Ottrott...and stems, etc.

[Legend_1970]

Thinking of taking the plunge for my first (and hopefully not last) Ottrott. Have some questions for current owners..:
1. Do you ride your in the rain, or do you save it for sun only due to durability?
2. Do you use any protectant on the carbon tubes?
3. Would there be anything wrong with putting a 2.5 inch HT extension on it?
4. Can you get the threaded forks? I want to get a custom Nitto stem for high rise..
5. I don't trust Serotta fitters since everyone will give you a different opinion. Can I rely on the Colorado Cyclist fit worksheet to get my size if I have a buddy do the measurements for me?
6. Can I get it with an integrated headset if the threaded fork is not an option?
7. What are your favorite carbon cages, bars and seatpost to dress your ottrott with?
8. The trunk of my BMW probably isn't the safest place for this thing. What kind of rack won't hurt the finish of the bike (or my beemer..)
9. I just dropped about 5k on a cool laptop to do my trading on, so if my better half sees another 8k gone on a bike...well....how do I hide this thing??

[Smiley]

Wow ,
"I don't trust Serotta fitters since everyone will give you a different opinion. Can I rely on the Colorado Cyclist fit worksheet to get my size if I have a buddy do the measurements for me?"
I would trust a blind fitter before I trusted what your thinking is the gospel ! Seriously there are tons of quality fitters out there , just ask around and get some references. Best of luck on your Ottrott purchase.

[Legend_1970]

No offense to Serotta fitters. But even on this forum, people have complained about getting either bad fits, or varying opinions from different Serotta trained fitters. I'm actually leaning towards standard geometry anyway (other than the HT extension) as I've always been able to fit standard geometry on Cannondales, and the 'standard' Serotta geometry seems to have close to the same TT lengths.

[dbrk]

I'll offer my two cents on your questions though I am not an Ottrott owner, I've had some experience with high end bikes of the modern zoot variety.

1. Do you ride your in the rain, or do you save it for sun only due to durability?

There is no reason not to ride the bike in all weathers. Nothing to rust, nothing to chip or suffer.

2. Do you use any protectant on the carbon tubes?

Since the tubes are clear-coated there is no need for anything other than the same you might use on a painted bike. I would use an appropriate car wax (one without abrasives), or Pledge, or that Pedros Bike Lust but that's just for shine since it's mostly water.

3. Would there be anything wrong with putting a 2.5 inch HT extension on it?

A ht extension this long is, imho, an almost always unnecessary compromise. Leaving aside the aesthetic issues (it's ugly, imo), you might better size up or slope the top tube to get the bars up because of #4.

4. Can you get the threaded forks? I want to get a custom Nitto stem for high rise..

As I understand it, no. The hts are 1.125" and there are no such forks that are threaded. It is true that threadless steerers steal stack height and cause lower bars. This means that if you want to use a threadless stem, which I believe is your only option on an Ottrott, then you must size up and add ht extension that _also_ compensates for the loss of hs stack height. In other words, you need to add in the loss of stack height as well as what you get from quill heights. I think there's no other choice for the Ottrott.

5. I don't trust Serotta fitters since everyone will give you a different opinion. Can I rely on the Colorado Cyclist fit worksheet to get my size if I have a buddy do the measurements for me?

For a sized up Ottrott I too would not trust one Serotta fitter, not one. How's dem' apples? I think the sized up bikes I see are almost all fit with silly compromises: too many spacers, big riser stems, head tube extensions. Frankly, I can't believe that Serotta lets these bikes out of the door? WHY NOT just build a bigger bike or a sloper that uses a stem that follows the line of the toptube? I have been to three Serotta fitters, listened attentively, stood back without offering my opinions, in two cases saying nothing about my experience with fitting---voila!! Bikes all fit too small or made with recommendations that are goofy: smoke stakes, riser stems, etc. NOW if you have really serious fit issues and MOST people DO NOT have those issues (like serious back pain, etc) then some of these goofy compromises will get you the fit you need, but it's largely better to try to avoid these.

Now, if you are looking for a taller front end bike which everything you say suggests is the case (looking for a threaded Nitto) then DO NOT use the Colorado Cyclist formula. This number formula WILL SIZE YOU TOO SMALL!! For a better off the peg, start with Grant Petersen's saddle heights or go to your saddle height -11cm which will be the tallest bike you can stand over (top tube may nudge the perineum), but you WILL fit over the bike. Sizing up requires other insights when there is a threadless steerer. I strongly recommend a slight slope of say 1.5-3d which you will barely notice and take the head tube UP and WITHOUT much or any ht extension. For this you need a custom fitter....uhhh....good luck with that.


6. Can I get it with an integrated headset if the threaded fork is not an option?

I think not. Plus the integrated headset costs you MORE stack height!! This is a terrible idea, leaving aside what a terrible idea the integrated hs are to begin with.

7. What are your favorite carbon cages, bars and seatpost to dress your ottrott with?

I've ridden Easton and FSA but I wouldn't spend that nor are they more than aesthetic preferences. Knock yerself out, I say, be happy.

8. The trunk of my BMW probably isn't the safest place for this thing. What kind of rack won't hurt the finish of the bike (or my beemer..)

Put it in the trunk. Just be careful. Save money. Save your bike.


9. I just dropped about 5k on a cool laptop to do my trading on, so if my better half sees another 8k gone on a bike...well....how do I hide this thing??

Lie. Works great until you get busted.

dbrk

[jpw]

Well, of course i know nothing.....but,

Carbon tubes and sunshine, or more particularly UV can be troublesome can it not?

BMW trunk storage.....in the summer heat it may become an oven and soften junction epoxy bonds...maybe(?). :no:

Trading...what kind of trading(?)...sounds profitable. :D

I recommend all alloy for a trouble free cycling life. ;)

[Adam]

Just a note in defense of Serotta fitters...communication is key! If you want to "size up" you must let your intentions be known! When I begin a fitting, I query my clients quite a bit on how they ride(to establish handling characteristics), how they want their bike to look(slope? no slope? how many spacers if any, rise in the stem, etc. etc.). Only after evaluating the clients fitness, biomechanics, flexbility and understanding how and why they ride, do I begin the fitting. This communication is what eliminates "bad fits". Once the saddle and Hbar positions are dialed in relative to the BB, there are many ways to build the bike around those points...that's the beauty of custom. And because I can rely on frame designers like Kelly Bedford, I know that the handling will be spot on to my clients wishes.

Adam

[dave thompson]

Two-way communications, and brutal honesty about yourself, I believe are the keys to a great fit. If you have delusions about what kind of a rider you think you are, those will be passed on to the fitter, to your detriment.

When seeking a good fitter you should find several, then interview them. Find out their philosophies, experiences, training etc. then pick the one that you feel most confident with. Engage them in a two-way conversation about what you want, what you expect and what you need from your new bike. Be realistic about your abilities and potentials. If you talk 'boy racer', that's what you will get, and may suffer down the road.

I've been fit three times; once on an existing bike (which was too small), once when I let the fitter tell me what was good (he was 'close'), and lastly by Michael Sylvester at the Bike Gallery in Portland Oregon. I chose Michael even though he was several hundred miles from me because he listened to what I had to say (over the phone) made some initial comments about my riding style. When I went for the fit he and I had a lengthy conversation about 'what I wanted, what I expected and what I needed' from my new bike.
I used Michaels fit as a basis for my custom Kirk. The Kirk fits me perfectly!

Choose a fitter like you would choose a doctor or a biking coach. They have to know more than you, and at the same time they have to know all about you.

[Sandy]

I do not agree at all with dbrk on his comments about Serotta fitters, nor do I agree with his sizing up approach being the panacea for fitting and sizing up. I sized up from a standard geometry 57 cm st with a 57 cm tt and 73 degree sa and 73.5 degree ha on my 1998 CSi, when I got my 2004 Ottrott. My new bike is a virtual 59 cm with a 57 cm st and a 57cm horizontal tt, and 2 degrees of tt downslope angle. The sa and ha were both made 73 degrees since stability was one of the two most important features I wanted in the bike (efficient response to pedal input was the other).

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I did not want a tt with a big slope. In addition, I have short legs, a long torso, and am not very flexible at age 63, certainly unlike dbrk. Standover height was very important to me. And yes, dbrk,the Jerk, Flydhest, and others, I know that a bike can be leaned over, but I wanted and felt I needed ample standover height. The resultant 83.24 cm standover at the middle of the tt is great for me, and I met my lack of flexibility and relatively short legs for my height.

I find my bike to be incredibly stable and handles significantly better than my older bike and that is why I ride it exclusively (The remarkable efficient transfer of pedal input to forward motion makes it great fun).

So I will gladly ride my bike with my "goofy compromises" with a large ht extension, spacers, and positive rise stem. I really don't care if the bike is not aesthetically pleasing to many of the traditionalists, since I ride the bike and not the looks of the bike.

In addition, Smiley was my fitter and did a remarkable job for me, giving me an unbelivable amount of his time, with one objective on his mind: Fitting me on a bike that will ride efficiently, comfortably, with great stability, and with flexibilty of design so the I can make changes in the future, commensurate with my ever changing ride needs.

No disrespect intended to anyone in my comments. I know that there are many who think there is little value in an Ottrott and that my bike looks goofy, but 10 cents can be 2 nickels, or a dime, or 10 pennies, or,....


Sandy

[dbrk]

Whoa, whoa, I advocate no panecea nor do I suggest that there is one way to skin the cat. I actually much prefer slopers to headtube extensions and riser stems that don't match the slope. But what I don't like aesthetically are the long headtube extensions when you could pull up the headtube, it being only a mild adjustment.

As for Serotta fitters, I only relay my experience. Obviously there are a lot of happy people out there fit by Serotta fitters. Good for you folks! I simply don't like the method, the basic starting points, and many, many of the aesthetic outcomes. That doesn't make me wrong or anti-Serotta or anything like that (no accusations, of course!) but there are indeed ways to size up and Serotta is particularly shown a certain inability to comprehend this---why? Because if they just looked at the French, Daniel Rebour, and other methods than those that historically derive from Italian race bikes having moved to America, they might come up with different ideas. That's all. That's an opinion based on history, tradition, and another way of looking at things. Serotta builds some of my favorite bicycles but I don't sing from the hymnal on fit, that's all.

And warm, good feelings of course to Sandy, Smiley, and all others here, especially Ben and Co., and it is a _good and wonderful thing_ that we can happily have different views. Hurray for diverse opinions and experiences.

dbrk

[Sandy]

dbrk,

Does this mean that if I show up for one of your rides at your country home, I would not be left out with the wild animals??

So Scared Sandy

[Andreu]

I really would like a Serotta...love 'em..on my "to buy list" (probably a Ti).
But a curious thing is, that alot of the bikes I see, in my opinion, on the Serotta images forum do look slightly odd (sloping TT, strange looking stubby upright stems). I prefer a more trad look i.e. low handlebars and high saddle.
That aside......I am giving Serotta the benefit of the doubt here - is this more to do with riders and their requirements than the fitter? I certainly wouldn't want to spend huge spondoolicks ($$$$) on a frame then find out I didn't have the "right" shape or a shape I didn't like. I cannot believe the buyers of these frames would be that naive or unknowing of the final shape and probably more importantly comfort factor (I am guessing that, in general, these shapes give a more upright position and therefore are more comfortable and that is why they go for them?)
After all it is only opinion....as I have not seen much science.
A :beer:

[dbrk]

My dear Sanford,
You and all of our Serottapals are _most_ welcome to ride and to visit here! I would be honored and I think Kevan would like it too. Gosh, just to hear you two go at it! Plus, we have a really sweet dog and I think you'd love her aplenty.

We will soon find if there is an Ottrott in my future, but I really really doubt it. Aim high, bid low, I say.

dbrk
actually aka "cheapskate opinioned fellow..."

[Johny]

dbrk again provided the insight of fitting into a bigger bike and Sandy again respectfully disagreed... :beer:

I just went back to the threaded headsets and quill stems for two of my Serotta's. I have to say: they work better. I do not have to worry about cutting my forks too short. More importantly, I know as the season and my age progress, I can just adjust the stem without getting a new fork. Does that mean I will keep my current Serotta's until I die? Very likely.

PS. Sandy, I have been riding in dbrk's area. There are no mountain lions for sure. I was chased by a "evil" dog (Definitely not dbrk's)... Sorry, I have known very little about dogs although I have a B.S. in Zoology...

[Bruce H.]

It sounds like you are not fully sold upon the Ottrott. If not, and for that much money, test ride the Ottrott and other bikes to be sure. For some reason, it sounds like you are trying to rationalize "investing" in this bike.
I have a 330i and my Serotta fits into the trunk. I destroyed the roof of my car once with a rooftop carrier as well as the garage door. Fortunately only scratched the top tube of the bike. You will find most folks with rooftop carriers have or will eventually do the same!
At any rate, enjoy the experience of finding the right machine for your usage. Good luck!
just my usual unwanted 2 cents
Bruce H.

[Sandy]

Johny,

I am really not afraid of being chased by dogs. I have a real fear of being chased by Kevan. As you have a B.S. in Zoology, perhaps you can tell me exactly what is a Kevan? Or perhaps I should go to a botanist who specializes in rare and deadly plants. What do you suggest????


Planting seeds in people's minds,


Simple Sandy

[jpw]

...curious about which frames you did finally place bids on. Which Ottrot did you go for in view of the fact that you are apparently my body size?
This may help me in future, although i still doubt i will go for a carbon... truss.

[Sandy]

I have a BMW M3 which is the same size as a 330i. I take both wheels off the bike and it fits quite easily. You learn how to put it in the car. I am leaving (should have left hours ago) for a week in West Virginia for the Jewish holiday Passover. I have my bike, lots of luggage and assorted goodies (Kevan's blow up doll, my favorite yellow ducky, nude pictures of Kevan,....) in the car.

Sorry Flydhest, I left your naughty picture at home. I didn't want to be stopped by the WV State Police and TRY to explain what you were trying to do in the picture. :)

I have to get going so that my wife is not too upset with me. Best wife and friend in the world!!!!! :)


Sandy

[dbrk]

I think it would be best not to say how much we bid (money has a way of driving us apart) but I will say that I bid on the 57 Ottrott with the 18.something headtube and the yellow paint. I think this bike is way on the small end of what would be perfect but the 18something ht is way better than the "standard" size that occurs on 57s or on the other Inferno painted Ottrott.

I like yellow paint but if this bike has yellow ti lugs and black tubes, I dunno, I think I would not pick that color (apologies to BBDave because I really DO like yellow and black bikes...alot!!) But considering the amount I bid I could deal with some compromises, use a Ritchey 84d stem (not horrible amounts of rise to my eye), and get close to my "racer" position. I doubt VERY much that I won and it matters not much to me. I am unwilling to pay the retail for an Ottrott, that being just a reflection of my cheapskatedness.

The taller front end fit on this bike comes from nearly 3cm more ht than other comparable 57s.

dbrk

[jpw]

I too have an open mind on the fitter issue, or do i ?

I haven't let tried the Serotta fit system but i'm thinking about it. My feeling is that the fitter is going to lean in the direction of his or her own prefered riding position and style almost every time. If i were advising friends on starting out in cycling i'd probably do the same. Ah, am i creating a self re-enforcing delusional argument here? Probably. Nevertheless, that's how i see it as far as fitters go.

My idea would be to go to the fitter and ask to hire their machine for an hour and set it up the way i feel is best... and THEN ask for the fitters opinion of my position. Would make for an interesting exchange of views.

[JohnS]

I had already bought a bike and was a several-year customer of the fitter I went to so he already knew my pathetic riding habits and abilities. :)

[BigMac]

Not to pour coal into everyone's stockings, but reading the original post by "Legend", does this not seem a bit tongue in-cheek? Maybe I'm way off base, if so it would hardly be the first time.

To dbrk's, cf tubing care, I would HIGHLY recommend using a protectant such as 303. Now I don't ride plastic bikes or use plastic parts on my bikes but I have used composite kayak paddles for years and UV protection is ESSENTIAL to their longterm care. Sorry Pledge and other similar items just won't due for UV protection, nor will the stock gel coat or resin additives the tubing vendors employ, a supplemental UV protectant product such as 303 should be applied every 1-3 months depending upon bike usage.

The 1" threaded should be feasible with a CK Devolution hs. Now I would NEVER recommend a CK headset due primarily to pricing relative to the equally durable Campy Chorus hs but the Devolution is a very nicely engineered niche market design, though extraordinarily over-priced it does serve a purpose. Can you still get a threaded version of Devolution? I do not know, call CK to be sure. The biggest problem may be finding a threaded fork of proper crown height, most Ottrott's would be built around a 374mm crown height but if you spec something different to accomodate a threaded fork, you may pigeon-hole yourself into a single fork option...not a bad thing just that you'll never be able to swap forks without altering front end geometry and elevation. Personally, a threadless setup is better from a design engineering standpoint, offering better front-end feel and a more durable hs. If you order a custom frame, there should not be an issue with bar height that necesssitates a Nitto high-rise stem, the frame is designed to accomodate a desired bar height a stem choice.

I would also suggest most sizing problems are NOT the sole responsibility of the fitter. Yes, it is true, many fitters, even "Serotta Certified" too often subscribe to the adage; "let's fit rider to smallest frame possible", based typically on misnoamer that a smaller frame is somehow more responsive or some other nonsense. The problem however with poor fittings in my opinion is with lack of communication. The rider either believes they know more about fit than they really do..cannot tell you how many times I have heard 6'0 riders say, "...but I've been riding a 55cm frame for years, that's what feels best to me..." meanwhile their back is hunched, knees almost hit handlebars.... Unless you are extremely short or tall, I really think most riders are better off on stock frames till they are really experienced with riding and proper positioning for their biomechanics. There are far too many fitting "rules" in bicycle industry, things like KOPS, TT as a percentage of sturnum height plus forearm length, yada, yada yada. My buddy Sanford is a fine example. He and I are similar height, at least I think so, and not so far apart in age (he IS 8 years older!!) but our builds are quite dissimilar and consequently our bike sizes are extremely dissimilar. Neither is poorly fit for its intended user but the result came from lots of trial and error over several years with lots of honest communication with our respective fitters.

Just know that a good or bad fit is not solely dependant upon the fitter and/or the Serotta fitting system, I beleive Serotta has most thoroughly attempted to eliminate variables in a proper fit, it still comes down to open and honest communication between the fitter and fittee. :argue:

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Needs Help]

2. Serotta has this to say about their carbon tubes in their '04 catalog:

"Resins which bond fibers together can deteriorate over time from ultra-violet rays. Protective layers of fabric and UV coatings are essential for preserving long-term durability. An alarming number of manufacturers ignore this basic precaution in favor of cost cutting and/or aesthetics."

5. I've been fit by 4 different Serotta fitters--and the numbers are all over the board. I took a similar approach as dbrk, and I tried to remain neutral during the fit process. I did not let on I had been fit before, and I did not try to sway the numbers to match some preconceived notion. Instead, I just gave input on how everything felt when asked. When I was asked what I thought was an unfair question, like "Do you think the stem should be longer?", I invariably shrugged my shoulders and with a vacant smile on my face replied, "you're the expert".

Get Paul Levine to fit you--it's way cheaper in the long run even if you have to get a flight to New York.

6. You should read this about integrated headsets:

http://www.chrisking.com/pdfs/Int%20Headsets%20Explained.pdf

8. Advisability of using roof racks:

http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/67.htm

[flydhest]

re: integrated headsets, the CK bit is (as has been discussed a few times here before) in reference to the older version where the bearing race is actually part of the HT. The newer verisions of the same idea have a separate bearing race. As an example is the integrated or internal or whatever you want to call them, headset that CK now makes.

That they can exacerbate stack height problems is, however, still a valid critique.

[Kevin]

So I will gladly ride my bike with my "goofy compromises" with a large ht extension, spacers, and positive rise stem. I really don't care if the bike is not aesthetically pleasing to many of the traditionalists, since I ride the bike and not the looks of the bike.

No disrespect intended to anyone in my comments. I know that there are many who think there is little value in an Ottrott and that my bike looks goofy, but 10 cents can be 2 nickels, or a dime, or 10 pennies, or,....


Sandy

Sandy,

You are 100% correct. People should design a bike for its fit and its ride, not its appearance. If you care about the appearance, play with the colors and the paint scheme.

Kevin

[dbrk]

My point is that appearance does not have to come at the expense of fit, not usually, not often, and only under fairly extreme circumstances. Surely everyone's aesthetics suits their tastes and I merely express my own preferences, but I would NEVER sacrifice fit for the sake of aesthetics. What I know, however, is that if a bike doesn't look right (proportioned, uncompromised in details, etc.) then it could have been fit better. To wit, the same fit could have been achieved very likely without those compromises that I would considere unpleasing to the eye. There are exceptions, of course, where someone's physical needs require relatively drastic or at least somewhat exaggerated solutions. I would never suggest anyone ride uncomfortably for aesthetic purposes; I merely propose that most good fits can be achieved without such aesthetic compromises and that I am too often disappointed with the look achieved by Serotta fitters. I could get all Buckmister Fuller-ish about this but that's another paragraph and I am prolix enough.

dbrk

[SPOKE]

Legend 1970,
bunches of good info in this thread. what i want to stress is the simple fact that a fitting is an interactive process. you and the person doing the fitting need to understand one another. you have to be able to describe the ride qualities, fit requirements, and the look you desire. if you can't properly communicate this to your fitter or he/she doesn't listen/interpret your desires then problems can happen. make sure you work with someone that understands what you are trying to tell them.

[csb]