation. Persuade your neighbors to compromise whenever you can. Point out to them how the nominal winner is often a real loser - in fees, expenses, and waste of time. As a peacemaker the lawyer has a superior opportunity of being a good man. There will still be business enough."

-Abraham Lincoln

[AngryScientist]

what's the head tube length of the frame you have in hand?

[blantonator]

130mm

[bobswire]

When has stack ever been related to seat tube?

http://bikedynamics.co.uk/images/Geometry3.jpg

Agree, i've never seen a spec sheet refer to the very top of the seat tube as stack. I think of stack referring to head tube. That spec sheet is very confusing though technically they snuck this one by you ( and most of us).

[AngryScientist]

130mm

well that disproves my theory of the wrong frame size.

[mg2ride]

When has stack ever been related to seat tube?

http://bikedynamics.co.uk/images/Geometry3.jpg

Fair enough. I'm not clear on what the measurement of the ST from center of BB to the top of the TT was on the bike they sent you.

If it was 57, they owe you.

If it was 53, they don't.

ATMO, which generally don't mean squdush

[blantonator]

Fair enough. I'm not clear on what the measurement of the ST from center of BB to the top of the TT was on the bike they sent you.

If it was 57, they owe you.

If it was 53, they don't.

ATMO, which generally don't mean squdush

on the bike i got:
seat tube: center to top of top tube = 53
seat tube: center to top = 57

The geometry says C-T. My current bike is a 52 and measures 52 C to top.

[mg2ride]

on the bike i got:
seat tube: center to top of top tube = 53
seat tube: center to top = 57

The geometry says C-T. My current bike is a 52 and measures 52 C to top.

My interpretation (and theirs apparently) of "C-T" is center of BB to Top of TT.

Had I ordered it I would have gotten exactly what I expected.

[blantonator]

My interpretation (and theirs apparently) of "C-T" is center of BB to Top of TT.

Had I ordered it I would have gotten exactly what I expected.

why would you expect that. This is every measurement i've ever seen.

https://www.bikecad.ca/faqFiles/seat_tube_length.png

[mg2ride]

why would you expect that. This is every measurement i've ever seen.

https://www.bikecad.ca/faqFiles/seat_tube_length.png

I have not given it a lot of thought and honestly don't know why I think that. I will admit that I have always thought it was a meaningless number given that TT diameters can vary.

What you are showing makes more sense. I'm just saying that I think there are a lot of people that would have understood what they shown.

For clarity they should have I figure that shows what each measurement means.

Refunding shipping has more to do with the company policy. They can be wrong and still not refund shipping

[AJosiahK]

"Discourage litigation. Persuade your neighbors to compromise whenever you can. Point out to them how the nominal winner is often a real loser - in fees, expenses, and waste of time. As a peacemaker the lawyer has a superior opportunity of being a good man. There will still be business enough."

-Abraham Lincoln

great quote!

[FlashUNC]

I think your measurements are exactly what you should expect to get, given the first stock photo of the frame. The seat tube clearly extends a couple centimeters above the top of the top tube. But that's meaningless for standover or anything else. Its purely aesthetics around how much seat post is showing.

The relevant figure is the one they posted, the center to the top of the top tube, which you say is accurate to what they posted on the chart. If the top tube met the seat tube at the top of the seat tube, you might have an argument.

But when their stock photo shows the seat tube extending beyond the top tube, and the frame you get bears that out in your measurements, I'd wager there's someone at Twin Six scratching their head right now about your complaint.

So no, shipping's on you.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0883/2790/products/StandardTiRando_1_1024x1024.jpg?v=1454709009

[Mark McM]

If I understand this correctly, the true length of the seat tube is 57 cm (from the center of the BB), and the distance from the center of the BB to the top of the top tube (at the junction between seat tube and top tube) is 53 cm, which means that the seat tube extends 4 cm above the top tube. Is this correct? Does this cause a problem? Does it prevent the seat from being low enough? Are all of the other spec'ed dimensions correct?

As long as you can get the seat low enough, then it would appear that except the extra length of the seat tube, the geometry of the frame (including the position of the top tube) duplicates the geometry of a frame with a true 53 cm seat tube length. The only difference being that there is less seat post showing than if the seat tube were shorter.

[AngryScientist]

I think your measurements are exactly what you should expect to get, given the first stock photo of the frame. The seat tube clearly extends a couple centimeters above the top of the top tube. But that's meaningless for standover or anything else. Its purely aesthetics around how much seat post is showing.

The relevant figure is the one they posted, the center to the top of the top tube, which you say is accurate to what they posted on the chart. If the top tube met the seat tube at the top of the seat tube, you might have an argument.

But when their stock photo shows the seat tube extending beyond the top tube, and the frame you get bears that out in your measurements, I'd wager there's someone at Twin Six scratching their head right now about your complaint.

So no, shipping's on you.


i agree with Flash and have to ask: why does it matter to you that the seat tube extends 4cm above the top tube? should not matter to effective sizing, no? just curious why that number is a deal breaker if all the other measurements are as you expected.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I'm not understanding how this wasn't cleared up with Twin Six BEFORE you shipped the frame back to them.

[daker13]

i agree with Flash and have to ask: why does it matter to you that the seat tube extends 4cm above the top tube? should not matter to effective sizing, no? just curious why that number is a deal breaker if all the other measurements are as you expected.

I kind of agree. 4 cm=1 1/2"= not a ton of extra seatpost.

[blantonator]

i agree with Flash and have to ask: why does it matter to you that the seat tube extends 4cm above the top tube? should not matter to effective sizing, no? just curious why that number is a deal breaker if all the other measurements are as you expected.

It matters because I had planned to use this bike for bikepacking and there is no getting a bikepacking seatbag with this much seatpost.

http://i.imgur.com/gy7m6VV.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Shipping's still on you imo. You have a specific need that the first stock photo shows may be an issue with the seat tube extending beyond that ST/TT junction. Twin Six listed the geo chart accurately, just not the number you needed to answer your question.

Next time drop them a line beforehand. Ounce of prevention, pound of worry, all that.

[christian]

C-T is center of bb to top of top tube. Has been since long before ugly frames with stovepipe seat tubes got popular.

Shipping on you.

[Lewis Moon]

For future reference: You can't take ANY frame measurement in a vacuum. Head and seat angle affect effective TT length. Headtube length is ALWAYS an issue; it determines whether you can get by with a +- 6 degree stem or will have to stack a pile of ugly spacers or get a big drop stem fabbed.
BB drop, rake, chainstay length....

The best thing to do (IMHO) is to meticulously document the dimensions and angles of a frame you really like and feel comfortable on and compare any new frame to that. You can adjust a lot with saddle setback and stem length/angle, but at some point you're compensating for the wrong frame.

[staggerwing]

Well, according to your head tube measurement, they sent you a 53. But, if the geometry chart you posted is the only thing they publish, then it is a bit misleading. While the seat tube extension doesn't change fit, it does works against your intended use, and should have mentioned somewhere in the geometry chart.

Perhaps you could suggest splitting the shipping charges.

Also, what is the chance 2cm can be removed from the extension? Would that be enough? Being titanium, there is no paint to damage. Just a thought.

[ripvanrando]

It matters because I had planned to use this bike for bikepacking and there is no getting a bikepacking seatbag with this much seatpost.

http://i.imgur.com/gy7m6VV.jpg

Did you try to mount your bikepacking bag on the seat post? You only need around 4 inches.

I like (a lot) the long extension of the seat tube because this would be a very good place to mount the rear light. The bikepacking bag would then fit nice and tight above this tube and onto the seat post itself. Otherwise, mounting the tail light onto a seat stay puts it at risk for damage.

I do not think you are owed shipping in either direction but that is just my opinion. You messed up.

[chiasticon]

nice looking frame. anyone know who's making the twin six ti frames?

I dislike it when there's no image to go with the geo listing. but that said, I'm pretty meticulous about putting it all into a bike comparator spreadsheet against a bike I know fits well, to see how it'll fit and what components I need to get contact points the same. and if I had a need for a specific thing like a large seat bag and that necessitated having X amount of seatpost showing, then I would definitely do such a comparison and/or make calls to twin six about it.

if you haven't sent it back, and the bike otherwise fits, maybe you can explore using the rack eyelets for carrying things? unless you had planned on doing that in addition to the seat bag, I guess...

also worth noting that if a 53 fits you that way, you may run into similar issues with other stock bikes, as that geo doesn't look super unusual to me. just something else to consider before writing it off.

[soulspinner]

Well, according to your head tube measurement, they sent you a 53. But, if the geometry chart you posted is the only thing they publish, then it is a bit misleading. While the seat tube extension doesn't change fit, it does works against your intended use, and should have mentioned somewhere in the geometry chart.

Perhaps you could suggest splitting the shipping charges.

Also, what is the chance 2cm can be removed from the extension? Would that be enough? Being titanium, there is no paint to damage. Just a thought.

sounds good

[christian]

Well, according to your head tube measurement, they sent you a 53. But, if the geometry chart you posted is the only thing they publish, then it is a bit misleading. While the seat tube extension doesn't change fit, it does works against your intended use, and should have mentioned somewhere in the geometry chart.
It's not like there aren't pictures of this bicycle on, say, the internet.

Guess what - last week I ordered shorts in a size 34. They were too big - almost like a 35. I had to send them back and get 33s. But seriously, I'm a 34. And still had to pay shipping.

[blantonator]

I sent it back. But yea there are no pictures of this in a 53. and it's not like bikes have varying seat tube lengths depending on gemoetry. Mos bikes in my size tend to get short seat tubes to accommodate shorter rider, where in the larger sizes that doesn't matter.

[FlashUNC]

Every photo I can find of this bike has an extension of the seat tube beyond the top tube. As we've discussed ad nauseum, this is a aesthetic choice by Twin Six and whoever's making them. I'm not sure what you expected when all evidence that exists -- or a quick email before buying it -- would have cleared up the confusion.

[blantonator]

Every photo I can find of this bike has an extension of the seat tube beyond the top tube. As we've discussed ad nauseum, this is a aesthetic choice by Twin Six and whoever's making them. I'm not sure what you expected when all evidence that exists -- or a quick email before buying it -- would have cleared up the confusion.

I expected a 53 C-T seat tube to mean that.

[weisan]

Live and learn.

[eippo1]

Actually, those measurements have always been a bit fuzzy. Everyone measures things differently and that's just how it is. There is no standard and never was a standard way in terms of manufacturers. Just something to know like how a Colnago that is a 54s is actually a 56.

I believe that Bianchi used to measure in the fashion used by Twin Six, but am not certain.

[ripvanrando]

It does. Center of BB shell along the seat tube until you get to the top.......of the top tube.

[tommyrod74]

It does. Center of BB shell along the seat tube until you get to the top.......of the top tube.

This. Not to beat a dead horse (flogging away here), but the only germane reason for the seat tube measurement these days is to determine if standover will be sufficient. The seat tube (or lack thereof) above the top tube is an aesthetic choice that can would only hinder getting the seat low enough for a tiny fraction of riders who are on the correct frame size.

[helmut]

It does. Center of BB shell along the seat tube until you get to the top.......of the top tube.

Unless you are say, Trek Bikes. They measure from the center of the BB shell to the top of the.......seat tube.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10-race-shop-limited/p/1479200-2017

[unterhausen]

all I have to say is that geometry chart his horribly skewed towards taller people. But they did tell you stack and reach, which tells you that the bike is a 57. Really needs a figure, and possibly a "effective seat tube length"

I have to say that calling that a 53 is horribly misleading. I don't think anyone else in the bike industry would do that. I think most companies would call it a 56 or a "large" or something like that. Of course, when I buy a frame I reverse engineer the geometry chart, since they are so screwed up nowadays.

[christian]

No. The 53 is like any other 53. It just has a long seat tube extension above the top tube. I ride a stock 56 and I could fit on a 55 one of these no problems.

[ripvanrando]

Unless you are say, Trek Bikes. They measure from the center of the BB shell to the top of the.......seat tube.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10-race-shop-limited/p/1479200-2017

So, you are thinking a 52 cm Trek would have a 52 cm seat tube? If you buy the 52 cm in the link, you actually get a 48 cm seat tube.

There are solutions to mounting a bikepacking bag for short riders.

[jtbadge]

If you had such a strict requirement about that specific dimension, couldn't you have just asked them before purchasing? Seems ludicrous to expect them to expect them to pay for return shipping.

[helmut]

So, you are thinking a 52 cm Trek would have a 52 cm seat tube? If you buy the 52 cm in the link, you actually get a 48 cm seat tube.

There are solutions to mounting a bikepacking bag for short riders.

I would think the seat tube is 48.2cm from the center of the BB to the top of the seat tube. If a frame maker listed 53cm C-T, I would probably assume that it was to the top of the seat tube. I would call/email to confirm this though, and eliminate any confusion.

What kind of work-arounds do you use for mounting the bags where space is limited? Is there a bag that works best?

[mg2ride]

More than anything else, this thread demonstrates how difficult it can be to communicate.

[Plum Hill]

nice looking frame. anyone know who's making the twin six ti frames?

Review I found on the 'net says it's Chinese.
Drat.

[blantonator]

Well after being a squeaky wheel, Brent from Twin Six issued a full refund. It' sa bit disappointing, because although chinese made, the frame was beautifully made and exactly what I have been looking for. I now how have a pile of parts and a scrapped projected!

[fuzzalow]

Well after being a squeaky wheel, Brent from Twin Six issued a full refund. It' sa bit disappointing, because although chinese made, the frame was beautifully made and exactly what I have been looking for. I now how have a pile of parts and a scrapped projected!

You whined and cried about this long enough, in a public forum, that you finally got what you wanted.

Are you happy now?

[Louis]

Maybe I missed it above, but don't they make one in your size?

[blantonator]

You whined and cried about this long enough, in a public forum, that you finally got what you wanted.

Are you happy now?

That's very adult of you.

[mg2ride]

You whined and cried about this long enough, in a public forum, that you finally got what you wanted.

Are you happy now?

I doubt if this thread and anything to do with the refund. In the end, the majority of people that posted in this threaded sided with the C-T term that twin six used.

Had they read this thread they likely would have refused the refund.

At least he is not asking them to refund the cost of the "pile of parts". It is sad to think this was the only frame that could of worked.

[blantonator]

okay, I'm done with this thread. thanks all.