Thinking about training for next year

[stephenmarklay]

I would like to get fit for next year. I am interested in doing more sportive rides traveling to participate in events etc. I like the 100 mile (give or take) and would love over time to be able to compete in competitive events even if I am not winning anything :)

I will use trainer road. My question is this. The trainer road guys seem to push the intensity stuff but I am leaning toward building a big aerobic base with traditional base training.

Over the last 2 months I have ridden more than usual (upwards of 20 hours a week) and have started to see my riding getting faster at the same level of effort. Rides that I was doing at 16-17mph are now 17-18mph or more. However, I still feel like I can make more aerobic improvement since I have really only ridden consistent for about 8 weeks.

Also, right now I am without a power meter. With base training that seems less important so can I get away with HR? Trainer road has a virtual power option with my KK trainer but I really like to ride my rollers for long hours.

Thoughts?

[ripvanrando]

Some will say base miles are junk and that time crunched athletes need high intensity intervals morning, noon, and night.

With 20 hours per week and if you just enjoy riding, check out the Maffetone formula that uses heart rate. It works....for me, it brings be to high Z2. Might make for a fun fall cycling season and then add intervals in winter...?

https://philmaffetone.com/

http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

[topflightpro]

If you can do 20 hours of base a week, then that is great. But, that type of effort can really wear you down.

The latest trend is to focus on Sweet Spot Intervals. These are generally 20 min. efforts at 88-92 percent.

[ripvanrando]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4621419/

Personally, sweet spot training (tempo) does nothing positive for my fitness.

But training response is quite individual. I've never found any scientific studies supporting sweet spot training.

High intensity intervals help me a lot but I have to be careful not to do them too often. I'm pretty fit for an old fart....I do five times 4-6 minutes at 120% FTP or better and then rest and then do another set. I do this about once per week and only if I am rested. If I lack time and can't do volume, I make sure I do my intervals as they are that important especially as we age. I just don't find any value in tempo rides. YMMV

[stephenmarklay]

If you can do 20 hours of base a week, then that is great. But, that type of effort can really wear you down.

The latest trend is to focus on Sweet Spot Intervals. These are generally 20 min. efforts at 88-92 percent.


For sure it can be way to much for trainer riding. I find trainer riding to be very efficient. That is with no down hills, no coasting etc I can get away with less time. As a guess say 25-30% less. So instead of a 4 hour ride I will do a 3 hour ride. 4 hours is a practical trainer max and I won’t do many of those and only i the last base weeks. I have down 5 hour trainer rides and I won’t repeat that.

[stephenmarklay]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4621419/

Personally, sweet spot training (tempo) does nothing positive for my fitness.

But training response is quite individual. I've never found any scientific studies supporting sweet spot training.

High intensity intervals help me a lot but I have to be careful not to do them too often. I'm pretty fit for an old fart....I do five times 4-6 minutes at 120% FTP or better and then rest and then do another set. I do this about once per week and only if I am rested. If I lack time and can't do volume, I make sure I do my intervals as they are that important especially as we age. I just don't find any value in tempo rides. YMMV

I have read a lot about polarized training and that is kind of my plan or at least my thought process.

[ripvanrando]

I have read a lot about polarized training and that is kind of my plan or at least my thought process.

It is easy to implement and is easy on your body but you need time to do the volume. I have that time. Others who are short on time have to put intensity in there. One caveat is that the "easy" rides are not exactly easy. It should be based off your FTP but absent a power meter, HR works pretty good. If you can't speak comfortably for say 20-30 seconds, you're going too hard. The tendency is probably to go to easy. I do these rides at 190-210 watts off an FTP of 273 and do my intervals at 350 watts or so. The beauty of a power meter is the ability to analyse improvements using a variety of software tools. You could also just test yourself of STRAVA segments. If polarized does not help in say 8 weeks, give another approach a try. I got measurable results in 6 weeks....good luck.

Didn't Eddy Merckx say, "Ride lots"

[carpediemracing]

I would like to get fit for next year. I am interested in doing more sportive rides traveling to participate in events etc. I like the 100 mile (give or take) and would love over time to be able to compete in competitive events even if I am not winning anything :)

I will use trainer road. My question is this. The trainer road guys seem to push the intensity stuff but I am leaning toward building a big aerobic base with traditional base training.

Over the last 2 months I have ridden more than usual (upwards of 20 hours a week) and have started to see my riding getting faster at the same level of effort. Rides that I was doing at 16-17mph are now 17-18mph or more. However, I still feel like I can make more aerobic improvement since I have really only ridden consistent for about 8 weeks.

Also, right now I am without a power meter. With base training that seems less important so can I get away with HR? Trainer road has a virtual power option with my KK trainer but I really like to ride my rollers for long hours.

Thoughts?

If you're doing rides with other people one way of improving is to learn/practice drafting better. It's an exponential return. On solo rides I rarely avg more than 17 mph for an hour but at the same power (175w avg) I have avg 27.5 mph in a race (for about 40 min). On longer solo rides I avg more like 12-14 mph.

I imagine that you'll find some benefit to doing moderately long efforts, 3-5 minutes. Those short, half mile hills that you may encounter can be quickly knocked off if you can make those efforts and then recover for the next one. Of course if you're seeing 10 mile climbs that's a different story. Around here a super long climb is a mile so being able to go hard 3-5 minutes at a time is useful.

I have a KK Road Machine. The power curve seems very consistent. Training with power is much more immediate than with HR. With power you're training based on what's happening. With HR you're training based on time-lapsed reactions to what's happening. Sprints are extreme but based on HR I might start a sprint at 135 bpm, do a 1200w jump, do 900w for 15-18 seconds, and my HR will be 156 or 157bpm at the end of it. Based on a max of about 170 bpm that's not very high. If you were watching me though you'd realized that I was absolutely maxed out. HR lags.

Training wise I have no advice as I'm a pretty unscientific person when it comes to training. I had incredible success raising my FTP doing VO2Max intervals (measured FTP 208w, target power was 218-248w, intervals were 5-8 minutes long, 3-4 intervals per day, 2 days a week, 3 weeks one, 1 week off, 8 weeks total).

Finally, if you're not lean, get lean. If you are lean then that's great. I'm not lean and getting lean is huge for me, both in effort and in how it affects my riding.

[stephenmarklay]

If you're doing rides with other people one way of improving is to learn/practice drafting better. It's an exponential return. On solo rides I rarely avg more than 17 mph for an hour but at the same power (175w avg) I have avg 27.5 mph in a race (for about 40 min). On longer solo rides I avg more like 12-14 mph.

I imagine that you'll find some benefit to doing moderately long efforts, 3-5 minutes. Those short, half mile hills that you may encounter can be quickly knocked off if you can make those efforts and then recover for the next one. Of course if you're seeing 10 mile climbs that's a different story. Around here a super long climb is a mile so being able to go hard 3-5 minutes at a time is useful.

I have a KK Road Machine. The power curve seems very consistent. Training with power is much more immediate than with HR. With power you're training based on what's happening. With HR you're training based on time-lapsed reactions to what's happening. Sprints are extreme but based on HR I might start a sprint at 135 bpm, do a 1200w jump, do 900w for 15-18 seconds, and my HR will be 156 or 157bpm at the end of it. Based on a max of about 170 bpm that's not very high. If you were watching me though you'd realized that I was absolutely maxed out. HR lags.

Training wise I have no advice as I'm a pretty unscientific person when it comes to training. I had incredible success raising my FTP doing VO2Max intervals (measured FTP 208w, target power was 218-248w, intervals were 5-8 minutes long, 3-4 intervals per day, 2 days a week, 3 weeks one, 1 week off, 8 weeks total).

Finally, if you're not lean, get lean. If you are lean then that's great. I'm not lean and getting lean is huge for me, both in effort and in how it affects my riding.


I have read other posts about your racing savvy and I was really impressed. Especially how well you used your strengths and covered your weaknesses.

I am not really light. I did race about 175 last and I am all of 185-190 now. But at about 6’0” with a muscular build I am pretty lean. I graduated high school like 30 years ago at 190 so being 165 (my lightest) may not be best for power. I feel like I would race better not worrying too much about weight and more on fitness. If I can get to 180 I could have a good mix of power and power to weight for my body.

However, it may be more important to be light this go around as I am betting the longer and potentially hilly events I want to do will have a bigger toll on my energy stores at my weight.

BTW I can’t ride at 12mph I would fall over :)

[ripvanrando]

I lost my train of thought earlier and wanted to caution on using HR when setting zones. It works for some/most??. According to the formulas I don't go into Z3 until 134 BPM but in reality, Z3 starts way lower for me. 102-112 BPM gets me around 190-210 watts (upper Z2) and tempo starts at 211 watts for me. Without a PM, I prefer perceived exertion because I know my heart uses far fewer beats per minute than the models predict.

[Ti Designs]

I've never found any scientific studies supporting sweet spot training.

Yeh, there is that...

Sweet spot training is the easy sell. If you took a person who knew nothing about fitness, and explained both the polarized method and the sweet spot method, they would go for the sweet spot method almost 100% of the time. Combine that with the Woody Allen line about cycling coaches - "those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym" and you have a whole lot of people training ineffectively, 'cause the people talking about how to get fit haven't figured out how to make it work themselves.

If it were me, I would spend some time to figure out what type of work I responded to, and I would look at my goals for the coming season, and I would put together a plan based on that.

[stephenmarklay]

Yeh, there is that...

Sweet spot training is the easy sell. If you took a person who knew nothing about fitness, and explained both the polarized method and the sweet spot method, they would go for the sweet spot method almost 100% of the time. Combine that with the Woody Allen line about cycling coaches - "those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym" and you have a whole lot of people training ineffectively, 'cause the people talking about how to get fit haven't figured out how to make it work themselves.

If it were me, I would spend some time to figure out what type of work I responded to, and I would look at my goals for the coming season, and I would put together a plan based on that.

It seems like I do pretty well on volume, hill intervals and sprints without getting too fancy. But your right. I have even heard of people doing DNA tests for genetic predispositions. I trained almost all endurance the last time I really trained and I could race with that.

Training to my strength literally makes me do some grinding hills too. The shorter and rolling hills play to my favor as I can mash a big gear and go.

I think the trainer road folks have a cool product but I also think the heavy emphasis on sweet spot is short sited and really about making a marketable product.

[leftyfreak]

Yeh, there is that...

Sweet spot training is the easy sell. If you took a person who knew nothing about fitness, and explained both the polarized method and the sweet spot method, they would go for the sweet spot method almost 100% of the time. Combine that with the Woody Allen line about cycling coaches - "those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym" and you have a whole lot of people training ineffectively, 'cause the people talking about how to get fit haven't figured out how to make it work themselves.

If it were me, I would spend some time to figure out what type of work I responded to, and I would look at my goals for the coming season, and I would put together a plan based on that.

How do you help riders figure out what they respond to? Have you developed a system of training test blocks or something similar? I think most of us would be hard pressed to determine what we respond in our training without some guidance...

[Chris]

Yeh, there is that...

Sweet spot training is the easy sell. If you took a person who knew nothing about fitness, and explained both the polarized method and the sweet spot method, they would go for the sweet spot method almost 100% of the time. Combine that with the Woody Allen line about cycling coaches - "those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym" and you have a whole lot of people training ineffectively, 'cause the people talking about how to get fit haven't figured out how to make it work themselves.

If it were me, I would spend some time to figure out what type of work I responded to, and I would look at my goals for the coming season, and I would put together a plan based on that.

This. I can do long rides and sweet spot until the cows come home and continue to finish about where I always have in races. I'm drawn to that training because that's the type of effort that I don't mind. I think that (not being a coach) one of the ways to know if a type of training will be beneficial is if you don't like doing it. I'm tall and lean. I can go all day, but I get 4th in a 3 up sprint. However, when I train more red zone stuff and sprints (my weaknesses), I tend to do better than when I settle into what's comfortable. Just my experience.

[Ti Designs]

How do you help riders figure out what they respond to? Have you developed a system of training test blocks or something similar? I think most of us would be hard pressed to determine what we respond in our training without some guidance...

You came to me off injury, the first steps were all technique and low intensity. Oddly, you became faster than the people you ride with - I hate when that happens...

With my racers I monitor their workloads and look for indications in how they react to conditions. I've noticed the natural sprinters are on/off switches, they're not good at regulating efforts. I've always pushed short intervals for them with a focus on recovery times. Hill climbers are a different breed, they require a long off season to build everything they need to sustain the effort. The early season for them is a combination of long base mileage to build capillary along with weight training to give the muscles fatigue resistance. How that program gets altered is based on their recovery from the workouts.

I see the polarized method as being well planned out 'cause lots of stress cycles at a lower intensity get the body ready for higher intensity. I've been coaching for a while, have had lots of riders doing lots of base mileage, very few of them sat out parts of the season due to injury from ramping up the intensity too quickly. That said, some of my event specific training starts looking a lot like a sweet spot program...

Sadly, I don't have answers for individuals. Even in lab conditions, finding out that you're a non responder takes weeks. My best suggestion is start racing as a junior.

[rando]

If riding 20 hour weeks for two months straight with no plans to slow down doesn't get you fit...

DNA testing
EMS machine
Blood lactate tester
A deep dive down the wattage rabbit hole
leg compression pumps
pseudo-science diets
cupping
copper bracelets
snake oil
PED's
low-T therapy
non-sport specific extreme crossfit gym membership


Or any of the other golf, I mean cycling, aids I've missed that are on the market right now might be the final step to achieving your legacy. This is assuming you have bleeding edge carbon wheels, ceramic bearings w/oil baths in every orifice of your bike, tires that VELO has determined through rigorous scientific testing to be the fastest, aero bars, the lowest friction chain lube, wind tunnel testing of your position, a backlog of training in heat and elevation, updated garmin firmware for the most gratuitous training metric equations, a conspiratorial source for the latest and greatest in training/recovery drink powders, military grade ti bolts, and whatever other creative ways to create mental weakness the outdoors industry can sell you on.

[benb]

One thing is for sure if you can train 20 hours a week consistently for 8 weeks you are very very far from a time crunched cyclist and have no need to follow that kind of plan. Congrats on being independently wealthy/retired/whatever!

I was pretty happy to do 10 hours last week within family obligations. And I was on vacation.

[rando]

How do you help riders figure out what they respond to? Have you developed a system of training test blocks or something similar? I think most of us would be hard pressed to determine what we respond in our training without some guidance...

That is an excellent question. What any one person gains the most benefit from, or responds to, changes quite rapidly at times and goes stagnant during others. The best advise is to listen to your body and put a lot of thought into your daily routine. Well supported athletes undergo constant testing and have their routine determined first thing in the day by a battery of experts.

In other words, trial and error is the best way to see what is manageable while being constructive for your schedule and abilities. Repeatability should play a big part in your yearly training if you are serious. That means the same workout at the same time every year with some tweaking. A good coach can set you on the right path if not correct a lot of issues before you run into them.

[Ti Designs]

I'm tall and lean. I can go all day, but I get 4th in a 3 up sprint. However, when I train more red zone stuff and sprints (my weaknesses), I tend to do better than when I settle into what's comfortable. Just my experience.

And then there's this... People like to train their strength. If you're at all competitive, you have to cover you weaknesses. As a junior I was a pure climber, couldn't win a sprint to save my life. Never getting on the podium one year pissed me off, so I got a track bike and solved that problem.

[carpediemracing]

I am not really light. I did race about 175 last and I am all of 185-190 now. But at about 6’0” with a muscular build I am pretty lean. I graduated high school like 30 years ago at 190 so being 165 (my lightest) may not be best for power. I feel like I would race better not worrying too much about weight and more on fitness. If I can get to 180 I could have a good mix of power and power to weight for my body.

However, it may be more important to be light this go around as I am betting the longer and potentially hilly events I want to do will have a bigger toll on my energy stores at my weight.

BTW I can’t ride at 12mph I would fall over :)

You sound pretty lean. I lost about 40 lbs one year, from 2009 to 2010, but I found that in normal situations (group rides with hills) I got shelled almost as easily. Maybe it was the second hill, not the first, or 2/3 up the hill and not 1/3, but even losing almost 1/4 of my body weight wasn't enough to radically change my w/kg.

For long rides little efficiencies become significant. For flatter stuff aero will be significant, meaning your position on the bike. That will take some thought but a good position on the bike can give you good aero without compromising comfort or efficiency.

For descents and any flat corners you'll want to be proficient at cornering, bonus being that being better at cornering can keep you upright when traveling at speed on unknown roads. Cornering is free from a training perspective and you can practice it off the bike (driving, shopping with a shopping cart, just walking in the house).

[stephenmarklay]

One thing is for sure if you can train 20 hours a week consistently for 8 weeks you are very very far from a time crunched cyclist and have no need to follow that kind of plan. Congrats on being independently wealthy/retired/whatever!

I was pretty happy to do 10 hours last week within family obligations. And I was on vacation.

There is certainly some truth in that. However, there was also much desire too. It started as wanting to get back on the bike and committing to riding everyday of the tour. I did it. It was great so I decided to run that out to the end of August. I did that.

But the hidden side is that in July I was on the road at 4:30am and home by 8-8:30 most days. I did go to bed with the kids by about 8:30pm to make it work but I did. Now sunrise is 6:00am so its harder.

I do have a more flexible schedule but that is by design. I am not rich but happy.

[shovelhd]

I see talk about 20 hour weeks and time crunched like they are mutually exclusive. They're not. They have to be properly interrelated to be effective, but they can be very effective together.

Sweet spot is like candy. Most fit cyclists can do an hour of sweet spot and it will feel like a no chain day. It's fine for getting strong. It will not get you fast. It all depends what you want out of it. Most cyclists want it all. If you want it all, you have to train right. This usually means compromises that a lot of cyclists aren't willing to make.

[superbowlpats]

There's some good stuff here

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Getting_faster_with_age_3693.html

click on the links in the article on winter training and normal training. Kevin goes by nslckevin on Slowtwitch. He's one fast dude.

[jlwdm]

?...

BTW I can’t ride at 12mph I would fall over :)

Then you have a problem. Davis Phinney in his prime promoted active rest days at 12 mph or so.

20 hours a week is a lot of riding, but you will not improve as much as you could if you don't have a plan. Whether you use a power meter or heart rate monitor you need a plan with hard days, easy days and proper rest. Not riding at an easy effort is a big problem for many recreational cyclists. The pros are much better at it.

My heart rate does not fit in the standard age ranges so I did testing to set my zones.

Jeff

[wallymann]

I...I feel like I would race better not worrying too much about weight and more on fitness.

big mistake. carpe is spot on, losing even 5# can make a world of difference for a given level of fitness. 10# is massive.

[stephenmarklay]

Then you have a problem. Davis Phinney in his prime promoted active rest days at 12 mph or so.

20 hours a week is a lot of riding, but you will not improve as much as you could if you don't have a plan. Whether you use a power meter or heart rate monitor you need a plan with hard days, easy days and proper rest. Not riding at an easy effort is a big problem for many recreational cyclists. The pros are much better at it.

My heart rate does not fit in the standard age ranges so I did testing to set my zones.

Jeff

Really? 12mph is so crazy. Having said that the last time I was in racing shape I rode my exercise bike for a couple of months in late summer and I bet I never even hit Zone 2. Then my base was about 20 weeks of zone 2. I guess I was going 12mph after all. I could do that inside but not outside unless it was on my commuter bike.

Your absolutely right about my 20 hours not be as effective or efficient as it could be. When I set out to do it I knew I was not training. I can say I became more durable. I had rough days the first month. I remember a couple where 15mph was all I had. That passed. For instance I rode about 18.5 for 45 miles on Monday. Its pretty hilly so it was a bit of work. Tuesday I rode 80 miles at about 19mph on a flat(er) route. I was still pretty spent so I went back to 45 miles Wed and felt pretty tired. I was really surprised when I saw my average was 18.5 again. I could have done 18+ when I started in July but no way 3 days in a row.

Looking at power meters I think I will be able to afford one for this winter and you guys have helped me. I am going to do more of a traditional base routine to start.

[stephenmarklay]

big mistake. carpe is spot on, losing even 5# can make a world of difference for a given level of fitness. 10# is massive.

I think that is too simple of a conclusion. Sure if you keep your power constant and lose weight you are ahead of the game. If you lose weight and hence power you may end up slower.

[stephenmarklay]

There's some good stuff here

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Getting_faster_with_age_3693.html

click on the links in the article on winter training and normal training. Kevin goes by nslckevin on Slowtwitch. He's one fast dude.


Thank you. I will read this.


EDIT: I read it. He really likes temp riding. I would assume he has a really big base and without doing really long trainer rides would see no big improvement. I on the other hand don’t have years of base training.

I really agree with some of his thoughts however. Consistency is king for me too. I also think trying to kill it in training (especially on a trainer) is not for me. I much prefer to leave some for tomorrow. I will think about what he said some more.

[carpediemracing]

EDIT: I read it. He really likes temp riding. I would assume he has a really big base and without doing really long trainer rides would see no big improvement. I on the other hand don’t have years of base training.

I really agree with some of his thoughts however. Consistency is king for me too. I also think trying to kill it in training (especially on a trainer) is not for me. I much prefer to leave some for tomorrow. I will think about what he said some more.

Thoughts on those two statements.

Not having a lot of base miles overall I think makes it tougher. I watched some racers that simply don't look natural on the bike, don't look "right" somehow, but they were stronger than me so I sort of let it slide. Then recently I learned that one of those guys had just started riding a year or two before I first noticed him. Their pedaling didn't look natural, didn't look relaxed. You could see tension in their posture. I have to believe that that kind of tension/rigidness would take something away from their performance. As strong as these guys were they probably could have been better. Incidentally most of those guys quit after 5-8 years, including the guy that pops to mind right away.

On the other hand there are those that I've been racing with for over 30 years. They look absolutely fluid smooth on the bike. It looks effortless, fluent. Watch a master violinist or blackbelt and you don't have to be learned in their skills to understand they're good. Things just flow for them. I rode for the first time with one guy, an internet antagonist if I ever knew one, who looked like perfection on the bike.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2010/08/training-class.html

I don't know how you'd get that quicker but I think that "years of base" thing is significant. (Assuming good years of base, not years of bad habit reinforcement!)

On intervals - I did two winters of intervals religiously. I hated it, I hated everything about them, and even now I find it very hard, nigh impossible, to motivate to do intervals. I've completed 1.5 programs of intervals (3+3 weeks, then just 3 weeks after which I stopped) in about 32 years, and I did them in 2015 and 2016. Don't go too bananas on the trainer. Ride outside, get that base. Maybe you'll need to get a mountain bike (no flats, smooth ride, no worries about road hazards). Last I trained outside for the winter it was on my mountain bike (as is, not set up for the road except position). It worked really well. Just make sure you have the same crank length on both bikes.

[weisan]

If riding 20 hour weeks for two months straight with no plans to slow down doesn't get you fit...

DNA testing
EMS machine
Blood lactate tester
A deep dive down the wattage rabbit hole
leg compression pumps
pseudo-science diets
cupping
copper bracelets
snake oil
PED's
low-T therapy
non-sport specific extreme crossfit gym membership



rando pal, you forgot Electric Muscle Stimulation. It works for Bruce Lee so I am sure....

https://holisticevolve.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/stimrx15r-4.jpg?w=580&h=0&crop=1

This thread reinforces why I don't "train"....I am happy just riding my bike. :p

[ripvanrando]

rando pal, you forgot Electric Muscle Stimulation. It works for Bruce Lee so I am sure....

https://holisticevolve.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/stimrx15r-4.jpg?w=580&h=0&crop=1

This thread reinforces why I don't "train"....I am happy just riding my bike. :p

I only hate riding my bike every fifth session.

Joe Friel's latest book about racing after 50 makes a compelling case for intervals and high intensity in general for geriatrics.

[ripvanrando]

There's some good stuff here

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Getting_faster_with_age_3693.html

click on the links in the article on winter training and normal training. Kevin goes by nslckevin on Slowtwitch. He's one fast dude.

Thanks for the link. I read his interview, posts, and looked at his STRAVA rides.

His trainer routine is 2x20 minutes at about 300 watts but when one can hold 400 watts for 20 minutes.......and break 50 minutes for a 40 km.....I guess these trainer efforts might almost be tempo.

[54ny77]

ya think?

:p

that's more power than all the wattage in our kitchen lighting!

Thanks for the link. I read his interview, posts, and looked at his STRAVA rides.

His trainer routine is 2x20 minutes at about 300 watts but when one can hold 400 watts for 20 minutes.......and break 50 minutes for a 40 km.....I guess these trainer efforts might almost be tempo.

[endosch2]

I am a huge believer in trainerroad, there are numerous success stories if you follow their plans. There is a bible of discussion and info on slowtwitch if you look there.

My advice would be to find a way to measure power via a PM or a smart trainer. Using virtual power is just not consistent enough.

My cyclops fluid 2 trainer changes resistance by about 20 pct as it gets warmed up.

[endosch2]

If riding 20 hour weeks for two months straight with no plans to slow down doesn't get you fit...

DNA testing
EMS machine
Blood lactate tester
A deep dive down the wattage rabbit hole
leg compression pumps
pseudo-science diets
cupping
copper bracelets
snake oil
PED's
low-T therapy
non-sport specific extreme crossfit gym membership


Or any of the other golf, I mean cycling, aids I've missed that are on the market right now might be the final step to achieving your legacy. This is assuming you have bleeding edge carbon wheels, ceramic bearings w/oil baths in every orifice of your bike, tires that VELO has determined through rigorous scientific testing to be the fastest, aero bars, the lowest friction chain lube, wind tunnel testing of your position, a backlog of training in heat and elevation, updated garmin firmware for the most gratuitous training metric equations, a conspiratorial source for the latest and greatest in training/recovery drink powders, military grade ti bolts, and whatever other creative ways to create mental weakness the outdoors industry can sell you on.

Sounds like Grant Peterson has sold you on all things retrogrouchy.

[rando]

If riding 20 hour weeks for two months straight with no plans to slow down doesn't get you fit...

DNA testing
EMS machine
Blood lactate tester
A deep dive down the wattage rabbit hole
leg compression pumps


rando pal, you forgot Electric Muscle Stimulation.

Nope, didn't forget it.

I know A and C well enough to understand how selfless they are being to gently put the right tools into this guy's head. Especially in the face of accounts of senior citizens discovering the secret to beating national level racers and long standing records across all age categories. F' riel, they aren't eating oats out of the same trough as the young ponies and finally discovering the mental keys to unlocking their true capabilities.

[stephenmarklay]

Thoughts on those two statements.

Not having a lot of base miles overall I think makes it tougher. I watched some racers that simply don't look natural on the bike, don't look "right" somehow, but they were stronger than me so I sort of let it slide. Then recently I learned that one of those guys had just started riding a year or two before I first noticed him. Their pedaling didn't look natural, didn't look relaxed. You could see tension in their posture. I have to believe that that kind of tension/rigidness would take something away from their performance. As strong as these guys were they probably could have been better. Incidentally most of those guys quit after 5-8 years, including the guy that pops to mind right away.

On the other hand there are those that I've been racing with for over 30 years. They look absolutely fluid smooth on the bike. It looks effortless, fluent. Watch a master violinist or blackbelt and you don't have to be learned in their skills to understand they're good. Things just flow for them. I rode for the first time with one guy, an internet antagonist if I ever knew one, who looked like perfection on the bike.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2010/08/training-class.html

I don't know how you'd get that quicker but I think that "years of base" thing is significant. (Assuming good years of base, not years of bad habit reinforcement!)

On intervals - I did two winters of intervals religiously. I hated it, I hated everything about them, and even now I find it very hard, nigh impossible, to motivate to do intervals. I've completed 1.5 programs of intervals (3+3 weeks, then just 3 weeks after which I stopped) in about 32 years, and I did them in 2015 and 2016. Don't go too bananas on the trainer. Ride outside, get that base. Maybe you'll need to get a mountain bike (no flats, smooth ride, no worries about road hazards). Last I trained outside for the winter it was on my mountain bike (as is, not set up for the road except position). It worked really well. Just make sure you have the same crank length on both bikes.


Thanks for this. The only intervals I care to do inside are 10-30 second all out efforts and set of tabata 8x20 with 10 seconds rest. I have a spin bike and I will do those in the garage in jeans and a t-shirt. It takes the stress and formality out of it. The Tabata are still hard but over really fast.

I can do a less structured interval session like a sufferfest video that is not just 10 x10 of 1:00 but rather more like a race scenero. Robbie Ventura has the real rides that are doable for me also and the Criterium one is ok if I am in shape. Outside I have a couple of 5 min hills that I do repeats on and that seems to be effective for me and not mentally horrible.

For me, it’s at least 50% mental. So beating myself down with intervals until I fall over is self defeating. I would rather do an interval at 90%, feel strong, finish strong and have a bit of gas at the end. The do or die mentality is not my cup of tea.

[ripvanrando]

I am sure his power meter was not accurate and that anyone trying to follow a national record holder's training plan is on a fool's errand. If you read the treads on ST and look at his data files, it is clear his indoor trainer PM was reading high and his PM on the bike was off. His winter tempo efforts were probably high Z2. He has lots of 4-5 hour rides on both Saturays and Sunday's with TSS scores of only 130-150 meaning very easy rides. Throw a race or hill climb up Diablo here and there and his actual plan looks polArized. He admits not to doing FTP testing more than once or twice per year but looking at his results and data, I'd guess he is making around 390 watts at sea level and his winter tempo efforts were actually in the 270-280 watt range. Lots of bright riders addressed these questions on ST. Another ST member compared his Kurt Kinesis power levels and one of the two is clearly off. Kevin's response was telling. He really does not use power or really care whether the power figures are accurate and in fact, he does not ride by power. I would be very cautious based upon how many times his pm was getting repaired and the whole question of his indoor trainer pm accuracy.

My point is anyone who tries to do 5 tempo rides in a week in addition to long weekend rides better be careful. My CTL was over 300 in July and I'm not sure I would have wanted to take that risk. YMMV.

ya think?

:p

that's more power than all the wattage in our kitchen lighting!

[benb]

OP it sounds like what you really need is a coach.

If you work with a good coach the intervals will end up being more intelligent and progressive.. it keeps them much more interesting and will help answer a lot of these questions and you'll be more confident and sure of yourself.

I'm off the coaching plan now but used a coach for the beginning of the year. I still had to monitor myself but it sure took a lot of the guesswork out of it all and in terms of the "bigger picture" he knew the right thing to do, I just followed directions and it all worked out far better with far less mental effort on my part. (Which is important cause work, family, etc.. use up a lot of the available mental efforts)

I've been trying to improvise the same type of plan myself the rest of the summer.. it's better than what I was doing before working with the coach but not as good as the actual training plan from the coach and it's still more mental work/stress to figure it out. Pretty easy for me to figure out what to do with one week, harder to figure out the right thing to do with 8 weeks or more.

[shovelhd]

Thanks for this. The only intervals I care to do inside are 10-30 second all out efforts and set of tabata 8x20 with 10 seconds rest. I have a spin bike and I will do those in the garage in jeans and a t-shirt. It takes the stress and formality out of it. The Tabata are still hard but over really fast.

I can do a less structured interval session like a sufferfest video that is not just 10 x10 of 1:00 but rather more like a race scenero. Robbie Ventura has the real rides that are doable for me also and the Criterium one is ok if I am in shape. Outside I have a couple of 5 min hills that I do repeats on and that seems to be effective for me and not mentally horrible.

For me, it’s at least 50% mental. So beating myself down with intervals until I fall over is self defeating. I would rather do an interval at 90%, feel strong, finish strong and have a bit of gas at the end. The do or die mentality is not my cup of tea.

If you're not racing to win, then this makes sense. Why kill yourself. On the other hand, if that is your intention, then you might want to rethink your priorities.

[stephenmarklay]

If you're not racing to win, then this makes sense. Why kill yourself. On the other hand, if that is your intention, then you might want to rethink your priorities.

Very true and it also depends on the level of racing. Being fast is pretty relative anyway. Really I am happy doing “events”. I would like to get in shape and do some hard stuff. Not to win really but to be able to do them respectably.

Also, while I don’t like massive intervals indoors does not mean I won’t do them at times :)

[John H.]

I would take 5 tempo rides per week over a month of 300 CTL any time.
High TSS/CTL would beat most down more than tempo (on relatively low TSS).
300 CTL means averaging 4 hour days at .75 IF- so a lot of days higher than 300- TSS- or no rest days.

I am sure his power meter was not accurate and that anyone trying to follow a national record holder's training plan is on a fool's errand. If you read the treads on ST and look at his data files, it is clear his indoor trainer PM was reading high and his PM on the bike was off. His winter tempo efforts were probably high Z2. He has lots of 4-5 hour rides on both Saturays and Sunday's with TSS scores of only 130-150 meaning very easy rides. Throw a race or hill climb up Diablo here and there and his actual plan looks polArized. He admits not to doing FTP testing more than once or twice per year but looking at his results and data, I'd guess he is making around 390 watts at sea level and his winter tempo efforts were actually in the 270-280 watt range. Lots of bright riders addressed these questions on ST. Another ST member compared his Kurt Kinesis power levels and one of the two is clearly off. Kevin's response was telling. He really does not use power or really care whether the power figures are accurate and in fact, he does not ride by power. I would be very cautious based upon how many times his pm was getting repaired and the whole question of his indoor trainer pm accuracy.

My point is anyone who tries to do 5 tempo rides in a week in addition to long weekend rides better be careful. My CTL was over 300 in July and I'm not sure I would have wanted to take that risk. YMMV.

[sacwolf]

I've personally benefited from "fartlek" type training on the bike or essentially interval stuff. Base training is fine from a perspective of early development or winter base miles when weather is limiting. But intensity is what the body will use for the most efficient gains.

We have a rider in our group that transitioned his riding from speed and intervals within a group setting to a randonneur style, riding some 300K and 500K events. These long endurance rides are all at moderate, steady tempo. He is now back into the group rides and he struggles keeping up when the pace pushes 22-24MPH+. He likened it to a lack of power and more quickly fatigues when hammering. If you want more gains, you have to push the limits, even if your goal is succeed at longer 100 miles rides. You'll be better for it when you get back to those 40 mile hammer fests...

[rando]

The first generation of American riders to go over to Europe with any success all had monster sprints in their repertoire. A full year later after riding 200K every day the domestic pros that used to be well off their mark had immensely better fast twitch development. It didn't matter one whit because those guys were finishing minutes behind them now instead of seconds.

Point being, some incomplete rando falling off the pace is hardly a recommendation for an entire training program. Much like that group of pros there are a number of skilled longer distance riders that would crush your local P12 race. Complete riders.

[ripvanrando]

It all depends what the OP wants to achieve. He spoke of sportifs and 100 mile rides and not wanting to do intervals. Is it possible to do any racing without doing intensity work (intervals)

Fartlek is probably the only way to go minus a structure with intervals.

[ripvanrando]

I would take 5 tempo rides per week over a month of 300 CTL any time.
High TSS/CTL would beat most down more than tempo (on relatively low TSS).
300 CTL means averaging 4 hour days at .75 IF- so a lot of days higher than 300- TSS- or no rest days.

He did 5 tempo sessions per week at a stated 85-90% of FTP in addition to the long weekend rides. I find it interested reviewing FIT files of pro riders during TDF because they show relatively low IF (below 0.75 and sometime below 0.7) over the course of a 4-5 hour stage.

300 CTL could also be 12 hour days at an IF of like 0.5.

The Nat TT Champ (Kevin...) already has close to 10,000 miles on the road this year (or more....this is what is on STRAva) and who knows how many hours on the trainer. He might have been doing the workouts at Tempo but I sincerely doubt it and if they were, it is not a training plan that I would ever want to try to do and my points were cautionary. ST forum members who tried it were shelled and these were strong riders.

Do any Coaches advocate five Tempo sessions per week for months?

[dustyrider]

Who has the decoder ring for this thread? Did I miss a sticky? :confused:

[sparky33]

I am a huge believer in trainerroad, there are numerous success stories if you follow their plans. There is a bible of discussion and info on slowtwitch if you look there.



My advice would be to find a way to measure power via a PM or a smart trainer.


I am also seeing improvements with TrainerRoad paired with a Wahoo Kickr smart trainer. Recently I've been working through a low-volume plan for cx - I do most of the workouts in the 242TSS/wk plan. They are challenging but efficient. I balance trainer time with other outdoor riding&recreation because that works for me. Staying in tune with my fatigue and energy level has been important. I plan to use TR a bit for base and build for distance events next year.

The Kickr in erg mode makes it easier because I can focus on cadence, form and breathing since the resistance is set for me automatically. This smart trainer really makes the difference for me in feeling like the workouts are worthwhile. I don't ride rollers anymore. IMO, it was a worthwhile investment...recommended.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[stephenmarklay]

It all depends what the OP wants to achieve. He spoke of sportifs and 100 mile rides and not wanting to do intervals. Is it possible to do any racing without doing intensity work (intervals)

Fartlek is probably the only way to go minus a structure with intervals.

I kind of misspoke or perhaps did not express my intentions well.

I will do intervals for sure. The original question was about how to train for base, volume at lower intensity or sweet spot at lower volume.

However, after I get through base I won’t have big power but I will have a base to build on and then I will do intervals.

Even in base I plan on throwing in some less structured intensity.

[rando]

You can only cut through so much of the misinformation and yet to be derided training theories without having the scraps swept up and proclaimed logical training advice. At it's core the problem here is the amount of high level training regimens being thrown at someone amateurish in principles and devotion. Nobody here can train like a pro. Much less amass multiple successful programs into one coherent plan to go forward with.

The source for solid advice guys like him used to be able to reference has moved online. Believe it or not at one time Bicycling magazine used to employ a very experienced coach. Every month they would describe a set of on and off the bike workouts to help develop a certain skill in very plain easy to understand language. I truly think that is the type of information needed here in place of wattage acronyms and the above mentioned confused training plans.

A dozen paragraphs touching on the skill about to be trained, how to implement it into your routine, and clear instructions how to perform the workout. The one that I remember the clearest was on slowly developing a better jump throughout the course of the season. It started with a description of how hard the effort is on your body and the need for goodly amounts of rest before and afterwards. It then went on to describe how slower is faster and the physical justification for why it doesn't produce results overnight. Finally you got the two complementary, on and off season, workouts hammering home the need for good form and patience.

Accumulating knowledge and experience with small chunks of the puzzle will reap meaningful fitness gains that are sustainable. The body likes routine, familiarity. Be it pancakes Sunday morning or creating a training plan it can recognize and build from. Blitzing through a calendar of pre-programmed workouts won't expose your weak points. It creates new ones above and beyond them.

[shovelhd]

I kind of misspoke or perhaps did express my intentions well.

I will do intervals for sure. The original question was about how to train for base, volume at lower intensity or sweet spot at lower volume.

However, after I get through base I won’t have big power but I will have a base to build on and then I will do intervals.

Even in base I plan on throwing in some less structured intensity.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You can do either for base, but sweet spot will tire you out over time, so you have to reduce volume. You will also need to think about adding rest, which means off the bike. How do you feel about that? Do you commute by bike? Do you have a need to ride every day? If so, then watch your intensity during this phase. There should be some intensity but it should be measured.

What will your season look like? When does it start and when does it end? Do you have any priority events that you would like to peak for? It's always better to look at a season as a whole than just one portion.

If you are looking to increase your FTP, you can push it up by using FTP intervals or pull it up by doing VO2Max intervals. You can use both, but you have to use them right. The advantage of pulling is that will also make you fast. Sweet spot can be used for push during base but it may not be as effective as FTP, and could end up just being feel good junk miles.

[stephenmarklay]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You can do either for base, but sweet spot will tire you out over time, so you have to reduce volume. You will also need to think about adding rest, which means off the bike. How do you feel about that? Do you commute by bike? Do you have a need to ride every day? If so, then watch your intensity during this phase. There should be some intensity but it should be measured.

What will your season look like? When does it start and when does it end? Do you have any priority events that you would like to peak for? It's always better to look at a season as a whole than just one portion.

If you are looking to increase your FTP, you can push it up by using FTP intervals or pull it up by doing VO2Max intervals. You can use both, but you have to use them right. The advantage of pulling is that will also make you fast. Sweet spot can be used for push during base but it may not be as effective as FTP, and could end up just being feel good junk miles.

Thanks Shovelhd!

To the first part starting pretty quick here I am going to be training not riding. The weather is turing so for me that means 85% of my riding will be on the trainer which is good for structure. At most I will do one team ride on the Sunday with my team (I use “my team” loosely here.)

My general plan is to do a base (16 weeks) with some sprints for fun etc. Then a build of 8 weeks and last a specialty for the sportive rides for 8 weeks.

EDITED: One thing I want to better understand is how to use polarized training concepts during this 32 weeks. I am thinking about adding one unstructured intensity day during base (seems logical) but when the build and specialty times hit I certainly won’t be employing polarized training. So that is an open question.

Planning backwards I want to start around mid April 15th for my first Gran Fondo type ride so I will nearing the end of my specialty. It is really called a fun ride (century) but teams will ride it for fun and the top guys will finish in 4:30 or so fun is relative. I want to be in that pack.

I will likely do most of my events April-July and most will be 100miles give or take. Although I may do a few shorter gravel open races.

[stephenmarklay]

You can only cut through so much of the misinformation and yet to be derided training theories without having the scraps swept up and proclaimed logical training advice. At it's core the problem here is the amount of high level training regimens being thrown at someone amateurish in principles and devotion. Nobody here can train like a pro. Much less amass multiple successful programs into one coherent plan to go forward with.

The source for solid advice guys like him used to be able to reference has moved online. Believe it or not at one time Bicycling magazine used to employ a very experienced coach. Every month they would describe a set of on and off the bike workouts to help develop a certain skill in very plain easy to understand language. I truly think that is the type of information needed here in place of wattage acronyms and the above mentioned confused training plans.

A dozen paragraphs touching on the skill about to be trained, how to implement it into your routine, and clear instructions how to perform the workout. The one that I remember the clearest was on slowly developing a better jump throughout the course of the season. It started with a description of how hard the effort is on your body and the need for goodly amounts of rest before and afterwards. It then went on to describe how slower is faster and the physical justification for why it doesn't produce results overnight. Finally you got the two complementary, on and off season, workouts hammering home the need for good form and patience.

Accumulating knowledge and experience with small chunks of the puzzle will reap meaningful fitness gains that are sustainable. The body likes routine, familiarity. Be it pancakes Sunday morning or creating a training plan it can recognize and build from. Blitzing through a calendar of pre-programmed workouts won't expose your weak points. It creates new ones above and beyond them.

Thank you rando. Clearly there is so much info out there and like in every discipline it can be contradictory and extreme. I used to lift weights a lot and as a kid we did just what the pro bodybuilders of the era told us to do. That was dumb. I do 2 a day workouts etc etc. I made great gains but I was chronically over trained and had sore joints always.

Fast forward to 8 years ago I hired a coach for cycling and drove myself into the ground with 4-5 hour rides on my trainer. It did work in a sense as I ended up with a good base but I was not sleeping, I was way overtrained miserable and not healthy.

I still have that training plan I will use (it has workouts for leg speed and such) as well as the workouts on trainer road.

I believe one thing to be true (for me maybe.) I get good at what I do -very specifically. So if I am doing 1 minute intervals I am going to get very good at 1 minute intervals say 10 times but maybe not so good at 5 minute intervals 5 times or 30 second intervals etc. There is carry over for sure however.

So I may take a day and ride hard for 45 minutes at the end of a 3 hour endurance ride because that will happen in a Fondo.

[stephenmarklay]

I rode the rollers 90 minutes yesterday and 60 minutes today.

I am going to have to work on my metal toughness :crap: