View Full Version : zidane zidane zidane
ada@prorider.or
07-09-2006, 03:46 PM
how it the got was this possible such a great player
72gmc
07-09-2006, 03:49 PM
a terrible decision... but i would bet half of dbrk's bikes that he was getting as good as he gave.
boo in general. the boring team of synchronized divers takes the cup. i blame argentina's coach for depriving us of an exciting finale.
harlond
07-09-2006, 04:04 PM
Very disappointing, indeed. A regrettable end to a great career.
jwprolo
07-09-2006, 04:07 PM
a terrible decision... but i would bet half of dbrk's bikes that he was getting as good as he gave.
boo in general. the boring team of synchronized divers takes the cup. i blame argentina's coach for depriving us of an exciting finale.
So he was getting a headbut? Sorry, but he was getting clutched slighly, and then taunted. No verbal abuse can justify a straight up headbut to the chest.
And about those divers, how about that phantom foul that awarded France it's only goal? I actually thought that it was played as a pretty clean game, with fewer soft fouls than many other matches.
France really blew it. They were controlling the field so much better. I thought Italy was a lucky to get it to penalties and have Zidane out.
shaq-d
07-09-2006, 04:10 PM
So he was getting a headbut? Sorry, but he was getting clutched slighly, and then taunted. No verbal abuse can justify a straight up headbut to the chest.
And about those divers, how about that phantom foul that awarded France it's only goal? I actually thought that it was played as a pretty clean game, with fewer soft fouls than many other matches.
France really blew it. They were controlling the field so much better. I thought Italy was a lucky to get it to penalties and have Zidane out.
france had a penalty kick that wasn't called. nuff said
sd
man i hope i'm not wrecking anyone's afternoon,
but i immediately thought of lance and simeoni
when i saw that headbutt atmo.
catulle
07-09-2006, 05:07 PM
Zidane, Zidane, indeed. I wonder what would Camus, Zidane's Algerian compatriot would have said. One single act, one single decision turned the hero into a villain. I wonder what he is thinking now. He looked slightly remorseful like a dog after biting a person. And to add insult to injury, the Italians won the prize. A dramatic end if I ever saw one.
I had no loyalties going into the game, but after France's undeserved penalty kick early and the goal taken away from Italy on a bad offsides call and then, particularly, after the classless head butt, I became an Italian fan and was glad to see them win in the penalty kicks. France played better, controlled the game, and probably should have won. But they couldn't put the ball in the goal during play and couldn't even take advantage of the calls going their way. So, I'm glad Italy won.
But I'm not a huge fan and will have largely forgotten about it by tomorrow.
-Ray
oh hi e-RICHIE. what's on your mind.
being a fair weather world cup fan, what i am interested in knowing
is if the head butt undid all the goodwill that came with this cat's
presence on the team. he possibly is 100% responsible for france's
not winning the prize. do his team mates and fans sanction this
momentary lapse of sportsmanship? what does the act do to his
legacy atmo?
Elefantino
07-09-2006, 05:33 PM
What's worse is that if he would have taken the penalty kick instead of the guy that missed.
He's second to none in the world in PKs.
Some athletes just lose it. He did. Got to give him style points, though. A perfect shot.
Forza Italia....
Now back to the Tour.
catulle
07-09-2006, 06:09 PM
being a fair weather world cup fan, what i am interested in knowing
is if the head butt undid all the goodwill that came with this cat's
presence on the team. he possibly is 100% responsible for france's
not winning the prize. do his team mates and fans sanction this
momentary lapse of sportsmanship? what does the act do to his
legacy atmo?
I ain't got much of a mind, but I'll tell what's on mine, atmo. Zidane had managed to infuse spirit in his team. After leaving Real Madrid on a rather sour note, he decided to return to the game one last time for France. For the French, the F in France is a double capital. No one really expected much of the French team for this WC until Zidane started showing the kind of game that creates legends. The old man returned to defend his national colors and he was shinning like during his glory days. And the team responded to his enthusiasm, his great game , and his leadership. With Zidane at the helm a lackluster team morphed into a real contender.
And just when all the commentators were saying that if France won the Cup Zidane would be named the MVP (mainly because of his leadership and elán as Henry and Ribery played extremely well also), he yields to the temptation of instant gratification and knocks that guy on his glutei. I could hear the morale hissing right out of the team. Tomorrow's papers will show on their first page the picture of Zidane with his head on the Italian's chest, placing thusly a dark veil on the whole event.
Like it tends to happen in these cases when a hero decides to take his own course of action, some people will justify it, some others will overlook it, and some others will hate him for it. I believe that he should've known better than hitting that guy right there and then. Zidane had decided to win the World Cup and retire in glory, the fact is that he worked hard to accomplish his team's victory. But at the end his bodily fluids overpowered his determination and he ended up betraying himself, and betraying the people who were rooting for him.
History tends to be lenient with people like Zidane, and he has his expensive toys to keep him entertained for some time, but he will never get his fourth star. He'll retire like a three star general, atmo.
1centaur
07-09-2006, 06:18 PM
First, I would have stopped Zidane's penalty kick. I guessed he was going that way without power based on where he went in the previous game and the way his eyes moved before the kick. I'm not kidding.
Second, the Italian's second goal was offside - obvious even before the replay.
Third, Italy has played better offensive football than France in the tournament and allowed fewer goals. As soon as France beat Brazil I assumed Italy would win the cup.
Fourth, what a bonehead move :)
kestrel
07-09-2006, 06:19 PM
Zindane... he's been known to lose it before, great player, but others know he can be baited. Talk to him enough and he retaliates. That was his second red of the tournament I believe.
Ray, I agreed with you on the bad offside call until I watched the replay. He was clearly in the offside position when the ball was stuck. He hesitated a second and made it look like he was onside, but the stop action replay shows the ref made the correct call.
72gmc
07-09-2006, 06:36 PM
the ref did a fine job in general. he blew a penalty kick for france (for a while it seemed tackling from behind was made legal for this game) but he did a decent job overall, including the red card for zidane. i'd prefer they let fouls go than call everything big and small ala netherlands-portugal.
my comment re zidane wasn't an attempt to justify his act. rather to say he was playing against a side that has a well-deserved reputation for diving, covering the face, rolling around in fraudulent agony, dousing a cleated foot with water (that was particularly pathetic, is that the new "magic sponge"?) and i'm sure they were messing with him the whole match. his reaction was extremely disappointing and he is definitely the goat, not the guy who hit the crossbar.
Like it tends to happen in these cases when a hero decides to take his own course of action, some people will justify it, some others will overlook it, and some others will hate him for it. I believe that he should've known better than hitting that guy right there and then. Zidane had decided to win the World Cup and retire in glory, the fact is that he worked hard to accomplish his team's victory. But at the end his bodily fluids overpowered his determination and he ended up betraying himself, and betraying the people who were rooting for him.
History tends to be lenient with people like Zidane, and he has his expensive toys to keep him entertained for some time, but he will never get his fourth star. He'll retire like a three star general, atmo.
it's all so fresh in my mind's eye atmo. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=229413&postcount=6)
catulle
07-09-2006, 06:48 PM
it's all so fresh in my mind's eye atmo. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=229413&postcount=6)
Heroes with clay feet, atmo.
goonster
07-09-2006, 07:29 PM
And just when all the commentators were saying that if France won the Cup Zidane would be named the MVP (mainly because of his leadership and elán as Henry and Ribery played extremely well also), he yields to the temptation of instant gratification and knocks that guy on his glutei.
Agreed on pretty much all counts, Catulle. :beer:
To see this kind of deliberate, premeditated assault on the game's grandest stage is pretty shocking. I'm sure the Azzurri were letting ZZ have it every time the ref looked away, but that doesn't absolve Zidane of the responsibility he has to his team.
What's worse is that if he would have taken the penalty kick instead of the guy that missed.
That "guy who missed" is only David Trezeguet, featured striker of one of the richest clubs on earth and launcher of the fastest shot ever clocked at Wembley.
Malouda was the man of the match for me. Always dangerous, almost unstoppable. Henry showed flashes of brilliance (was it four defenders he sliced through?) but never quite delivered the domination expected of him. Even his goal against Brazil was the result of a complete blackout by the defense (Roberto Carlos could not be reached at his "emergency address" when he was most needed there).
Italy are not entirely undeserving Champions, and they actually transcended many of the ancient stereotypes ascribed to them. Their goals were scored by many different players, and their stingy defense was complemented by some real attacking flair. I don't even think they dived that much. Even del Piero stayed on his feet, mostly. The penalty they won against Australia is the only blemish on their record, imho, but I know folks whose opinion I respect and they didn't have a problem with that play, so whatever. Portugal were the real divers. In the second half of the semifinal they were so busy keeling over in the box they plain forgot to poke the ball goalward. Disgraceful.
The Italian team has quite a few players worthy of a winner's medal. Buffon, obviously. Cannavaro, definitely. Pirlo (the Italian Riquelme) was truly great, to my surprise. Gattuso (the Italian Jens Jeremies) was consistently impressive and even made the occasional great pass forward. Grosso was also consistently fantastic. De Rossi is a little bish who didn't deserve to play in this game, but whacha gonna do . . .
Bottom line, for me, is that this is a team that exceeded pretty much everybody's expectations and that, all hype and prejudices aside, won me over with what they actually did on the field.
obtuse
07-09-2006, 07:44 PM
man i hope i'm not wrecking anyone's afternoon,
but i immediately thought of lance and simeoni
when i saw that headbutt atmo.
me too. that and eric cantona. zidane looked around, saw that the refs were no where and sight and headbutted the punk. instant replay sucks in football yo.
obtuse
catulle
07-09-2006, 07:58 PM
There is a Spanish saying that refers to people who manage to spoil their good deeds: What he built with his hands, he destroyed with his feet. In the case of Zidane: What he built with his feet, he destroyed with his head. I guess that happens when you are more dextrous with your feet than with your head, atmo.
christian
07-09-2006, 08:05 PM
That "guy who missed" is only David Trezeguet, featured striker of one of the richest clubs on earth and launcher of the fastest shot ever clocked at Wembley.
Yeah, Trezeguet would have been one of the five, even if Henry, Zidane, Viera, and Cisse were available. Oh, what if Djibril Cisse had been able?
- Christian
There is a Spanish saying that refers to people who manage to spoil their good deeds: What he built with his hands, he destroyed with his feet. In the case of Zidane: What he built with his feet, he destroyed with his head. I guess that happens when you are more dextrous with your feet than with your head, atmo.
i'm more dextrous with my head atmo.
coylifut
07-09-2006, 08:32 PM
Goonster and Christian got this one right. Even though Zidane's lack of restraint was dramatic, it had little to do with the out come of the game. Missing a PK is like double faulting when you are down match point. Trezeguet made the mistake that mattered most.
Separately, can you imagine being some drunk ice-hole mouthing off to Zidane in some seedy bar and then BLAM you get one of his fore head slams in the grill. That thing's a weapon.
Louis
07-09-2006, 09:02 PM
Even though Zidane's lack of restraint was dramatic, it had little to do with the out come of the game.
Perhaps, but we'll never know. France had the better of the play in the OT, who knows what would have happened if Zidane had remained. There was plenty of time left for them to score, had they been at full strength. As the Germans found out, lots can happen in a short period of time...
I thought the head-butt was most interesting as a human drama. Even at that high a level they aren't automatons out there. That makes it all even more intriguing. Human feelings and emotions are still important. It could be something out of Shakespeare.
Louis
catulle
07-09-2006, 09:11 PM
i'm more dextrous with my head atmo.
I hope so, atmo. :D
ti_boi
07-09-2006, 10:05 PM
Zidane, Zidane, indeed. I wonder what would Camus, Zidane's Algerian compatriot would have said. One single act, one single decision turned the hero into a villain. I wonder what he is thinking now. He looked slightly remorseful like a dog after biting a person. And to add insult to injury, the Italians won the prize. A dramatic end if I ever saw one.
You forgot to say 'ATMO'.
In fact his headbutt was punk rock all the way.
But a case study in how explosive anger can be fatal....moreso to the angry party than the moron at the other end of the explosion.
Butthead would be proud.
catulle
07-09-2006, 10:33 PM
You forgot to say 'ATMO'.
In fact his headbutt was punk rock all the way.
But a case study in how explosive anger can be fatal....moreso to the angry party than the moron at the other end of the explosion.
Butthead would be proud.
Oh, when you have an ATMO award you can skip an atmo here and there, atmo.
I had no loyalties going into the game, but after France's undeserved penalty kick early and the goal taken away from Italy on a bad offsides call and then, particularly, after the classless head butt, I became an Italian fan and was glad to see them win in the penalty kicks. France played better, controlled the game, and probably should have won. But they couldn't put the ball in the goal during play and couldn't even take advantage of the calls going their way. So, I'm glad Italy won.
But I'm not a huge fan and will have largely forgotten about it by tomorrow.
-Ray
Replay after replay of the "bad" offside call and I don't see the fuss. The goal scorer was plainly offsides when the pass was struck and the fact that the defenders caught up with him as he was heading the ball toward goal doesn't seem to fix that. He did not return onsides before the play to him or before he went to head the ball and nobody else touched the ball.
"Classless" head butt? Sure, he lost it, and he shouldn't have done so, and it was a plain foul. A shame, no doubt about it--a very public embarassment and no help to the side. As to the endless carping about the visciousness of it: this seemed to me perhaps the least dangerous foul of the game. What, exactly, was the potential for injury in it? He knocked the guy over without a blow to the head or the knees or ankles. The victim was fine before Zidane was off the field.
France got a little lucky with a debateable--but plausible--penalty early on. There was contact and there was contact from behind and it could have been let go OR called and it was called. They also lost out on, among other things, a no-call for a very obvious penalty in the box later on. The idea that they benefitted throughout from bad calls seems to me unsupportable--it was a reasonably clean game that was called better than nearly any other in the cup. Italy played inspired football for about 20 minutes of the first half, and had its moments later, but by-and-large, France played the better game. It's a shame about Zidane, but he's been a great player and, typically, a fine sportsman--occasionally his temper gets the better of him and there's no real excuse for it, but he's not a hack and, but for the card, he didn't play like one today either. Half an inch lower on the cross bar and Trezeguet's kick bounces in rather than down. Bad break for France, and not a little luck for Italy.
Lincoln
07-09-2006, 11:10 PM
Well put djg.
I get so sick of the diving I almost stopped watching a few times earlier in the tourny. Unfortunately it is a very hard call for the ref. to make, there can be contact or other things that make a player go down when it might appear to be a dive. My idea is to have FIFA review the game and hand out suspensions for diving. It won't help the team that was taken advantage of but it might go a long way to discouraging the bad acting. Gotta love it when a guy gets brushed on the right knee and grabs his left ankle.
Also, I think they should allow a few more subs during OTs. With a few exceptions, the OTs were pretty pokey going. Everyone in a death march just hoping waiting for the PKs and trying to not screw up and maybe get lucky.
Steelman
07-09-2006, 11:28 PM
how it the got was this possible such a great player
Zidane should have waited until after the game, and then hit that rude I-Talian square in the nuts with the World Cup trophy. Retribution has its time and place.
He has a history of head-butting and stomping, the I-Talian probably knew this and baited him with a racial slur (as is being reported). Poor sportsmanship on behalf of the blue team.
Needs Help
07-10-2006, 03:09 AM
I get so sick of the diving I almost stopped watching a few times earlier in the tourny. Unfortunately it is a very hard call for the ref. to make, there can be contact or other things that make a player go down when it might appear to be a dive. My idea is to have FIFA review the game and hand out suspensions for diving. It won't help the team that was taken advantage of but it might go a long way to discouraging the bad acting. Gotta love it when a guy gets brushed on the right knee and grabs his left ankle.
Uhhm, how about instant replay for every goal or foul in the box? If the player took a dive, then award a red card. If there's foul, then award a penalty kick.
Replay after replay of the "bad" offside call and I don't see the fuss. The goal scorer was plainly offsides when the pass was struck and the fact that the defenders caught up with him as he was heading the ball toward goal doesn't seem to fix that. He did not return onsides before the play to him or before he went to head the ball and nobody else touched the ball.
"Classless" head butt? Sure, he lost it, and he shouldn't have done so, and it was a plain foul. A shame, no doubt about it--a very public embarassment and no help to the side. As to the endless carping about the visciousness of it: this seemed to me perhaps the least dangerous foul of the game. What, exactly, was the potential for injury in it? He knocked the guy over without a blow to the head or the knees or ankles. The victim was fine before Zidane was off the field.
Fair enough - a couple of rebuttals to my initial observations. But you have to understand, when it comes to futball, I'm the same relatively clueless American viewer we all get so excorsized about Al Trautwig trying to appeal to on the cycling telecasts. I'll admit to not knowing JACK about this sport other than being really impressed and amazed by their ball handling skills with their feet, heads, chests, etc. I finally figure out what offsides means in hockey and now THIS! So you're all probably right about that call - I was taking the announcers word for it and they seemed to come down pretty strongly on the side of it being a dubious call. Maybe a lot like some of Al's cycling calls? And the foul calls are pretty tough for the refs to judge, so I surely ought to stay out of that. But the head-butt was pretty over the top, even if he was being baited. He had to know what they were trying to do and the best revenge would have been ignoring it until....later. And it was outside the game - he wasn't going for the ball. He just wailed on a guy with a nearly lethal weapon. I've tried heading a soccer ball a few times in my life and I'm always amazed at how painful it can be - what these guys do defies explanation. Any head that can do what their's do - I don't want it smashing into my chest, thanks very much.
-Ray
kestrel
07-10-2006, 06:15 AM
.................................. But the head-butt was pretty over the top, even if he was being baited. He had to know what they were trying to do and the best revenge would have been ignoring it until....later. And it was outside the game - he wasn't going for the ball. He just wailed on a guy with a nearly lethal weapon. I've tried heading a soccer ball a few times in my life and I'm always amazed at how painful it can be - what these guys do defies explanation. Any head that can do what their's do - I don't want it smashing into my chest, thanks very much.
-Ray
That headbutt was definitely over the top.... A step and a half forward, arms thrown back, neck snapping the head into the chest..... oh yes, that will leave a mark! It had the potential to crack bone.
1. I seriously doubt that Zindane intended his penalty kick to bounce off the crossbar and carom a foot or two inside the goal line. Perhaps he should have headed the PK.
2. Marco Materazzi knows how to use head; once for scoring with his own and once for getting it from Zidane (and maybe for saying to Zidane something like "votre maman....").
3. The Italian victory brought Larry Bird to mind; not pretty, but effective. There's nothing wrong with winning ugly.
4. Maybe Domenech could have used a Scorpio in the final analysis. I can't see Belichick, Parcells, and Walsh having astrology on their to do lists, but that's a different kind of football.
5. The ultimate irony - Zindane wins the World Cup Gold Ball.
keno
Fat Robert
07-10-2006, 07:02 AM
3. The Italian victory brought Larry Bird to mind; not pretty, but effective. There's nothing wrong with winning ugly.
keno
yo atmo:
you want i should pay this guy a visit?
yo horse therapy guy:
bird was bootiful
ti_boi
07-10-2006, 08:22 AM
I like guys like Zidane. In fact I can relate to him more than most of the sissyfied fruitcakes falling all over each other and holding their teammates like teddy bears whilst the kickers connect. ATMO.... :rolleyes: That being said...it is a case study as to the perils of the explosive temper and the possible results that such violence can incur.
Lincoln
07-10-2006, 11:07 AM
Uhhm, how about instant replay for every goal or foul in the box? If the player took a dive, then award a red card. If there's foul, then award a penalty kick.
I don't have a problem with IR. At first I was opposed to it becausee it takes away from the flow of the game but considering how much time they spend rolling around on the ground in "agony" the replay will be done before the players are done getting the "magic sponge" treatment.
72gmc
07-10-2006, 11:29 AM
the play i can't get out of my head is zidane's 'first' header. that was an absolutely spectacular service and header. perfect placement in the box, zidane waaaay up in the air and completely extended, and then redirecting the ball like a bolt of lightning. when buffon stopped that it was the anti-goal of the tournament--as exciting as a stop can get.
kestrel
07-10-2006, 11:55 AM
Here's Zindane's second header of the match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOGL9y-ggVU&search=zidane
the play i can't get out of my head is zidane's 'first' header. that was an absolutely spectacular service and header. perfect placement in the box, zidane waaaay up in the air and completely extended, and then redirecting the ball like a bolt of lightning. when buffon stopped that it was the anti-goal of the tournament--as exciting as a stop can get.
Not quite Gordon Banks stopping Pele's header in 1970, but definitely the play of this game...
It just wasn't the night for the French to win....they had their opportunities, but couldn't finish.
Zidane lost his cool, but I hardly think it affected the outcome of the game. There wasn't that much time left (10 minutes?). Not being available for the PK's is a non issue. Making PK's is a concentration issue, not a skill issue (at the pro level). Pick your spot and don't change your mind....goal.
Tough game....I wanted the French to start, but the Azzurri won me over by the end.
Just four more years to go..... :beer:
mdeeds71
07-10-2006, 12:42 PM
All in all, I agree bad sportsmanship, but there is not a rider or footballer on this site that has not lost his/her temper one way or another. Having played in England and being from the US, I can honostly say the level of "dirty play" and "diving" is a true artform in the EU.
As for Zidane, he still is the BEST ball handler in the world and he retired that way...so he left under a red card...that does s*ck. If you watch other fotage of the game you will see he nearly had his shorts around his ankles by the defenders several times. Oh and watch around the 74-90 minute segments where he was taken down, sans ball, by two defenders. So yes temper will fly and irrational thoughts/actions happen...Go ahead and tell me this has never happened to any of you.
I was red carded out of my last game for Ipsw. back in 89 when I decided my shin was worth more than the strikers foot and proceeded after I bled for 65 yards, to crush his foot.
72gmc
07-10-2006, 12:51 PM
I decided my shin was worth more than the strikers foot
i was a fullback/sweeper for most of my soccer years. never met a striker that didn't deserve a healthy dirt snack at one time or another.
i was a fullback/sweeper for most of my soccer years. never met a striker that didn't deserve a healthy dirt snack at one time or another.
Hey! I resemble that remark.... :cool:
You're local to Seattle..yes? My apologies if we ever played against each other....
72gmc
07-10-2006, 01:07 PM
Hey! I resemble that remark.... :cool:
You're local to Seattle..yes? My apologies if we ever played against each other....
no apologies necessary. i'm sure you were one of the strikers who worked hard at creating chances rather than standing around, cherry-picking, and kicking at the ball when my keeper had it trapped on the ground. i liked playing against guys like you.
and let's face it: like cycling now, any day playing soccer back then was better than pretty much any day we didn't play.
Idris Icabod
07-10-2006, 01:10 PM
I was red carded out of my last game for Ipsw. back in 89 when I decided my shin was worth more than the strikers foot and proceeded after I bled for 65 yards, to crush his foot.
Wow, you played for Ipswich? I am very impressed. I probably saw you play. I am an avid Tigers (Hull) fan and more than likely went to the game, although don't remember it. I always liked John Wark, but did you understand anything he said? You didn't nobble any Hull player did you (Peter Swan), if you did then I must therefore blame you for the last 15 years of misery, although the last couple have been a vast improvement. Do you still play?
goonster
07-10-2006, 01:34 PM
I was red carded out of my last game for Ipsw. back in 89
You played at Portman Road with John Wark? Respect!
There's been a lot of talk about the diving, etc. The way I see it, it's a part of the game, whether we like it or not, and the introduction of IR would not eliminate it. Let's not mess with the game, or we'll end up with a laughable travesty, like the first few years of MLS.
There are two kinds of dives. The first is intended to "sell" a foul for a free kick, or a penalty, or to get an opponent disciplined. A lot of this stuff really is despicable, and to root it out would take a shift in player culture. At some level, players are admired for gaining an advantage for their team. It is said that this is more prevalent in some cultures than others. Whatever, the bottom line is that if both sides do it the advantages are cancelled, the game's outcome may be decided by a phantom event, and the game devolves into a farce. Most egregious example: Rivaldo getting a ball in the shins and then falling to ground clutching his face. FIFA should have made an example of him then, and banned him for several games, as opposed to merely fining him some chump change.
The second kind of dive is the player who lets himself fall, after being fouled, and is then slow to get up, until the magic spray is applied on the touchline. More often than not, this is the method by which a stoppage of play is introduced into a game with no timeouts (TV or otherwise). The players are simply tired, and being slow to get up is a natural response. Sadly, this gives us the deplorable image of grown professionals acting like children, but if one understands and accepts the causes, its mostly harmless.
http://homedir-a.libsyn.com/podcasts/soccergossip/images/Essien_Horror_Tackle.jpg
catulle
07-10-2006, 01:49 PM
You played at Portman Road with John Wark? Respect!
There's been a lot of talk about the diving, etc. The way I see it, it's a part of the game, whether we like it or not, and the introduction of IR would not eliminate it. Let's not mess with the game, or we'll end up with a laughable travesty, like the first few years of MLS.
There are two kinds of dives. The first is intended to "sell" a foul for a free kick, or a penalty, or to get an opponent disciplined. A lot of this stuff really is despicable, and to root it out would take a shift in player culture. At some level, players are admired for gaining an advantage for their team. It is said that this is more prevalent in some cultures than others. Whatever, the bottom line is that if both sides do it the advantages are cancelled, the game's outcome may be decided by a phantom event, and the game devolves into a farce. Most egregious example: Rivaldo getting a ball in the shins and then falling to ground clutching his face. FIFA should have made an example of him then, and banned him for several games, as opposed to merely fining him some chump change.
The second kind of dive is the player who lets himself fall, after being fouled, and is then slow to get up, until the magic spray is applied on the touchline. More often than not, this is the method by which a stoppage of play is introduced into a game with no timeouts (TV or otherwise). The players are simply tired, and being slow to get up is a natural response. Sadly, this gives us the deplorable image of grown professionals acting like children, but if one understands and accepts the causes, its mostly harmless.
http://homedir-a.libsyn.com/podcasts/soccergossip/images/Essien_Horror_Tackle.jpg
I agree. That kind'a stuff is part of the game, and that's why refs are trained and paid. As a matter of fact, in soccer as well as in boxing, somewhere along the line you'll get training precisely about how to cheat without getting caught. With national selections, or professionally, you'll even get experienced referees to teach you how it is done. Even if you're not planning or told to cheat, it is always important to know every aspect of the game. If you're boxing, you better know how to reciprocate an elbow or how to avoid a head butt. If you're playing soccer, you better learn how to drop someone who's after your heels with an ever slight touch on the side of the knee. There is a pink (?) zone in the game that no regulation will ever be able to get rid off, atmo.
jwprolo
07-10-2006, 05:13 PM
This is easy to say as a USSA class 6 ref, but some of the problem seems to be the lack of decision making by the official. Say there is some possible contact, and someone goes down, screaming and clutching his ankle. The only wrong call to make is to not make any. If you see it as a foul, you need to call it. If you see it as a dive, the rules say you need to award a yellow at the next stoppage. Unless there is a penalty for getting caught for acting, no reason to stop trying. Of course, it is true that the FIFA and UEFA game is officiated differently than the US game, and to that end I am not privy.
mdeeds71
07-10-2006, 05:16 PM
Diving...kind of like the performance enhancers in cycling...you just have to accept it.
I was not very good at it...had a tendancy to dribble fast thus get away from the hackers (right footer on a left field made for interesting crosses)...or get even and get caught. I think my shins still have no nerve endings. God I miss it! I may just join a 35+ legue and get hammered then do stage races :D
So what ever happened to Flamengo or the others back then???
If anyone remembers #12 Ipswch that was a long time ago (88-89)...and I miss it very much. But don't blame me for the problems that followed, I was just a lowly american playing big boy english football (occasionaly, aver 22min a game 11 asst, 2 goals). Would have been my last chance at WC this year if I did what I should have (35 years old now).
Now I need a drink...Here's to the footballers and the WC and a waiting again for 4 years...I am going this time to watch...
Erik.Lazdins
07-10-2006, 08:06 PM
the play i can't get out of my head is zidane's 'first' header. that was an absolutely spectacular service and header. perfect placement in the box, zidane waaaay up in the air and completely extended, and then redirecting the ball like a bolt of lightning. when buffon stopped that it was the anti-goal of the tournament--as exciting as a stop can get.
What a play!
Ditto on your comments.
obtuse
07-10-2006, 09:49 PM
maybe when i call you a terrorist and a ****** you'll just walk away and smile. he looked to see if a ref was looking and a "referee's assistant" should not be able to make that call. if a ref doesn't see it it hasn't happened.
obtuse
maybe when i call you a terrorist and a ****** you'll just walk away and smile. he looked to see if a ref was looking and a "referee's assistant" should not be able to make that call. if a ref doesn't see it it hasn't happened.
obtuse
that's an interesting chestnut abdullah.
they bent the rules and a ref's assistant
was allowed to call it atmo? awesome.
maybe when i call you a terrorist and a ****** you'll just walk away and smile. he looked to see if a ref was looking and a "referee's assistant" should not be able to make that call. if a ref doesn't see it it hasn't happened.
obtuse
Ya have to wonder whether any official actually saw it in real time--either the fella on the sideline was very, very slow to relay the information or somebody made the famous live-or-memorex mistake.
obtuse
07-10-2006, 10:02 PM
that's an interesting chestnut abdullah.
they bent the rules and a ref's assistant
was allowed to call it atmo? awesome.
yes. plus; zidane is the best footballer in the world...you don't step to a guy like that. my wife who is the biggest football fan in the world disagrees and thinks zidane lost the wc for france and should never be forgiven and should be sent to guantanomo because as far as she's concerned the eyetalian was half right; he is a terrorist; (but not a ******- he is arab and therefore a semite much like yourself only with a better chip shot and a worse cross dismount but i digress,) in any case i like his style in a gay vague way.
obtuse
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,28783-2263995,00.html
An apparent update of "your mother wears army boots" trash talk said to do the trick.
Even cricket has its trash talkers, and some of it gets quite up close and personal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledging_%28cricket%29
keno
maybe when i call you a terrorist and a ****** you'll just walk away and smile. he looked to see if a ref was looking and a "referee's assistant" should not be able to make that call. if a ref doesn't see it it hasn't happened.
obtuse
If you know he's doing it to get a reaction like the one he ultimately got, you DON'T react during the game, you direct your anger, kick his buttocks all over the field, and then AFTER the game, you have him be-headed.
I'll never forget some inconsequential Kincks-Bulletts game I saw as a kid. Clyde was destroying Phil Chenier on the court and Chenier finally snapped and said something to him. At which point Frazier went into another level and completely took over the game, crushing Chenier and the Bulletts. I was a Bulletts fan, so I remember this VERY clearly. I don't know if he took any additional retribution after the game, but he sure reacted the effective way DURING it.
In this case, the taunt worked, so I guess Materazzi was the much more effective terrorist.
-Ray
to what happened: http://zidanesavesmaterazzi.ytmnd.com/
ti_boi
07-11-2006, 07:53 AM
Brooklyn in da house! t' :beer: anks for clearing this up....Zidane is da man.
Fat Robert
07-11-2006, 08:08 AM
is that pacenti's cat?
this thing could go deeper than puerto
jwprolo
07-11-2006, 10:15 AM
...and a "referee's assistant" should not be able to make that call. if a ref doesn't see it it hasn't happened.
obtuse
Not quite. Big games have an official position called the 4th referee. It is, in fact, his job to control the bench, and catch things behind the play that the 3 field referees did not see. It is my understanding that this is where the call came from.
goonster
07-11-2006, 11:52 AM
Ya have to wonder whether any official actually saw it in real time--either the fella on the sideline was very, very slow to relay the information or somebody made the famous live-or-memorex mistake.
I think it was really quite simple and straightforward . . .
A player goes down away from the play and the game is halted. At this point there is bedlam, with the victim writhing on the pitch and various players converging on the ref, gesturing with their fingertips all bunched up, and various other players getting into it with each other.
The ref's first priority, at this point, is not to worry about who felled who, but to make sure the possibly injured player is attended to and to chill all the mofos out and restore some semblance of order. That's why you often see the referee shaking his head, backpedaling and generally running away from players who are very eager to share their version of events. Then, when the initial rush of blood has subsided, and he judges it unlikely that further punches will be thrown, he makes a beeline over to the linesman, or fourth official, gets their input, and then makes a final decision on disciplinary action.
That's exactly how it went down in the final, and it all seemed perfectly legit to me as I was watching in real time. The only controversy would be if the fourth official or linesman saw a replay on the sidelines, or on the Jumbotron, and then based his advice to the ref on that footage. They are not supposed to do that, and the officials are denying it.
That's also why, even if the ref saw everything go down right before his eyes (e.g. the De Rossi/McBride and Rooney/Ronaldo incidents), it sometimes takes a while for the red card to come out, and that delay does not mean that the ref is unsure about the call and is debating it with all sorts of people.
Russell
07-11-2006, 12:07 PM
maybe when i call you a terrorist and a ****** you'll just walk away and smile. he looked to see if a ref was looking and a "referee's assistant" should not be able to make that call. if a ref doesn't see it it hasn't happened.
obtuse
I thought if the ref asks directly he can get help, but the side judges cannot give unsolicited information.
catulle
07-11-2006, 12:38 PM
I thought if the ref asks directly he can get help, but the side judges cannot give unsolicited information.
Correct.
that none of you who are on Zidane's side because of what you may see as a gap in the officiating rules are either anti-Lance or spirit of the sport folks when it comes to cycling. Hope, nah, too strong. Wonder, at best.
keno
I think it was really quite simple and straightforward . . .
A player goes down away from the play and the game is halted. At this point there is bedlam, with the victim writhing on the pitch and various players converging on the ref, gesturing with their fingertips all bunched up, and various other players getting into it with each other.
The ref's first priority, at this point, is not to worry about who felled who, but to make sure the possibly injured player is attended to and to chill all the mofos out and restore some semblance of order. That's why you often see the referee shaking his head, backpedaling and generally running away from players who are very eager to share their version of events. Then, when the initial rush of blood has subsided, and he judges it unlikely that further punches will be thrown, he makes a beeline over to the linesman, or fourth official, gets their input, and then makes a final decision on disciplinary action.
That's exactly how it went down in the final, and it all seemed perfectly legit to me as I was watching in real time. The only controversy would be if the fourth official or linesman saw a replay on the sidelines, or on the Jumbotron, and then based his advice to the ref on that footage. They are not supposed to do that, and the officials are denying it.
That's also why, even if the ref saw everything go down right before his eyes (e.g. the De Rossi/McBride and Rooney/Ronaldo incidents), it sometimes takes a while for the red card to come out, and that delay does not mean that the ref is unsure about the call and is debating it with all sorts of people.
Everything you say is right. It still seemed to take too long. Plainly the referee did not see the foul. And nobody noticed any sideline official make any sort of indication for a while. That's why I--and so many folks--wonder whether the sideline call wasn't facilitated by a tv replay.
catulle
07-12-2006, 11:45 AM
The day before yesterday or maybe the day before, the local TV newscasters were commenting on the Zidane event. However, they were talking at the end of the newscast, after the guy narrating the sports news had announced that Zidane had been named MVP. Their comment (from a man and a woman) was that anyone would be expected to react like Zidane if his mother were insulted. Basically, they were pretending to justify Zidane's action after the international press had awarded him the MVP prize.
These same talking heads are the ones who howl about civilization going to pot because of violence on the streets, an unruly youth, workers demanding fair wages, and so on. The more I watch TV, the more I want to move to the top of a tree in the midst of the Amazon, atmo.
The more I watch TV, the more I want to move to the top of a tree in the midst of the Amazon, atmo.
think globally, act forumly atmo.
obtuse
07-12-2006, 12:07 PM
that none of you who are on Zidane's side because of what you may see as a gap in the officiating rules are either anti-Lance or spirit of the sport folks when it comes to cycling. Hope, nah, too strong. Wonder, at best.
keno
why? i appreciated what lance was doing when he punked out simeoni....i just happen to be an apologist for french footballers with attitude. don't know why; i thought the fan deserved it when cantona gave the flying drop kick too.
obtuse
catulle
07-12-2006, 12:15 PM
think globally, act forumly atmo.
The media gives me furuncles between the glutei, atmo.
The more I watch TV, the more I want to move to the top of a tree in the midst of the Amazon, atmo.
I sometimes feel that way too, but then I remember there are no trees left in the Amazon.
-Ray
goonster
07-12-2006, 01:45 PM
One of the downsides of signing up for cable for June and July is that I'm subjected to the most outrageous drivel. I will resist the temptation to digress too far afield, but it was truly nauseating to watch every cable channel sports host pontificate about the World Cup in general, and especially about The Headbutt.
No, it doesn't matter one bit what Materazzi said. Anyway, I like the theory of the nipple twist, which the footage supports because you can see Zizou flinch just before Materazzi pulls his hand away. Finally I think that Materazzi, who is 33 years old, if he didn't deserve one before, definitely deserves a headbutt now for expecting us to believe that he doesn't know what an "islamic terrorist" is. And finally finally, if FIFA rules are followed to the letter of the law, and if it can be substantiated that Materazzi used a racial/ethnic/religious slur (I don't see how it can, but sometimes it is) then Italy could be made to forfeit the game and be stripped of the title. Not that they would . . .
With regard to this incident, I think any controversy is misplaced. Zizou lost it and did something that should never, ever be condoned or justified. He deserved the card, and I don't even care if the official looked at replays. This was the frickin' World Cup final, and if Zidane had stayed on the pitch it would have been a huge stain on the game.
On the plus side, the "Drew Carey at the World Cup" shows on the Travel Channel were actually quite good. Interesting how Drew somehow represents the best side of the American-in-Yurp experience to me (a European living in Murca). Drew is cool.
On the minus side there was Michael Wilbon pontificating about racism in soccer and how he stringently advise black people from attending World Cup games because it would be too dangerous. Sadly, there is overt racism at soccer games in Europe, but Wilbon doesn't understand the first thing about it.
catulle
07-12-2006, 01:53 PM
I sometimes feel that way too, but then I remember there are no trees left in the Amazon.
-Ray
Well, the multinationals are busy killing off the indians first, so there remain a few trees, atmo.
Climb01742
07-12-2006, 01:59 PM
i'm glad the french public has embraced zidane. not because what he did was right; it wasn't. but because what he did was human; he made a mistake; i'm sure he's beating himself up far worse than anyone else could; but his career was a great one; i interpret the french public's response as saying, thank you for all you've done for soccer in france, we won't turn our backs on you because you're human. compare that to how the columbian goalkeeper (yes?) who allowed a losing goal during the last cup and recieved death threats.
William
07-12-2006, 02:00 PM
I saw the move. Bonehead is what comes to mind. He did something stupid, got caught, let his team down, and created the image that most fair weather fans will remember him by. :crap:
'c'est la vie'?
William
catulle
07-12-2006, 02:49 PM
i'm glad the french public has embraced zidane. not because what he did was right; it wasn't. but because what he did was human; he made a mistake; i'm sure he's beating himself up far worse than anyone else could; but his career was a great one; i interpret the french public's response as saying, thank you for all you've done for soccer in france, we won't turn our backs on you because you're human. compare that to how the columbian goalkeeper (yes?) who allowed a losing goal during the last cup and recieved death threats.
Er, it is Colombian. Anyway, I think all human acts from genocide to philanthropy are human by definition, aren't they? Not that I don't feel a bit ambivalent about Zidane's deed; however, he lacked the fortitude to supress an impulse he knew was perfectly self-defeating, and I don't think he deserves a pat on the back for so much. And this wasn't the first time he "erred", on the contrary, other players know he hasn't managed to learn a bit of self-restain after so many years as a professional.
Oh hell, I find it extremely difficult to pass judgement upon anyone, and much more difficult to be critical of someone who knocked someone out during a game because he was insulted or whatever, but Zidane chose the worst moment to screw up. One thing is to spit on the park, and something else is to spit in your mother's shoes or something. He might as well have taken a dump in the middle of the field just when everyone watching the game was admiring his performance. I won't insist, it really doesn't matter much one way or the other. And, after all, the French have always been pretty good with their puppies, whether they bite or not. RIP
compare that to how the columbian goalkeeper (yes?) who allowed a losing goal during the last cup and recieved death threats.
Not to digress, but it was worse than that - it was a defenseman who accidentally scored a game-losing own-goal against his own team (redundant, I know). He was shot and killed outside a bar a couple of weeks after the game, with the shooter reputed (by the player's girlfriend) to call out GOOOOAAAAAL, GOOOOAAAAL, etc, after each of the bulletts he pumped into the guy. No threat to it - just up and shot the poor guy.
People lose perspective over sports all the time. I live near Philly - my town-folk throw snowballs at Santa Claus when the Eagles are losing fercrissakes.
-Ray
you misinterpreted my post. I never had in mind the Armstrong/Simeoni incident, and I'm not even sure what parallel you see between it and the Zidane situation. For my edification, did Armstrong in that case do anything violative of the written rules of racing?
What I intended was simply that some seemed to be taking a very legalistic approach to the Zidane red card to the effect that it was a call not allowed to be made under the rules as they understood them because there was no actual witnessing by the referee as opposed to being helped by the fourth official. My suspicion is that some who make the legalistic argument with respect to Zidane's situation (correctly or not) also "convict" Armstrong with regard to drug usage or doping without legal backing for it, and, as a result in my view are being hypocritical.
keno
<snipped>My suspicion is that some who make the legalistic argument with respect to Zidane's situation (correctly or not) also "convict" Armstrong with regard to drug usage or doping without legal backing for it, and, as a result in my view are being hypocritical.
keno
i'm kinda hypocritical, but in an equal opportunity
sorta' way i think drug use in pro cycling is standard
operating procedure atmo.
catulle
07-12-2006, 04:36 PM
Not to digress, but it was worse than that - it was a defenseman who accidentally scored a game-losing own-goal against his own team (redundant, I know). He was shot and killed outside a bar a couple of weeks after the game, with the shooter reputed (by the player's girlfriend) to call out GOOOOAAAAAL, GOOOOAAAAL, etc, after each of the bulletts he pumped into the guy. No threat to it - just up and shot the poor guy.
People lose perspective over sports all the time. I live near Philly - my town-folk throw snowballs at Santa Claus when the Eagles are losing fercrissakes.
-Ray
More of the same. A bunch of savages with no self-restraint. Like the guy who assaulted Swoop (was it Swoop?) because of some real or imagined grievance during a bicycle race.
nothing hypocritical in that from where I shoot up. Tell me more.
keno
William
07-12-2006, 06:38 PM
nothing hypocritical in that from where I shoot up. Tell me more.
keno
http://www.jinxedclothing.com/_admin/images/his/shoot%20up.jpg
a tattoo I might get into. And "apropos", right in the spirit of the thread, non?
keno
pale scotsman
07-12-2006, 06:54 PM
One of these tattoos (http://www.casheltravel.com/SCOTLAND/upload/tattoo2.jpg)?
nothing hypocritical in that from where I shoot up. Tell me more.
keno
where to start? what do you want to know?
i replied when you posted:
"...also "convict" Armstrong with regard to drug usage
or doping without legal backing for it, and, as a result
in my view are being hypocritical."
and i replied that i was equally hypocritical
them all because my opinion is that drug use
and doping are part of the sport, and that
despite the testing results, i believe that
the participants use drugs or dope as part
of the routine. last year's drug is this year's
dope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Delgado) , so atmo it's all just semantics.
soft hypocrisy (so general as to be highly unlikely to be true, let alone meaningful). Question: is it your view that there is no rider in the tour who is clean?
keno
William
07-13-2006, 05:43 AM
You know, upon closer examination, Mr. Zidane really didn't hurt the Italian player after all. Reverse angle camera clearly shows that. They should have given him a bouquet of flowers and let him stay in the game...That would have been apropos. :rolleyes:
http://erilan.rebelcosplay.com/headbutt.gif
William ;)
soft hypocrisy (so general as to be highly unlikely to be true, let alone meaningful). Question: is it your view that there is no rider in the tour who is clean?
keno
what is clean?
does it mean that they race on god given
talent, determination, and nothing from the
pharmaceutical industry to aid in recovery
or to help maximize their metabolism to
become more effective at what they do?
if so, yeah - i'd say none are clean.
what about you?
then I don't see any hypocrisy in your position if none are clean under the rules (I added the last phrase, as absent it, we're just poundin pudd). Personally, I don't know and I don't care. Let the games continue.
keno
then I don't see any hypocrisy in your position if none are clean under the rules (I added the last phrase, as absent it, we're just poundin pudd). Personally, I don't know and I don't care. Let the games continue.
keno
agreed atmo.
i don't know and i really don't care; it's a beautiful
sport and i follow it regardless. my gut feeling is what
i stated prior, and it's based on following and reading
about the profession and lifestyle since i was a teen.
let 'em shout. let 'em shoot!
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