Cyling is the new golf - NY times article

[54ny77]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/business/dealbook/cycling-matches-the-pace-and-pitches-of-tech.html?ref=business

Anyone do biz while on the bike?

Funny thing is, I typically ride to get away from biz for awhile. Sure, will talk about some stuff with like-minded folk (i.e., those in similar industry) if a question or topic comes up, but cycling's my escape. Buddies I ride with who are professionals are similar--none of us talk shop, that's boring as heck....

Couldn't fathom doing a VC pitch while on the cusp of going anaerobic. :bike:

Regardless, it's good to see that cycling is taking shape of being more mainstream, or even required in certain circles, over golf. I'd rather spend 4 hours on a bike with folks vs. 4 hours on a golf course, that's for sure!

[veloduffer]

These articles about cycling is the new golf in Silicon Valley have popped up now and again for several years.

It doesn't happen in NYC, but we don't have the routes that lend themselves to lunch time rides.

In business golf, though, it's considered poor etiquette to talk business on the course. That's done on the 19th hole. For cycling it would be the bagel-bakery-coffee shop.

[joosttx]

I cannot wait til this actually happens. Last year I almost took a couple of customers to Corsica for a bike tour. Sadly it fell through.

[peanutgallery]

If I was that rich the last place youd find me is on the road so some meth head could run me down in a 500 dollar car

You definitely wouldn't find me at what I like to call, a gathering of the choads (group ride). They must drive the soccer moms crazy

[FlashUNC]

If I was that rich the last place youd find me is on the road so some meth head could run me down in a 500 dollar car

You definitely wouldn't find me at what I like to call, a gathering of the choads (group ride). They must drive the soccer moms crazy

You're never going to get your Series C funding with that attitude.

[Jgrooms]

Pick a unique subset & how they live & make a broad assumption that it is the norm. Not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dancinkozmo]

does this mean golf is now the new cycling ?

[54ny77]

That's actually a funny phrase, gonna have to use that one on my next group ride. Haven't heard that term since perhaps 8th grade or so. :banana:



You definitely wouldn't find me at what I like to call, a gathering of the choads (group ride). They must drive the soccer moms crazy

[goonster]

Well, there's always this hilarious Bill Ackman story:

http://www.businessinsider.com/ackman-and-loeb-bike-ride-story-2013-2

[54ny77]

That is comical, and if I may add, cliche.

It's laughable to picture the alpha male trader at ~150lbs dressed in spandex riding a skinny tired bike, screaming in agony from leg cramps.

That's the thing I LOVE about cycling--it doesn't discriminate, it's a great equalizer. On a bike, you're a bike rider. The road doesn't give a ^%$!! who you are or what you do. Whether you're a high school kid or a billionaire, you're still a dork in spandex and either go at [x] pace, or you don't/can't.

Whereas in golf, you could be a solid 100+ lbs overweight or Mr. Universe, and it's all about skill. Not to take away from that, because that's it's own discipline as well. And an immensely frustrating game...

Well, there's always this hilarious Bill Ackman story:

http://www.businessinsider.com/ackman-and-loeb-bike-ride-story-2013-2

[berserk87]

Any comparisons to golf make me say "ugh", but whatever enlarges the cycling community is a positive thing. I am just not a fan of golf.

One of my former bosses once said "I think God created me to drink beer and pee on the golf course".

He was a real visionary.

[54ny77]

Introduce him to the Uroclub. It'll unlock a whole new world for him.

https://www.uroclub.com/store/image/cache/data/uroclub_howto-810x419.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncjYnLgxyCI

Any comparisons to golf make me say "ugh", but whatever enlarges the cycling community is a positive thing. I am just not a fan of golf.

One of my former bosses once said "I think God created me to drink beer and pee on the golf course".

He was a real visionary.

[goonster]

Introduce him to the Uroclub.

Not playing golf is kind of a core value for me, but . . . don't they have trees on those courses?

[peanutgallery]

If there ever was a justified rolling of the coal and a toss of Natural Light empties on a group of cyclists, this just might be it

Well, there's always this hilarious Bill Ackman story:

http://www.businessinsider.com/ackman-and-loeb-bike-ride-story-2013-2

[Dead Man]

That's the thing I LOVE about cycling--it doesn't discriminate, it's a great equalizer. On a bike, you're a bike rider. The road doesn't give a ^%$!! who you are or what you do. Whether you're a high school kid or a billionaire, you're still a dork in spandex and either go at [x] pace, or you don't/can't

I also love this about cycling. And though bikes can obviously also be very expensive, just one year's membership to a halfway decent neighborhood country club and greens fees is more than the cost of a damn fine road bike you can get 50x the use of. But with cycling, you don't have to drop $5k on it... Shopping around Craig's, you can ride an older generation DA-festooned carbon speed demon for as little as $1k. Even $500 will score you a road bike worthy of racing. You don't have to be rich to ride, you don't have to be rich to be fast.

Equalizer indeed.

Man I hate golf. But in a lot of ways, it's very similar to cycling. Both, at the amateur level are dominated by upper middle class middle aged white guys with more money than ability.. Both are highly conformist and can be very elitist/exclusive to anyone who cant buy in at a certain level. But on the other side of the coin, someone with the natural skill and willful determination to work, and the balls to come into either sport with cheap clothing and equipment, can still dominate a race/tournament. There are high school and junior programs that give a lot of not-rich kids opportunities to break into golf, and that's cool. Wish you saw that with cycling!

[jruhlen1980]

Golf sucks but let's not kid ourselves that cycling is some paragon of diversity.

[Avincent52]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/business/dealbook/cycling-matches-the-pace-and-pitches-of-tech.html?ref=business

Anyone do biz while on the bike?

Couldn't fathom doing a VC pitch while on the cusp of going anaerobic. :bike:



I actually did a job interview on a 30-mile-ride once.
(Interviewer: "What do you see as your weaknesses?
Me: "I'd say my--pant--major weakness is--pant--long--gasp---steep--gasp--hills")

Granted it was for a job at Bicycling Magazine, but still.
(No, I didn't get the job but the guy who did, Bill Strickland, is the Editor in Chief now...)

[54ny77]

Why bring that into this discussion?

Of course that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but for what purpose does it serve?

If you feel the need to be an equalizer of creating cycling opportunity for poor inner city kids, I will point you here so as to put your money where your mouth is. They are a wonderful group of dedicated people, making real positive change through cycling for many, many kids: http://www.ichallengemyself.org/


Man I hate golf. But in a lot of ways, it's very similar to cycling. Both, at the amateur level are dominated by upper middle class middle aged white guys with more money than ability.. Both are highly conformist and can be very elitist/exclusive to anyone who cant buy in at a certain level.

[Dead Man]

Why bring that into this discussion?

Of course that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but for what purpose does it serve?

If you feel the need to be an equalizer of creating cycling opportunity for poor inner city kids, I will point you here so as to put your money where your mouth is. They are a wonderful group of dedicated people, making real positive change through cycling for many, many kids: http://www.ichallengemyself.org/

To the first comment: uh, dunno? Seemed a natural segue from the first point I made. Does your upper middle class white male privilege suddenly make you uncomfortable? Wasn't my intent.

To the second: I'm actually actively trying to bring junior road cycling to my own low-income town, full of strong kids and surrounded by excellent training roads. I'm willing to sponsor a junior club and subsidize or even outright provide bikes... I haven't had a hell of a lot of interest from parents, but I think there's more interest from kids. And I recently got the email addy of the local high school's athletic program director and have been meaning to shoot him a note asking what it would take to get a high school cycling program started.

Link isn't displaying right on my phone, but I'll check it out when I get to the office - thanks

[ojingoh]

Sports are a great way to show off. Every 'business ride' I've gone on it was definitely competitive. A lot of layers to it though, and that's where the golf correlation is apt. It's not cool to crush people, so business rides start as no-drop, but end up with as much disdain and condescension at the wait zone as possible. Golf is like this too - bragging about how well you're driving, how your new swing coach was Bruce Harmon's college roommate etc etc etc. That's even before you hit your first tee shot.

[54ny77]

DM: nothing makes me uncomfortable other than being at my in law's eating another insufferable meal. Although, hearing someone try to shove preconceived (or perhaps indoctrinated) assumptions and politically convenient attitudes out there as it pertains to bikes is very annoying.

I wish you success in your attempts to bring cycling to kids' lives, as you've described them.

p.s. incidentally, you know nothing of my background nor I yours. Personal attacks here are juvenile and inappropriate.

To the first comment: uh, dunno? Seemed a natural segue from the first point I made. Does your upper middle class white male privilege suddenly make you uncomfortable? Wasn't my intent.

To the second: I'm actually actively trying to bring junior road cycling to my own low-income town, full of strong kids and surrounded by excellent training roads. I'm willing to sponsor a junior club and subsidize or even outright provide bikes... I haven't had a hell of a lot of interest from parents, but I think there's more interest from kids. And I recently got the email addy of the local high school's athletic program director and have been meaning to shoot him a note asking what it would take to get a high school cycling program started.

Link isn't displaying right on my phone, but I'll check it out when I get to the office - thanks

[fuzzalow]

This is what happens when you make a bed, or an impression from any number false starts of contrived Internet personas, as it were - and then you gotta lie in it.

Vanity and nothingness - a lethal combination.

[Bob Ross]

These articles about cycling is the new golf in Silicon Valley have popped up now and again for several years.

I had to double-check the date, was certain this was a repost from 2012. Or 2008.

Or both.

[fiamme red]

I had to double-check the date, was certain this was a repost from 2012. Or 2008.

Or both.Or 2005: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/fashion/sundaystyles/wheels-and-deals-in-silicon-valley.html. This sort of article has appeared so many times since then.

[echappist]

the article is trite and played out, and NYT should know better, b/c they wrote an article just like this one ten years ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/fashion/sundaystyles/wheels-and-deals-in-silicon-valley.html?_r=0

eta: got pipped on the line

also, it would appear that author of more recent article is oblivious to the previous article

[txcid05]

I also love this about cycling. And though bikes can obviously also be very expensive, just one year's membership to a halfway decent neighborhood country club and greens fees is more than the cost of a damn fine road bike you can get 50x the use of. But with cycling, you don't have to drop $5k on it... Shopping around Craig's, you can ride an older generation DA-festooned carbon speed demon for as little as $1k. Even $500 will score you a road bike worthy of racing. You don't have to be rich to ride, you don't have to be rich to be fast.

Equalizer indeed.

Man I hate golf. But in a lot of ways, it's very similar to cycling. Both, at the amateur level are dominated by upper middle class middle aged white guys with more money than ability.. Both are highly conformist and can be very elitist/exclusive to anyone who cant buy in at a certain level. But on the other side of the coin, someone with the natural skill and willful determination to work, and the balls to come into either sport with cheap clothing and equipment, can still dominate a race/tournament. There are high school and junior programs that give a lot of not-rich kids opportunities to break into golf, and that's cool. Wish you saw that with cycling!

Well said, Sir!

[Dead Man]

p.s. incidentally, you know nothing of my background nor I yours. Personal attacks here are juvenile and inappropriate.

Personal attack?

Does your upper middle class white male privilege suddenly make you uncomfortable? Wasn't my intent.

That might qualify for "mild ribbing," don't think we're gonna meet the threshold for attack though, man.

Oh well... your thread. You can have it.

[Ti Designs]

That's the thing I LOVE about cycling--it doesn't discriminate, it's a great equalizer. On a bike, you're a bike rider. The road doesn't give a ^%$!! who you are or what you do. Whether you're a high school kid or a billionaire, you're still a dork in spandex and either go at [x] pace, or you don't/can't.

Whereas in golf, you could be a solid 100+ lbs overweight or Mr. Universe, and it's all about skill. Not to take away from that, because that's it's own discipline as well. And an immensely frustrating game...


Let me get this straight, in golf it's all about the skill, in cycling you're just a dork on a bike...

[PQJ]

Let me get this straight, in golf it's all about the skill, in cycling you're just a dork on a bike...

No, but mastery of golf requires more skill than does mastery of cycling. I imagine you'd agree with the proposition that mastery of cycling requires more fitness than does golf.

[Ti Designs]

No, but mastery of golf requires more skill than does mastery of cycling.[QUOTE]

I wouldn't know, I haven't mastered cycling yet. That said, based on a pretty good understanding of the requirements of both sports, I'm gonna disagree. Golf has a greater degree of freedom of movement - the club is free to move in 3D space, where as the movement of the pedal is controlled, so to the observer golf seems far more complex.

The observation that any sport that has freedom of movement (golf, tennis, running, swimming...) is more skill based than one that isn't (cycling) makes the assumption that if the pedal goes 'round, the rider must be doing it right. That's not mastering cycling, that's ignorance.

[QUOTE=PQJ;2033282]I imagine you'd agree with the proposition that mastery of cycling requires more fitness than does golf.

The term "fitness" changes with the task at hand. If you are fit for cycling you need a strong cardiovascular system. If you're fit for golf you need the ability to rock hideous plad pants. I'm fit for cycling, but not drinking...

[fuzzalow]

Over the years, I have in varying proportions played golf, tennis and cycled. I don't think that cycling is anywhere near a learned skill sport in the same way either golf or tennis is. The motor skills in cycling are large muscle, gross motor movement skills that are largely dependent on VO2 max and not much else IMO.

Golf, to the consternation of those who dislike it, is still almost the last game that demands some balanced proportion of power and finesse to play reasonably well. The saying "drive for show, putt for dough" is still a truism in golf. Golf is a difficult sport to get serviceable at, forget about getting good at it for most. But it is a beautiful sport.

Tennis in many regards, especially in the pro ranks, has largely gone to a straight power and speed game, disavowing its earlier finesse & shotmaking traditions evident during the time of Jack Kramer to John McEnroe. Of course, at the level I play tennis, their still exists shotmaking but now we are talking more social settings as opposed to professional match play. The large headed tennis racquet, semi-western grip on the forehand and predominance of the two-handed backhand have irreversibly changed tennis into a modern speed & power game. Still graceful perhaps but in a more violent pace & flow of the points.

That is not to say there is not nuance in cycling but I think those nuances are largely involved in the setup, fit & position aspects of riding in a correct position that allows correct and proper engagement of the major muscle groups: glutes, quads, calves hamstrings and hip flexors. I am not of the mind and approach that there is tremendous efficiency to be gained in pedaling technique provided the technique is not grossly out of balance and execution to begin with. Technique alone will not allow you to climb 1-tooth higher than before but IMO might allow you to sustain a more consistent effort given the watts/kg you already have. Such is the marginal benefit of efficiency and technique that has your pedal stroke not working against other muscle groups during the on & off tension cycles in the muscle groups.

I like and participate in all three sports. Each has it moment of being frozen in time: the top of the toss in a tennis serve; the pause on the backswing or before stroking a putt in golf; the effortless posture on a drop bar bicycle.

I truly believe cycling has its greatest contradiction in the widespread belief that there is effort to the simple posture of riding a drop bar sport bicycle. The posture on a drop bar bicycle is actually the one effortless, state of balance and grace that exists in cycling. Everything else is expended in efforts to propulsion. And that part never gets easier, you just go faster.

[velofinds]

the article is trite and played out, and NYT should know better, b/c they wrote an article just like this one ten years ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/fashion/sundaystyles/wheels-and-deals-in-silicon-valley.html?_r=0

And here I thought track days (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/technology/in-silicon-valley-the-rise-of-high-speed-networking.html) were the catnip of the Valley's elite?

[onsight512]

Over the years, I have in varying proportions played golf, tennis and cycled. I don't think that cycling is anywhere near a learned skill sport in the same way either golf or tennis is. The motor skills in cycling are large muscle, gross motor movement skills that are largely dependent on VO2 max and not much else IMO.

Golf, to the consternation of those who dislike it, is still almost the last game that demands some balanced proportion of power and finesse to play reasonably well. The saying "drive for show, putt for dough" is still a truism in golf. Golf is a difficult sport to get serviceable at, forget about getting good at it for most. But it is a beautiful sport.

Tennis in many regards, especially in the pro ranks, has largely gone to a straight power and speed game, disavowing its earlier finesse & shotmaking traditions evident during the time of Jack Kramer to John McEnroe. Of course, at the level I play tennis, their still exists shotmaking but now we are talking more social settings as opposed to professional match play. The large headed tennis racquet, semi-western grip on the forehand and predominance of the two-handed backhand have irreversibly changed tennis into a modern speed & power game. Still graceful perhaps but in a more violent pace & flow of the points.

That is not to say there is not nuance in cycling but I think those nuances are largely involved in the setup, fit & position aspects of riding in a correct position that allows correct and proper engagement of the major muscle groups: glutes, quads, calves hamstrings and hip flexors. I am not of the mind and approach that there is tremendous efficiency to be gained in pedaling technique provided the technique is not grossly out of balance and execution to begin with. Technique alone will not allow you to climb 1-tooth higher than before but IMO might allow you to sustain a more consistent effort given the watts/kg you already have. Such is the marginal benefit of efficiency and technique that has your pedal stroke not working against other muscle groups during the on & off tension cycles in the muscle groups.

I like and participate in all three sports. Each has it moment of being frozen in time: the top of the toss in a tennis serve; the pause on the backswing or before stroking a putt in golf; the effortless posture on a drop bar bicycle.

I truly believe cycling has its greatest contradiction in the widespread belief that there is effort to the simple posture of riding a drop bar sport bicycle.
The posture on a drop bar bicycle is actually the one effortless, state of balance and grace that exists in cycling. Everything else is expended in efforts to propulsion. And that part never gets easier, you just go faster.

there's no 'like' button here, but I'd click it with conviction if there were. Especially the last four sentences.

[Ti Designs]

I am not of the mind and approach that there is tremendous efficiency to be gained in pedaling technique provided the technique is not grossly out of balance and execution to begin with.

So if the pedals are turning you're probably doing it right...

Rather than making assumptions, there are more scientific methods. Pioneer, Garmin and Shimano all have power meters that can show efficiency within the pedal stroke. If there's a 0.1% loss due to inefficiency, I don't see the point on spending hours on pedal stroke. If on the other hand the loss is somewhere between 25 and 30% you should probably forget about the ceramic bearings for now...

Pioneer was the first on the market with a power meter showing vectors. It's brutally honest, it shows direction and magnitude of force every 30 degrees. This turned out to be a bit of a marketing disaster for them, telling the customer that they're doing something wrong just pissed people off (I kinda knew that already), so they returned the power meters. Ignorance is bliss...

Garmin now has efficiency metrics, but they try not to give too much data, and they cheat (it's pretty common in cycling I hear). Garmin assumes that there's a certain loss due to pushing in the wrong direction, so their definition of 100% efficient is how the most efficient cyclist would pedal. I had noticed that in pedal stroke drills I was stuck at 100% for a while, which isn't really possible...

I have yet to play with the Shimano power meter as it's not released yet. If it's anything like their fit bike it's gonna piss off some people.


There's another strange data point I'm having a hard time explaining. At 52 and learning more about how to pedal efficiently, I'm getting faster. If the gains to be made in pedal stroke are that small, it means I've been getting fitter over the past 10 years. I wasn't exactly fat and out of shape 10 years ago... Maybe it's my diet.

[oldpotatoe]

'R' rated..for info but damn funny..about the Scots as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnFbCCgTo4

[berserk87]

And just in time, Velonews reacts to this very issue with the article "Here’s why cycling is not and never will be the new golf":

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/08/news/road/heres-why-cycling-is-not-and-never-will-be-the-new-golf_419009

[Kobe]

I played the local muni course last night and picked up one of these.

http://begagnadegolfbollar.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/titleist_velocity_golf.jpg

So there must be some overlap between golf & cycling.

[ripvanrando]

Over the years, I have in varying proportions played golf, tennis and cycled. I don't think that cycling is anywhere near a learned skill sport in the same way either golf or tennis is. The motor skills in cycling are large muscle, gross motor movement skills that are largely dependent on VO2 max and not much else IMO.

Golf, to the consternation of those who dislike it, is still almost the last game that demands some balanced proportion of power and finesse to play reasonably well. The saying "drive for show, putt for dough" is still a truism in golf. Golf is a difficult sport to get serviceable at, forget about getting good at it for most. But it is a beautiful sport.

Tennis in many regards, especially in the pro ranks, has largely gone to a straight power and speed game, disavowing its earlier finesse & shotmaking traditions evident during the time of Jack Kramer to John McEnroe. Of course, at the level I play tennis, their still exists shotmaking but now we are talking more social settings as opposed to professional match play. The large headed tennis racquet, semi-western grip on the forehand and predominance of the two-handed backhand have irreversibly changed tennis into a modern speed & power game. Still graceful perhaps but in a more violent pace & flow of the points.

That is not to say there is not nuance in cycling but I think those nuances are largely involved in the setup, fit & position aspects of riding in a correct position that allows correct and proper engagement of the major muscle groups: glutes, quads, calves hamstrings and hip flexors. I am not of the mind and approach that there is tremendous efficiency to be gained in pedaling technique provided the technique is not grossly out of balance and execution to begin with. Technique alone will not allow you to climb 1-tooth higher than before but IMO might allow you to sustain a more consistent effort given the watts/kg you already have. Such is the marginal benefit of efficiency and technique that has your pedal stroke not working against other muscle groups during the on & off tension cycles in the muscle groups.

I like and participate in all three sports. Each has it moment of being frozen in time: the top of the toss in a tennis serve; the pause on the backswing or before stroking a putt in golf; the effortless posture on a drop bar bicycle.

I truly believe cycling has its greatest contradiction in the widespread belief that there is effort to the simple posture of riding a drop bar sport bicycle. The posture on a drop bar bicycle is actually the one effortless, state of balance and grace that exists in cycling. Everything else is expended in efforts to propulsion. And that part never gets easier, you just go faster.

Could not say it better...a few thoughts


Plus 2 and lousy Masters 55+ reconstituted Cat 3 pack filler here.

Golf requires much more skill and many more years of devotion irrespective of genetic makeup compared to cycling.

In terms of social and business contacts? Do a Venn diagram of cyclists who are members or Pine Valley, Merion, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, National, Cypress, Olympic and those who ride a bike. Crickets. Yes, I have played them and many, many more.

[fuzzalow]

We have no differences when it comes to bringing something positive and of value to this forum and we are both coming from the same place with our intentions to help others. I am certain that nothing we say about anything we respond to is criticism but rather just two guys talkin' bikes. There are many ways to get better and learning a skill at doin' something.


So if the pedals are turning you're probably doing it right...

HaHa! I didn't say that, there was the rest of my paragraph you edited out to oversimplify what I said.

Rather than making assumptions, there are more scientific methods. Pioneer, Garmin and Shimano all have power meters that can show efficiency within the pedal stroke. If there's a 0.1% loss due to inefficiency, I don't see the point on spending hours on pedal stroke. If on the other hand the loss is somewhere between 25 and 30% you should probably forget about the ceramic bearings for now...

25 to 30% is a big number. Most of the cyclists that read this forum are reasonably skilled even if not refined in technique to the degree that you are - and I'd include my own plodding, low-power, mish-mash pedal stroke as with the heathen in substandard technique. But I don't think I'm off by as much as 30%. So even if you toss a number like that simply to make a point you run the risk of sounding unrealistic.

All this is healthy, constructive exchange because we both recognize there are serious skills involved in sport cycling. Riding a bike is only riding a bike when the device is a beach cruiser and the ride is on the boardwalk to the frozen custard stand.

[Mr. Pink]

Hmmmm.......well, since golf is dying all over the country, I guess cycling is next. (You don't see a lot of kids on bikes like when I was a yoot. You know, biking back and forth to school, twenty miles in the snow, uphill, both ways)