OT Hosszu's world record

[Birddog]

Did anyone else besides me think that breaking the world record by nearly 2 seconds was a little bit fishy? I can't help but think this will eventually be found out to be a PED case.

[verticaldoug]

No, the individual Medley is an event where that can happen. Michael Phelps essentially broke his own world record by 1.41 s from June to August in 2008 between Olympic trials and olympic finals.

In fact, the progression in World record times for medley is actually bigger in % gains for Men than Women from 2000. And Michael Phelps has lowered the record from 4:11 to 4:03 in that time period.

So if comparing like for like, if you really think Hosszu doped, then in essence, you also have to think Phelps dopes.

If you know swimming, Hosszu worked harder and raced more since her implosion in 2012. I just hopes she divorces her jerk husband.

[Tickdoc]

Did anyone else besides me think that breaking the world record by nearly 2 seconds was a little bit fishy? I can't help but think this will eventually be found out to be a PED case.

No, but I found her husband annoying and her lackluster reaction to it odd.

[rnhood]

No, the individual Medley is an event where that can happen. Michael Phelps essentially broke his own world record by 1.41 s from June to August in 2008 between Olympic trials and olympic finals.

In fact, the progression in World record times for medley is actually bigger in % gains for Men than Women from 2000. And Michael Phelps has lowered the record from 4:11 to 4:03 in that time period.

So if comparing like for like, if you really think Hosszu doped, then in essence, you also have to think Phelps dopes.

If you know swimming, Hosszu worked harder and raced more since her implosion in 2012. I just hopes she divorces her jerk husband.

Agree, its not surprising to see an IM record fall by a second or two.

Her husband may be a jerk but he's done one hell of a good job training her.

[BobO]

Agree, its not surprising to see an IM record fall by a second or two.

Her husband may be a jerk but he's done one hell of a good job training her.

Actually, the last time that particular record fell by more than two seconds was by a known doping East German swimmer. Add to that the strong likelihood that the Shiwen record is not legitimate, she broke the previous record by more than three seconds. In addition, her body looks very much like an East German swimmer from the 80's. With the Olympic history over the past forty years, there's good reason to be dubious of a performance this far as an outlier.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_400_metres_individual_med ley

[Birddog]

Well I'm not the only one after all.......
Said he: “Being surprised that Hosszu might be doping is like going to a strip club and being surprised that the strippers have fake tits!” Apologies if that offends anyone’s delicate sensibilities. Sometimes the best similes are the crude ones.


https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/are-katinka-hosszus-performances-being-aided/

[verticaldoug]

Shiwen broke the record by 1s at the last Olympics. Using your logic, Michael Phelps also doped when he broke his 2004 record by 2 seconds in 2007?

Shiwen's amazing record in 2012 was the last 100m she swam freestyle at an incredibly fast time.

For Hozzsu, she has incredible technique and I do not think her last 100m free was as fast as Shiwen.

So is the elephant in the room- Is Michael Phelps a doper?

[FlashUNC]

Not fast swimmer suddenly becomes fast swimmer? Meathead coach husband who emphasized "weight lifting"?

Yeah, she's tooooooootally clean. I also own this amazing bridge to Brooklyn.

[BobO]

Shiwen broke the record by 1s at the last Olympics. Using your logic, Michael Phelps also doped when he broke his 2004 record by 2 seconds in 2007?

Shiwen's amazing record in 2012 was the last 100m she swam freestyle at an incredibly fast time.

For Hozzsu, she has incredible technique and I do not think her last 100m free was as fast as Shiwen.

Shiwen's record is probably not legitimate, she did the last 50 faster than the men's winner of the same race. That is highly improbable.

Phelps also benefitted from the now banned suit that assisted in massively lowering almost every record. So, his destruction of records wasn't all on freakish ability either.

There was reason to be dubious of Phelps and Bolt as well. Again, her performance was an outlier against the real WR and more so against herself. Is it possible, sure, but, there is reason to be dubious.

[verticaldoug]

Not fast swimmer suddenly becomes fast swimmer? Meathead coach husband who emphasized "weight lifting"?

Yeah, she's tooooooootally clean. I also own this amazing bridge to Brooklyn.

except she has been fast for a long time. She was NCAA champ in 200im 400im and 200 fly in 2011 when she was at USC. She was heavily favorite to win 400im in 2012 , but choked and finished 4th...

She has been dominate in the 200/400 im for past 3 years so it is not like she suddenly appeared. She also holds the 200im record which she set last year.

[wallymann]

Did anyone else besides me think that breaking the world record by nearly 2 seconds was a little bit fishy? I can't help but think this will eventually be found out to be a PED case.

i agree. husband knows a great pharmacist.

[FlashUNC]

except she has been fast for a long time. She was NCAA champ in 200im 400im and 200 fly in 2011 when she was at USC. She was heavily favorite to win 400im in 2012 , but choked and finished 4th...

She has been dominate in the 200/400 im for past 3 years so it is not like she suddenly appeared. She also holds the 200im record which she set last year.

Fast is one thing. This is Michael Phelps/Mark Spitz destroying records fast. And she's only started on this soul-crushing path after likely Monster Energy-fan husband puts her on a "weight lifting" training program?

Yah sure.

[cadence90]

This thread is so typical.

Hosszu has been fast, world-class fast, since 2004.

Ledecky broke an OR today, will likely break 2 WRs this meet. Certain doper too? The AUS 400 Free relay WR girls...certain dopers too? The US girls broke the AR...certain dopers too?

It will be funny (not) to see the reactions/excuses here if Gatlin somehow manages to beat Bolt. :rolleyes:

[wc1934]

No, but I found her husband annoying and her lackluster reaction to it odd.

Husband seems like a jerk (but I don't know him). The broadcaster from nbc is catching heat for referring to him as "the man responsible” for the record-breaking performance.

[verticaldoug]

This thread is so typical.

Hosszu has been fast, world-class fast, since 2004.

Ledecky broke an OR today, will likely break 2 WRs this meet. Certain doper too? The AUS 400 Free relay WR girls...certain dopers too? The US girls broke the AR...certain dopers too?

It will be funny (not) to see the reactions/excuses here if Gatlin somehow manages to beat Bolt. :rolleyes:

If we want to be devil advocates, her coach is an American who swam at USC. So if he brought the performance enhancers, all he has done is introduce America technology to the Hungarians.So why not doubt every fast American swimmer?

[cadence90]

Husband seems like a jerk (but I don't know him). The broadcaster from nbc is catching heat for referring to him as "the man responsible” for the record-breaking performance.

I disagree with the doping allegations (I just think that Hosszu is a great swimmer) but completely agree that his histrionics (as her coach I gather that he is allowed on the deck) are really irritating. That should simply not be allowed, also out of respect to the other competitors. Complete bs.

Just like US gymnast Danell Leyva's equaling annoying father/coach.




That said, since there is no consolidated Olympics thread:

Indoor men's volleyball is awesome.
I hate the beach games, but the indoor speed/precision/power are really fun to watch.

[FlashUNC]

This thread is so typical.

Hosszu has been fast, world-class fast, since 2004.

Ledecky broke an OR today, will likely break 2 WRs this meet. Certain doper too? The AUS 400 Free relay WR girls...certain dopers too? The US girls broke the AR...certain dopers too?

It will be funny (not) to see the reactions/excuses here if Gatlin somehow manages to beat Bolt. :rolleyes:

Ledecky has been breaking records at the senior level ever since her first meet. She came onto the scene faster than just about anyone around. She didn't suddenly go from your typical world class competitor to suddenly eating people's souls. She's been doing that from day 1.

Not, yanno, having a royal choke job at the 2012 Olympics and suddenly coming back with rage-holic husband/coach and becoming other worldly.

But I wouldn't put it past Ledecky either. If we've learned anything the last 20 years, its that no one at the highest level of their Olympic sport is competing clean.

[cadence90]

Ledecky has been breaking records at the senior level ever since her first meet. She came onto the scene faster than just about anyone around. She didn't suddenly go from your typical world class competitor to suddenly eating people's souls. She's been doing that from day 1.

Not, yanno, having a royal choke job at the 2012 Olympics and suddenly coming back with rage-holic husband/coach and becoming other worldly.

But I wouldn't put it past Ledecky either. If we've learned anything the last 20 years, its that no one at the highest level of their Olympic sport is competing clean.
Whatever. these "discussions" are so tiresome.

[CunegoFan]

No, the individual Medley is an event where that can happen. Michael Phelps essentially broke his own world record by 1.41 s from June to August in 2008 between Olympic trials and olympic finals.

In fact, the progression in World record times for medley is actually bigger in % gains for Men than Women from 2000. And Michael Phelps has lowered the record from 4:11 to 4:03 in that time period.

So if comparing like for like, if you really think Hosszu doped, then in essence, you also have to think Phelps dopes.

If you know swimming, Hosszu worked harder and raced more since her implosion in 2012. I just hopes she divorces her jerk husband.

That is brilliant. We cannot suspect Hosszu because then we'll have to suspect Phelps, and we know that Phelps has to be clean because...well...because...well, you got me. I guess it is inconceivable that some who dominates a dope filled sport like Olympic swimming could be doping if he wins enough and is American.

[Anarchist]

Would the certainty that she is a doper be as firm if she were swimming for the USA?

[BobO]

Would the certainty that she is a doper be as firm if she were swimming for the USA?

1. For my part, no certainty was expressed. Call it strong suspicion.
2. Yes.

[Birddog]

My eyebrows were raised by her performance, hence the question and this thread.

[harlond]

I suspect everybody of doping, including whoever finished second. Considering history and human nature, it seems the most sensible position. That way, I can enjoy the competition without succumbing to rampant speculation and reading of entrails or tea leaves or whatever.

[Bob Ross]

you also have to think Phelps dopes.
Is Michael Phelps a doper?



https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/screen-shot-2015-12-16-at-3-47-36-pm.png?w=1000&h=550

[malcolm]

I know nothing about swimming but I've observed human nature all my life.

I'll admit when I saw Hosszu I told my wife she looked like she had a taste of anabolics. Then when she broke the WR by two seconds i was like well that's certainly suspicious.
then Ledecky also broke the record by two seconds and just on appearance she doesn't look roided, for what that's worth.

I hope they are clean, but I'm always reminded of an article I read back in the late '70s or early '80s. Some journalist asked Olympic hopefuls if they would take a drug that would ensure them a gold medal but would cost them 10 years of their life and almost all unequivocally said they would. When your entire world is wrapped up in training and preparing for an athletic event it just becomes who you are and most will consider anything that will improve their performance. Mix that with being surrounded by the right or wrong people if you will and it's a formula for bad decisions.

I have no idea especially concerning swimming but if you can extrapolate from other sports especially strength and endurance sports history would suggest it's wise to be suspicious.

[deechee]

Well, you guys made me watch the race. Really impressive with absolutely no fading by the time she gets to freestyle.

http://olympics.cbc.ca/video/vod/hungaria-hosszu-wins-gold-sets-world-record-women-400m-individual-medley.html

[malcolm]

Would the certainty that she is a doper be as firm if she were swimming for the USA?


For me it certainly would although I wouldn't say certainty I would say suspicion.

[unterhausen]

Washington post spreads the rumors https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/katinka-hosszu-swimmings-iron-lady-is-raising-all-kinds-of-eyebrows/2016/08/07/3221c0be-5ccf-11e6-9d2f-b1a3564181a1_story.html

I think that some of these sports have to be dominated by dopers. There is a lot of money in it. Turns out the African marathon runners were so good because they were doping. This NYT graphic convinces me that the 100m is fueled by doping. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/05/sports/olympics/the-100-meter-dash-one-race-every-medalist-ever.html?_r=0

[spartanKid]

One of the biggest pieces of evidence for Hozzu's less-than-clean performances is not her overall speed, but the fact that during the World Cup season she'll post World-leading times in 4-6 events over the span of 3 days, week-in and week-out, while presumably having a high training load too.

Lots of drugs (steroids, HGH, etc.) help endurance athletes primarily with recovery and handling high training loads...which would certainly HELP some one post fast times while also being in a large training block.

That being said, she hasn't failed a test, so I am not inclined to throw stones just yet.

[rnhood]

Drugs don't help swimming form or skill level, and a lack of either will never put one on the podium - regardless of any drugs.

[pasadena]

Don't know if Phelps dopes but all pot is going to do is make him sleepy and hungry for taco bell

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/screen-shot-2015-12-16-at-3-47-36-pm.png?w=1000&h=550

[CunegoFan]

Drugs don't help swimming form or skill level, and a lack of either will never put one on the podium - regardless of any drugs.

Not that long ago people were saying the same thing about baseball.

[unterhausen]

baseball players screwed things up by getting greedy and breaking the wrong home run records

[oldpotatoe]

baseball players screwed things up by getting greedy and breaking the wrong home run records

A-Rod retires, BTW-last game this friday..still gets paid thru 2017..nice gig for an admitted doper. Glad he retires w/o the **home run record**. Says he 'loves the game'..think he loves the $ more.

[malcolm]

Drugs don't help swimming form or skill level, and a lack of either will never put one on the podium - regardless of any drugs.

Drugs alone never put anyone on a podium. They won't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. I can tell you from personal experience I used to power lift many years ago and experiment with anabolics and they certainly made me much stronger hugely so, but at best I was still mediocre, just didn't have the genes.

Drugs provide what top tier athletes need for that little separation from the other top tier athletes. Doped to the gills you still have to be equipped by nature and train like a fiend. It's just that extra few percent.

[CampyorBust]

I think swimmer’s bodies are often ideal examples of perfect human male physique, somewhat less so for "ideal" feminine form. The highly developed (linebacker) shoulders and pectoralis/trapezius/deltoid area muscles are more in the fashion of Michelangelo’s take on female form. Hosszu is a strangely appealing example of this, I would like to sculpt her. She is in a way a living personification of the way Michelangelo paints a woman.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/PedalPusher33/GM21213-800x532_zps9xvdbpjj.jpg

[pasadena]

I think swimmer’s bodies are often ideal examples of perfect human male physique, somewhat less so for "ideal" feminine form. The highly developed (linebacker) shoulders and pectoralis/trapezius/deltoid area muscles are more in the fashion of Michelangelo’s take on female form. Hosszu is a strangely appealing example of this, I would like to sculpt her. She is in a way a living personification of the way Michelangelo paints a woman.


Michelangelo painted women androgynously and often like men, because that was the style in the time. He was also gay and favored the masculine, but the male form was considered ideal so his women were portrayed that way.
Androgyny was a popular aesthetic back then, and some went the other way and painted men as more feminine

He did not draw women like a modern female swimmer, though. I dont see much resemblance there

Hosszu is really pretty though, as are a lot of elite athletes. Purpose built and trained bodies are amazing art subjects.

[Davist]

I think the Libyan Sybil from the Sistine chapel would be a good swimmer.. ;)

I thought the reason they were androgynous is b/c they only had male models at the time, but I could be mistaken.

http://www.italian-renaissance-art.com/images/Sistine-Chapel-Libyan-Sibyl.jpg

I don't think the HU swimmer looks that much different than the US / other girls, good entertainment value. Having Hungarian in-laws and cousins, I know they take swimming (and especially water polo) very seriously..

[rnhood]

If Hosszu's arms get any bigger she will be competition for Serena. As they age they can transition right into weight lifting.

[Waldo]

No idea what this means, but Hosszu was a no-show for 200 fly prelims she was scheduled to swim this morning.
https://swimswam.com/katinka-hosszu-no-show-womens-200-fly-prelims/

Discuss...

[rnhood]

When they suddenly bail out and leave, it can be indicative of obtaining inside info that an unannounced drug test will take place - as was rumored to be the case last year when Sun Yang bailed from the 1500m event. But in the case of Hosszu, she seems to have a legitimate excuse given her strengths and weaknesses between fly and IM.

[verticaldoug]

No idea what this means, but Hosszu was a no-show for 200 fly prelims she was scheduled to swim this morning.
https://swimswam.com/katinka-hosszu-no-show-womens-200-fly-prelims/

Discuss...

At London 2012, all medalists were drug tested. I do not know the protocol at Rio. But I assume she was already tested
200 IM final is tonight and she is focused on that and probably did not want to waste energy in the butterfly prelims. She has a habit of doing this at big meets.

[harlond]

Did anyone else besides me think that breaking the world record by nearly 2 seconds was a little bit fishy? I can't help but think this will eventually be found out to be a PED case.Katie Ledecky even worse, right? That margin of victory is just not normal.

[cadence90]

katie ledecky even worse, right? That margin of victory is just not normal.
,
.

[Drmojo]

,
.

so true

[FlashUNC]

If they shot up a 15 year old for the 2012 London Games, then the US program is East German level of organization and scum baggery.

Ledecky has been wrecking souls ever since she stepped into the pool at the Olympic Trials in 2012. Rio didn't come out of nowhere with her, unlike a lot of other competitors.

[ftf]

If they shot up a 15 year old for the 2012 London Games, then the US program is East German level of organization and scum baggery.

Ledecky has been wrecking souls ever since she stepped into the pool at the Olympic Trials in 2012. Rio didn't come out of nowhere with her, unlike a lot of other competitors.

You are assuming a state sponsored doping program. Many parents are more than willing to dope their children to play football in this country, what makes you think swimmers parents are unwilling?

I'm not saying she is or is not doping, no way to tell, but to just assume one or the other is wrong.

[cadence90]

Hosszú has been in the soul-wrecking business for far longer, and has demonstrated a very normal progression, but, being from Hungary (despite having been a USC/Dave Salo swimmer) and all that...she must be a doper. :rolleyes:

#jingolympics


Swimming career
Hosszú is renowned throughout the swimming world for swimming many events well in a short space of time. Since 2012 she is coached by her husband, Shane Tusup, a former swimmer at University of Southern California, on a one-on-one basis. She was previously coached by Dave Salo.

2004 European Short Course Swimming Championships
She won her first medal at the 2004 European Short Course Swimming Championships, a bronze in the 400m medley.

2009 World Championships
At the 2009 World Championships she won two bronze medals in the 200m medley and 200m butterfly, before becoming World Champion in the 400m medley. She was elected Hungarian Sportswoman of the Year for her achievements.

2010 European Championships
At the 2010 European Championships held in her home country, she won a silver medal in the 400m medley and became European Champion in the 200m butterfly, the 200m medley and as a member of the 4 × 200m freestyle relay team.

2012 Summer Olympic Games
Competing in the 2012 Summer Olympics, she finished fourth in the final of the Women's 400m individual medley, with a time of 4:33.49. After the Olympics, Hosszú decided to part with her coach Dave Salo, and since then she's been coached by her husband (then boyfriend) Shane Tusup, a former professional swimmer himself.

2013 World Championships
At the 2013 World Championships, she pulled out of the 100m backstroke after qualifying second in the heats (preliminary races), to concentrate on the final of the 200m individual medley which she subsequently won with a time of 2:07.92.

2013 World Cup
At the 2013 World Cup she set world records in the 100m IM, 200m IM and 400m IM, breaking the 200m record two times and the 100m record three times during the World Cup series.

In 2014 Hosszú broke the short course world record in the 100m and 200m individual backstroke and in the 100m, 200m, and 400m individual medley.

2015 World Championships
At the 2015 World Championships in Kazan, Katinka Hosszú again dealt with a monster program, competing in the 200m IM, 100m backstroke, 200m freestyle, 200m butterfly, 100m freestyle, 200m backstroke and 400m IM. She posted the top time in prelims of the 100m backstroke, but elected to pull out of the semi final to concentrate on the 200m IM final, a decision which ultimately paid off; she broke the tech suited world record of Ariana Kukors from 2009 in a stunning swim of 2.06.12. Hosszú's time of 58.78 in the prelims of the 100m backstroke would have earned her a bronze medal in the final, however the 200m IM final was 30 minutes after the backstroke semis and swimming it might have cost her the world record in the IM. To go along with the 200 IM performance, she won bronze in the 200 back, was 5th in the 200 free, and capped it off with a victory in the 400 IM on the last day.

2015 European Short Course Championships
Hosszú won six gold medals at the 2015 European Short Course Championships, sweeping all three backstroke and three individual medley events. She broke world records in the 100m and 400m individual medley.

2016 Summer Olympic Games
At the 2016 Summer Olympics in Rio de Janeiro, Hosszú won the gold medal and broke the world record in the 400m individual medley, won the gold medal and broke the Olympic record in the 200m individual medley, and won a third gold medal in the 100m backstroke. She also won a silver in the 200m backstroke.

[FlashUNC]

You are assuming a state sponsored doping program. Many parents are more than willing to dope their children to play football in this country, what makes you think swimmers parents are unwilling?

I'm not saying she is or is not doping, no way to tell, but to just assume one or the other is wrong.

All due respect to the Ledeckys who I am sure are bright folks, but for someone like her to avoid a possible doping positive for four years would take some kind of higher involvement, given the way she's been obliterating the record book.

Hypothetically, if two suburban DC parents can dope their child into possibly the greatest swimmer ever, then its a wonder anyone gets caught.

So yeah, I assume a state sponsored program, especially since Katie Ledecky has been in the USOC system now for quite awhile.

[FlashUNC]

Hosszú has been in the soul-wrecking business for far longer, and has demonstrated a very normal progression, but, being from Hungary (despite having been a USC/Dave Salo swimmer) and all that...she must be a doper. :rolleyes:

#jingolympics

Its not jingo Olympics. Its "weight training program" magically enhances her abilities beyond where she's ever been before.

Silvers and bronzes until London 2012. All at the world class level, but nothing that necessarily sets her far apart from the competition. She's your standard -- if there is such a thing -- world class swimmer. But coming out of London and then suddenly at the 2013 Worlds, she begins breaking all sorts of records.

[ftf]

All due respect to the Ledeckys who I am sure are bright folks, but for someone like her to avoid a possible doping positive for four years would take some kind of higher involvement, given the way she's been obliterating the record book.

Hypothetically, if two suburban DC parents can dope their child into possibly the greatest swimmer ever, then its a wonder anyone gets caught.

So yeah, I assume a state sponsored program, especially since Katie Ledecky has been in the USOC system now for quite awhile.

I'm sure the Ledeckys can buy a Dr. Ferrari type if they wanted.

And sure maybe there is a state sponsored doping program, just saying that's not the ONLY way.

For me she is no more suspect than anyone that hasn't been caught.

[don compton]

Whatever. these "discussions" are so tiresome.
Flash was deprived of his Tonka toys when he was young

[FlashUNC]

Flash was deprived of his Tonka toys when he was young

http://replygif.net/i/166.gif

[FlashUNC]

I'm sure the Ledeckys can buy a Dr. Ferrari type if they wanted.

And sure maybe there is a state sponsored doping program, just saying that's not the ONLY way.

For me she is no more suspect than anyone that hasn't been caught.

Totally agree, my point is that rather large jumps in performance -- a swimmer who suddenly goes from high end pack fodder to regular record breaker, a cyclist who wins one day races on slightly hilly courses suddenly putting minutes into people on Alpine climbs -- are far more suspect than someone who dominates from the word jump.

I'd be shocked if Ledecky is clean. But it ain't jingoism to say that the Hungarian looks just a leeeeeeeetle suspicious.

[gasman]

C'mon guys you know the rules.

[harlond]

Its not jingo Olympics. Its "weight training program" magically enhances her abilities beyond where she's ever been before.

Silvers and bronzes until London 2012. All at the world class level, but nothing that necessarily sets her far apart from the competition. She's your standard -- if there is such a thing -- world class swimmer. But coming out of London and then suddenly at the 2013 Worlds, she begins breaking all sorts of records.She won a world championship in 2009 at age 20 and started winning more and breaking records at age 24. Wouldn't you expect her to get better and stronger in her 20s with consistent training? Especially when she's world class to begin with? I think they're all doping, but I see no reason to single Hosszu out just because she set some records at an age when many athletes peak.

[malcolm]

For me and just me. If you are competing with the world's best athletes in a given discipline and you beat them by a margin that is just well unbelievable then I'm suspicious. Hey I'm cynical, I know it but I think I have history on my side.

In this case breaking world records by 2 sec and ledecky beating the field by 11sec makes me suspicious. Country of origin doesn't matter.

Now granted my knowledge of elite athletics of any variety could be put in a thimble but at least in cycling the way dominate thing = doping approaches 100%