Vuelta (spoiler)

[MattTuck]

Awesome stage to watch today. Robert Gesink wins his first grand tour stage. Orica hatches and executes an ambitious strategy that you always here about, but rarely see work out.

Quintana and Froome look to be very close on the hills. Will see what happens tomorrow (another hill top finish) and then the TT next week.

[regularguy412]

Awesome stage to watch today. Robert Gesink wins his first grand tour stage. Orica hatches and executes an ambitious strategy that you always here about, but rarely see work out.

Quintana and Froome look to be very close on the hills. Will see what happens tomorrow (another hill top finish) and then the TT next week.

IMHO, Quintana needs more time than what he's got on Froomey, vis a vis: the time trial. The next few stages should be pretty exciting. I loved watching the mano a mano today between those two. They were in their own little world. Agreed re: the Orica 'plan'. It almost worked -- completely. Still was well executed. Tinkhoff would never be allowed to arrange such a plan unless other teams just plain aren't paying attention or they don't have the legs either. Plus, Contador may not have the legs even if they did get a few guys up the road.

Valverde may have hit the wall today. We'll see how he fares tomorrow. I'm still waiting on Carthy of Caja Rural to 'do' something. I know he's changing teams, but it's like he's just goin' thru the motions.

Mike in AR:beer:

[ultraman6970]

This was the 1st stage i was able to see in full and was prety good, the problem tomorrow is that eventhought it is a short stage teams will have problems controlling the situation, the last climb is really nasty aswell.

Contador is not in bad shape but for some reason he can't spin no more and for being a one man show he is not doing bad at all.

Rooting for quintana but who knows what is going to happen, 1 minute is not that much agaist froome at all and now they have to take care of the 2 orica guys and anybody wanting to get a piece of the cake, Sky as a team is really weak, same with movistar, anything can happen. The tour is so boring compared with the vuelta....

[jlwdm]

This was the 1st stage i was able to see in full and was prety good, the problem tomorrow is that eventhought it is a short stage teams will have problems controlling the situation, the last climb is really nasty aswell.

....

I could not find much info on today's stage. The last climb averages just 4.6%. Are there some steep sections I am not seeing?

Jeff

[ultraman6970]

THere was a perico puertos videos in you tube and looks like the last part is super steep and pretty much gravel from what I noticed.

[livingminimal]

IMHO, Quintana needs more time than what he's got on Froomey, vis a vis: the time trial.

That's every single person with a pulse's opinion.

This race sucks. No drama, no excitement.

Wheres the lined up sprinters trains? with pre-determined stages that only Cav, Greipel or Kittel can win? Where's the dyed-in-the-wool predictions of mountain top stage finishes that never shake up the GC?

Such bull****. Random nobodys winning with daring moves out of all day breaks.

Who does Simon Yates thinks he is, taking time after going 30km from the finish with tactical brilliance?

This race sucks.

What I mean is, this race is so much ****ing better than the formulaic bull**** the tour has become. The Giro and the Vuelta are now both so much damn better than the tour.

[franswa]

Tell us how you really feel.

[livingminimal]

Tell us how you really feel.

What do you mean? ;)

I just tire easily and am riled by those that think of the Vuelta as third rate and that aside from the marketing and non-cyclist exposure to racing, that the tour trumps all. It doesn't. The racing in the Giro and Vuelta are consistently better, year after year.

[regularguy412]

What do you mean? ;)

I just tire easily and am riled by those that think of the Vuelta as third rate and that aside from the marketing and non-cyclist exposure to racing, that the tour trumps all. It doesn't. The racing in the Giro and Vuelta are consistently better, year after year.

I actually agree with you 100%. In fact, the Vuelta is my fave of the grand tours. I think the TdF organizers (Prudhomme) could do with some inspiration from the Vuelta staff. I think they've tried to amend it somewhat in the last few years by not having a prologue time trial. That puts everybody in the mix and makes for much better first-week racing. The first-day TTT of this year's Vuelta definitely put Contador on the back foot, but now he's been able to recover somewhat.

The last week will be a dog(ma) fight. :D

Mike in AR:beer:

[ultraman6970]

Just saw the last 4 km and I was kind'a.... "*** HAPPENED HERE!!!!"... I said it before, Froome is a great rider but w/o a team to back him up he just fades, Quintana went for it, contador again racing SOLO and getting the best rider of the day.

And jlwdm thought nothing was going to happen today :D Seen the weirdest stuff to happen in the last 4 Vueltas.

Totally see attacks like crazy going up tomorrow, it would be really awesome some riders getting time tomorrow going down hill.

ps: now have to wait till tonite to be able to watch the whole stage and how the race developed... :/

[weisan]

Excellent! That's exactly what Quintana needed to do....put some daylight between him and Froome before the ITT.

[Elefantino]

MVP of the day: Valverde.

If you watched the first Kms you saw him darting in an out in front of Froome, allowing the break to go. Froome's teammates were clueless. Then when the break got a gap of about 20 seconds, Valverde put the hammer down and pulled Froome away from the majority of the Sky team. Finally, when Froome seemed like he wanted to try to close the gap in the last 20k or so, Valverde went back to dick mode again, zigzagging, speeding and slowing.

Brilliant.

[72gmc]

Make all the steak jokes you want, but Contador is still the epitome of the stage racer for me--even now, past his prime. He just wants to race, on any part of the course, as much or more than anyone else out there.

I hope Nairo and the next generation follow his lead and whoop up on the data-driven racebots.

[ultraman6970]

I was reading in another forum (cyclingtorrents) that a bunch of riders did not make the cut out time, looks like is like was 31 minutes and a bunch of riders arrived 54 minutes later and the discussion was if they will enforce the rule or not. Between the jokes the problem with enforcing the rule is that Froome might get no team mates to start tomorrow :)

Would be a total d i c K move from the spaniards if they do such a thing, funny as hell tho :)

[ultraman6970]

Ok here it is... hope you guys know spanish.

http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=On-Demand+Full+Stage+15+Broadcast&dashboard=vuelta-a-espana&id=PcD24uBIZ7Q&series=0,PcD24uBIZ7Q,B0qQoy7J7zo&series_type=part&yr=2016

[livingminimal]

What a ****ing awesome day.
Nairo went full Patron today.
Evil empire is squashed (at least for today).
Valverde played the perfect teammate.
Contador is a savage.
Brambilla bookends his seasons with winning a stage and wearing pink in the Giro to winning this awesome Vuelta stage.
what a race. what. a. race.

[Drmojo]

Make all the steak jokes you want, but Contador is still the epitome of the stage racer for me--even now, past his prime. He just wants to race, on any part of the course, as much or more than anyone else out there.

I hope Nairo and the next generation follow his lead and whoop up on the data-driven racebots.

bertie's payback for TDF sorrow
Alejandro rocks
Those Latins stuck it to the white Kenyan and his Sky mates
Bravo la Vuelta!!
And old guys rule!

[Anarchist]

I was reading in another forum (cyclingtorrents) that a bunch of riders did not make the cut out time, looks like is like was 31 minutes and a bunch of riders arrived 54 minutes later and the discussion was if they will enforce the rule or not. Between the jokes the problem with enforcing the rule is that Froome might get no team mates to start tomorrow :)

Would be a total d i c K move from the spaniards if they do such a thing, funny as hell tho :)

Actually it would just be enforcing the rule, that all of the riders knew very well but chose to ignore because they were certain the organizers wouldn't DQ them all.

So a bunch of guys get a day off, take an extra hour to rise 120 KM barely break a sweat and ignore their jobs.

And you think it would be a poor move by the organizers?? (and by the way - La Vuelta is run by ASO - the same people that run the Tour de France - so it would be the French, not the Spaniards - but don't let that get in the way of your "damn foreigners" rant)

Amazing.

[72gmc]

And once again Sky gets a huge gift from a grand tour race jury.

At least 4 domestiques each for Nairo and Alberto put in the effort to make the cut. Every domestique from Sky sat up and took a rest day. Who might have the fresher team tomorrow?

But we can't enforce the time cut because grovel grovel money grovel.

[ultraman6970]

Perico delgado was saying sometihng about the cut time and that probably was not going to happen because like 50+ riders did not make it, the group was way too big to enforce the rule, to me sucks, rule is rule, either way I would love to see froomey's face at the moment they tell him that he needs to finish the vuelta with 2 riders.

Well tomorrow the problem is that the last 20km are around the coast, that means a lot of wind, who knows what Sky will do, they have to go for it tomorrow they are screwed.

The other thing Perico was saying that is totally truth is that Froome cant race by himself, he barely pulled and if it wasnt for Astana froome would have lost 3 to 5 minutes. And is true, if you see the stage the dude barely pulled, barely maybe 4 to 5 times? Quintana's group had to sweat it the whole day. So surprise them (perico and the other comentators) to see froome to just drop the ball in the last climb because he shouldnt have been that tired at all, maybe psychologically in La LA land? What sky should have done today was to wait for the guys that were behind and regroup the whole team to limit losses eventhought that meant to let valverde and company go, they worn out the team at the front and at the back at the same time.

Tomorrow sky has to work the whole day and would not surprise me to see contador again cutting the group from before the bottom of the climb as he did a few years go with the collada stage (i believe), same type of profile, long climb and then down hill to the end.

[Anarchist]

Perico delgado was saying sometihng about the cut time and that probably was not going to happen because like 50+ riders did not make it, the group was way too big to enforce the rule, to me sucks, rule is rule, either way I would love to see froomey's face at the moment they tell him that he needs to finish the vuelta with 2 riders.

Well tomorrow the problem is that the last 20km are around the coast, that means a lot of wind, who knows what Sky will do, they have to go for it tomorrow they are screwed.

The other thing Perico was saying that is totally truth is that Froome cant race by himself, he barely pulled and if it wasnt for Astana froome would have lost 3 to 5 minutes. And is true, if you see the stage the dude barely pulled, barely maybe 4 to 5 times? Quintana's group had to sweat it the whole day. So surprise them (perico and the other comentators) to see froome to just drop the ball in the last climb because he shouldnt have been that tired at all, maybe psychologically in La LA land? What sky should have done today was to wait for the guys that were behind and regroup the whole team to limit losses eventhought that meant to let valverde and company go, they worn out the team at the front and at the back at the same time.

Tomorrow sky has to work the whole day and would not surprise me to see contador again cutting the group from before the bottom of the climb as he did a few years go with the collada stage (i believe), same type of profile, long climb and then down hill to the end.

I guess they will be fine then, the majority of the team took the day off today.

They will be nice and rested tomorrow.

[jc031699]

Way to go Floyd!!!

[rnhood]

Yea, they need to let team Sky do all the work tomorrow.

When there isn't some specific reason for time differences outside the cut, such as maybe a bad crash, maybe a major weather event, etc., then the rule should stand. Waiving the rule when its only performance that spelled the time gap is doing a disservice to the leaders as they worked their butts off while others just sat up and strolled along to conserve their energy. This is a race and it should be performance oriented, just like a major golf tournament. If they can't keep up, get'em out.

[franswa]

What do you mean? ;)

I just tire easily and am riled by those that think of the Vuelta as third rate and that aside from the marketing and non-cyclist exposure to racing, that the tour trumps all. It doesn't. The racing in the Giro and Vuelta are consistently better, year after year.

I actually agree with you. The TDF was a total snooze festival.

[Len J]

I can't remember the last time a GT leader was allowed to get away in the break. Great racing by everyone but Sky and Orica.

[Elefantino]

I can't remember the last time a GT leader was allowed to get away in the break. Great racing by everyone but Sky and Orica.
And Direct Energie. Not one rider inside the time limit.

Sky gambled smartly. When it became clear that they were gapped, it seems Froome's teammates sat up, knowing they wouldn't get DQ'd.

Brilliant.

[soulspinner]

Is 3minutes and 37 seconds enough in the tt?

[livingminimal]

Is 3minutes and 37 seconds enough in the tt?

Probably given the rest of the stages and the TT parcours

[72gmc]

And Direct Energie. Not one rider inside the time limit.

Sky gambled smartly. When it became clear that they were gapped, it seems Froome's teammates sat up, knowing they wouldn't get DQ'd.

Brilliant.

Brilliant or just observant? Sky's record with UCI race juries:

Eat illegally--ridiculously small time penalty
Run illegally--others are penalized (Froome is gifted their finish time)
Group cruise way outside of time cut--others are penalized for riding hard

[Elefantino]

Brilliant or just observant?

Almost -7 brilliant.

[regularguy412]

Brilliant or just observant? Sky's record with UCI race juries:

Eat illegally--ridiculously small time penalty
Run illegally--others are penalized (Froome is gifted their finish time)
Group cruise way outside of time cut--others are penalized for riding hard

^^+1000 on this.

However, it's not really Froomey or the riders that I dislike. It's that damn Brailsford and his smart @$$ attitude. Did I dream it, or did I hear a year or so ago that SKY was gonna kill their sponsorship pretty soon (like within another couple of years)?

[crossed fingers]

Mike in AR:beer:

[ultraman6970]

Well... the short asnwer is "who knows", Froome needs to get back 7 seconds for each kilometer from Quintana, the thing is that it can be done if quintana has a bad day and froome takes his secret vitamins that morning.

Worse case scenario froome will take close to 3 minutes and should need to figure something up in the Alto de Aitana stage to get the vuelta off quintana. The only problem is that Froome is clueless w/o his team to carry him, and after today's performance well... with some luck we will see nasty attacks from everybody to get into that podium. The question is what Sky will do, they know only one way to race, just put turbo from the start to the finish.

Is 3minutes and 37 seconds enough in the tt?

[livingminimal]

Well... the short asnwer is "who knows", Froome needs to get back 7 seconds for each kilometer from Quintana, the thing is that it can be done if quintana has a bad day and froome takes his secret vitamins that morning.

Worse case scenario froome will take close to 3 minutes and should need to figure something up in the Alto de Aitana stage to get the vuelta off quintana. The only problem is that Froome is clueless w/o his team to carry him, and after today's performance well... with some luck we will see nasty attacks from everybody to get into that podium. The question is what Sky will do, they know only one way to race, just put turbo from the start to the finish.

It's a big ask, 7 sec/km. Nairo has had good TT performances before.

I am no Sky/Froome fan in any way, shape, or form, but he is a smarter racer than you're giving credit by calling him clueless. This years tour showed a couple of moments, especially stage 8 on the descent from Peyresourde.

Sky has their formula - its boring, ****ty, and bad for cycling...but it works. I haven't seen yet what kind of injustice the organizers are going to do in terms of letting Sky essentially have a rest day today while Movistar crushed it and all but one stayed inside the time cut. They have some pride and aren't being underhanded and unfortunately will start the race just as Sky will tomorrow.

[jlwdm]

Froome peaked for the Tour and did not look as strong at Rio. In the Vuelta he started slow and then has been covering Quintana the best he could until today. He struggled a lot today just trying to stay upfront in the chase group and I don't think he will take enough time in the time trial to win. Plus there are more climbing stages to come.

Sky needs to let non-Tour riders have their day in a grand tour, but I am surprised they did not include one rider other than Froome on the Vuelta roster. Movistar has 4 Tour riders in addition to Quintana.

Jeff

[ultraman6970]

U are right, the team they took to the vuelta is weak compared to the TdF one, I get you that he is smart but you have to see the TdF mistakes aswell, I mean not as a race but as a rider... just dumb junior stuff that if it wasnt because the organizers drop him a cookie he should have been disqualified and every year some junior mistakes comes up. Yesterday was not the exception because his whole team should be out of the race for sand bagging. A couple of years ago contador got like 2 minutes out of him in the cross winds, honestly that was a junior mistake. Then the food incident, then the racing w/o a bike... yeah the go down sttack full gas was genius but the next day he end up jogging uphill...w t f? Junior stuff.

The sucking wheels style is killing him as a rider, thats his main problem IMO. Yesterday he barely pulled... no honor in that because he should have died with the boots on, and that killed his down hill attack in the tdf big time. Just a reminder, Voekler like 3+ years ago died with the boots on fighting for that jersey.

[enr1co]

Twenty minutes past the time limit?! Jury should have held the line and eliminated riders ( regardless of qty) as the rules state but I guess being Team Sky has its privileges- such bull**** :mad:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/vuelta-a-espana/jury-saves-half-vuelta-peloton-time-cut_419968

[jlwdm]

Twenty minutes past the time limit?! Jury should have held the line and eliminated riders ( regardless of qty) as the rules state but I guess being Team Sky has its privileges- such bull**** :mad:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/vuelta-a-espana/jury-saves-half-vuelta-peloton-time-cut_419968

It has nothing to do with Sky. The rule is never enforced with a large group.

Jeff

[adub]

It has nothing to do with Sky. The rule is never enforced with a large group.

Jeff

Exactly.

[72gmc]

Today's top 4 (at least) came from the rested group.

Wonder what's being said within the peloton.

[Anarchist]

Today's top 4 (at least) came from the rested group.

Wonder what's being said within the peloton.

You don't really have to wonder too much. Especially after Sky (the team where all but 1 missed the cutoff) had the nerve to start the day by complaining that the break yesterday was assisted by illegal drafting of motos.

[ultraman6970]

IMO the race would have turned quite interesting w/o the 90 sand baggers.

[jlwdm]

Today's top 4 (at least) came from the rested group.

Wonder what's being said within the peloton.

Yes, but more than half of the riders today were from the rested group. The rested group were the poor climbers, and today was a long gradual downhill finish. The results are what you would expect - rested or not.

Jeff

[72gmc]

^^^ true, the profile suited them.

Regardless I wonder how things go for the sandbaggers if they are prominent at the front for the rest of the tour.

[enr1co]

It has nothing to do with Sky. The rule is never enforced with a large group.

Jeff

Im familiar with the rule and the subjective exceptions and IMHO still think its bull*** and included consideration for Sky.

[ultraman6970]

IMO it is fair to save a few riders that did not make the cut like it happened zillion of times to Cav, but the problem to me is that when you have 90 guys that clearly can go pulling all together to save their butts from the clock or at least make it look like they are doing something for the cause, then I see a problem.

[Ray]

IMO it is fair to save a few riders that did not make the cut like it happened zillion of times to Cav, but the problem to me is that when you have 90 guys that clearly can go pulling all together to save their butts from the clock or at least make it look like they are doing something for the cause, then I see a problem.

But seriously, race organizers are gonna jettison over half of the total field, probably more than half of the remaining field? These riders are from all over the place and it's not just the stars that people tune into see. And getting rid of half of the field massively changes the race going forward in ways that might make it more interesting to some, but totally disrupt tactics going forward.

I actually have more problems when they let one or two marketable stars slide than the idea that a big grupetto is allowed to stay in the race. Hell, they bunch up specifically to protect each other in these situations.

Given the long tradition of letting large groups slide when they miss the deadline, if they're ever gonna change this approach, they better publicize the hell out of the change well before racing starts, not just arbitrarily change direction in the middle of a three week race...

-Ray

[rnhood]

Race organizers will not be jettisoning over half the field if they continually and consistently enforced the time cut. Yes, it would have happened for this particular stage because the riders knew that they would get a waiver based on past experience. What the race management needs to do is start enforcing the time cut for all grand tours. This would have the effect of making the race for the podium more competitive, and perhaps mitigating just a little of the "team" advantage. It would also lead to only a few cuts, or very few. I suspect all the riders, unless there is some mitigating issue such as health, can make the cut if they put forth the effort.

So it would slightly alter the race or tour dynamics.....and in a seemingly good way. Right now it appears someone or a small group that really gives it all, using both their conditioning, tactics and alliances only to be penalized a bit. Just doesn't seem fair, although I don't read about any of the riders complaining. I'm certainly no expert and there may be other disadvantages to enforcing a time cut but I have to ask, why is it in the rule book if its not going to be enforced?

[regularguy412]

Race organizers will not be jettisoning over half the field if they continually and consistently enforced the time cut. Yes, it would have happened for this particular stage because the riders knew that they would get a waiver based on past experience. What the race management needs to do is start enforcing the time cut for all grand tours. This would have the effect of making the race for the podium more competitive, and perhaps mitigating just a little of the "team" advantage.

So it would slightly alter the race or tour dynamics.....and in a seemingly good way. Right now it appears someone or a small group that really gives it all, using both their conditioning, tactics and alliances only to be penalized a bit. Just doesn't seem fair, although I don't read about any of the riders complaining. I'm certainly no expert and there may be other disadvantages to enforcing a time cut but I have to ask, why is it in the rule book if its not going to be enforced?

^^ This.

If a team, or group, or individual 'knows' there will be no repercussions, that's when the 'rule' becomes arbitrary. Either enforce it, or throw it out. At least those in the race who are actually TRYING to race by the rules will be vindicated.

Come to think of it, this 'group refusal to race' tactic could be an outgrowth of the heavy emphasis on Biological Passports and anti-doping pressure. I mean, seems like there have been fewer (practically none that I can think of offhand) doping violations this year. So if 90 riders in a 150+ strong field can't 'cut it' by doping, they then force the commissaires to look the other way when they don't want to race by the rules -- knowing that disqualifying over half the field will practically neuter the the race and the racing.

It's becoming a little bit like the Robber Barons of the late 1800s in the US (race organizers) vs. what later became the AFL-CIO ( the riders). The organizers need the riders to even 'have' a race, and the riders need the organizers/money/sponsors to be able to race and make a living. At one time in the late 1950s and early 1960s, around 56% of employees in the US were members of at least one labor union. Nowadays, that number is down to around 30%. Looks like the riders kinda went on 'strike' yesterday knowing that it's a little tough to hire scabs for replacements on short notice.

The 'rule' isn't worth the paper upon which it is written. It either needs to be enforced all the time or get rid of it.

Mike in AR:beer:

[MattTuck]

How do the winning time and grupetto time compare to the fastest expected time? I'm curious if the winners crushed the expected time, which would lend some credence to the decision to be more lenient.

[harlond]

why is it in the rule book if its not going to be enforced?I don't know, maybe to ensure that some lone rider doesn't keep the organizers from re-opening roads within a defined time after the leaders go through? But I agree with you, it would be important to know why the rule is in the rulebook to properly assess whether the commissaires acted rightly or wrongly here.

[MattTuck]

I don't know, maybe to ensure that some lone rider doesn't keep the organizers from re-opening roads within a defined time after the leaders go through? But I agree with you, it would be important to know why the rule is in the rulebook to properly assess whether the commissaires acted rightly or wrongly here.

Yeah, the two instances that jump out at me (because they're American) were Ted King at the TDF a few years ago, and Taylor Phinney (at Tirreno Adriatico, I think, but not 100%). In the case of king, he missed it by a few seconds, but was injured. In the case of Phinney, he was in the Grupetto on a very rainy day (if memory serves) and it was the second to last day or something, with only the TT left, and the entire grupetto except for him, abandoned the race. Leaving him to ride solo for a third of the race (again, if memory serves).

It would have been nice to reward the work and effort for either of these guys, but the race jury didn't.

Then you have this situation with the Vuelta. It seems pretty capricious to me, which, if you follow my rantings here, is something that I really hate. Create common sense rules that can be clearly interpreted, and enforce them. Rule of law vs. Rule of men, in my opinion...

[ultraman6970]

They add a % (15% i believe) to the time of the winner... that lead to 32 minutes late as a cutting time. For the record a team doing 4x100 km back in the day w/o aero bikes and steel bikes easy was able to do close to 1 hour and 45 minutes in 100 km, not super flat terrain either.

The winner time was 2 hours 54 minutes, that is like 34 km/h (21 mph) that considering the 3 climbs the thing is super fast but in some places they were hitting 80 km/h in the down hills...

So add the 30 minutes you end up in 3.4 hours (3:24) that is like 29.5 km/h... 18 mph... between you and me, a trained guy as they are easy can do that in the flats and with the small chainring (39x15) In the downhills as the winners group the 90 guys easy can do 50 km/h just rolling down and letting the bike go 53x13...that makes the uphill doable to a slow to descent pace.

The 90 guys did 3 hours 47 minutes, that translates into 16 mph... that means the 90 guys just sat and were riding so slow even in the downhills that probably like 99.9% of the forum members could have been able to stay with them using 39x15 and probably even go with them in the climbs. And remember that this is the average for 100km only, the group sat down when they had like 75 - 80 km to go. The other 20KM they did them almost full gas. 50km/h at least.

So if you look at it is not that the stage was too hard or too fast; the guys sat their butt and did not want to ride, as simple as that. We are talking about professional riders, no weekend forumites that can barely do 15 mph in the flats that is I mentioned before (if my math to the eye calculations are close to right) easily we could have stayed with them at least till the bottom of the last climb.

IMO sucks they did what they did.

How do the winning time and grupetto time compare to the fastest expected time? I'm curious if the winners crushed the expected time, which would lend some credence to the decision to be more lenient.

[enr1co]

He must have read this thread ;)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/news/froome-cut-teammates-ill-ride-vuelta-solo_420038

[bking]

did he say that before or after the decision was made?

[Ray]

On last night's Universal HD broadcast, Paul and Bob were discussing it and according to them, the "rulebook" such as it is does include both the rule and criteria that allow the organizers to make exceptions. I think one of them was an extraordinarily fast winners speed, which might have applied given how hard Nairo was punching it to put time into Froome. But the point is it's not a hard and fast rule and it never has been treated as one.

The organizers need to be predictable. The riders in this stage knew there was a near certainty that if that many of them came to the line together, however far beyond the cutoff, that they wouldn't be tossed from the race. Based on plenty of past experience and no indication to the contrary. If the race organizers want to change their approach, drop or severely limit the exceptions, and enforce the rule more strictly, they should probably adopt rule changes eliminating (or being more specific about) exceptions sometime this off-season and make damn sure all of the riders know about the changed approach before the first stage races begin next year. To just arbitrarily toss over half of the field on Sunday's stage without any warning of a change in approach would have caused a far bigger uproar than waiving the cutoff.

I think they made the right call on Sunday, given past practices. If they want to be stricter about it going forward, great, but be damn clear about that with the riders when they decide on any such change...

-Ray

[jlwdm]

They add a % (15% i believe) to the time of the winner...

IMO sucks they did what they did.

At least in the Tour the cutoff time is more complicated to compute. The % added is based on the difficulty of the stage and the average speed of the winner. It could be 5% sometimes and 15% sometimes.

It kinda of sucked that a few days ago the peloton let the break win by almost 34 minutes also.

Jeff

[72gmc]

The issue for me is whether the group even tried very hard.

Among other sources I listen to the Cycling News Podcast (big fan despite their tendency to focus on Froome) and they had interesting POVs from DS's, riders, the race director and of course themselves.

My takeaway: the riders knew they weren't trying and that they had safety in numbers and tradition. They put the race director in a ****ty position vis-á-vis sponsors, teams, and fans.

A missed opportunity to send a good message. Easy for me to say, I know.

[MattTuck]

The issue for me is whether the group even tried very hard.

Among other sources I listen to the Cycling News Podcast (big fan despite their tendency to focus on Froome) and they had interesting POVs from DS's, riders, the race director and of course themselves.

My takeaway: the riders knew they weren't trying and that they had safety in numbers and tradition. They put the race director in a ****ty position vis-á-vis sponsors, teams, and fans.

A missed opportunity to send a good message. Easy for me to say, I know.

I am not sure that 'trying hard' should be part of the interpretation of the rule. There have been several occasions when the entire peloton has soft pedaled the stage, and not even contested the sprint. Keep it objective and based on time. The race jury has enough to deal with, we don't need to add subjective tests like , 'did they try hard enough?', or figuring out if they were lazy, or just slow.

[FlashUNC]

I sure as heck would watch a Vuelta where half the field got lopped by wheat under the scythe.

Clearly the teams and riders know theres no enforcement of this rule if they get a critical mass of riders at the back.

[72gmc]

I am not sure that 'trying hard' should be part of the interpretation of the rule.

I like your points but, to me at least, perceived effort is already a factor in the rule. The verbiage about extenuating circumstances invites the jury to decide whether or not a missed cut was avoidable.

It's all hypothetical now, but I think professionalism should play a part. If the image of this year's event is the reason to keep them in, that should be weighed against the lasting image of a peloton in slow motion at a grand tour.

[ultraman6970]

Is not even a whether situation, the 90 guys just sat there.

Do the math, how is possible that 90 guys can't ride in a group faster than 16 MPH for 2 hours??? I mean... it is just plain ridiculous what they did, would not surprise me that even Froome did a quick math and the guy felt ashamed of his team mates for the lack of pride, totally disrespectful for the sport and the race. I was Froome I would be mad of losing my team but well... they deserved it.

Imagine this, from the 90 each team sends the lowest rank domestiques to pull, you end up at least with 15 to 25 guys pulling steady 33 km/h (20 mph) and I assure you the 90 could have made the cut time, but maybe Farrar that he got off the back of the group at the mile number 1 :)

Is not a thing that they couldn't do it, the whole sack of 90 riders did not want to ride at all and just because of that they showed total disrespect for the race, the fans, the teams and the team mates that were trying to do something.




The issue for me is whether the group even tried very hard.

[fignon's barber]

I think you need to watch the entire stage , beginning to end, before rendering a verdict. As soon as the race director signaled start, Tinkoff had domestiques out of the saddle sprinting (even on descents) to open things up. The 2 groups ( NQ/AC and Froome/astana) basically did a TTT for 118km with the gap at +- 2min. For 3 hours!
The 90 that got dropped knew it was a beat down and were tactically trying to conserve energy in order to be productive in the crucial final week. You can't detest doping and all things Lance, then complain when riders act human.
The race commissaire could have proactively avoided this if it was a concern by radioing back to a trailing official and "drawing a line in the sand" During the stage.

[thegunner]

The 90 that got dropped knew it was a beat down and were tactically trying to conserve energy in order to be productive in the crucial final week.

that's fine and all, but with race radios and constant time gap updates, 20 mins does seem like they stopped caring. you can conserve energy and still try to follow the rules, i think what people are taking offense to is the blatant disregard to the rulebook and apathy towards the effort.

[FlashUNC]

Larry Warbasse of IamCycling has a column over at Rouleur about being in the group that was re-instated.

Most of it reads like apologia, but the one point where I'll concede he may be onto something is most everyone in that group had a team leader or multiple riders up the road in the "break" and had no incentive to chase because of that, and the group collectively decided to sit up given that lack of motivation.

I can see that. Don't agree with it 100%, but I can see the logic.

[Anarchist]

Larry Warbasse of IamCycling has a column over at Rouleur about being in the group that was re-instated.

Most of it reads like apologia, but the one point where I'll concede he may be onto something is most everyone in that group had a team leader or multiple riders up the road in the "break" and had no incentive to chase because of that, and the group collectively decided to sit up given that lack of motivation.

I can see that. Don't agree with it 100%, but I can see the logic.

So to paraphrase, "we decided that we didn't want to chase so we ignored the rules and sat up because we knew we wouldn't get booted"

[FlashUNC]

So to paraphrase, "we decided that we didn't want to chase so we ignored the rules and sat up because we knew we wouldn't get booted"

I'd amend it to include that everyone had a leader up the road, but yes, no incentive to chase combined with no fear of being booted from the race.

[Elefantino]

A view from inside:

https://rouleur.cc/journal/racing/vuelta-blog-larry-warbasse-and-time-cut

[saab2000]

The way to avoid these issues would be to have a different percentage cutoff on certain stages.

Short mountain stages are often explosive like that and create bigger time gaps in terms of percentage.

Anyway, I can see both sides. On the one hand I think those outside the time limit should have been eliminated. On the other hand, biting the hand that feeds you seems like a good way to lose sponsors. Sometimes in a professional world there are commercial considerations.

Anyway, it's in the past. Today's stage has a giant climb at the finish. :beer:

[jlwdm]

The way to avoid these issues would be to have a different percentage cutoff on certain stages.

Short mountain stages are often explosive like that and create bigger time gaps in terms of percentage.


...

Don't they do this already? I can't find anything on the Vuelta, but everything I see about the Tour says the cutoff is computed based on the profile of the stage and the speed of the winner.

Jeff

[MattTuck]

I have to say, I've been impressed with the crowd security on the climbs at the Vuelta. The fans seem extremely well marshalled, and there seem to be police placed at the right places to keep unruly fans from interfering with the racing.

[saab2000]

I have to say, I've been impressed with the crowd security on the climbs at the Vuelta. The fans seem extremely well marshalled, and there seem to be police placed at the right places to keep unruly fans from interfering with the racing.

Indeed. I'd like to see the barriers even further down the mountain, but the police presence is impressive.

Most spectators are respectful, but I did see one idiot running alongside the Contador/Froome/Quintana group with a selfie stick and he looked to be about 6" from the side of Contador.

What a douchebag.

[jlwdm]

I have to say, I've been impressed with the crowd security on the climbs at the Vuelta. The fans seem extremely well marshalled, and there seem to be police placed at the right places to keep unruly fans from interfering with the racing.

Much smaller crowds and the unruly fans are usually looking for publicity which the Tour provides and the Vuelta does not. Also a lot of the fans get to the summit finishes days before to get a good spot at the Tour and have been partying for days.

Jeff

[ultraman6970]

Hmmm Contador still there for the 3rd place, anybody knows how chavez can TT?? contador should be able to get those 5 or 6 seconds back??

Was checking chaves previous ITTs and who knows, in 10 km he lost like a minute to cancelara but in this one and with the podium who knows now.

Froome looked good today, thought he was not going to catch, impressive.

[72gmc]

Chavez has to feel a bit like a piece of cheese in front of my spoiled dog.

One 26 years old, the other 33. I usually root for the old guy but I'll root for both of them.

[jlwdm]

You would think Contador would take a lot of time from Chaves in a longer flat time trial.

Jeff

[livingminimal]

You would think Contador would take a lot of time from Chaves in a longer flat time trial.

Jeff

Yeah. I think the battle for third is all but sewn up....except...

...Contador doesn't play for third. He might go nuts on the last mountain stage and lose his podium position by flaming out and cracking badly.

[saab2000]

Yeah. I think the battle for third is all but sewn up....except...

...Contador doesn't play for third. He might go nuts on the last mountain stage and lose his podium position by flaming out and cracking badly.

We'll have to see where things lie after the time trial. That will actually be quite an interesting stage. Time trials late in races are hard to predict.

Froome at times looks vulnerable but then claws back, like today. Contador is capable of being an excellent time trialist but can be somewhat inconsistent. It's clear his fitness and form are returning after his TdF and early Vuelta mishaps.

I predict a final podium of Quintana, Froome and Contador in that order.

That said, it's not over until they cross the finish line in Madrid. They all know that.

[livingminimal]

yeah. caution is a word that contador cant understand. it's what makes him awesome. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Chaves got on.

Chaves form comes around at such a tough time in cycling. NQ has a headstart on him, Froome is gonna try to win six tours I'm sure, Aru will be after the Giro for the future I'm guessing...and there are lots of other younger climbers starting to come up. Adrien Costa is gonna be running things in a couple of years, potentially...just might be a rough time to be a mid-20s emerging GT contender. Liking all the competition though. This Vuelta really could have cut any number of ways given the time of the season.

[chiasticon]

My takeaway: the riders knew they weren't trying and that they had safety in numbers and tradition. They put the race director in a ****ty position vis-á-vis sponsors, teams, and fans.admittedly, I didn't watch the stage. but in general, nobody ever puts a camera on the grupetto. the attention it got later is bad press for the sponsors and such, sure. but in the moment, nobody cares as they're watching the fireworks up front.

I sure as heck would watch a Vuelta where half the field got lopped by wheat under the scythe.amen to that. would be super exciting at this point.

just something else to throw out there too: maybe all the DS's and Domestiques were just flabbergasted at what had happened that they didn't respond and organize quickly enough to do anything. by that point, the gap was huge and they would've had to otherwise kill themselves to make the cut. I mean, how often do we see all these GC guys jump into an early break and stay away all day?

[ultraman6970]

After seeing the "Perico puertos" and the same last climb stage done in the vuelta maybe 7 years ago i doubt the colombian can lose the vuelta, the climb looks like is long and everything but is like in the Tour... steady long uphill.

The only place where an attack can be done is in a downhill where the pavement is really bad... the other place is at the bottom of the last climb because that area is a military base so the gate is not that big at all.

Would be epic if Contador wins this thing.

[weisan]

I can't imagine the amount of pressure Nairo is put under. If he cracks...well, he cracks. If not, he proves himself once again a worthy grand tour GC winner.

[ultraman6970]

IMO tomorrow the stage will be the biggest carnage ever seen in the vuelta, they have to attack before the last climb, after seeing the climb in the videos there is no way for anybody to make a difference there.

[jlwdm]

I can't imagine the amount of pressure Nairo is put under. If he cracks...well, he cracks. If not, he proves himself once again a worthy grand tour GC winner.

Quintana should not have any problems as Movistar brought 4 support riders from the Tour while Sky did not bring any. Sky does not have much to attack with.

Jeff

[ultraman6970]

If froome wants the vuelta he needs to do it by himself.

[livingminimal]

Oh Chaves...

[harlond]

Can't understand how Contador let Chaves get up the road, and once Chaves was up the road, can't understand how Tinkov let Howson drop off the breakaway without Trofimov doing the same. But as CN is saying, maybe if Contador can stay with Froome up the final climb, he'll make the time back.

Edit: now Trofimov is back with Contador.

[livingminimal]

Can't understand how Contador let Chaves get up the road, and once Chaves was up the road, can't understand how Tinkov let Howson drop off the breakaway without Trofimov doing the same. But as CN is saying, maybe if Contador can stay with Froome up the final climb, he'll make the time back.

Edit: now Trofimov is back with Contador.

I think Contador knows following Froome on the final climb will earn him his time back, unless Chaves is on the best day of his career. Might be...but Howson will get ejected before too long.

Also no one, not even Froome or Nairo, was going to help Contador on that chase.

[oldpotatoe]

Can't understand how Contador let Chaves get up the road, and once Chaves was up the road, can't understand how Tinkov let Howson drop off the breakaway without Trofimov doing the same. But as CN is saying, maybe if Contador can stay with Froome up the final climb, he'll make the time back.

Edit: now Trofimov is back with Contador.

Yup, even if Contador, 'didn't have it today'..he still needed to try to stay with Chavez..IMHO...to preserve his podium..looks like AC is 4th now.

[livingminimal]

I really want to see Quintana show the kill and go on the attack. Or counter when Froome does. Drive it home, Nairo. Blow up the death star.

[guido]

Chaves takes the podium from Contador by 13 seconds...

[bobswire]

Nice way to finish off the year for GC racers,now bring on Cyclocross!

[rePhil]

Orica has an active youtube channel where they roundup their race day. They look like they have a tight team that manages to have a good time. I've been impressed with Chaves, he's always smiling and happy to race his bike.He's also quick to thank his team mates and team.

[ultraman6970]

Saw up to km 100 to go, then all the feeds died, just got back from a extra hot ride... need to see how is that contador lost that podium. Well thats life!. :)

[mhespenheide]

Nice way to finish off the year for GC racers,now bring on Cyclocross!

Hey now, hey now -- Il Lombardia is still coming, one of my favorite races of the calendar. Shame it doesn't have the pull that it used to.

[bobswire]

Hey now, hey now -- Il Lombardia is still coming, one of my favorite races of the calendar. Shame it doesn't have the pull that it used to.

Yeah but that is more a classic not GC contender type race though this years edition should be exciting. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/il-lombardia-celebrates-110th-edition-with-tougher-new-route/

[livingminimal]

Hey now, hey now -- Il Lombardia is still coming, one of my favorite races of the calendar. Shame it doesn't have the pull that it used to.

Lombardia, Paris-Tours, WORLDS....

[livingminimal]

Nario has now won an insanely hard version of the Vuelta, and a Giro that had the Zoncolan etc and a tough field, is there an argument to make now that he's the best GT rider at present?

[livingminimal]

Yeah but that is more a classic not GC contender type race though this years edition should be exciting. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/il-lombardia-celebrates-110th-edition-with-tougher-new-route/

"More a classic"?

It's a freaking monument, man.

[echappist]

Hey now, hey now -- Il Lombardia is still coming, one of my favorite races of the calendar. Shame it doesn't have the pull that it used to.

not to mention the best stage race of the year, Eneco. They have stages with Flemmish cobbles and Walloon hills. What more could one want in a stage race (other than HC climbs).

[harlond]

Nario has now won an insanely hard version of the Vuelta, and a Giro that had the Zoncolan etc and a tough field, is there an argument to make now that he's the best GT rider at present?Not until he beats Froome in the Tour, IMHO. And there's still Nibali to consider.

[72gmc]

The Tour is like a Disney cruise vs a real vacation.

It's the biggest, most groomed, at times most contrived and/or pre-ordained GT by far. It is designed to be a marketing spectacle with a race in the middle.

Not sure there is a top all-around GT guy right now. Pretty sure the Tour isn't definitive.

[harlond]

The Tour is like a Disney cruise vs a real vacation.

It's the biggest, most groomed, at times most contrived and/or pre-ordained GT by far. It is designed to be a marketing spectacle with a race in the middle.

Not sure there is a top all-around GT guy right now. Pretty sure the Tour isn't definitive.Strong field, though, the best should be able win there.

[Lovetoclimb]

Nario has now won an insanely hard version of the Vuelta, and a Giro that had the Zoncolan etc and a tough field, is there an argument to make now that he's the best GT rider at present?

I would say with how sad he performed in that final TT he is not a well rounded GC racer. He is an exceptional climber who can pull a TT or a good descent out at times but really if the parcours do not favor true climbers he will never win. To his credit he is learning how to race better and better as evidenced by catching Sky sleeping and ultimately securing the race win on that "transition" stage. But I give Contador equal or more credit for that as well as his ability to put Chaves on the ropes by putting in a strong TT. This Vuelta definitely had good and deep competition but favored the pure climbers no doubt.

[MattTuck]

not to mention the best stage race of the year, Eneco. They have stages with Flemmish cobbles and Walloon hills. What more could one want in a stage race (other than HC climbs).

Nario has now won an insanely hard version of the Vuelta, and a Giro that had the Zoncolan etc and a tough field, is there an argument to make now that he's the best GT rider at present?

I'm not even sure what it means to be a Grand Tour rider... Nairo really excels on the steep climbs, and he brought a very strong team to the Vuelta. I suspect that if Froome had brought a stronger team and not lost Kwiatkowski, he'd have won this Vuelta. So, right there one has to wonder if you can separate a GT rider from his team when doing such thought experiments.

I personally think the Grand Tours have over emphasized climbing. I'd like to see fewer mountain days, with perhaps only 1 or 2 mountain top finishes, and more (not necessarily longer) ITT stages. An even handed, but well balanced course that lets the riders make the race with their decisions rather than trying to construct a course to make the race. And that would reward the most well rounded rider.

I think it would be awesome for the TDF to have an ITT that includes a handful of the Paris-Roubaix cobbled sectors, and then ends on the velodrome... I think that would make for an exciting day of racing and add some dimension to the types of riders who could be competitive.

That said, this doesn't seem to be in the cards, and so we'll continue to see Quintana near the top of GTs for a while.

[Stephen2014]

I wish the GC riders would race the last stage on these tours. What should be a rip roaring battle between the top few is just a bland parade that makes it a waste of time for viewers.

A fixed gear Time Trial stage somewhere amongst the stages would be nice, in honour of how the tdf etc. was in the begining. I heard about how someone rode a Giro tt with a fixed gear bike in recent times - but the uci realized here is something we forgot to ruin...so they banned fixed gear.

[vertebraille]

I wish the GC riders would race the last stage on these tours. What should be a rip roaring battle between the top few is just a bland parade that makes it a waste of time for viewers.

A fixed gear Time Trial stage somewhere amongst the stages would be nice, in honour of how the tdf etc. was in the begining. I heard about how someone rode a Giro tt with a fixed gear bike in recent times - but the uci realized here is something we forgot to ruin...so they banned fixed gear.

Ha, this would be great! A definite way to shake up the standings...

[guido]

I have to say that even as someone who is not a fan of Froome, his applauding Quintana at the finish yesterday was a class act. It would have been easy to be frustrated at the end of a long race at the end of a long season. But instead he gave credit where credit is due. Chapeau!

[kramnnim]

I wonder if Froome would have been able to drop Quintana had he just slowly and steadily upper his power (rather than doing all those short, hard digs).

[Stephen2014]

Ha, this would be great! A definite way to shake up the standings...

This is what I was trying to remember:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/giro05/tech/?id=wilier

[ptourkin]

I have to say that even as someone who is not a fan of Froome, his applauding Quintana at the finish yesterday was a class act. It would have been easy to be frustrated at the end of a long race at the end of a long season. But instead he gave credit where credit is due. Chapeau!

Sean Kelly just said that was bad form on Quintana's part after sitting on the wheel all day. Quintana did apologize in a way and said it was a spur of the moment decision.

[rePhil]

Cool stage 20 viewpoint from OBE. Interesting to listen to their tactics and watch it unfold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOQ2Dc9wIds

[72gmc]

That said, this doesn't seem to be in the cards, and so we'll continue to see Quintana near the top of GTs for a while.

... and Froome. They tailored courses to Anquetil, Indurain, Armstrong among others. As you say they need to work on rewarding all rounders but it's not just Q who benefits from climbing bias. They're certainly helping Sky look good.

[harlond]

Sean Kelly just said that was bad form on Quintana's part after sitting on the wheel all day. Quintana did apologize in a way and said it was a spur of the moment decision.
I don't know, Froome kept attacking even when there was only a few hundred meters left and no way to gain any real time. Do that enough and you're asking the other guy to counter, seems to me.

[ptourkin]

I don't know, Froome kept attacking even when there was only a few hundred meters left and no way to gain any real time. Do that enough and you're asking the other guy to counter, seems to me.

Some ado about not much, in the end. They were riding along and chatting before the circuits today. They seem fine with it. Kirby asked Kelly his opinion and it was his job to express one.

[Ray]

I've never been a Froome fan, but he's won me over a bit this year. Between his attacks at the Tour (at the start of the descent - going clear with Sagan), the way he fought for the Vuelta despite not having his best team there, and clapping for Quintana at the end of Stage 20 were all signs of a class rider IMHO. And I think he was the strongest rider in the Vuelta despite losing it fair and square. He lost it on a day where his team got totally caught out tactically and he lost two and a half minutes that he couldn't cover on his own.

Movistar was definitely the stronger team in this race (as was Orica) and putting Froome against the ropes in that one stage was enough. Nairo deserved it, but as an individual rider, I think Froome was still the strongest in the race. Just confirms again for those who don't understand it that cycling really is a team sport. I probably spend more time explaining that to non-cycling fans than anything else about the sport - you just don't get it unless you've ridden enough to know how much easier it is to draft than to pull and watched enough racing to see plenty of examples of it...

Overall a very entertaining Vuelta, unlike the Tour...

-Ray

[guido]

I did think it was rather petty for Movistar not to help Contador catch Chaves. It was Contador's move that insured that Quintana got the win.

[ultraman6970]

Guido, the problem is that each team has their own agenda. Contador was saying that he wanted to win and nothing less than that meant nothing to him, now happens that he wanted the podium anyways. So who can understand him?

THe other situation is that if you want something just go for it, you cant rely in others. If chaves went contador should have followed, sure Froome should have chased them at some point or another, quintana had enough time to just sit there and let everybody go but Froome.

IMO Contador screwed up, his fault. Good for orica, they wanted the podium more than anybody apparently and since they were off already they lose nothing trying. But contador should have followed, or at least kept them close, that's 101 stage racing and contador sure knows that.

[Mr. Pink]

Please, please tell me that this production company will be bringing me the Giro next year on my big screen. Helicopter views of Tuscany and the Dolomites will be delicious.

[ultraman6970]

Italian TV production in general is cheap... spain production is a lot better.

[livingminimal]

Italian TV production in general is cheap... spain production is a lot better.

ASO standards of quality vs RCS ATMO

[Ray]

I did think it was rather petty for Movistar not to help Contador catch Chaves. It was Contador's move that insured that Quintana got the win.

At the point they'd have had to start working for Contador, they were still concerned with being able to help Nairo contain Froome if Froome had been on a good enough day to be able to take some time out of Nairo. Didn't turn out that way and, in retrospect, Movistar could have chased a bit for Contador, but when it might have mattered, it wasn't even on their radar I'd be willing to bet. Contador didn't attack for Nairo - he did it for himself. Movistar and Nairo was just good enough to get in that move and Valverde did an amazing job of keeping Froome out of range of both the break and his team-mates who were stuck behind him. They cooperate when it's in everyone's interest to cooperate, but it wasn't in Movistar's interest to help Contador on Saturday...

-Ray

[livingminimal]

Lots of interesting perspective back to my question posed regarding NQ's rank among current GC contenders.

I think things are so specialized these days (these days as in like, the last 20 years), I think which race we're talking about and its resulting parcours is maybe a better way to think about who the best are, but there is certainly a group of 4-5 that are all equally capable of winning a GT if the parcours suits them.
Froome
NQ
Nibali
Contador (though this might be fading)

Fifth is probably a rotating cast of people. Could Bauke Mollema win under the right conditions? Perhaps. Allaphillipe? Maybe. Dumoloin? Kruisjwijk? Chaves? Hard to say. I think a lot of folks thought Rui Costa might break out of that stage hunting/one-week vibe he held so hard five years ago, but never really happened. Same for Gesink. I think we can safely rule out any American winning a GT for awhile unless Adrien Costa hyper-develops into a contender in the next 3-4 years.

[denapista]

I did think it was rather petty for Movistar not to help Contador catch Chaves. It was Contador's move that insured that Quintana got the win.

Movistar wasn't there to help Contador... What team in their right mind would help on the most pivotal stage of the race? If Movistar chased Chavez down, they would have weakened themselves, allowing Sky to pull Froome over the top and possibly win the race. Contador should have prepped his own team, to chase down Chavez. I mean, he did have a team right? If not, then it's on the team to provide adequate support for your GC rider. No way Contador was going to expect Movistar to blow their matches to help him and not Nairo. That's insane! contador got duped. There's no friendship in battle and war. In New York they call that "Got rocked to sleep!". They acted like they were his friend and when it counted they attacked. Perfect example of this, was in that series "The night of" That guy rocked Naz to sleep, then threw hot water and baby oil on him. It's a prison phrase. Guys rock you to sleep in Rikers, then betray you in the end.