Are Richard Sachs frames not a draw anymore?

[quauhnahuac]

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

[cadence90]

.... ..

[Hilltopperny]

It's just indicative of the current market. Lots of very high level builders frames can be had at a fraction of what they once sold for. There are many great builders out there now and what seems to be a surplus of great used frames to choose from. The other thing is fit. Lots of these frames are custom built and if the geometry is not typical then it's a harder sale. Just my two cents.

[FlashUNC]

Supply and demand.

[dancinkozmo]

Relentless self-promotion.
this...times infinity

[Tickdoc]

They will always be a draw. The market may fluctuate as mentioned, and customized dimensions may be a factor, but their craftsmanship and iconic look will far outlast their owners.

[jet sanchez]

I've been thinking about this with regards to used bikes in general, the market is soft and has been for the last 18 months or so. I'm not sure why and I don't know when it will end but I see tons and tons of great deals everyday on used bikes. Maybe because the economy has become better?

[johnniecakes]

If you strip the paint off what is left? A bicycle frame that is properly aligned and well made. The same thing can be had from many different sources and from with a variety of materials. The traditional lugged method is fancied by some but by itself holds no distinct advantage for joining tubes. The same thought applies here as it does to many products. A $35 Timex keeps time just as accurately as a Rolex, but does not have the “cache”. As those of us who came to cycling many years ago are no longer involved the sport/hobby the lugged frame will become less desired.

[texbike]

Supply and demand.

Primarily this. There are a LOT of really nice bikes/frames for sale right now at incredible prices (compared to what they sold for new). It isn't just the Sachs that are sitting and being deeply discounted.

The demand for really nice bikes isn't increasing at the rate that the supply is. I'd be curious to hear from the custom builders what the demand for their bikes has been over the past 18 months versus 36-48 months ago...

Texbike

[Jeff N.]

"A frame is only as good as it's painter". -Joe Bell (jokingly)

[PQJ]

Relentless self-promotion.

Admittedly, it's a data point of one, but I was smitten the first time I saw one, before I had any clue who the guy with the Jewish-sounding name on the down tube was. I distinctly remember thinking "hmm, Jewish frame builder?"

[54ny77]

This.

Custom steel is the fringe to the fringe.

Many of my cycling pals are older and grew up riding/racing steel, and not a one of them ride anything but carbon these days as their daily and/or race bike. Most have more than 1 carbon bike as well.

I hope steel and other metals (ti, etc) retain their niche and demand for years to come, but i don't envy anyone who has to make a living at it.

As those of us who came to cycling many years ago are no longer involved the sport/hobby the lugged frame will become less desired.

[RedRider]

A significant price drop for the resale market is very common for custom frames. Bikes make terrible investments and custom ones are even worse. Part of the "implied value" for top framebuilders get is from their process. The conversations between builder and customer, the decisions based on personal taste and experienced recommendations, and of course, the wait. Being on a waiting list for your next frame is conversation and in some cases bragging rights. I've spoken with a few builders that avoid and discourage "investors" from buying their frames by announcing closed waiting lists or just keeping those names on the bottom. People who will actually ride them will get their bikes much sooner.
That said, once these frames are offered for resale you are just buying a very well made frame but without any of the "implied" value. It's more of a commodity now.
I've had a few experiences with Pegoretti frames. We've had very happy customers for Big Leg Emmas that have taken over 2 years and just built a Day's Done that he waited 4 years to get but when I was able to get a stock size BLE it hung in the shop for 9 month before we sold it.

[josephr]

A significant price drop for the resale market is very common for custom frames. Bikes make terrible investments and custom ones are even worse. Part of the "implied value" for top framebuilders get is from their process. The conversations between builder and customer, the decisions based on personal taste and experienced recommendations, and of course, the wait. Being on a waiting list for your next frame is conversation and in some cases bragging rights. I've spoken with a few builders that avoid and discourage "investors" from buying their frames by announcing closed waiting lists or just keeping those names on the bottom. People who will actually ride them will get their bikes much sooner.
That said, once these frames are offered for resale you are just buying a very well made frame but without any of the "implied" value. It's more of a commodity now.
I've had a few experiences with Pegoretti frames. We've had very happy customers for Big Leg Emmas that have taken over 2 years and just built a Day's Done that he waited 4 years to get but when I was able to a stock size BLE it hung in the shop for 9 month before we sold it.

+1 --- however, it does seem like there's currently an uptick for Bob Jacksons and a few others...still not as much as they were originally. 5 years ago, the Paramounts were hot, then Sachs/Della Santa were hot....not that they're not nice frames, just market moodiness.

[chiasticon]

my take is that the two in the classifieds are just rather large, and thus have a smaller market for potential buyers who will fit them. one is also repainted a color differing from the iconic paint scheme; though it is still a beautiful bike. they're asking great prices for them, they just have less potential buyers than other if they were 54-56cm bikes.

there was also a guy searching high and low in the classifieds for a 55. that's a size that would likely be scooped up immediately at $2k, but he couldn't find one (or maybe he has now, I don't know). across the hall, an older silver 54 w/10 speed record sold more or less immediately for $3200 a couple months back.

anyway, I think demand is there, and $2k-2500 is a fair price, depending on condition. it's just the sizes in the middle of the spectrum sell easier.

[tuscanyswe]

Its not sachs, its speedvagens and moots too so pretty safe to say the entire bike market is softer than its been in a long long time. Lots of nice gear floating around for peanuts.

And its not just steel or ti either. Its new carbon even niche carbon. Carbon wheels bars posts stems u name it.. Just to much nice gear floating around to get much back from selling used stuff at this point in time imo.

[weisan]

>>I've spoken with a few builders that avoid and discourage "investors" from buying their frames by announcing closed waiting lists or just keeping those names on the bottom. People who will actually ride them will get their bikes much sooner.

Red pal, I don't quite get what you are saying on this. Would you mind elaborating a bit, please? I really want to understand. Thank you.

We all know the adage: Innovate or Die.

Nothing is permanent or forever.

[FlashUNC]

It not just comparing a Sachs against a Sachs. Its the entire used market. As others have pointed to, we're flooded with amazing gear at stupid cheap prices.

Maybe there are some Sachs buyers looking for just a Sachs, but I'd imagine -- like me -- folks are opportunistic, have a list of bikes they'd like to try at some point, and when the right deal comes along they jump on it. Its what I recently did with a mag Pinarello.

Its basic supply and demand, not some grand commentary on Richard or steel bikes or whatever. That's more a Rorschach test of the observer than anything else.

[ojingoh]

Might be changing of the generational guard too - most of the most coveted builders got their start in the 70s and 80s, and maybe the folks who connected with those brands are done connecting.

[Aaron O]

I have a slightly different theory...

Until recently, road bikes had been mostly the same for the past 25+ years. 130mm, standard bb shell, most used calipers.

Now people want disc, 1 1/8 head tube, through axels, more tire clearance, etc. Where a Sachs (or any other frame) was fully able to be MODERN two years ago, the changes in standards are reducing demand.

[RedRider]

>>I've spoken with a few builders that avoid and discourage "investors" from buying their frames by announcing closed waiting lists or just keeping those names on the bottom. People who will actually ride them will get their bikes much sooner.

Red pal, I don't quite get what you are saying on this. Would you mind elaborating a bit, please? I really want to understand. Thank you.

r.

There are some very deep pocked, new cyclist that have to have the best of everything in their collection. Some framebuilders became annoyed that their frames were being hung for display or used a status symbols and not ridden on the road or races. You probably don't agree with the concept and many would say a sale is a sale but that's an artist for ya!

[ojingoh]

I have a slightly different theory...

Until recently, road bikes had been mostly the same for the past 25+ years. 130mm, standard bb shell, most used calipers.

Now people want disc, 1 1/8 head tube, through axels, more tire clearance, etc. Where a Sachs (or any other frame) was fully able to be MODERN two years ago, the changes in standards are reducing demand.

That is a very good point.

[weisan]

Good point, Aaron pal!

[livingminimal]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

[livingminimal]

I have a slightly different theory...

Until recently, road bikes had been mostly the same for the past 25+ years. 130mm, standard bb shell, most used calipers.

Now people want disc, 1 1/8 head tube, through axels, more tire clearance, etc. Where a Sachs (or any other frame) was fully able to be MODERN two years ago, the changes in standards are reducing demand.

It's totally this, and the size of the recent bikes.

And the used market.

Its a combination of things.

Eric's got a barely used multi-TdF winning quality $7,000 frame that hasn't seen any real updates in three years for 1300 freaking dollars. It's just the state of things. Richie has nothing to do with it.

[saab2000]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

Well said.

[RedRider]

I have a slightly different theory...

Until recently, road bikes had been mostly the same for the past 25+ years. 130mm, standard bb shell, most used calipers.

Now people want disc, 1 1/8 head tube, through axels, more tire clearance, etc. Where a Sachs (or any other frame) was fully able to be MODERN two years ago, the changes in standards are reducing demand.

I'll agree with the change in demand but the lugged steel frame market is so very small that there will always be a some demand from people that appreciate them. That demand will wax and wane...

[jinbok]

if my size 52-53 Sachs shows up, i'm gonna sell my kidney and buy that frame.

[classtimesailer]

I think somebody thought a road bike/frame was a good investment. I continue to receive dividends from my 2011 purchase and if the prices come down, I want a 70's NR RS.

[Dave B]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

This.

I admire Richard for the advice he has given me as well as the kindness he has shown me personally.

it is also rumored that he makes pretty sweet bikes. Wonder if he would make me a full suspension mtb? hmmmmm

[livingminimal]

I think somebody thought a road bike/frame was a good investment.

I agree. I think in the past 5 years, with all these new builders coming up, a lot of people jumped in and bought multiple bikes from multiple builders, thinking that the idea of exclusive singularity would make a frame valuable. Its just not the case. Also, I think a lot of people with thick fleets of multiple custom bikes that go barely ridden are starting to want to turn bikes over to get into the gravel/adventure/multipurpose place and want collateral to do that, or that bikes are simply wasting away when they're not being ridden.

[bfd]

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

What's going on? Nothing. I don't think Richard Sachs is hurting. It is my understanding his wait list is "closed," and supposedly, if you're on it, there's like a 6+ year wait. Further, I also understand he is getting like $6K for a frameset. RS is not hurting.

Now, if you're talking used, then it's what the market bears. But, like others have stated, most RS are "custom" and not everyone fits the same size or geometry. So, used is what comes out at any given time and whether those watching happen upon it and can fit that size.

I'm getting a new custom steel frameset. But it will not be from Sachs, I don't have time to wait! Good Luck!

[chiasticon]

Well said.exactly. glad someone said it.

[happycampyer]

For comparison purposes, a pristine, lugged Bedford just sold on ebay for $514. In the classifieds here, the price of a white lugged Zanc has recently been reduced to $925. A blue metallic Zanc was recently listed at $1,100. Some lugged Kirks appear to have moved in the $1,500 range. More recent lugged Hampstens seem to be similarly priced.

Imo the market in general for used bikes is soft and has been for some time. In the grand scheme of things, I would argue that Sachs frames hold their value pretty well.

I own a number of bikes, and have ridden lots of others. I love the way steel bikes look (especially lugged steel), but I generally don't like the way they ride (actually, the brief ride I took on Tim P's Jeagher made me think seriously about ordering one). I have a second-hand CSi and a second-hand Sachs that I keep because, other than the Jeagher, they are the best-riding steel bikes I've ever ridden. If I sold them both, I would expect the Sachs to fetch 3 - 4x the price of the Serotta, even though the ride qualities are very similar.

[mistermo]

Admittedly, it's a data point of one, but I was smitten the first time I saw one, before I had any clue who the guy with the Jewish-sounding name on the down tube was. I distinctly remember thinking "hmm, Jewish frame builder?"

What TF?!?

[Aaron O]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

+1...I can't call him a friend, but I'll say he's a mensch. The guy advertises and markets well, shouldn't we admire that? He has his reputation for a reason, and his bikes are beautiful.

[bcroslin]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

This.

Anyone who owns their own business realizes pretty quickly that marketing and advertising play a key role in being successful. It used to be that you would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a print ad in a magazine and hope someone saw it. Now, social media allows folks like e-richie to market directly to his customers and see almost in real time who he's reaching. The people who I've run into in my line of work who complain about shameless self-promotion are generally the ones that are either bad at marketing their services or are just plain lazy and expect the world to come to them.

As far as used prices go, IMO this forum is a terrible place to sell high end bikes of any kind and I type that with all due respect. It seems like the only things that sell quickly are goods that are priced to move. I've sold several items recently for more on eBay than I was asking here in the classifieds. I even lowered the price on items here in the classifieds to take into consideration seller fees on eBay and the best I've gotten is a few low-ball offers. The PL classifieds should not be used as a barometer for used bike prices.

[Big Dan]

All because one used frame?
Tough crowd.

[Aaron O]

I don't understand people who run down RS for actually knowing the business side of the BUSINESS better than some others. With respect to the "art", let's be honest here...how many of us want to toil away for the sake of craft with no reward?

Let's take the guys who are regarded as the very best of the best...Mr. Kirk, Mr. Sachs, Bruce Gordon, Mr. Weigle (any of your faves left off, sorry...but there's lots of talent out there). The guys who have been doing this, and doing it well, for decades. They survive the trends and they often shape them. I haven't seen RS's tax return...but given his lofty position...one built over DECADES...compare his likely financial bounty to most others at the top of their craft. A dentist, a framer...etc. The truth is that, given the expertise and quality, frames from guys like this are, comparatively a bargain. They should make some money...and if RS is able to sell some other stuff and make some bank, GOOD!

I think part of the "problem" is that the skill set and mind that often makes a great frame builder is often not the same skill set that leads to a great business man. There isn't enough money to have partnerships of the two....so a lot of the time very skilled builders don't get the business side and don't have someone to guide them through it. Shouldn't we be happy that RS has had success at both, and been able to show some others in the industry how that's done?

[happycampyer]

This.

Anyone who owns their own business realizes pretty quickly that marketing and advertising play a key role in being successful. It used to be that you would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a print ad in a magazine and hope someone saw it. Now, social media allows folks like e-richie to market directly to his customers and see almost in real time who he's reaching. The people who I've run into in my line of work who complain about shameless self-promotion are generally the ones that are either bad at marketing their services or are just plain lazy and expect the world to come to them.

As far as used prices go, IMO this forum is a terrible place to sell high end bikes of any kind and I type that with all due respect. It seems like the only things that sell quickly are goods that are priced to move. I've sold several items recently for more on eBay than I was asking here in the classifieds. I even lowered the price on items here in the classifieds to take into consideration seller fees on eBay and the best I've gotten is a few low-ball offers. The PL classifieds should not be used as a barometer for used bike prices.

^^ This. Over the last several years, the civility of the Paceline in general has deteriorated precipitously, and the classifieds have been overrun with bottom-feeders. I have sold a fair amount of stuff here in years past, but now mainly just offer things to people I know (either personally or virtually) via pm.

[eddief]

ATMO-sphere. As can be seen in this thread. He don't care what we think. And that's ok.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

None have been a 55. :rolleyes: Three empty pegs in the cave to complete the so called bucket list. An RS is one of them.

[PQJ]

What TF?!?

I'm Jewish. ATMO (sorry, couldn't resist), "Sachs" is a Jewish-sounding name. And thus it is that I thought it was cool that a (possible) member of my tribe happened to build bicycles which I liked the look of. That's it.

[Jeff N.]

ATMO-sphere. As can be seen in this thread. He don't care what we think. And that's ok.Exactly. He could NOT care less, and that's fine.

[Corso]

I believe a steel bike made by any craftsman will fetch a bigger re-sale than the sea of plastic-mold bikes that are “new-with loaded features”.

To answer the OP’s question: a Sachs frame is and will always be “wanted”.

[Jeff N.]

I'm Jewish. ATMO (sorry, couldn't resist), "Sachs" is a Jewish-sounding name. And thus it is that I thought it was cool that a (possible) member of my tribe happened to build bicycles which I liked the look of. That's it.I believe Gary Klein is Jewish.

[AngryScientist]

i think there are a bunch of reasons the market for pre-owned lugged steel frames is depressed, here are a few:

1) the potential pool of buyers for such a frame is small and finite. there are probably a whole bunch of people who would like to buy a RS frame, but those with enough disposable income to actually purchase one, and the desire to have a used one is a small group.

2) the changing bike atmosphere. many people who thought they were happy with lugged steel bikes are discovering that life exists off pavement, and that aluminum, carbon and Ti bikes are a whole lot lighter. disc brakes are in vogue, fat tire clearance is in demand right now. disposable income is being diverted toward the "gravel bike" over the "classic bike"

3) i think RS makes his lugs and proprietary tubes available to other framebuilders, so if the desire for a lugged steel bike made to order is on the menu, there are more options to get such a thing new, with short waitlist and made to spec, not used.

[sailorboy]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

+2 on this.

Those brief comments about 'shameless self-promotion' etc come across as petty snipes that are likely an effort to continue some ax-grinding that has long-preceded this thread. They don't really contribute to the discussion imho.

You either value what Richard, or any other builder like him brings to the process, or you don't. Simple as that. In addition to all the great advice he's generously provided to fledgling builders in recent years, there is so much to see and enjoy even just going over his flickr pages and writings. Not a lot of people are that publically generous with themselves.

FWIW, the champagne-colored unit that sold across the hall recently was exhaustively presented in a flckr set called "GeeSawa" or something several years ago. You can still find it on page 6 of his flickr albums. Made specially (for a respected member here and over there) with vintage sand-cast lugs that had dozens of hours spent refining the shapes and thinning them as a crucial step in creating the masterpiece that is the final product.

I don't know how many of you on here would value your time in whatever you do for a living, but I call a Sachs-made frame a bargain any day.

[54ny77]

that's because steel bikes are so 2009.

the future is cardboard.

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2012/07/cardboard-bike-2374237864234.png.650x0_q70_crop-smart.jpg

[superbowlpats]

Well he's racing the KMC Cross Fest in Thompson, CT in the Masters 50+ / 60+ races 10/1-2 , stop by and discuss with him :bike: ;)

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I believe a steel bike made by any craftsman will fetch a bigger re-sale than the sea of plastic-mold bikes that are “new-with loaded features”.

To answer the OP’s question: a Sachs frame is and will always be “wanted”.

Plus about one trillion.

[54ny77]

teensy tiny steel bike used market aside, i wanna know where all the hundreds & hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of carbon bikes sold over the past 8-10 years go? seriously. is there a sea of postal treks hanging from red hooks in garage rafters? are there untold gazillions of tarmacs stuffed in basements?

[eddief]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd1Pyu9_rxo

[Aaron O]

I'll agree with the change in demand but the lugged steel frame market is so very small that there will always be a some demand from people that appreciate them. That demand will wax and wane...

It's not lugged steel that is, or isn't, in demand; there will always be some demand for a quality custom made frame. What's less in demand is a used custom bike that has features that don't allow for, or require some adaptation for, some modern trends.

It isn't an issue of the builders being outdated. A used RS two years ago met all of the modern trend click boxes with no limiting factors. That's less true now...so there's less demand from some buyers.

Think of it like this...a 120mm spaced frame had more...particular...demand 3 years ago than a 130mm because of the current standards. I think that's happening now...latest/greatest trends are limiting interest in used bikes with different standards...and that's a very recent change. There will always be demand for bikes of the RS caliber...but it may be a different market (like the market for a 1972 Colnago is different than one from 1998). Think of it in terms of french threading and odd sizing...there's nothing WRONG with it, but it's a possibly limiting factor, or at least one requiring additional effort...so there is, generally, less demand for French bikes than ones that can fit modern standards more easily.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd1Pyu9_rxo
She could be a frikkin' martian, sheez, classic beauty. And paid pretty damn good.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/the-worlds-highest-paid-actresses-2016/ss-BBvXsd7?ocid=spartanntp#image=9

[Dead Man]

Doesn't seem like Richard Sachs has anything to do with the used market.... can someone make that connection?

As noted, he's not hurting. His frames are still fetching whatever he's charging for them, and there's many times more demand than supply. He has no control over what happens to his frames after they're received by the people who order them from him. You quite literally cannot criticize the man, from a business perspective - his model works just fine.

That out of the way, we're now just talking about nice used steel frames. And they're only worth what a person is willing to pay, across the board. I just think used Sachs frames simply aren't worth what a lot of people think they are. I think there's a sort of inflated perception due to the occasional high-dollar used sale, when the type of person who is willing to spend multiple thousands of dollars on highest-end custom just happens to come across a used frame that just happens to have just the right geometry.... the sale is highly conspicuous, either on bike boards or ebay, and people think "gosh! Used Sachs frame really hold their value!" Yea, only when the stars align perfectly. Otherwise, the dude willing too spend thousands on a custom frame is going to spend his thousands on an actually custom-to-him frame. All others will sit, until their prices come down to comparable with other high-end steel, or just the right, rare person comes along.

Just my thoughts.

I have no boner for Sachs or his bikes.. you can have 'em. But I respect his model, as a fellow tradesman/businessman.


ETA - do you guys who criticized Sachs in this thread think he spends any time at all watching used price trends on his bikes, or cares at all what they go for? Not intended as snide - honest question. I doubt he does at all.

[Mikej]

I'm not a super fan, would never wait 8 years, buy one used for even 25% of $6k? but I'll say that stack of green cross bikes looked pretty dang sweet he posted over on V salon frame builders forum Friday night lights. Coolest looking team ever.

[Climb01742]

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

[rccardr]

As someone who rides only vintage and has a sizeable collection -including an '83 RS with full SR- completely agree that bikes are a terrible investment and the market continues to be soft on price and flush on supply. Whether or not prices go up in the future is pretty irrelevant to me because I don't buy to sell, I buy to ride, and all of my toys get played with. Don't care about carbon, or disk brakes, or any of the other stuff introduced in the past few years. So, a great buying opportunity here if you like steel and have the money and space to indulge.

Looking at it through an economics lense, the supply of upper level nice steel bikes is only increasing (they don't go bad, and few are destroyed or wrecked) while the number of interested buyers remains stagnant or, as some have conjectured, is diminishing. So, yeah, in that kind of a market prices will be capped at a fairly depressed willing buyer-willing seller level. Add in the variability on sizing & installed components, and the potential pool of buyers for any given frame or complete bike just gets that much smaller.

While my personal opinion is that both of the RS frames in question are very, very nice, the market is saying that they are priced too high. As a data point, some time ago I paid just a little under $2K for my complete RS in flawless condition with Super Record. So more than that for a frame? In the real world, maybe not.

[Aaron O]

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

I don't think so...I see a lot of younger folks intrigued by steel frames, and I think many of the recent trends lend themselves quite well to steel. Road bikes might be becoming somewhat less popular of late, but you know how this is...it's cyclical and latest/greatest.

I do LOVE the gravel trend, first because it's a fun way to ride, and second, because it leads to some seriously great, adaptable bikes.

When you go to something like the Bilenky convention...there are a LOT of younger folks there...now they're baristas, but down the road many will be dentists, and they'll want these bikes just like we did when we were poor.

As someone who rides only vintage and has a sizeable collection -including an '83 RS with full SR- completely agree that bikes are a terrible investment and the market continues to be soft on price and flush on supply. Whether or not prices go up in the future is pretty irrelevant to me because I don't buy to sell, I buy to ride, and all of my toys get played with. Don't care about carbon, or disk brakes, or any of the other stuff introduced in the past few years. So, a great buying opportunity here if you like steel and have the money and space to indulge.

Looking at it through an economics lense, the supply of upper level nice steel bikes is only increasing (they don't go bad, and few are destroyed or wrecked) while the number of interested buyers remains stagnant or, as some have conjectured, is diminishing. So, yeah, in that kind of a market prices will be capped at a fairly depressed willing buyer-willing seller level. Add in the variability on sizing & installed components, and the potential pool of buyers for any given frame or complete bike just gets that much smaller.

While my personal opinion is that both of the RS frames in question are very, very nice, the market is saying that they are priced too high. As a data point, some time ago I paid just a little under $2K for my complete RS in flawless condition with Super Record. So more than that for a frame? In the real world, maybe not.
Mine sold for about the same number with DA 7400...which is more than most bikes of that vintage sell for. People want RS bikes, still.

[chiasticon]

It isn't an issue of the builders being outdated. A used RS two years ago met all of the modern trend click boxes with no limiting factors. That's less true now...so there's less demand from some buyers.I dunno, I kinda think that people seriously interested in a Sachs generally aren't going to turn away from it because it doesn't tick all the boxes on current-day trends.

that said, my '02(ish) Sachs fits wide rims and tires, has a threaded BB (because modern or not, press-fit is evil) and will eventually have a wireless drivetrain. that's modern enough, ATMO.

[Tickdoc]

Now people want disc, 1 1/8 head tube, through axels, more tire clearance, etc. .

I'm glad I don't fit this descriptive.

[livingminimal]

I dunno, I kinda think that people seriously interested in a Sachs generally aren't going to turn away from it because it doesn't tick all the boxes on current-day trends.

Yepppp. It is the only custom bike right now that I would spend money on that wasn't set up for disc, thru-axle, electronic shifting, lots of clearance.

Im not on the list though and likely never will be, but I would be fine with the kind of bike Richie produces.

[sandyrs]

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

One data point- I'm 25 and have had three custom steel bikes made for me. I've also owned a few other steel bikes. I was driven to custom early because I'm 6'5" and don't fit a ton of stock bikes (and when I was in college, my fit was so messed up that I thought I fit on even fewer than I presently do).

My perspective is that most of us young'ns are still getting our adult cycling start on a college campus on some 80s Nishiki or Centurion or something before getting "real" bikes for racing. I don't think lack of interest in steel is due to not knowing what a steel frame feels like. It's indicative of a general lack of interest in handmade/idiosyncratic/domestically-manufactured goods, and interest in those goods is coming back in a lot of industries, so I think custom bicycles will be around (in steel) for a long time.

Also remember that in the world of younger people with no savings just getting started being financially independent, custom bicycles are expensive, and many twentysomethings simply can't afford to go custom even though they want to in a world where a CAAD12 with 105 is $1500.

[Aaron O]

I'm glad I don't fit this descriptive.

I got a bike with those features a few months ago...it's pretty fun. Is it better? More fun? I dunno, it's different, and it's fun. My heart will always be with the "classics" I suspect.

[Aaron O]

One data point- I'm 25 and have had three custom steel bikes made for me. I've also owned a few other steel bikes. I was driven to custom early because I'm 6'5" and don't fit a ton of stock bikes (and when I was in college, my fit was so messed up that I thought I fit on even fewer than I presently do).

My perspective is that most of us young'ns are still getting our adult cycling start on a college campus on some 80s Nishiki or Centurion or something before getting "real" bikes for racing. I don't think lack of interest in steel is due to not knowing a steel frame feels like. It's indicative of a general lack of interest in handmade/idiosyncratic/domestically-manufactured goods, and interest in those goods is coming back in a lot of industries, so I think custom bicycles will be around (in steel) for a long time.
It's something that people aren't talking about, but it's true. The last 4 years have seen the first manufacturing gains in ages...it's smaller scale, more boutique, more high end production and it's serving our increasingly polarized economy. There are more people with more money...and stuff like this is appealing to them. Reflecting the general polarization and trends, we're seeing fewer "middle class" outfits and more super cheap or super high end.

[Tickdoc]

I got a bike with those features a few months ago...it's pretty fun. Is it better? More fun? I dunno, it's different, and it's fun. My heart will always be with the "classics" I suspect.

I went from a bmx bike as a kid to a road bike as a teen and just have never varied. No mountain bike, no gravel bike, no cross bike, nothing electric or hydraulic, no fixie (well, I did try that, but hated it).

I like the mechanical and hand built nature of a road bike. I'm ok with advanced materials, so long as they are used in a traditional manner. Weird, I know.

[tuscanyswe]

It's something that people aren't talking about, but it's true. The last 4 years have seen the first manufacturing gains in ages...it's smaller scale, more boutique, more high end production and it's serving our increasingly polarized economy. There are more people with more money...and stuff like this is appealing to them. Reflecting the general polarization and trends, we're seeing fewer "middle class" outfits and more super cheap or super high end.

That reflection is very true and very sad :/

[FlashUNC]

About all steel bikes...is the market simply getting smaller? I'd be curious about the age distribution of folks who own handmade steel frames. Skews older, I'd guess. And maybe their 'needs' have been filled, their stables full? And how many new, younger buyers of steel are there? Is the demand pipeline being refilled or is it shrinking? How many younger riders have any experience with steel, experiences that would stoke a fire for a custom of a high calibre? Those of us who've ridden steel for many years have both an appreciation for it and a desire to own it. But are fewer new and younger riders even trying steel? Demand isn't always about quality. Sometimes it's just experience.

I'd love to find an IBM Selectric II typewriter or an even older Olivetti Lettera 32. Why? Because as a pup, I wrote on both and know the idiosyncratic pleasures of typewriters. Any 25-year-old doing that? You can't want something you've never experienced. Is this happening, to some degree, to steel frames?

Fwiw I'm 35, started riding on a steel Allez in the mid 90s and always wanted a steel bike from the guy who made Greg LeMond's steel stuff.

So I ride a Della Santa. But I also want a Kirk, a Winter, a Sachs...

I'd say I'm in the extreme minority more because I'm into custom frames than steel per se.

The custom niche is extremely small compared to the broader bike riding populace.

[Aaron O]

I went from a bmx bike as a kid to a road bike as a teen and just have never varied. No mountain bike, no gravel bike, no cross bike, nothing electric or hydraulic, no fixie (well, I did try that, but hated it).

I like the mechanical and hand built nature of a road bike. I'm ok with advanced materials, so long as they are used in a traditional manner. Weird, I know.

I went from a bmx bike as a kid to a road bike as a teen and just have never varied. No mountain bike, no gravel bike, no cross bike, nothing electric or hydraulic, no fixie (well, I did try that, but hated it).

I like the mechanical and hand built nature of a road bike. I'm ok with advanced materials, so long as they are used in a traditional manner. Weird, I know.

No man, not weird...whatever makes you grin works :beer:

[jet sanchez]

Eric's got a barely used multi-TdF winning quality $7,000 frame that hasn't seen any real updates in three years for 1300 freaking dollars. It's just the state of things. Richie has nothing to do with it.

What's this?

[bcroslin]

I don't think so...I see a lot of younger folks intrigued by steel frames, and I think many of the recent trends lend themselves quite well to steel. Road bikes might be becoming somewhat less popular of late, but you know how this is...it's cyclical and latest/greatest.

I do LOVE the gravel trend, first because it's a fun way to ride, and second, because it leads to some seriously great, adaptable bikes.

When you go to something like the Bilenky convention...there are a LOT of younger folks there...now they're baristas, but down the road many will be dentists, and they'll want these bikes just like we did when we were poor.


Mine sold for about the same number with DA 7400...which is more than most bikes of that vintage sell for. People want RS bikes, still.

I agree that steel seems to be making a resurgence but I'm also basing that opinion on the fact that I just picked up a steel bike recently after riding carbon for years.

With that said, friends of mine just opened a "coffee and bikes" shop here in St Pete and they don't have a single carbon frame bike in the shop. All vintage steel racing bikes and Moots for guys like me who want something a little more modern. It was a conscious decision after watching several high-end shops that cater to the carbon crowd struggle and fail. I can walk into my local Trek store and I might as well be walking into BestBuy for bikes.

The steel resurgence may be cyclical and it may fade but it feels more authentic than what I'm getting down at the local triathlete emporium full of spendy bikes that I can buy for less on the internet.

[tuscanyswe]

What's this?

Ebaumann´s (father in law if my memory serves) dogma i suppose.

[livingminimal]

What's this?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=165453

same frame under Wiggins and Froome in successive years winning tdf (that doesn't mean anything to me personally, but the point is, this aint a ****ing fuji)
The F8 is different a bit, but could any of us REALLY tell the difference performance-wise?

Retailed for 3700 sterling, 6800USD I believe, roughly.

thirteen hundred freaking dollars.

[ltwtsculler91]

Also remember that in the world of younger people with no savings just getting started being financially independent, custom bicycles are expensive, and many twentysomethings simply can't afford to go custom even though they want to in a world where a CAAD12 with 105 is $1500.

I'm also 25 and I think this is a huge part of it. A CAAD or Trek Emonda ALR or Allez with 105 or ultegra is a FANTASTIC bike for $1500-$2000 and most of us can't afford much more at the moment.. It may just be where and who I ride with, but most of us younger guys are looking to upgrade to a steel or Ti bike once we have enough saved up to make the jump from Aluminum or entry Carbon.

I'm on a Trek ALR 6 now, and our younger crew is mostly on ALRs or CAAD10s with a few mid level carbon ultegra bikes thrown in

[livingminimal]

I'm also 25 and I think this is a huge part of it. A CAAD or Trek Emonda ALR or Allez with 105 or ultegra is a FANTASTIC bike for $1500-$2000 and most of us can't afford much more at the moment.. It may just be where and who I ride with, but most of us younger guys are looking to upgrade to a steel or Ti bike once we have enough saved up to make the jump from Aluminum or entry Carbon.

I'm on a Trek ALR 6 now, and our younger crew is mostly on ALRs or CAAD10s with a few mid level carbon ultegra bikes thrown in

And you're all dropping me on my custom $$$ bikes anyway.
and having just as much fun.

[Steelman]

Perhaps the entire market for nice gear is shrinking.

Hard to ride a bicycle when you have a designer coffee in one hand, and an Apple phone in the other.

The next generation have their minds elsewhere. Are today's children even learning how to ride bikes?

And the environmentally conscious (conspicuous?) need something entirely different for commuting.

[54ny77]

Perhaps I'm outside the norm, but given the choice between riding one of my "nicer" (read: more expensive) carbon bikes vs. my CAAD9 on any given day, if push came to shove I honestly couldn't care less. It's such a great riding & handling bike.

I'm also 25 and I think this is a huge part of it. A CAAD or Trek Emonda ALR or Allez with 105 or ultegra is a FANTASTIC bike for $1500-$2000 and most of us can't afford much more at the moment.. It may just be where and who I ride with, but most of us younger guys are looking to upgrade to a steel or Ti bike once we have enough saved up to make the jump from Aluminum or entry Carbon.

I'm on a Trek ALR 6 now, and our younger crew is mostly on ALRs or CAAD10s with a few mid level carbon ultegra bikes thrown in

[Kirk007]

I'd hazard that anyone willing to plunk down money on a used custom frame has a pretty good idea of what fits, what doesn't and perhaps has made a mistake or 2 in the past buying a desired frame and trying to make it work (yep I fit that description). I'd have bought that white/blue Sachs in a heart beat if it was a few cm bigger here and there but its not so .... For me this is noteworthy as I took myself off the list for a new one as price and desire no longer matched, but used at the right price and dimensions, yeah I'd probably "overpay" the used market a bit for the right bike. I just did that with a NOS Motorola replica MXL; a this point in time it was probably a one off, but now its not, and should I sell it used I know I'll take a bit of a hit but that's ok.

If your on this forum cause you love bikes as opposed to just trying to squeeze out the last few pennies on a bargain, then I doubt a $100 here or there is very meaningful, at least its not for me.

[JasonF]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication.

+1000

I've owned a few and have been fortunate to move them on at the same price that I paid so while not an investment I'm pleased that as a hobby the cost to me was zero. Contrast that with the baths I've taken on other frames through the years. Oh well.

My limited contact with e-Richie has been nothing but pleasant. He likes to write and so he blends his craft with his writing and the web is a natural way for anyone to express this. Read his stuff or not - I doubt he cares.

Personally, I think the smartest thing he did was close his book (well, kind of closed). Scarcity creates demand although I doubt this was his intent. He probably ran the numbers and realized that working through his order book, still keeping it open for 'cross frames, repairs, etc, etc...was enough to keep the lights on and anything more than that wasn't worth the hassle.

[everbeek]

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

My white/carolina blue RS finally sold Sunday evening. Soon after I first got it in June of 99, I noticed a for sale 3 x 5 note card on the wall at a local REI asking $450 for an 82 RS with a nearly full Super Record (early 80s era) build. It was really small (49ish cm) but also really long (52+ish TT), but after spreding the rear to 130 and fitting a Daytona triple on it my wife made great use of it for 10 years. Joe Bell repainted it early on and we sold it on eBay about 5 years ago in just a few days for something like $2400 but it was really an odd sized bike.

With Richard's books closed for everyone and new frames going for $5,000, I initially thought that a modern one with no dents and an awesome, and different, paint scheme would sell quickly (here, VSalon and eBay). It was, essentially, 58 cm square with the wheels located just where they should be and should fit lots of guys 5'11"-6'1" unless those guys are riding too small bikes. The bike received lots of compliments but I was way off base on the asking price (and my pricing rationale).

For those interested, I pocketed $2150 after shipping. I paid $2,000 on the dot in 1999. The new owner should love it.
-Mike

[Waldo]

You all realize, of course, that this thread is just the type of viral marketing that Richard adores? (Not that there's anything wrong with it...)

:)

[sparky33]

My white/carolina blue RS finally sold Sunday evening.

With Richard's books closed for everyone and new frames going for $5,000, I initially thought that a modern one with no dents and an awesome, and different, paint scheme would sell quickly (here, VSalon and eBay). It was, essentially, 58 cm square with the wheels located just where they should be and should fit lots of guys 5'11"-6'1" unless those guys are riding too small bikes. The bike received lots of compliments but I was way off base on the asking price (and my pricing rationale).

For those interested, I pocketed $2150 after shipping. I paid $2,000 on the dot in 1999. The new owner should love it.
-Mike

Most bikes would depreciate to $0 over that same time period, so your bike is a data point outside the norm.

[seric]

I'm just going to throw in half a cent which might apply to the steel side of this conversation, the offerings of the current component manufacturers add an additional hardship for those chasing after a lugged build with classic styling. I settled on Ultrashift Athena for my RS, which to my eye is the last groupset offered without sacrificing form for function. I was however chasing a particular look, which my needs allowed for. Someone with more riding ability than myself would likely need to take function of their components at a higher value over form than my riding aspirations require.

As with others, all of my communication with E-Richie was fantastic. He was very helpful for someone who had no interest or profit to gain from me.

[sparky33]

I'd like to add that I would be drawn to a ~55 long&lowish Sachs road of the recent vintage if anyone is looking to sell.

[Tickdoc]

I'd like to add that I would be drawn to a ~55 long&lowish Sachs road of the recent vintage if anyone is looking to sell.

Me too!:beer:

[sailorboy]

You all realize, of course, that this thread is just the type of viral marketing that Richard adores? (Not that there's anything wrong with it...)

:)

Curious how you come to this? I'll admit I don't read everything he puts down in 1s and 0s but I've not read anything he's written that backs this up.

How is it you are inside his head on this?

[beeatnik]

+2 on this.

Those brief comments about 'shameless self-promotion' etc come across as petty snipes that are likely an effort to continue some ax-grinding that has long-preceded this thread. They don't really contribute to the discussion imho.

You either value what Richard, or any other builder like him brings to the process, or you don't. Simple as that. In addition to all the great advice he's generously provided to fledgling builders in recent years, there is so much to see and enjoy even just going over his flickr pages and writings. Not a lot of people are that publically generous with themselves.

FWIW, the champagne-colored unit that sold across the hall recently was exhaustively presented in a flckr set called "GeeSawa" or something several years ago. You can still find it on page 6 of his flickr albums. Made specially (for a respected member here and over there) with vintage sand-cast lugs that had dozens of hours spent refining the shapes and thinning them as a crucial step in creating the masterpiece that is the final product.

I don't know how many of you on here would value your time in whatever you do for a living, but I call a Sachs-made frame a bargain any day.

You know how it goes. You call a bika a sporting good and cats who hate sports get uptight. I used to suck at golf but I didn't expect the game (standards, traditions, equipment) to change for me in order to be "inclusive."

[Waldo]

Curious how you come to this? I'll admit I don't read everything he puts down in 1s and 0s but I've not read anything he's written that backs this up.

How is it you are inside his head on this?

There's no such thing as bad publicity, I am paraphrasing Richard here.

[joosttx]

Where are these cheap Richard Sachs bikes lurking. I need a modern CX in a 56.5 asap. Cash in hand.

[happycampyer]

I'd like to add that I would be drawn to a ~55 long&lowish Sachs road of the recent vintage if anyone is looking to sell.Not for sale, but along the lines of what you're looking for. More of a 56 than a 55, though.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-csDFP8J/0/L/i-csDFP8J-L.jpg

[pdmtong]

i think there are a bunch of reasons the market for pre-owned lugged steel frames is depressed, here are a few:

1) the potential pool of buyers for such a frame is small and finite. there are probably a whole bunch of people who would like to buy a RS frame, but those with enough disposable income to actually purchase one, and the desire to have a used one is a small group.

2) the changing bike atmosphere. many people who thought they were happy with lugged steel bikes are discovering that life exists off pavement, and that aluminum, carbon and Ti bikes are a whole lot lighter. disc brakes are in vogue, fat tire clearance is in demand right now. disposable income is being diverted toward the "gravel bike" over the "classic bike"

3) i think RS makes his lugs and proprietary tubes available to other framebuilders, so if the desire for a lugged steel bike made to order is on the menu, there are more options to get such a thing new, with short waitlist and made to spec, not used.

I think we all can agree that nothing rides like steel. modern tubing and modern geo combine to make the current luuged/tig'd/fillet steel ride BETTER than the dream steel of the 80s/90s. as a result, both young and old riders can enjoy the beauty of a HAND MADE current steel bike. and, given the weight, presumably its not the only bike in their rotation. I think the market remains, albeit always small

given most modern steel can take 25/28 tires, and the newer wide rim wheels, the only thing lacking in current fashion from the latest classifieds might be a tapered HT, discs and electric only.

i think the softness just comes from the volume of available alternatives AND that the ones for sale may be outside middle bell curve sized. then again no idea why the hampco UOS, anderson, marcelo and zanc ($1100) are still around. mystery here.

[54ny77]

^^ happy, that is timeless.

[HenryA]

Why would a custom made >>anything<< based on physical size and an endless variety of personal preferences be of much value to someone else with different requirements?

Would I care at all for a pair of the very finest handmade used shoes if they were 3 sizes too small for me?

Order a custom bike for yourself, to suit yourself, but keep in mind that its not likely at all that its anything even resembling a financial investment in and of itself.

They're still worth every penny you spent when you're riding them.

[Ttx1]

Sign me up for 54 square. Cash in hand.

Worth noting: If Shimano is way down, globally, imagine what must be happening among the niche suppliers and builders.

These are discretionary puchases. You know, like artwork and tickets to political fundraisers... ATMO.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/international/2016/07/26/shimano-bike-segment-sales-decline-186-percent-first-half#.V7zqVRTEyK0

[Vonruden]

I've been looking for years for a 60-61cm RS road to go along with my gravel grinder. The white one was just a tad too small.

Meanwhile having fun on the road and dirt on this one.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/FF2A3C21-FB7E-45D9-BC4D-46C0810DC470_zpscekhrh2q.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/FF2A3C21-FB7E-45D9-BC4D-46C0810DC470_zpscekhrh2q.jpg.html)

[FlashUNC]

Why would a custom made >>anything<< based on physical size and an endless variety of personal preferences be of much value to someone else with different requirements?

Would I care at all for a pair of the very finest handmade used shoes if they were 3 sizes too small for me?

Order a custom bike for yourself, to suit yourself, but keep in mind that its not likely at all that its anything even resembling a financial investment in and of itself.

They're still worth every penny you spent when you're riding them.

I'd wager the reality is most "customs" aren't all that far off from pretty standard geometry/sizing. Maybe some tweaks at the margins, but nothing so extreme that a lot of folks can't make them work.

My DS has some tweaks -- but shorter wheelbase, lower BB, touch slacker angles -- but nothing that someone who rides a 58 couldn't handle.

Custom is relative.

[sailorboy]

There's no such thing as bad publicity, I am paraphrasing Richard here.

Who, Richard Trump?

:eek:

I'd wager at this point he doesn't need any more publicity.

[Lionel]

I've been looking for years for a 60-61cm RS road to go along with my gravel grinder. The white one was just a tad too small.

Meanwhile having fun on the road and dirt on this one.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/FF2A3C21-FB7E-45D9-BC4D-46C0810DC470_zpscekhrh2q.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/FF2A3C21-FB7E-45D9-BC4D-46C0810DC470_zpscekhrh2q.jpg.html)

I have one for you

[happycampyer]

I'd wager the reality is most "customs" aren't all that far off from pretty standard geometry/sizing. Maybe some tweaks at the margins, but nothing so extreme that a lot of folks can't make them work.

My DS has some tweaks -- but shorter wheelbase, lower BB, touch slacker angles -- but nothing that someone who rides a 58 couldn't handle.

Custom is relative.I think this is particularly true of Sachs' frames.

[dustyrider]

Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's worth all that much.

[peanutgallery]

Thought it was a little odd that Richard Sachs didn't go with with disc on his new team bikes. That being said, what does it matter, he's going to sell it anyways.younger builders need to pay attention to the market

Talk to your local bike shop, specialized one near me is moving the diverge and the roubaix like crazy without a tarmac on the floor. The tarmacs they do sell are special order. Everything that moves is disc for wider and endurance geometry, folks are spending money there. Not a lot of mention about road riding, lots of mention about adventure riding. At 46, I'd still be the youngster on the local group ride, dying scene around here.

Picked up an aluminum diverge with hydro disc a few weeks ago, having the time of my life

[TurboNate]

Richard Sachs bikes have character and charm, Richard is a character himself, in a good way. He has done very well in creating a great image and a great brand that I respect and I'm sure a lot of others do. I actually appreciate seeing what he's doing, whether is with new team bikes, classy color ways, his shop, social media, the stories that come from him and his customers, it all has a very good artisan feel to it. There is passion there. There are other builders out there that I like to follow and see what they are up too, and they have carved their niche and character as well, its all good.

I would love to own a Richard Sachs bike at some point in my life, road, cross, red, blue, green, I honestly don't have an opinion of which one I would prefer. I know that the story and the background of a Sachs will mean more to me than a mainstream cookie cutter, next best thing bike. I'm a purist, I like my bikes for their persona even when I am not riding them, I enjoy the hard rides, I like tinkering on my bikes, I like the story and experience that comes from all of that.

As long as there are guys and girls like us out there and on here talking about these things, people and brands like Richard Sachs will carry on.

ATMO

....oh yea, if you guys are looking for buyers, I dare you to post a 53-54 Richard Sachs :no:

[pdmtong]

I both like and dislike that ATMO isn't a CAD person. Saddle, reach, drop. Three measures. Dario the same.

Like the Purity in that.

Dislike the lack of CAD makes it hard to take that leap since all custom. Maybe that is why secondary market a bit suppressed.

And, let me say I enjoy seeing ATMO commentary here on Paceline again.

[dancinkozmo]

...a lot of ATMO koolaid guzzlers in the house !
oh well...less irritating than the grant peterson people :0)

[arazate]

...a lot of ATMO koolaid guzzlers in the house !
oh well...less irritating than the grant peterson people :0)

I'm both :beer:

[rustychisel]

I'm both :beer:


Please return your Paceline membership card to the mods by next available post.

But seriously, I could care less, but if there was a RS frame in my my size, at my price, in my location, I'd be on it like fleas on a mangy black dog.

[oldpotatoe]

teensy tiny steel bike used market aside, i wanna know where all the hundreds & hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of carbon bikes sold over the past 8-10 years go? seriously. is there a sea of postal treks hanging from red hooks in garage rafters? are there untold gazillions of tarmacs stuffed in basements?

here..a lot of them.

[witcombusa]

...a lot of ATMO koolaid guzzlers in the house !
oh well...less irritating than the grant peterson people :0)

There sure are!!! I've got an early ('78) and it's a nice bike to ride. Basically an east coast Masi GC ;)

As for the Peterson folks, well....

[oldpotatoe]

There sure are!!! I've got an early ('78) and it's a nice bike to ride. Basically an east coast Masi GC ;)

As for the Peterson folks, well....

Funny, don't forget Jan Heine..;):):eek::D:cool::p

[El Chaba]

What makes a bike great is *balance*....and Richard Sachs is great at building bikes with balance...No, he doesn't have a patent on it, but as time goes on and the big box makers continue to chase stiffer this lighter that and anything else that can be marketed with a number attached or otherwise, the concept of balance becomes an increasingly rare commodity. Factor in that he is a one man shop and the "list" got closed and there is an extreme element of exclusivity...or unobtainability...

[Aaron O]

There sure are!!! I've got an early ('78) and it's a nice bike to ride. Basically an east coast Masi GC ;)

As for the Peterson folks, well....

West coast masi wishes.

[Black Dog]

Please return your Paceline membership card to the mods by next available post.

But seriously, I could care less, but if there was a RS frame in my my size, at my price, in my location, I'd be on it like fleas on a mangy black dog.

Hey, I resemble that comment... :D

[William]

:d .

[tuscanyswe]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-csDFP8J/0/L/i-csDFP8J-L.jpg

Ive said it before but this is one of the best looking bikes ever in this configuration and ofc imo. Its perfect!

[Clancy]

Briefly talked w him at the Austin NAHBS. very approachable, came across humble and polite, and authentically hip in a way that only the inherently hip can pull off. Happy to talk about his craft.

Went over to the huge Moots booth, sales manager, other salesmen, tons of advertising hype.

In that venue I found Sachs far more appealing, and far less self promoting, then Moots.

ATMO

[rando]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?

[dancinkozmo]

I'm both :beer:

has your sachs been retro-fitted with a 2nd toptube ?

[pinkshogun]

At the last Builders Ball in Providence, Richard had a couple of dirty cross bikes on display, I thought that was pretty cool

[paredown]

For me, budget concerns have dictated what I can buy and so far, the Sachs (although I can see the value) have been a little too expensive, since I'm typically picking up $200 frames for experimentation.

I will at some point buy a used high-end steel frame--the short list includes the usual suspects--Sachs, Kirk and a few others of note, including a CSi if I can spot the right size at a price I can afford.

I appreciate Richard's craftsmanship, and like his approach to the craft, and know of at least one person on this board (another RBR refugee) who was over the moon when he got his Sachs, which really makes me want to try one out.

Besides, red bikes are faster, and most of his are red.:banana:

[chiasticon]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?

http://ajournalofmusicalthings.com/wp-content/uploads/Homer-confused.gif

[thirdgenbird]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-csDFP8J/0/L/i-csDFP8J-L.jpg

Ive said it before but this is one of the best looking bikes ever in this configuration and ofc imo. Its perfect!

Easy one of my top 5.

[FlashUNC]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Blackadder-Confused-Look.gif

[beeatnik]

Rando, I like your rando syntax.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rando&defid=177472

[goonster]

So much drama . . . :rolleyes:

[Bostic]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-csDFP8J/0/L/i-csDFP8J-L.jpg

Ive said it before but this is one of the best looking bikes ever in this configuration and ofc imo. Its perfect!

If a frame like this shows up in a 53cm I will outbid, out snip, whatever it takes to get my hands on it. Forget the wheels, the frame and fork are perfect.

[happycampyer]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?I've heard of google Translate, but not fuzzalo Translate. What was the original text?

[William]

I've heard of google Translate, but not fuzzalo Translate. What was the original text?

What about Dialectizer Red neck Translate?

"Jest outta curiosity, how menny of yo' went acrost th' hall t'brazenly impose yournelves on th' de facko 'right fine kid' wif this hyar quesshun of faif?

Tabled th' quesshun through varmintal co'respondence in th' hopes of ingagin' him wif a mixed media collage pasted fum fashion magazines an' old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping' an' wavin' on social media caught th' eye of noomrous cestomers fum his prime years of output who jointly decided t'make room in th' gareege fo' a drastically changed set of interests an' hopefully prexcient investments?"







:D
William

[54ny77]

I think I once ate an erudite pastiche at some fancy french restaurant. Too much garlic though.

:p



Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

[daker13]

I've heard of google Translate, but not fuzzalo Translate. What was the original text?

Good one. :beer:

[happycampyer]

I think I once ate an erudite pastiche at some fancy french restaurant. Too much garlic though.

:pIirc Erudite Pastiche was the name of the restaurant. A Keith McNally hot spot.

[fuzzalow]

I've heard of google Translate, but not fuzzalo Translate. What was the original text?

Hey, whassamatta you!? Don't drag me into this!

I don't know this guy, he don't talk like me and he don't think like me. He's doin' his own thing so leave me outta this.

I am fuzzalow and I approved this message.

[witcombusa]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-csDFP8J/0/L/i-csDFP8J-L.jpg

Ive said it before but this is one of the best looking bikes ever in this configuration and ofc imo. Its perfect!


The wheelset neuters it for me...

[shovelhd]

They're worth at least as much as the frame :)

I don't understand the snark on this thread. Richard is a great guy who makes beautiful frames. One of the best builders in the world with a long, storied history. He supports racing at both the grass roots and international level. So you don't like is social media self promotion. Ignore it. It works for him and his business. It's smart marketing.

[torquer]

These are discretionary puchases. You know, like artwork and tickets to political fundraisers.
Thread drift, to be sure, but that's not discretionary. That's a cost of doing business. (I'm in the business, sort of, so I know.)

[rando]

I think I once ate an erudite pastiche at some fancy french restaurant. Too much garlic though.

:p

Ah, sometimes your customer base can become so overexposed it's necessary to remind them how good your menu was all along. Shame on them. House specials are always a way to try something new.

[Aaron O]

They're worth at least as much as the frame :)

I don't understand the snark on this thread. Richard is a great guy who makes beautiful frames. One of the best builders in the world with a long, storied history. He supports racing at both the grass roots and international level. So you don't like is social media self promotion. Ignore it. It works for him and his business. It's smart marketing.

This takes me back to when people would get upset after a band had a successful song. Except we were in high school.

[CampyorBust]

I have never been gaga about Sachs bikes, the flock like following and the flat crown forks which I have a strong aversion to always made me meh. Having said that they look very nice and I always say oooo aaaahh when looking at pictures of them. I like his name and the logo despite it looking like a Roman/Greek/Boyar battle helmet, what did the Romans ever do for us?!

If I ever found one affordable enough and within my reach I would not hesitate to pull the trigger, realistically the chances of that are slim to none. I think his cross and gravel bikes look the biz, even with the flat crown fork (it makes practical sense in this application). Plenty of other amazing builders out there, when talking this kind of $ and wait time - I would rather ride something unique-er this year. I for one am gaga for Gangl.

[enr1co]

my take is that the two in the classifieds are just rather large, and thus have a smaller market for potential buyers who will fit them. one is also repainted a color differing from the iconic paint scheme; though it is still a beautiful bike. they're asking great prices for them, they just have less potential buyers than other if they were 54-56cm bikes.

there was also a guy searching high and low in the classifieds for a 55. that's a size that would likely be scooped up immediately at $2k, but he couldn't find one (or maybe he has now, I don't know). across the hall, an older silver 54 w/10 speed record sold more or less immediately for $3200 a couple months back.

anyway, I think demand is there, and $2k-2500 is a fair price, depending on condition. it's just the sizes in the middle of the spectrum sell easier.

Yep- it's just those tall guys opting to ride on plastic bikes ;).
Pre owned size 54-56 in that $2-2500 price range typically are scooped up faster than TI King cages :)
The grey one on this posting sold in minutes
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f3/1980s-richard-sachs-bicycle-relisted-44638.html
If It or something comparable ever shows up again, would just pull the trigger with paypal / 6 months same as cash and figure out what to pawn off afterwards to pay it off.

[weisan]

just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?

"鵬飛萬里，其志豈群鳥能識哉? 譬如人染沈痾, 當先用糜粥以飲之, 和藥以服之;待其腑臟調和, 形體漸安, 然後用肉食以補之, 猛藥以治之: 則病根盡去, 人得全生也. 若不待氣脈和緩, 便投以猛藥厚味, 欲求安保, 誠為難矣. 吾主劉豫州, 向日軍敗於汝南, 寄跡劉表, 兵不滿千, 將止關, 張, 趙雲而已; 此正如病勢尪羸已極之時也. 新野山僻小縣, 人民稀少, 糧食鮮薄, 豫州不過暫借以容身, 豈真將坐守於此耶? 夫以甲兵不完, 城郭不固, 軍不經練, 糧不繼日, 然而博望燒屯, 白河用水, 使夏侯惇, 曹仁輩心驚膽裂. 竊謂管仲, 樂毅之用兵, 未必過此. 至於劉琮降操, 豫州實出不知; 且又不忍乘亂奪同宗之基業, 此真大仁大義也. 當陽之敗, 豫州見有數十萬赴義之民, 扶老攜幼相隨, 不忍棄之, 日行十里 , 不思進取江陵, 甘與同敗, 此亦大仁大義也. 寡不敵眾, 勝負乃其常事. 昔高皇數敗於項羽, 而垓下一戰成功, 此非韓信之良謀乎? 夫信久事高皇, 未嘗累勝. 蓋國家大計, 社稷安危, 是有主謀, 非比誇辯之徒, 虛譽欺人, ──坐議立談, 無人可及; 臨機應變, 百無一能. 誠為天下笑耳!"

[classtimesailer]

Briefly talked w him at the Austin NAHBS. very approachable, came across humble and polite, and authentically hip in a way that only the inherently hip can pull off. Happy to talk about his craft.

Went over to the huge Moots booth, sales manager, other salesmen, tons of advertising hype.

In that venue I found Sachs far more appealing, and far less self promoting, then Moots.

ATMO

Shoot!! This reminded me that I should have gone down to Austin and had my picture taken with Richard along with my bare frame that was on display. Then, when my Great, Great, Grandchildren are featured on the "Antiques Road Show", they would have my "old" bike and that picture for the maximum appraised value.

[happycampyer]

Hey, whassamatta you!? Don't drag me into this!

I don't know this guy, he don't talk like me and he don't think like me. He's doin' his own thing so leave me outta this.

I am fuzzalow and I approved this message.I meant to follow up with, "with apologies to fuzzalow" (and separate apologies for misspelling fuzzalow).

[Len J]

It's always fascinating to read a thread on Sachs bikes. They tend to be equal parts haters and people that love his bikes, very few middle ground. Not sure why that is, but it's very consistent.

I rode my very first Sachs in the mid 80's when I hooked up with an owner on a charity ride. After pulling for each other for 40 miles or so and realizing we were the same size, he volunteered to switch bikes for the next 20 miles or so. I had been riding bikes seriously at that point for 20 years or so and thought I had ridden some great bikes, but I was floored by the combination of handling, tracking, weight distribution and how confidence inspiring the bike was. Owning a Sachs went on my wish list. Finally almost 20 years later on my 49th Birthday in 2004, I put my deposit down. And then I waited.

I knew I would have to wait and filled my time with other bike projects, riding, and other hobbies. 30 months later or so, I went to Conn (at the time) for a personal fitting. Spent an afternoon talking, riding and being fitted by Richard. a few months later, I went up an picked the bike up.

Since then, I've put 10's of thousands of miles on the bike. It fits like a glove and no matter how hard I push it, it responds. It's the most confidence inspiring bike I've ever ridden...hard stop. I'd buy another in a heartbeat, if something happened to it. Of all the bikes I've owned, there aren't many I would honestly say that about.

I never bought it to retain value or to make money on it, I bought it for the pure joy of riding it. I haven't been disappointed. One of these days I need to have it repainted.

Len

[Dave B]

It's always fascinating to read a thread on Sachs bikes. They tend to be equal parts haters and people that love his bikes, very few middle ground. Not sure why that is, but it's very consistent.

I rode my very first Sachs in the mid 80's when I hooked up with an owner on a charity ride. After pulling for each other for 40 miles or so and realizing we were the same size, he volunteered to switch bikes for the next 20 miles or so. I had been riding bikes seriously at that point for 20 years or so and thought I had ridden some great bikes, but I was floored by the combination of handling, tracking, weight distribution and how confidence inspiring the bike was. Owning a Sachs went on my wish list. Finally almost 20 years later on my 49th Birthday in 2004, I put my deposit down. And then I waited.

I knew I would have to wait and filled my time with other bike projects, riding, and other hobbies. 30 months later or so, I went to Conn (at the time) for a personal fitting. Spent an afternoon talking, riding and being fitted by Richard. a few months later, I went up an picked the bike up.

Since then, I've put 10's of thousands of miles on the bike. It fits like a glove and no matter how hard I push it, it responds. It's the most confidence inspiring bike I've ever ridden...hard stop. I'd buy another in a heartbeat, if something happened to it. Of all the bikes I've owned, there aren't many I would honestly say that about.

I never bought it to retain value or to make money on it, I bought it for the pure joy of riding it. I haven't been disappointed. One of these days I need to have it repainted.

Len

love that, bike and thoughts.

[livingminimal]

They're worth at least as much as the frame :)

I don't understand the snark on this thread. Richard is a great guy who makes beautiful frames. One of the best builders in the world with a long, storied history. He supports racing at both the grass roots and international level. So you don't like is social media self promotion. Ignore it. It works for him and his business. It's smart marketing.

Honestly? a lot of it is jealousy.

Richie lives a pretty cool, pretty relaxed life where he calls the shots. He's got a nice house in CT (his new place is really cool, but so was his old place) he's got a great wife, a happy life. He rides every day, watches womens UCONN Bball obsessively, hangs with the dog, builds amazing bicycles at home (with 100% job security), and gets to travel every weekend during cross season and support a team of kick ass people.

Haters are jealous, because Richie is happy, confident, and content, and lives a pretty charmed life. You know what? He's earned every bit of it.

[54ny77]

Hmmmm didn't they film scenes from Sex & the City there?

http://67.media.tumblr.com/dd318aca52052be71c6bebfbe689821e/tumblr_nt8qb9FUXg1uy7tc0o1_500.gif



Iirc Erudite Pastiche was the name of the restaurant. A Keith McNally hot spot.

[fuzzalow]

I meant to follow up with, "with apologies to fuzzalow" (and separate apologies for misspelling fuzzalow).

No additional comment necessary. This is all in fun. Dontworryboudit.

[gdw]

This thread would be much more entertaining if viper and girlie were still around.:banana:

[weisan]

This thread would be much more entertaining if viper and girlie were still around.:banana:

And Jerk pal...

[donevwil]

It's always fascinating to read a thread on Sachs bikes. They tend to be equal parts haters and people that love his bikes, very few middle ground. Not sure why that is, but it's very consistent....

Len

Most of those in the middle don't have an "opinion" to defend and, therefore, don't post anything.

[Dave B]

This thread would be much more entertaining if viper and girlie were still around.:banana:

Swoop





I actually do mis Sandy though and what was his dog, King?

[ThasFACE]

Not for sale, but along the lines of what you're looking for. More of a 56 than a 55, though.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-csDFP8J/0/L/i-csDFP8J-L.jpg

That looks fantastic.

If anyone has a 56/57 that they're looking to move...

[mg2ride]

Relentless self-promotion.

To the contrary. The demand for his bikes on the used market started to decline a few years ago when he backed off from posting online every other minute. He effectively came out and said he was pairing it down. 5 years ago there is zero chance he would have not replied to this thread, even if it had been one of his alter egos.

In this day and age, it requires relentless self-promotion to stay relevant. He no longer does so he no longer is.

[Kirk007]

In this day and age, it requires relentless self-promotion to stay relevant. He no longer does so he no longer is.

Relevant to who? The ethereal marketplace? I suspect that for those interested in lugged hand built steel frames with steel forks that Sachs will always be relevant.

[crossjunkee]

Not a draw anymore?? They never were a draw, at least to me, haha!

[Dave B]

11 pages filled with opinions...I say Richard still draws attention. ;)


The man can build a hell of a nice bike...you cannot deny that. Some folks just want that experience. Some don't.


He is a good man as well and that is important to me.

[gdw]

Hey cross, how did you do in the 100?

[JLNK]

As someone who actually owns a Richard Sachs frameset, I also currently own or have owned steel frames from Concorde, Serotta, Waterford, and Lighthouse. The Sachs frame has it's own character in ride, handling, and comfort. While it may not be of interest for everyone I am glad I have one of his frames.

[crossjunkee]

Hey cross, how did you do in the 100?

Wow, what a great race! The excitement before the start was like nothing I've ever felt before in a race. I didn't do what I wanted to do but still had a great time. My family loved it too. My daughter had a ball with all the other kids at Twin Lakes (I was worried about her being bored sitting there all day). I learned that it's virtually impossible for me to get the time I want unless I can move a couple more corrals at the start. I was forced to walk all of Kevins, there was no place to go, so many people! I didn't really break free until the top Powerline. After that it was smooth sailing. I'm heading to AZ for the Barn Burner with hopes of a qualifier coin, and a corral position bump up! I have the Leadville bug really bad now and the La Plata Grande buckle is my goal. Thanks, for asking.

[Jeff N.]

And Jerk pal...I own Jerk-pal's (C. Gaulzetti) RS. Have no idea why it was sold and don't care...it's perfection... I like to think RS put a little more effort into it since it was being built for another respected builder! Never thought in a million years I could find one in my large size requirement...would've never paid 5K+ for a new one and waiting that long for a frame is, IMO, preposterous. If there's one thing to not like about this frame (and this subject has previously been beaten into the ground) it's the 11: 30 location of the rear brake cable stops. Notwithstanding that, I'll take this one to the grave. -Jeff N.

[PoppaWheelie]

Holy crow. Not sure how I missed this thread since it is 50% about my bike for sale. Here I just thought I needed to raise some cash for CX...

I looked and looked for that frame and it rides wonderfully. Richard did a great job with the fork. It is a beautiful thing with a discernible hand to it and I think there will always be people around who like that sort of thing. That Sachs quality (or whatever you might call it) will always be there for me, but then again, I'm old and grew up riding and racing bikes that sorta looked the same.

I see the discounts in the light of supply and a soft'ish market. There are two of them for sale in the same size and in my ad the photo of the little dent makes it look a lot worse than it is...I'd rather over-qualify than see someone surprised. Ain't no big thing if it doesn't move...likely in 6 months I'll totally regret selling it anyway, if history is any guide.

[crossjunkee]

I own Jerk-pal's RS. Have no idea why it was sold and don't care...it's perfection. Never thought in a million years I could find one in my large size requirement...would've never paid 5K+ for a new one and waiting that long for a frame is, IMO, preposterous. I'll take this one to the grave. -Jeff N.

Since I've been here through thick and thin, even before the Paceline was the Paceline, that's cool to see! Check the tubes for moldy twizzlers, ATMO!

[pdmtong]

in addition to lack of CAD specifics, another characteristic of RS frames that may hamper resale or promote changing of hands is that they all reflect a particular design philosophy - the resultant geometry is not one everyone can fit into - example no RS with tall HT, overly short eTT versus ST, etc. - all reflect his ideals of a balanced geometry. lots of folks may take a flyer and buy one used (since not on list) and then find out not quite working so they go up for sale again.

specifically you won't find a RS 56 eTT with a 20cm HT while this same geo may indeed be found in a Bedford for example.

[Lionel]

Had a lot of steel bikes. Only kept one.

https://c3.staticflickr.com/2/1548/25225019714_ac9484af7b_h.jpg

[OtayBW]

I've heard of google Translate, but not fuzzalo Translate. What was the original text?http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j42/zelmo_2006/rosetta_stone01.jpg (http://s77.photobucket.com/user/zelmo_2006/media/rosetta_stone01.jpg.html)

;)

[Peter P.]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?

Google Translate must not be working: I plug in this quote and nothing comes out.

[arazate]

has your sachs been retro-fitted with a 2nd toptube ?

Not yet;) But, I do have a bright orange, double top-tubed Rivendell Bombadil, sits nicely next to my surly big dummy (army green, with the sweeping top tube)

I enjoy all type of bikes; I'm fortunate enough to have quite a few.

[cnighbor1]

I see multiple in the classifieds that have been sitting for a while and drastically reduced from their original prices. not sure if the original prices were too lofty or what. a check of ebay sold listings seems to verify that even the current asking prices of the RS frames on here are a little too high, even at their reduced prices.

what's going on?

I tried to see a new Richard Sachs frame once 54cm Here on Paceline and Craigslist. I sure didn't much interest and almost no questions You would think I would have got some question at least
buyer when he got it was amazed at quality go figure

[eddief]

who got paid by Richard for doing this?

[jlwdm]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you went across the hall to brazenly impose yourselves on the de facto 'cool kid' with this question of faith?

Tabled the question through personal correspondence in the hopes of engaging him with a mixed media collage pasted from fashion magazines and old tomes of erudite pastiche?

Considered his flapping and waving on social media caught the eye of numerous customers from his prime years of output who jointly decided to make room in the garage for a drastically changed set of interests and hopefully prescient investments?

??????

Edit: Peter P. Sorry I did not see your much better response when I posted.

Jeff

[happycampyer]

...a lot of ATMO koolaid guzzlers in the house !
oh well...less irritating than the grant peterson people :0)This made me think that Richard should reach out to Hershey's and Kraft to see if they would collaborate to make a special batch of Twizzler-flavored Kool-Aid.

[Aaron O]

This made me think that Richard should reach out to Hershey's and Kraft to see if they would collaborate to make a special batch of Twizzler-flavored Kool-Aid.

At least people care about his products :cool:

When someone cares enough to buy a bike with your name on it, lemmee know.

[FlashUNC]

Rule #1 in marketing/pro wrestling. The worst thing is for people to be apathetic about you.

Folks are a lot of things about Richard, but apparently apathetic ain't one of 'em.

[happycampyer]

At least people care about his products :cool:

When someone cares enough to buy a bike with your name on it, lemmee know.???

My response to dancinkozmo was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I'm not sure who he was referring to as "ATMO koolaid guzzlers," but I assume he would include me (as an owner of a Sachs (although not built for me) and a fan of Richard's work).

it's amazing how worked up people get about sporting goods.

[Aaron O]

???

My response to dancinkozmo was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I'm not sure who he was referring to as "ATMO koolaid guzzlers," but I assume he would include me (as an owner of a Sachs and a fan of Richard's work).

it's amazing how worked up people get about sporting goods.

It's more running people that I like down anonymously on the net that gets me worked up, but if I misread your intent, feel free to dismiss.

[pdmtong]

It's more running people that I like down anonymously on the net that gets me worked up, but if I misread your intent, feel free to dismiss.It's more running people (that I like) down, anonymously, on the net, that gets me worked up; but if I misread your intent, feel free to dismiss.

Had to read that twice. Happy and ATMO are cool. He owns one after all.

[steamer]

Most of those in the middle don't have an "opinion" to defend and, therefore, don't post anything.
Yeah. I don't really care. People gotta eat.

With all manner of actual BS artists in the world out there causing real problems, it's hard to get upset about a guy who is able to command high prices for his product. If his customers are somehow not getting full value, consider that it's a crime only against their disposable income.

[pbarry]

who got paid by Richard for doing this?

Post of the day! RS is good too IMO. :beer: for all.

[Bob Ross]

I don't know how much of a draw his used frames are, but I've discovered first-hand how much of a draw his new frames are: Since acquiring mine in March I not only get the (somewhat expected) "Nice bike!" compliments from fellow cyclists regularly, but on two separate occasions I've been approached by someone in civvies who literally ran across the street just to admire my bike. It was almost uncomfortable, like being stalked. Clearly they are a draw.

[Dead Man]

I don't know how much of a draw his used frames are, but I've discovered first-hand how much of a draw his new frames are: Since acquiring mine in March I not only get the (somewhat expected) "Nice bike!" compliments from fellow cyclists regularly, but on two separate occasions I've been approached by someone in civvies who literally ran across the street just to admire my bike. It was almost uncomfortable, like being stalked. Clearly they are a draw.

This is weird to me.. Even being a bike guy - and though I'm not really into steel, at least am exposed to it enough to be able to handily identify the different joining methods and can spot custom lug work and etc - if you stripped the decals off a Sachs frame I really don't think I'd recognize it as anything other than any other "nice" steel frame. If the geo was unique I might be able to throw a guess that it's custom. That's about it. Are these people bike people who really know their steel, or what? Are they complimenting your riding an ancient-looking old steel frame, being used to seeing fat-tubed McTrekspecialgiants, or are they actually recognizing fine custom steel?

reminds me of a funny thing from a recent car commute... As I sat in frustrating rush hour traffic in Scappoose, a little town commuting distance from Portland in the poorest county in Oregon, I see this dude up ahead coming along on a steel road bike on the sidewalk going against traffic, mtb helmet, backpack, big gut, kinda wobbly as he rides the bumps and driveway cutouts and dodges sign posts... I wasn't particularly drawn to the frame, but usually I see these guys on crappy department store mtbs, so I was kinda curious what he was riding... Assumed it was some cheap steel - All City or similar sub-$1k road bike at best.

Guy comes up parallel to me.... "WATERFORD" up the down tube. Well bite my tongue!

But aside from the brand on the side, how would I have known? One steel frame is much the same as another, unless it's got some crazy lugwork or uniquely bent tubing, right? Up close, I could spot good welding.. But from dozens of feet away, no way.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm just that ignorant though.

[Gsinill]

This is weird to me.. Even being a bike guy - and though I'm not really into steel, at least am exposed to it enough to be able to handily identify the different joining methods and can spot custom lug work and etc - if you stripped the decals off a Sachs frame I really don't think I'd recognize it as anything other than any other "nice" steel frame. If the geo was unique I might be able to throw a guess that it's custom. That's about it. Are these people bike people who really know their steel, or what? Are they complimenting your riding an ancient-looking old steel frame, being used to seeing fat-tubed McTrekspecialgiants, or are they actually recognizing fine custom steel?

reminds me of a funny thing from a recent car commute... As I sat in frustrating rush hour traffic in Scappoose, a little town commuting distance from Portland in the poorest county in Oregon, I see this dude up ahead coming along on a steel road bike on the sidewalk going against traffic, mtb helmet, backpack, big gut, kinda wobbly as he rides the bumps and driveway cutouts and dodges sign posts... I wasn't particularly drawn to the frame, but usually I see these guys on crappy department store mtbs, so I was kinda curious what he was riding... Assumed it was some cheap steel - All City or similar sub-$1k road bike at best.

Guy comes up parallel to me.... "WATERFORD" up the down tube. Well bite my tongue!

But aside from the brand on the side, how would I have known? One steel frame is much the same as another, unless it's got some crazy lugwork or uniquely bent tubing, right? Up close, I could spot good welding.. But from dozens of feet away, no way.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm just that ignorant though.

Don't dare to comment but I predict that this post will add another 12 pages to this thread ;)

[Big Dan]

Yeah that post says more about who posted it than about Sachs.

[Dead Man]

Yeah that post says more about who posted it than about Sachs.

It wasn't supposed to say ANYTHING about Sachs

I am not critical of Sachs (guess my first post in this thread is now thoroughly buried). And I have absolutely no doubt that steel enthusiasts can readily identify the qualities of a Sachs frame.

[sandyrs]

It wasn't supposed to say ANYTHING about Sachs

I am not critical of Sachs (guess my first post in this thread is now thoroughly buried). And I have absolutely no doubt that steel enthusiasts can readily identify the qualities of a Sachs frame.

I'd assumed they could read the logo or at least see the general outline of it (it's pretty distinctive) from across a street while the bike was not moving. Don't think it's that weird.

[mg2ride]

I don't know how much of a draw his used frames are, but I've discovered first-hand how much of a draw his new frames are: Since acquiring mine in March I not only get the (somewhat expected) "Nice bike!" compliments from fellow cyclists regularly, but on two separate occasions I've been approached by someone in civvies who literally ran across the street just to admire my bike. It was almost uncomfortable, like being stalked. Clearly they are a draw.

I guess it is relative to where you live. I often ride my Atlanta with a friend that has a Sachs. I get the occasional "Cool Bike" comment and he gets nothing. Not that he cares, it a Kick Ass bike by any standards.

[velofinds]

Are these people bike people who really know their steel, or what? Are they complimenting your riding an ancient-looking old steel frame, being used to seeing fat-tubed McTrekspecialgiants, or are they actually recognizing fine custom steel?

I think what you're seeing here is numbers at work. There are a lot of people in NYC. A number of them ride bikes. Among that number, there is a sizable contingent of custom bike aficionados. And besides, I would think that these are the people whose eyes gravitate the most toward bikes (certainly, I would describe myself as being among that group).

(This, of course, assumes that Bob Ross rides his RS in and around the city.)

[everbeek]

...I have absolutely no doubt that steel enthusiasts can readily identify the qualities of a Sachs frame.

I had a custom frame from a small local builder in NC from 1985-1999. He was able to put tubes together without overcooking the steel. It was, in hindsight, a truly horrible bike. I got an RS in 1999. The qualities of a Sachs (Kirk, Kellogg, Bedford, Kvale, Dinucci) are not in what you see but in the knowledge that you are almost certainly fit onto a bike that is perfect for you.
-Mike

[rando]

I think what you're seeing here is numbers at work. There are a lot of people in NYC. A number of them ride bikes. Among that number, there is a sizable contingent of custom bike aficionados. And besides, I would think that these are the people whose eyes gravitate the most toward bikes (certainly, I would describe myself as being among that group).

Especially in NYC, I'd feel confident you could paint and decal almost any otherwise ordinary lugged bike to look like a brand spanking new Coquelicot Sachs and it would fool 99% of people. Especially if you hang some understated self importance on the word Coquelicot. Much like the internet, the real world is full of knowitall's willing to literally jump to associate themselves with anything casting a glow of exclusivity in their immediate area.

[Bob Ross]

Are these people bike people who really know their steel, or what? Are they complimenting your riding an ancient-looking old steel frame, being used to seeing fat-tubed McTrekspecialgiants, or are they actually recognizing fine custom steel?

Presuming you're asking about the two folks in civvies who ran across the street...

I'd assumed they could read the logo or at least see the general outline of it (it's pretty distinctive) from across a street while the bike was not moving.

...they almost certainly recognized the logo on the downtube. One guy even said "I thought I recognized the logo but your pump covers it slightly so I had to be sure." That's about the time I started to think this was kinda creepy.


(This, of course, assumes that Bob Ross rides his RS in and around the city.)

What's really weird is that both instances happened at exactly the same intersection, albeit separated in time by several weeks: West 178th Street and Fort Washington Avenue right under the GWB bus station. Perhaps amongst that niche of a niche of a niche -- "cycling enthusiasts who appreciate handbuilt steel frames" -- there's yet another sub niche: "...and who commute from NJ to NYC by bus in the morning." ?

[pdmtong]

Don't dare to comment but I predict that this post will add another 12 pages to this thread ;)

I get the spirit of the idea.

take the Anderson in the classifieds. same lugs as used on my vanilla.

no paint, I bet at first glance, fork aside, most folks cant tell which is which. maybe all folks cant tell. unless they notice my downtube is swaged (larger diameter at the BB)

simplifying it to first glance does a disservice to the builder...since its not just lugs and tubes welded. its the choice of tubes, the placement of tubes, the lug work (filing, shaping, etc.), then the welding and the builder's flourishes. and all joined based on that builders geo philosophies.

BTW, I loved that Anderson when it was in Florida. Would have bought it first time from J and would have bought it now but its a mirror to what I already have.

[rounder]

Swoop





I actually do mis Sandy though and what was his dog, King?

I met Sandy...Good guy. He signed my hat. Those were good times on the Serotta forum.

[charliedid]

It wasn't supposed to say ANYTHING about Sachs

I am not critical of Sachs (guess my first post in this thread is now thoroughly buried). And I have absolutely no doubt that steel enthusiasts can readily identify the qualities of a Sachs frame.

A) I don't understand what the frame material has to do with your assertion. what if it was not made of steel, then what? What sort of enthusiast (regarding frame material) are you and what characteristics can you readily glean from a cursory glance of say a carbon bike, should that be your flavor?

B) Sometimes it's a matter of who you care to do business with and who you want to give your money to.

Bikes!

[montag]

Especially in NYC, I'd feel confident you could paint and decal almost any otherwise ordinary lugged bike to look like a brand spanking new Coquelicot Sachs and it would fool 99% of people. Especially if you hang some understated self importance on the word Coquelicot. Much like the internet, the real world is full of knowitall's willing to literally jump to associate themselves with anything casting a glow of exclusivity in their immediate area.

This (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/29/damon-baehrel-the-most-exclusive-restaurant-in-america) is a great article in this week's New Yorker that addresses the relationship between exclusivity and perception. This passage stuck out to me:

"The morsel was delicious, though it was difficult—and would continue to be, during the next four hours—for an amateur and glutton like me (in fact, for anyone who is being honest with himself) to tell whether my appreciation, fervent as it often became, had been enhanced by the description of the work and the ingredients that had gone into it. The tongue is suggestible. New words register as new flavors. As numerous blind wine tastings over the years have demonstrated, you taste what you want to taste."


I wholeheartedly believe this applies just as much to bicycles as it does food, or any other craft, really.

[bitpuddle]

I never bought it to retain value or to make money on it, I bought it for the pure joy of riding it. I haven't been disappointed. One of these days I need to have it repainted.

Len

This is beautiful; thanks for posting it. Makes me happy to see.

[oldpotatoe]

Briefly talked w him at the Austin NAHBS. very approachable, came across humble and polite, and authentically hip in a way that only the inherently hip can pull off. Happy to talk about his craft.

Went over to the huge Moots booth, sales manager, other salesmen, tons of advertising hype.

In that venue I found Sachs far more appealing, and far less self promoting, then Moots.

ATMO

Apples and bananas. One is essentially a 'hobby' vocation involving one person..the other a mid range, titanium bicycle business that makes about 1200 frames a year employing about 22 people.

Did you talk to Jon Carivou? If you did, I think he would be in the RS mold. Talk to Butch, lead welder?..also in that RS category, except he doesn't suffer timid people well. :)

[quauhnahuac]

idk anything about richard sachs other than he's a framebuilder, he seems to come across as a :butt:, and people like or hate his bikes. I have zero interaction other than reading his comments occasionally (which is how I know how he comes across). so this thread is based on what I see in rs bike sales threads.

Maybe it's just how the used market has always been and maybe I'm misreading people's comments on ads. For example, the black sport touring that's available now. I see that and think, okay someone's selling another RS bike. Comments on these ads are universally along the lines of "deal of the century" and "this won't last long." Which leads me to believe it's a good deal and will go fast. A month later with multiple price drops..."surprised this is still here."

Same w/ Papa Wheelie's bike that recently sold, that was on for a ridiculously long time with comments on how great a deal it was. A long time later and almost halving the original asking price and it finally moves.

So, here's my thought process: rs bike gets posted, lots of comments saying how great it is and how it's a great deal and it will be gone quick, sits for a long time with a bunch of price drops, finally probably sells eventually. if you didn't know anything about this manufacturer you would see that and assume there's a lot of hype that doesn't seem to pan out. I see lots of things that are truly great deals on here and you have to race to buy them otherwise they're gone in minutes. sitting for six months with lots of price drops and hype leads me to believe that 1.) it wasn't that great a deal to begin with and 2.) for people to hype it so much it must mean that this would have been a great deal in some prior era. Hence the thread, looks like they're not a draw anymore.

[malcolm]

Slagging Richie as a shameless self-promoter or whatever is nauseating.

Dude is utilizing social media to share decades upon decades of perfecting a craft of building bicycles, something few of us can do, but a process that creates something that all of us universally love, in some cases second only to our families. He's not soliciting your order, but he is giving us a deeper look at how a master craftsman works and a whole ****ton of history of bicycle fabrication. Otherwise, he's promoting a cyclocross team that people give money and product to be a part of, and that he unflinchingly supports 100%, giving people the chance to ride their bikes hard with full support and maybe even make a few bucks.

I'm no sycophant (and full-disclosure I don't know Richie well enough to call him my friend, but we do talk semi-regularly), but people that are complaining that he self-promotes may want to check themselves. I am not about to tell the UVerse repair guy how to fix my digital receiver, but I'll be damned if I am not going to listen to him on how to fix it and manipulate it, and then enjoy his expertise when he's finished.

I agree. Over the past few years there seems to be a small group here always ready to disparage Sachs. I don't know if it's related to the old days before the break up and across the hall but I've noticed it.
Richard was certainly one of the cool kids here back in the day and lots of them had the inside jokes/lingo/etc going on, but other than not getting it I was never hurt by it.
We are not friends and have only communicated a couple times via emails in over a decade, but I've always found him to be helpful and generous with knowledge. Lets face it Richard probably has more time with a torch than any builder you can think of. I've never seen a sachs of any size that didn't just look right, same with many other top shelf builders.
As far as self promotion goes even back when his list was open but long 3-4 years I've seen him steer prospective clients to other builders with less wait.
I'm not defending him because I don't need to and don't have a dog in the hunt. It just baffles me because I can't think of one episode over the years where he's been anything other than helpful or ever really been a jerk even when it would have been easy.
Maybe the folks that have a problem need to look more closely at themselves.

[malcolm]

idk anything about richard sachs other than he's a framebuilder, he seems to come across as a :butt:, and people like or hate his bikes. I have zero interaction other than reading his comments occasionally (which is how I know how he comes across). so this thread is based on what I see in rs bike sales threads.

Maybe it's just how the used market has always been and maybe I'm misreading people's comments on ads. For example, the black sport touring that's available now. I see that and think, okay someone's selling another RS bike. Comments on these ads are universally along the lines of "deal of the century" and "this won't last long." Which leads me to believe it's a good deal and will go fast. A month later with multiple price drops..."surprised this is still here."

Same w/ Papa Wheelie's bike that recently sold, that was on for a ridiculously long time with comments on how great a deal it was. A long time later and almost halving the original asking price and it finally moves.

So, here's my thought process: rs bike gets posted, lots of comments saying how great it is and how it's a great deal and it will be gone quick, sits for a long time with a bunch of price drops, finally probably sells eventually. if you didn't know anything about this manufacturer you would see that and assume there's a lot of hype that doesn't seem to pan out. I see lots of things that are truly great deals on here and you have to race to buy them otherwise they're gone in minutes. sitting for six months with lots of price drops and hype leads me to believe that 1.) it wasn't that great a deal to begin with and 2.) for people to hype it so much it must mean that this would have been a great deal in some prior era. Hence the thread, looks like they're not a draw anymore.

I don't disagree with your synopsis but I don't get your assessment of Richard himself. I guess I've been around reading his posts for longer so maybe I just take him differently. He has opinions and ideas that sometimes I don't get or don't agree with but I've never taken anything he has posted as being an ass. I just haven't seen it.

[fuzzalow]

Maybe the folks that have a problem need to look more closely at themselves.

Ad hominem. That is all.

No interest in getting drawn into this topic.

[malcolm]

Ad hominem. That is all.

No interest in getting drawn into this topic.

Well if you're not interested why did you respond??

[fuzzalow]

Well if you're not interested why did you respond??

I wasn't responding to the topic. I was responding to your ad hominem, capish?

[Big Dan]

Limited market (lugged steel), plus the price premium requested by sellers works against the quick movement of frames.
These are not your usual $400 used frame.

[malcolm]

I wasn't responding to the topic. I was responding to your ad hominem, capish?


Glad to know that you read all threads and respond to perceived attacks. I feel much better today knowing my behavior is being monitored. Superfuzz saves the day.
thank you, capish

[93legendti]

I don't disagree with your synopsis but I don't get your assessment of Richard himself. I guess I've been around reading his posts for longer so maybe I just take him differently. He has opinions and ideas that sometimes I don't get or don't agree with but I've never taken anything he has posted as being an ass. I just haven't seen it.

Re Richard, I am surprised by the cheap shots/personal attacks against him.

I think the economy is the biggest factor here. GDP growth is what, 1.1%?

[oliver1850]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=165453

same frame under Wiggins and Froome in successive years winning tdf (that doesn't mean anything to me personally, but the point is, this aint a ****ing fuji)
The F8 is different a bit, but could any of us REALLY tell the difference performance-wise?

Retailed for 3700 sterling, 6800USD I believe, roughly.

thirteen hundred freaking dollars.

Wasn't a Fuji under the Vuelta winner a few years back?

[livingminimal]

Wasn't a Fuji under the Vuelta winner a few years back?

Probably. They're under lots of pros. They're under lots of race winners.

The point is more price point and prestige/standing (whether you value that or otherwise, it exists). Few people are ever going to conflate the two brands and their output.

[beeatnik]

quauhnahuac, I don't like your disingenuous style.

idk anything about richard sachs other than he's a framebuilder, he seems to come across as a :butt:, and people like or hate his bikes. I have zero interaction other than reading his comments occasionally (which is how I know how he comes across). so this thread is based on what I see in rs bike sales threads.

Maybe it's just how the used market has always been and maybe I'm misreading people's comments on ads. For example, the black sport touring that's available now. I see that and think, okay someone's selling another RS bike. Comments on these ads are universally along the lines of "deal of the century" and "this won't last long." Which leads me to believe it's a good deal and will go fast. A month later with multiple price drops..."surprised this is still here."

Same w/ Papa Wheelie's bike that recently sold, that was on for a ridiculously long time with comments on how great a deal it was. A long time later and almost halving the original asking price and it finally moves.

So, here's my thought process: rs bike gets posted, lots of comments saying how great it is and how it's a great deal and it will be gone quick, sits for a long time with a bunch of price drops, finally probably sells eventually. if you didn't know anything about this manufacturer you would see that and assume there's a lot of hype that doesn't seem to pan out. I see lots of things that are truly great deals on here and you have to race to buy them otherwise they're gone in minutes. sitting for six months with lots of price drops and hype leads me to believe that 1.) it wasn't that great a deal to begin with and 2.) for people to hype it so much it must mean that this would have been a great deal in some prior era. Hence the thread, looks like they're not a draw anymore.

[false_Aest]

Holy ****. This thread is still going . . .

Must be February.

Albie, let's go for a ride.

[rando]

I wasn't responding to the topic. I was responding to your ad hominem, capish?

I'm starting to see where the comparison was drawn.

[Gsinill]

idk anything about richard sachs other than he's a framebuilder, he seems to come across as a :butt:, and people like or hate his bikes.

Not sure what makes you think this way.
I have communicated with him a few times mostly to get info and advice on used RS frames/bikes, some that I was interested in and one that I own.

We never met, I am not on his waiting list and probably never will be so he could give a rat's "you know what" about me, nevertheless he always responded and helped out.

Maybe it's your stereotype about how a frame builder should express and carry himself that he does not meet?

[peanutgallery]

Safe spaces everyone, safe spaces

Get off the interwebs and go ride, or go watch todays MXGP. It was a barn burner in sand and rain with ruts bigger than some egos around here

[gdw]

+1. Hopefully the mods will find a way to incorporate trigger warnings into thread titles so those of us who are easily offended can avoid controversial topics such as this one.

[OtayBW]

I wasn't responding to the topic. I was responding to your ad hominem, capish?

Glad to know that you read all threads and respond to perceived attacks. I feel much better today knowing my behavior is being monitored. Superfuzz saves the day.
thank you, capish
"Paging the Spelling Police: Can we get a spell check on aisle 3 please?? 'Spelling police to aisle 3 please...."
(since we're on a roll....). :p

[saab2000]

One thing I've learned from forums and reality is that forums and reality aren't the same thing.

I've gotten to know Richard a bit from having attended bike shows and from having participated in cycling events with him. His in-person personality isn't the same as his online personality. Same probably applies to all of us.

The internet brings out the best and the worst in all of us and that's never been more true than in this thread.

The price of used sporting goods is hardly a reliable barometer on someone's character or personality. Custom bikes are worth only what someone will pay for them.

I have owned numerous Serottas over the years and they were all a small fraction of the original, new price. Should I start a thread questioning Ben Serotta's character or personality based on the price I paid for a used piece of sporting equipment? Seems pretty ridiculous.

If you want to meet Richard, show up at a bike show or a race. He's good stuff and I can't believe this thread made it past about 4 posts.

Go ride people!

[Aaron O]

This whole thread has been repetitive and worthless for a couple of days. Let's get on to more important questions, like:

Who would win in a fistfight? Richard Sachs or Grant Peterson?
Which material makes for the best spork?
Which frame builders are most likely to support an end to obligatory encores at concerts?
Who is Peter Mooney's favorite Beatle?
Who is Dave Kirk's favorite Darren?

[El Chaba]

Richard would win the fist fight....

[tbike4]

Who is Dave Kirk's favorite Darren?

Levity. That made for a nice chuckle, ok actually a LOL and most likely a fair amount of members here would have to google the meaning.

[Aaron O]

Other gripping questions for the community to ponder…

Would you rather be stuck in an elevator with Ryan Loche, Paul Taylor, or the teenage cannibal in Florida?

Which group is less diverse, our forum, or an episode of friends?

Would you rather have your choice of any car in production, but you have to ride a Walmart bike for the rest of your life, or would you rather have any bike and have to drive a Yugo for eternity?

What percentage of framebuilders born after 1985 have nipple rings?

Which frame builder would you most and least want to see at a nude beach?

What percentage of total world spandex output is owned by paceliners?

Why don't more framebuilders send out a complementary lollipop with their frames?

If you were to name a cat after a FrameBuilder, which would it be? What about a dog? Potbellied pig?

Which is worse...Dura Ace AX, or Adam Sandler?

If someone ever makes a movie about the life and times of Ben Serotta, who plays Beb Serotta?

[dancinkozmo]

Richard would win the fist fight....

...no way. grant would knock him out with a foreign object ( a newvex lug?) when the ref wasnt looking

[joosttx]

This thread needs trigger warnings...

[jr59]

One thing I've learned from forums and reality is that forums and reality aren't the same thing.

I've gotten to know Richard a bit from having attended bike shows and from having participated in cycling events with him. His in-person personality isn't the same as his online personality. Same probably applies to all of us.

The internet brings out the best and the worst in all of us and that's never been more true than in this thread.

The price of used sporting goods is hardly a reliable barometer on someone's character or personality. Custom bikes are worth only what someone will pay for them.

I have owned numerous Serottas over the years and they were all a small fraction of the original, new price. Should I start a thread questioning Ben Serotta's character or personality based on the price I paid for a used piece of sporting equipment? Seems pretty ridiculous.

If you want to meet Richard, show up at a bike show or a race. He's good stuff and I can't believe this thread made it past about 4 posts.

Go ride people!

100% true. I would NEVER have agreed with this until I met him in person @ the Denver show. Not anything like his online self. It was shocking to me. At that time, I was having a very hard time getting to like my RS. Ritchie was helpful and even offered to help me sell it, if I wished. All round good guy, in person.



Other gripping questions for the community to ponder…

Would you rather be stuck in an elevator with Ryan Loche, Paul Taylor, or the teenage cannibal in Florida?

Which group is less diverse, our forum, or an episode of friends?

Would you rather have your choice of any car in production, but you have to ride a Walmart bike for the rest of your life, or would you rather have any bike and have to drive a Yugo for eternity?

What percentage of framebuilders born after 1985 have nipple rings?

What percentage of total world spandex output is owned by paceliners?

Why don't more framebuilders send out a complementary lollipop with their frames?

Which is worse...Dura Ace AX, or Adam Sandler?

If someone ever makes a movie about the life and times of Ben Serotta, who plays Beb Serotta?


And Aaron adds a bunch of humor to the thread. Well done my old friend.

[Aaron O]

100% true. I would NEVER have agreed with this until I met him in person @ the Denver show. Not anything like his online self. It was shocking to me. At that time, I was having a very hard time getting to like my RS. Ritchie was helpful and even offered to help me sell it, if I wished. All round good guy, in person.






And Aaron adds a bunch of humor to the thread. Well done my old friend.
How many framebuilders does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Just one. That will be a $200 deposit and I'll be done in about two months.

Try the veal!

[happycampyer]

I have owned numerous Serottas over the years and they were all a small fraction of the original, new price. Should I start a thread questioning Ben Serotta's character or personality based on the price I paid for a used piece of sporting equipment? Seems pretty ridiculous. Why start a new thread? You're forgetting that (sadly) there are dozens in the archives.

[weisan]

It depends on who you ask.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8996&stc=1&d=1138031028

[peanutgallery]

I think Ron Jeremy should play Ben Serotta

Other gripping questions for the community to ponder…

Would you rather be stuck in an elevator with Ryan Loche, Paul Taylor, or the teenage cannibal in Florida?

Which group is less diverse, our forum, or an episode of friends?

Would you rather have your choice of any car in production, but you have to ride a Walmart bike for the rest of your life, or would you rather have any bike and have to drive a Yugo for eternity?

What percentage of framebuilders born after 1985 have nipple rings?

What percentage of total world spandex output is owned by paceliners?

Why don't more framebuilders send out a complementary lollipop with their frames?

If you were to name a cat after a FrameBuilder, which would it be? What about a dog? Potbellied pig?

Which is worse...Dura Ace AX, or Adam Sandler?

If someone ever makes a movie about the life and times of Ben Serotta, who plays Beb Serotta?

[rando]

Richard would win the fist fight....

Narrowly, then face off against a triumphant Jan Heine on the heels of his recent victory over the ghost of Sheldon Brown. Small beer considering we all know a Brit is going win any large multi-day bike contest by decisive knock out.

http://i.imgur.com/KQ7HSzZ.gif

[William]

I think Ron Jeremy should play Ben Serotta

Ron Jeremy as Ben Serotta wielding a torch...that's not one image I think I ever would have had in my lifetime. Thanks.:fight:



:D


William

[Aaron O]

Narrowly, then face off against a triumphant Jan Heine on the heels of his recent victory over the ghost of Sheldon Brown. Small beer considering we all know a Brit is going win any large multi-day bike contest by decisive knock out.

http://i.imgur.com/KQ7HSzZ.gif

Special guest referee JP Weigle pulls a surprising turn on Richard Sachs, throwing the Fuji dust into his eyes.

[rando]

You are very strongly incorrect. Ref's need to have the appearance of impartiality while still being infinitely corruptible. Roche Maier acting as referee with ringside assistance from Assos girl fits the bill impeccably.

[nmrt]

hmmm....bulb fitting in the base....hmmmm
How do we know the geometry was correct? Who did the fitting?

How many framebuilders does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Just one. That will be a $200 deposit and I'll be done in about two months.

Try the veal!

[bcroslin]

hmmm....bulb fitting in the base....hmmmm
How do we know the geometry was correct? Who did the fitting?

And I was going to joke that 2 months was very optimistic

[PBWrench]

A long wait, but there was light at the end of the tunnel. Well worth the wait for my favorite ride. Rubber Side Down, PBWrench

[rwsaunders]

Fixed it for you.

[mg2ride]

What has always gnawed at me with threads like this is how so many people feel the need to rush to his defense. The OP in this thread in no way, shape or form disparaged Dick. It ask a simple and legitimate question. Why do his frame not sell as fast or at as high a price as they used too? If the answer is that nobody's frames sell as fast or as high priced as they used too then so be it.

Any "negative" comments made are not even that bad. ATSO, he overly self promotes and can come across as a DB at times. Whip Dee Fn Doo! The rush to defend him by people who admittedly don't even really know him, seems a little creepy to me. At his advanced age and at this point in his career he will be fine without the protection of this or any other forum.

Ben Serotta took it up the rear compared to anything every said about the little man in tight jeans.

[benb]

Too many folks seem to think these bikes have more value than they do. The value is not in the boutique quality or rarity of the frames but in the whole process. I have 0 interest in a used Sachs which probably wouldn't fit me any better than anything else. I don't really have any desire to wait so long for a frame either, but otherwise I am sure I would be very very happy with a bike he built just for me if I did somehow decide to get in the queue and drop that kind of money. Folks buying these used or hoping they have huge resale value seem like they are maybe more to the collector side of the sport than the riding side. If I had one built for me it would take something life changing (major financial crisis) to get me to sell it, and I'd imagine a lot of his customers never entertain selling their bikes.

Note I'm too young to really be in love with fancy custom steel frames too. I like them somewhat but not because they were the in vogue thing when I started riding. Aluminum and Carbon were already taking over big time by the time I started riding. Out of 7 road bikes I've owned in the last 17 seasons 2 have been steel. Neither of those were expensive bikes. For a really high cost frame I would still lean to Ti to protect my investment, if it's perfect I want it to last a really long time even with abuse as with a custom frame I'd probably want to ride it almost all the time even when the weather wasn't great. But I still appreciate these steel bikes a lot.

[Aaron O]

Too many folks seem to think these bikes have more value than they do. The value is not in the boutique quality or rarity of the frames but in the whole process. I have 0 interest in a used Sachs which probably wouldn't fit me any better than anything else. I don't really have any desire to wait so long for a frame either, but otherwise I am sure I would be very very happy with a bike he built just for me if I did somehow decide to get in the queue and drop that kind of money. Folks buying these used or hoping they have huge resale value seem like they are maybe more to the collector side of the sport than the riding side. If I had one built for me it would take something life changing (major financial crisis) to get me to sell it, and I'd imagine a lot of his customers never entertain selling their bikes.

Note I'm too young to really be in love with fancy custom steel frames too. I like them somewhat but not because they were the in vogue thing when I started riding. Aluminum and Carbon were already taking over big time by the time I started riding. Out of 7 road bikes I've owned in the last 17 seasons 2 have been steel. Neither of those were expensive bikes. For a really high cost frame I would still lean to Ti to protect my investment, if it's perfect I want it to last a really long time even with abuse as with a custom frame I'd probably want to ride it almost all the time even when the weather wasn't great. But I still appreciate these steel bikes a lot.
If a lot of folks value them differently than you do, thus creating the demand side of the equation, your entire post is fairly inane and can be summed up as:

I don't agree with how others value ____.

To which my response is two part:

No one cares.
Don't buy one.

You don't create demand :)

[aingeru]

A long wait, but there was light at the end of the tunnel. Well worth the wait for my favorite ride. Rubber Side Down, PBWrench

How long are those chainstays?

[benb]

If a lot of folks value them differently than you do, thus creating the demand side of the equation, your entire post is fairly inane and can be summed up as:

I don't agree with how others value ____.

To which my response is two part:

No one cares.
Don't buy one.

You don't create demand :)

It seems most people value them the way I do. The thread is the minority who think they should be worth more lamenting the fact that the majority won't pay a fortune for them. Who wants to pay $2k for a used custom frame that isn't custom for YOU when there are plenty of shops/builders that will make it custom for you at that price? And you will probably wait less for a brand new custom steel frame with a different name on the down tube than you'd wait to find a used RS in your size.

The demand isn't there, at least not to support new bike prices for used frames.

[staggerwing]

Recently, the light at the end of the tunnel has been looking like this. :crap:

[dave thompson]

Recently, the light at the end of the tunnel has been looking like this. :crap:

I thought politics was banned!

[DHallerman]

...a lot of ATMO koolaid guzzlers in the house !
oh well...less irritating than the grant peterson people :0)

Of course, Richard Sachs designed the lugs that Grant Petersen used in the first models (at least) of the Rivendell Road bikes.

So while their followers might diverge, their essential tastes have at least some key points of convergence.

Dave, who was going to visit Sachs' studio on a Friday in June 2001 but got laid off due to the dot-com bust on that Tuesday and so cancelled that appointment and cycling life just moved on

[DHallerman]

I don't know how much of a draw his used frames are, but I've discovered first-hand how much of a draw his new frames are: Since acquiring mine in March I not only get the (somewhat expected) "Nice bike!" compliments from fellow cyclists regularly, but on two separate occasions I've been approached by someone in civvies who literally ran across the street just to admire my bike. It was almost uncomfortable, like being stalked. Clearly they are a draw.

I've seen that people in NYC tend to appreciate beautiful bikes more than some people in other places.

Subjective data points: When we cycled with the NYCC, people regularly had (mainly positive) comments about my various bikes. Here about 50 miles north of NYC, my brilliant SO has basically never heard comments, let alone compliments, about her totally beautiful Kirk custom bike.

Dave, who says that's one thing to miss about cycling in NYC

That Kirk:
http://www.inplaceredesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/kirk_cathy_01a.jpg

[Keith A]

DHallerman -- Your SO's Kirk is indeed a great looking bike!

[beeatnik]

That's the 3rd Kirk I've seen posted this week, owned by a spouse or partner. Does DK offer volume/family discounts?

[OtayBW]

^^^ Pretty bike and nice looking build, but Holy Cow - that looks to be some serious low gearing on that sucker!

[54ny77]

that is one seriously beautiful kirk. :beer:

I've seen that people in NYC tend to appreciate beautiful bikes more than some people in other places.

Subjective data points: When we cycled with the NYCC, people regularly had (mainly positive) comments about my various bikes. Here about 50 miles north of NYC, my brilliant SO has basically never heard comments, let alone compliments, about her totally beautiful Kirk custom bike.

Dave, who says that's one thing to miss about cycling in NYC

That Kirk:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24440195/kirk_cathy_01a.jpg

[Ray]

Too many folks seem to think these bikes have more value than they do. The value is not in the boutique quality or rarity of the frames but in the whole process. I have 0 interest in a used Sachs which probably wouldn't fit me any better than anything else.

That's my thought about used customs also. I have two custom Spectrums that ride better than anything else I've ever been on. Tom spent some time with me learning my ride and handling preferences and seeing how I sat on a bike and built them to me. I love 'em, but I doubt they'd ride as well for anyone shaped differently who sat differently and who rode significantly more or less aggressively. They're amazing frames but I wouldn't expect to get much for them used. And I wouldn't buy a used custom unless I had a chance to ride it for a while and make damn sure it was right for me. When I was riding a lot I almost waited out one of Richard's bikes, but the wait was too long and after I had my first Spectrum, I decided that rode as well as I'd ever hope for. My initials are RS and my last name is Sachs also (no relation, but I've met Richard a couple times and we were sort of virtual forum cousins for a while), so there'd be a real personal appeal to having a Sachs. But only if it was built specifically for me...

I don't ride enough now to do any bike justice, so I'm not even remotely thinking of buying anymore bikes. But I'm keeping at least one of the Spectrums anyway because when I DO ride it on my weak little 20-30 mile rides (about all I'm good for anymore), it's still perfect. I'm not, but the bike is...

-Ray

[PaMtbRider]

That's the 3rd Kirk I've seen posted this week, owned by a spouse or partner. Does DK offer volume/family discounts?

I wish. I actually asked Dave that before my wife and I ordered our Kirk's. Just as well, a repeat customer discount would probably push me over the edge to order an Onesto.

[David Kirk]

I wish. I actually asked Dave that before my wife and I ordered our Kirk's. Just as well, a repeat customer discount would probably push me over the edge to order an Onesto.

I wish I could afford to give a repeat customer discount but I can't.....I do offer my fastest turnaround for repeat customers however. I build in open-space into my queue to allow me to do special projects or help repeat customers and this allows me some freedom in production.

So if that Onesto is teasing you we can fix that sooner rather than later.

dave

[jlwdm]

I think there are some other factors at work here on the Sachs frames. First I think a fair number of Sachs frames sell to friends or others locally and do not go on Ebay or a forum like this. Color, type of bike and condition are really important. I am not going to buy a used frame that is not in perfect condition.

I don't follow the classifieds here. It seems like most of the buyers are looking for a real deal to try or flip so prices can be low. I did a search in the classifieds and the number of Sachs frames that have been up for sale here is pretty small.

I just ride custom frames - two that were made for me (Serotta and Spectrum) and the last CSI that Kelly Bedford built for himself. The CSI has a 73 degree seat tube angle v the 72 degrees on my two customs, but I have it setup to match my other bikes (35 degree Bold Ti seatpost v my normal 25 degree posts).

At 6' 2 1/2" I always wondered why during the years that I wore suits to work I would have to make both ends of my ties almost exactly the same and they still seemed a little long. My first custom bike fit explained this - long legs and short upper body. After 9 years this week I have never thought about replacing this first custom. My frames are all in the 61 to 63 cm range after some slope.

When I searched the classifieds today I saw a Sachs frame from early this year in a 62cm that was brand new. I probably would have bought this frame if I knew about it. I would have checked the specs just a little more. I think everyone needs to recognize that lots of members do not search the classifieds or Ebay on a regular basis. I have a search set up on Ebay but I do not have emails of new listings sent to me. I just look at the search results every few months.



Jeff