Are healthy hip flexors the key to a more aero position?

[MattTuck]

Talking standard road bike here, one of my season goals is to complete a 21 mile course in a certain amount of time. I think that being aero is going to help in the cause, and I'm wondering if I should spend some time trying to get more comfortable in a lower position.

Curious if hip flexors (mine are fairly tight) should be the first order of business.

[sandyrs]

You mean you aren't starting by buying a Venge, 808s and $90 shoe covers? :)

Getting low is definitely faster to the point that you can maintain roughly your best power output. Not sure about hip flexors specifically but if that typically limits your ability to get low that seems like a good place to start. I bet you can get around that with a fit focused on getting low, though. You might just need to get used to that new position.

[batman1425]

Hip flexors are one part. Hamstring, lower back, calf, are all important too. I would focus on slowly and deliberately improving your overall flexibility. Then make small changes to your position as your flexibility allows.

Remember too, getting aero only counts if you can still produce power in that position. It may take time to develop strength in the new position - especially if you have been adapted to something else for a long time.

[MattTuck]

You mean you aren't starting by buying a Venge, 808s and $90 shoe covers? :)

Getting low is definitely faster to the point that you can maintain roughly your best power output. Not sure about hip flexors specifically but if that typically limits your ability to get low that seems like a good place to start. I bet you can get around that with a fit focused on getting low, though. You might just need to get used to that new position.

I just notice when my hips are tight, that my upper body seems to curve forward. If they're looser, I can keep my back a bit straighter and lean further forward. This picture is probably an exageration, but it is a good example of how it 'feels'. Picture on the right is the looser hip flexors.

As for the equipment upgrades.... I'm married now. But the bigger issue is that I live in an apartment, and there is no where to hide a new bike and wheels. :)

[numbskull]

I found this thread helpful although for some reason Fuzzalow pulled all his posts.
Near the end there is still some good stuff.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=127601

[Dead Man]

How's the tummy?

I can't get flat when I get fat

[sandyrs]

I just notice when my hips are tight, that my upper body seems to curve forward. If they're looser, I can keep my back a bit straighter and lean further forward. This picture is probably an exageration, but it is a good example of how it 'feels'. Picture on the right is the looser hip flexors.

As for the equipment upgrades.... I'm married now. But the bigger issue is that I live in an apartment, and there is no where to hide a new bike and wheels. :)

I wouldn't call a Venge an upgrade over your Kirk anyways :)

Congrats on the wedding though. And I know the feeling your picture describes. Even day to day I feel this to varying degrees.

[MattTuck]

How's the tummy?

I can't get flat when I get fat

Word. Smaller than earlier in the year. Always gains to be made in that department, and it is on my radar.

[carpediemracing]

I didn't say anything in my blog post but check out the shadows here:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P5bGp_4hYrs/V6umIhXATAI/AAAAAAAAJQw/AwjrfaTEmo4VC4rFfOtTZ-U1v5KSmEXWwCLcB/s800/20160809_Rent-Bs-13-3LapPull.jpg

Guy pulling is very strong but I look at his position and I cringe. I want to roll his hips forward, straighten his back, and move his bars forward so his arms fall comfortably from his shoulders.

Coincidentally that's how my position is. The shadow and camera angle exaggerates the forwardness of my position but it's definitely more forward than most.

One advantage with the forward hip rotation is that even if I'm a bit heavy I can still pedal and not knock the wind out of myself with my thighs. I have to be closer to 190 lbs for that to happen. 170 in the picture.

[carpediemracing]

Talking standard road bike here, one of my season goals is to complete a 21 mile course in a certain amount of time. I think that being aero is going to help in the cause, and I'm wondering if I should spend some time trying to get more comfortable in a lower position.

Curious if hip flexors (mine are fairly tight) should be the first order of business.

One question is "what's the course like?". If it's flat, yes, aero and all that. If it's full of short steep hills then work on short term power and lose some weight. If there are long hills then.... err... do VO2Max intervals?

I think, though, that working on your position would be the first thing to do. Good saddle height, enough reach, enough drop. Typically holding the hoods is more aero (forearm parallel to wind so basically zero profile, upper arm is vertical so ideal direction for non-aero stuff). I don't think hoods are the best place to ride in general but for no traffic, speed attempt, it's probably most efficient. Turtle your head into your shoulders. Narrow elbows.

A close second is to make sure you're not wasting too much energy with flapping clothing etc. I suppose you should shave your legs if the Specialzed WinTunnel has any bearing on reality (http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/news-wind-tunnel-data-shows-shaved-legs-faster_344854).

I don't have proof of it but I suspect that aluminum spoked wheels are slower than similar number steel spoked wheels. I know aero steel spokes are faster than non-aero steel spokes. So pick your wheelset wisely.

Finally rolling resistance can make a huge difference, if a Velonews article (http://velonews.competitor.com/where-the-rubber-meets-the-road-what-makes-cycling-tires-fast) is to be believed. This is for clinchers. Apparently you can spend as much as 50w more just because of tires at 25 mph. This is huge because I know that I rarely average over 200w even in a race, and I'll do 170w on very hard training rides. I happen to train on 66 tpi tires. If they're as bad as they might be, it could be that I'm using 100-110w (50-55w per tire) overcoming only rolling resistance. The fastest tires used 31-32w per tire, or 19-24w less. It means I could net 38-48w. Since I'm only spending about 60w overcoming air resistance, bumping that up to 100-110w would be enormous. I'm almost doubling my air resistance dedicated power.

[doomridesout]

Look into Pigeon Pose-- my go-to yoga pose for on the bike position.

[2metalhips]

Be careful what you wish for. :D

[unterhausen]

Look into Pigeon Pose-- my go-to yoga pose for on the bike position.
this position has been really helpful for me since someone showed it to me earlier this year. My hamstrings were really tight and I was having sciatic nerve related issues, and then I started doing the pigeon pose and things are getting better. Still a little tight. A lot of the high intensity yoga routines involve movements that require more flexibility than cyclists usually have.

[MattTuck]

Here's the likely profile. It has a bit of everything, but is mostly flat. It is one of the most flat routes around here, anyway.


I may have to break out my race tires for the attempt, just to minimize rolling resistance.

[shovelhd]

For me it's my hamstrings. Start working in to sunbathe drops on the road bike then time on the TT bike. You have to train for this stuff.

[Bantamben]

Talk about tight hips and a rounded back
This is as low as I can get mainly because my hip flexors are locked I wake up every morning with hip and lower back pain. I just started dynamic stretching (Tom Kurtz) and it feels much better.


Bad
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k610/bantamben1/B1839B66-B197-4F4E-98EF-30B5A002C78A.png (http://s1118.photobucket.com/user/bantamben1/media/B1839B66-B197-4F4E-98EF-30B5A002C78A.png.html)http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k610/bantamben1/34791853-2B61-49B6-A564-4D71941FF68F.jpg (http://s1118.photobucket.com/user/bantamben1/media/34791853-2B61-49B6-A564-4D71941FF68F.jpg.html)

[MattTuck]

That seems like a lot of curve in your mid/upper back. Does that cause pain/soreness? Maybe raising the handlebars would relieve some of that bend in the spine?

But yes, as I understand it, better hip flexor flexibility (length) can allow you to elongate your front torso, and achieve a flatter back, with a lower position.

[benb]

I think you're on the right track in terms of wanting to keep your back straight. I do a lot better when my position keeps me from flexing my back forwards. Curved back seems to cause lower back pain if it's really bad, if it's not as bad I get longer term soreness in my upper back between the shoulder blades. If your mid back is curved your going to have neck issues down the line too. Cycling can cause the mid back curvature in me as far as I can tell.. too much riding in a bad position stretches out the muscles and my posture both on and off the bike will suffer.

I do notice weight training can alleviate a lot of these symptoms really fast if your back is curving. However I have wicked fast friends who have nasty back curvature from doing nothing but cycling for many many years. Some people can tolerate a ton of curve in their back. I am not one of those people.

If you can tolerate it rotating forward (increasing seat height, reducing setback) you can lower your upper body without bending your back as much. However you risk putting yourself in a position where you have too much weight on your hands.

I'm really flexible, I could (or at least used to be able to) ride a super low position like Terpstra in the above position, but only if the riding was all super high intensity and the duration wasn't long. If I ride like that and have to slow down my left wrist will not tolerate the weight on the hands. For a TT or Crit bike I can/could do it. I'm way too paranoid about the health of my hands/wrists now to do it.

[brenick]

I just finished physical therapy for a piraformis strain. I learned a lot in the process. Part of the diagnosis was weak glutes.

The glutes can't work as well when you have tight hip flexors (which come mostly from being in a sitting position a lot).

So now I do hip flexor stretches every morning.
http://www.stack.com/a/4-hip-flexor-stretches-to-relieve-tight-hips
Another key is to squeeze the glutes while doing the stretch as this signals the hip flexors to relax.

So, fixing your hip flexors may or may not help you become more aero, but it will give you more power from the glutes and allow you to stand up straighter.

[jlwdm]

Just remember that everyone is built differently. Improve on what you have but don't worry about others. Lots of top pros have curved backs in TT mode. And as mentioned you need to be in a position where you can create power and hopefully be comfortable.

Jeff

[Dead Man]

http://www.titanmx.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/annie-leibovitz-lance-armstrong-nude-on-bike-1999-vanity-fair-portrait.jpg

[fuzzalow]

I feel almost badly about voicing a contrary opinion for this topic - almost like I am spoiling the unanimity in agreement in contrived reasoning as to why something cannot be done. I dunno what to tell ya, I'm as much a desk-bound worker as anybody else, I haven't a clue as to how hip flexors dominate your riding experience - rhetorical question as I do understand the biomechanics, just not how it is used here.

I don't want to leave this kinda information unchallenged as if it is universally correct, it is not.

I If you can tolerate it rotating forward (increasing seat height, reducing setback) you can lower your upper body without bending your back as much. However you risk putting yourself in a position where you have too much weight on your hands.

No, do not place excessive weight on you hands. If you are, your fit & position is not balanced and correct. The pic of Terpstra above has very little weight in the hands.

I'm really flexible, I could (or at least used to be able to) ride a super low position like Terpstra in the above position, but only if the riding was all super high intensity and the duration wasn't long. If I ride like that and have to slow down my left wrist will not tolerate the weight on the hands. For a TT or Crit bike I can/could do it. I'm way too paranoid about the health of my hands/wrists now to do it.

If setup correctly, should be able to ride like this all day long. No weight on hands, no core used to hold a position. Just pedal the bike.

I found this thread helpful although for some reason Fuzzalow pulled all his posts.
Near the end there is still some good stuff.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=127601

I pulled my posts because a poster took it upon himself to step into my thread for the purpose of improving my thread. I asked him to start his own thread, with his own ideas expressed in his own way and building on his own credibility, rather than stepping in front of my thread. He refused.

So I pulled my posts and gave him center stage in a multi-year thread I created as a service to the readership and as a resource to this forum. He has responded with nuthin' - I'd guess doing something positive & constructive from scratch is more difficult than crapping into something positive someone else has done.

No hard feelings, I did my best for as long as I could. My motivation for that thread was the same as why I am commenting in this thread now: I don't want readers believing things can't be done simply because there is agreement in a discussion among those that can't do it! It can be done! Just learn how to do it!

This is presented in a positive light in the spirit of moving things forward.

[Mikej]

Flexibility seems to be a genetic inheritance - no matter what I do I'm still inflexible -

[Bantamben]

Good post fuzzalow I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm an avid golfer cycling is my second sport and although I love it I'm not very good compared to my buddies. One reason I believe is my tight hip flexors you can see in the picture of me vs terpstra ( who is obviously an extremely gifted athlete in the sport) that my lower back because of my tight hip flexors is pointed up at about a 45 degree angle even though inn trying to get as low as possible. The rest of my angle is all in my upper back. If you have tight hip flexors a big wake up call is trying power cranks the big gold ones with the clutch built in so each side operates independently. I really struggled to even get my leg over the top of the stroke unless I sat up straight. And even then could only pedal 30 seconds at a time. Shows how much power the opposite leg uses getting that leg over the top. I went with a little shorter cranks and it helped a little, but I really just gotta dedicate to stretching everyday

[Wakatel_Luum]

IMO I believe it is a combination of core strength especially when taking into account the abdominals...also inflexibility and lack of strength in the gluteal muscles influences so much with regard to the hamstrings and the lower back (picture your glutes similar to a hinge on a door). Tight QL's are also misinterpreted as back pain when they are actually linked to the abdominals...while yoga is great focused stretching can eliminate time spent on less urgent areas...

[zap]

If setup correctly, should be able to ride like this all day long. No weight on hands, no core used to hold a position. Just pedal the bike.


This.

But I have to say that as I've gotten older, my hip flexors get tight after rides so I spend time with the foam roller. Also contemplating taking up pilates to strengthen the core......better for my non cycling activities.

[carpediemracing]

If setup correctly, should be able to ride like this all day long. No weight on hands, no core used to hold a position. Just pedal the bike.

I have to think that this depends on body proportions, unless you don't mean "no weight on hands" literally or if, like most "rules", your theory accepts some exceptions. With me my torso is so long that as soon as I lean forward a bit I have to put weight on my hands. My legs, and specifically my quads, are too short to push my butt back far enough to counterweight my torso.

When I got fit last December the guy fitting me asked me to humor him and try out the "no weight on hands" set up, meaning one where I didn't have to put weight on my hands. We ended up with a position that resembled me on a BMX bike. I think we ended up moving my saddle something like 10-20 cm (back and down, keeping saddle->BB distance constant) and the bars up maybe 20 cm? and closer by 5 or 10 cm. I don't remember the numbers but it was something like that, not mm, cm, and a lot of them. At some point in the whirring of gears and such I could still pedal and not have weight on my bars.

However the position, without major retraining on my part, would be terrible for pedaling. I was basically upright (with any implications of glute triggering which I didn't check - I usually do a sanity check when I'm riding by touching my glutes and seeing if they're flexing), I had a lot of weight on my saddle (uncomfortably so), and, guessing a bit here, I'd be using more power to overcome air resistance. Finally, although I don't have any proof of this, I have a feeling my knees wouldn't be as happy, based on my forced position on other bikes (with slack seat tube angles).

I might be missing something but that was my experience.

The other thing is that if you have no weight on your hands then it means that all your weight is on your saddle and your pedals. If you're not pedaling very hard then most of your weight will be on your saddle. I find sitting on the saddle without much weight on the bars (like if I'm sitting up on the bike on the trainer with my hands not on the bars like if I'm fiddling with remotes, the phone, baby monitor, etc) pretty uncomfortable within a minute or so. This may be because there's some adaptation period or retraining necessary on my part. With a more "balanced" approach you'll distribute weight a bit more evenly between the saddle, the bars, and, when pedaling at some minimum power level, your pedals.

[carpediemracing]

One reason I believe is my tight hip flexors you can see in the picture of me vs terpstra ( who is obviously an extremely gifted athlete in the sport) that my lower back because of my tight hip flexors is pointed up at about a 45 degree angle even though inn trying to get as low as possible. The rest of my angle is all in my upper back. If you have tight hip flexors a big wake up call is trying power cranks the big gold ones with the clutch built in so each side operates independently. I really struggled to even get my leg over the top of the stroke unless I sat up straight. And even then could only pedal 30 seconds at a time. Shows how much power the opposite leg uses getting that leg over the top. I went with a little shorter cranks and it helped a little, but I really just gotta dedicate to stretching everyday

Wouldn't tight hip flexors rotate your hips forward? Or is there some interaction with back muscles that I don't understand?

Also, would working on one legged drills (or power crank use) strengthen the muscles or, again, is there some interaction that I don't understand?

[ripvanrando]

BantamBen....even if you were flexible that Colnago looks way too small for you. It would be impossible to have a flat back all bunched up like that. The saddle needs to go back and bars up and out but it looks like this frame is at least one size too small. I dunno. Maybe it is the angle of the photo.

[fuzzalow]

carpediemracing your setup is sui generis. Which is fine as it works for you. But it's unorthodox approach I would not suggest is suitable to application to others.

I have to think that this depends on body proportions, unless you don't mean "no weight on hands" literally or if, like most "rules", your theory accepts some exceptions.

I wouldn't say my view and approach on fit & position is based on "rules" as it is based on underlying balance and skeletal alignments in the support of pedal forces throughout a pedal stroke. Only of which one of several byproducts of being setup correctly is a distinct lack of weight into the hands. As such, it is not the outward result of rules stricture for "no weight on hands" as much as it is no reliance of the handlebars/steerer tube as a weight-bearing frame element of a fit & position.

The other thing is that if you have no weight on your hands then it means that all your weight is on your saddle and your pedals. If you're not pedaling very hard then most of your weight will be on your saddle.

Yes, that is exactly the desired result. The weight bearing points consisting of the bony pelvis sitz bones pointed and driven backwards into the saddle by the forwards rotation of the pelvis. Don't sit on soft tissue down there, it is not God's design for human anatomy to sit on fleshy bits, although correct positioning on a drop bar sport bicycle will squish some of the parts which a good pair of riding shorts will help keep contained comfortably. Squish however doesn't mean load bearing.

I did not wish to sidetrack this into a fit & position discussion. My point was to comment on, what I perceive as, faulty reasoning. I don't understand the reasoning for "short quads" or "tight hip flexors" as reasons why anyone cannot correctly ride and pedal a dropbar sporting bicycle. I understand the biomechanics and these muscle groups don't restrict in a way that prevents a drop bar bicycle posture. Fine if you think it does and I won't even seek to rebut your reason or logician on that. But I do see this as a construct to serve a purpose for preconceived notions and to validate preordained results.

Not everyone wants or needs a position like the picture of Terpstra earlier this thread. But everyone capable of normal range of motion should be capable of riding a drop bar bicycle in the sporting manner of athletic enthusiasts.

[Anarchist]

..........

[benb]

I don't know if I agree with "everyone".

Terpstra might be riding at 200w when he is in active recovery. The pros who ride these positions often put out 2X the power of a lot of riders on these forums. They also weigh next to nothing and a lot of them have atrophied a lot of the weight off their shoulders and arms. That has a big effect on the physics/biomechanics. It's a big part of why everyone feels less and less weight on their hands the more fit they get. Their average pedal forces are going up.

At 200w I have no weight on my hands and have a lot more leeway in the position I ride. That's not a recovery pace for me. It's a pace I can ride for many hours but I still ride at lower power levels than that on a near daily basis.

This whole "pedal forces and biomechanics lift your body and take weight off hands" thing doesn't make any sense if as you minimize the pedal forces.

I'm on a pothole ridden rode following my wife at 13mph or something there is no way I'm putting out enough power for the pedal forces to keep my torso up. I'm going downhill on a sketchy gravel road likewise I'm not going to put out enough power for pedal forces to hold me up. You can do it by just activating your back (easy to do if not pedaling with pedals at 3/9 o'clock) but you still have to have something to push against and it isn't really there if you're soft pedaling.

That is why I say I think these positions only work once you are riding hard enough.

Funny thing with my proportions is if I jack the bars almost level with the saddle I can still barely get my back to a 45 degree angle even on the bar tops. I'm nearly always going to end up pretty low.

I really feel this whole weight on the hands thing big time in 2 situations:
- Do really hard intervals. The in the recovery interval I'm so exhausted I can barely hold myself up. Very very hard not to straighten out arms when trying to recover. Hard to keep a light touch on the bars if the road happens to be rough.
- Following people in a pack who are not necessarily riding a hard pace for me. E.x. did a century with a group that had a 17mph pace back in late May/early June. At that pace I was in active recovery when I was inside the pack. Almost no force on the pedals, more weight on hands, not so comfy when hitting potholes and such.