Why Tubulars?

[wdlewis]

I've often wondered if the assumed rolling resistance advantage of tubulars over clinchers has been scientifically measured and, if yes, how much it is.

[catulle]

3 mm (A. Einstein. Princeton, N.J., 1955), atmo.

[saab2000]

I don't think they have a rolling resistance advantage. But they ride better. Of that I have no doubt. The side walls of a good tubular are much more supple than the sidewalls of clinchers.

[Too Tall]

(Below are data points and brief from Tour Mag, recent)
Tests done at 30 kph with total weight of 85 kg. Tour (magazine) stated that at 300 watts, switching from worst (Tufo Hi) to best (Veloflex Carbon) tubi tested, average speed improves from 41 kph to 42.5kph.

Bicycle Tyre Rolling Resistances
Tubs:
Velofex Carbon 8.5 bar 34.05 watts
7.5 bar 34.74 watts

Vittoria Evo CX 8.5 bar 37.52 watts
7.5 bar 38.22 watts

Conti Comp. 8.5 bar 41.00 watts
7.5 bar 42.39 watts

Tufo Elite Jet 8.5 bar 50.73 watts
7.5 bar 52.81 watts

Tufo Hi-Comp. 8.5 bar 53.51 watts
7.5 bar 55.59 watts

Conti Podium .

8.5 bar 41.69watts
7.5 bar 43.08 watts

Clinchers:
Michelin Axial SuperComp 23-622 - 34 watts at 32km/h, 110psi


Do a search here for past threads on tubulars. There are some really find thoughts. Good luck and let us know when you are ready to pull the trigger on some fine wheels / skins. You won't regret it.

[stevep]

complaint with that test. the michelin clincher noted has been obsolete for at least 3 years...maybe 4. the other stuff is current or at least unchanged. michelin has a new casing as well as new rubber.
not arguing with the results... just the methods..unless it is a really old test reproduced.

[dgauthier]

Tests done at 30 kph ( . . .)

Bicycle Tyre Rolling Resistances
Tubs:
Velofex Carbon 8.5 bar 34.05 watts
7.5 bar 34.74 watts

Clinchers:
Michelin Axial SuperComp 23-622 - 34 watts at 32km/h, 110psi


You sure you wrote that right Too Tall? According to what you posted here, the run-of-the-mill Michelin clincher kicks the living crap out of the $100 Veloflex tubular, yielding a whole extra 2 km/h for .74 fewer expended watts at the same pressure (7.5 bar ~= 110 psi).

If this is correct, I don't feel like such a putz for riding clinchers. Suppleness be darned.

Added later: Oh, I see the Michy is one of those itty bitty time trial front tires. Well, that sure throws a wrench into the comparison, doesn't it?

[davids]

This (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=189417&postcount=17) is why I don't feel like such a putz for riding clinchers. I'll stick with my Veloflexes, thanks.

[Mud]

It is kind of like Met and Yankee fans arguing. I switched to tubies. I was tired of a million flats on NJ's roads paved in glass. :crap:

We use 215 gram Tufo tires and have had no flats. No, I have not had to change one, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. I had entirely too much practice changing flats with clinchers on the two (wife & I) bikes. Ride what you want, be happy. :banana:

[ada@prorider.or]

MMM TOO TALL
if have a little problem with those data,since one tyre reforms better on z certain better then the other and there is also temp involved its not so easy to make a general estimate you must know more
like roughness of surface temp humidty
looks at formula 1 how important this is

[zap]

Generally speaking, clinchers have better tested rolling resistance. Go to weightweenies.com and search for the latest tests.

[palincss]

You sure you wrote that right Too Tall? According to what you posted here, the run-of-the-mill Michelin clincher kicks the living crap out of the $100 Veloflex tubular, yielding a whole extra 2 km/h for .74 fewer expended watts at the same pressure (7.5 bar ~= 110 psi).

If this is correct, I don't feel like such a putz for riding clinchers. Suppleness be darned.

Added later: Oh, I see the Michy is one of those itty bitty time trial front tires. Well, that sure throws a wrench into the comparison, doesn't it?

Why? I'd be willing to guess better than 90% of the people posting here are riding those "itty bitt" 700x23Cs - and unlike many, the Michelins are actual size, not 3 mm narrower.

[atmo]

Why? I'd be willing to guess better than 90% of the people posting here are riding those "itty bitt" 700x23Cs - and unlike many, the Michelins are actual size, not 3 mm narrower.
there's a trade-off using 23s atmo?

[Too Tall]

Thus the opinions and interpretations. I lifted that data from someone who found this in Tour magazine I believe this yr. Cees et. al. appreciate the kind treatment. Budweiser all around :cold beer: However, if any of you have recent and well qualified data bring it on. To date this maybe the better data set of all I've found. At least they show watts so that I can do the math.

Ironic and timely that OLN did a short "interest" story on team Discovery wheels/tyres of choice...all tubulars ;) Just saying.

I kinda hate the big arse lettering Conti. is using on their tubies lately. Gawdy.

[zap]

itty-bitty 23's? Never owned 23 or wider tubulars.

I installed a front 19 tubular yesterday and road them on a fast, hilly ride today.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Mind you, not so good on the cobbles this little town installed this year. But that was only for a 100 yards or so.

[Grant McLean]

Fast and light carbon rims are the biggest reason tubulars are in the pro field
these days.

The second is the good old ability to ride a flat tire a little further until the
team car gets there. Considering that having to change a flat never worries
a pro in a race... why not tubulars!

g

[Skrawny]

When I get a SAG car & a team mechanic, I'll start riding tubulars.
Call me lazy...
-s

[MartyE]

ok, you're lazy.

I don't care about rolling resistance.
For me it's all about the ride.
there is something magic about a good set of tubulars
that just isn't there on any clincher I've ever ridden.

marty

[Too Tall]

Spent of last week and the weekend preparing 4 tubular wheelsets and one training set for a teammate racing Nats. and myself. My guy says he does not trust anyone except me to glue his race wheels? Makes me feel good to hear it esp. from him but why do people feel this way?

It was nice to be surrounded by drying tyres and rims in the sun waiting for more coats of glue. Kinda reminded me of what this is all about. People helping people, passion and history.

1 Zipp 303z3 wheelset (conti competition 22s, soyo glue)
1 Nimble Fly wheelset (conti competition 22s, soyo glue)
1 Zipp 808 wheelset (conti competition 19s, panaracer glue)
1 Velocity Pro wheelset (Clement PRs, panaracer glue)


Tubulars on every wheel and a Serotta in every garage.

[bostondrunk]

When I get a SAG car & a team mechanic, I'll start riding tubulars.
Call me lazy...
-s

Typical statement from someone who has no idea.

[gone]

Spent of last week and the weekend preparing 4 tubular wheelsets and one training set for a teammate racing Nats. and myself. My guy says he does not trust anyone except me to glue his race wheels? Makes me feel good to hear it esp. from him but why do people feel this way?

It was nice to be surrounded by drying tyres and rims in the sun waiting for more coats of glue. Kinda reminded me of what this is all about. People helping people, passion and history.

1 Zipp 303z3 wheelset (conti competition 22s, soyo glue)
1 Nimble Fly wheelset (conti competition 22s, soyo glue)
1 Zipp 808 wheelset (conti competition 19s, panaracer glue)
1 Velocity Pro wheelset (Clement PRs, panaracer glue)


Tubulars on every wheel and a Serotta in every garage.
Those are some sweet wheelsets! I also find gluing up tubies to be sort of zen-like. One of the many reasons why I enjoy working on my own bikes, it's about doing relatively simple tasks really well and being gratified by the results. Gluing tubulars exemplifies that.

[wdlewis]

Thanks for the info. My conclusion is that my riding skills and level do not justify the transition to tubulars. perhaps, in a year I'll reconsider.

[Too Tall]

Nyet WDlewis. Some fat juicy tubulars at ANY speed or skill when appreciated are the bidniss :)

No pressure ok?

[Lincoln]

<snip> My guy says he does not trust anyone except me to glue his race wheels? <snip>



TT, Me either. keep your eye out for the UPS guy. :D

[Too Tall]

I'm partial to obscure lowland single malt :) Not kidding. Will work for scotch.

[dgauthier]

Why? I'd be willing to guess better than 90% of the people posting here are riding those "itty bitt" 700x23Cs - and unlike many, the Michelins are actual size, not 3 mm narrower.

The data listed the Michy as *622*x23, not 700x23. Itty bitty radius, not width. In that light, the comparison is kinda pointless, imho, atmo, slkjd. :) Or does the 622 mean something completely different that I'm not aware of?

[Grant McLean]

The data listed the Michy as *622*x23, not 700x23. Itty bitty radius, not width. In that light, the comparison is kinda pointless, imho, atmo, slkjd. :) Or does the 622 mean something completely different that I'm not aware of?


622 is the bead diameter of a clincher in millimeters.

622=700c

g

[Lincoln]

I'm partial to obscure lowland single malt :) Not kidding. Will work for scotch.
In that case, I want to come and apprentice. Decent but limited selection of scotch here in Utah.

[dgauthier]

622 is the bead diameter of a clincher in millimeters.

622=700c


Well, ya learn something new every day. I thought the data referred to the actual measurement of a "650" sized tire, as shown here:

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-tires2.htm

[Too Tall]

Grant serve him some koolaide too ok? ;)

Lincoln - DOH! Buddy I had no idea. No charge. Send them right away...I'll return them with green stamps too...Utah...no scotch...horrors.

[Skrawny]

Typical statement from someone who has no idea.

Yeh, typical.
I guess that just makes me one of the poor ignorant masses...

Probably has nothing to do with one rider weighing the work/benefit ratio and deciding *FOR HIMSELF* that the work is just not worth it.

I just have no idea. :beer:

-s

[BoulderGeek]

I ran tubulars when I was racing Intermediate and Junior.

Bear in mind that I was self-supporting in my cycling, and had to make all of my money by mowing lawns and working in restaurants (ages 13-16). I found that I couldn't afford to replace an entire tubular every time I got a flat. And the effort involved in patching a tubular was, well, you know, excessive.

If I were sponsored and there was always a set of aged and glued tubulars waiting to be swapped in at my next flat, sure, I'd love it. But, as a poor privateer, I failed to see the overall merit and price/performance benefits.

Clinchers might not "ride as smoothly." But, they are a heck of a lot easier to swap the tube out of, and not cost $40 doing it.

[Russell]

why tubulars? because i've had more flats in six months with clinchers than in the last 6 years with tubs.

[bostondrunk]

I ran tubulars when I was racing Intermediate and Junior.

Bear in mind that I was self-supporting in my cycling, and had to make all of my money by mowing lawns and working in restaurants (ages 13-16). I found that I couldn't afford to replace an entire tubular every time I got a flat. And the effort involved in patching a tubular was, well, you know, excessive.

If I were sponsored and there was always a set of aged and glued tubulars waiting to be swapped in at my next flat, sure, I'd love it. But, as a poor privateer, I failed to see the overall merit and price/performance benefits.

Clinchers might not "ride as smoothly." But, they are a heck of a lot easier to swap the tube out of, and not cost $40 doing it.


Another typical comment. Tubulars, at least tubulars made in the last 10 years, not the ones you used in the 70's, don't need to be aged. No benefit. As for pre-glued, I've never done it, no one I know has ever done it. And a good Conti sprinter is cheaper than most good clincher tires, and you will flat less often.

[BoulderGeek]

Another typical comment. Tubulars, at least tubulars made in the last 10 years, not the ones you used in the 70's, don't need to be aged. No benefit. As for pre-glued, I've never done it, no one I know has ever done it. And a good Conti sprinter is cheaper than most good clincher tires, and you will flat less often.


So, you no longer have to strip the liner, cut the casing threads, patch the tube, re-sew the casing, re-glue the line and reattach the tire to fix a flat? Wow, that is a lot of improvement in 20 years!

If someone can show me _facttual_data_ that tubbies puncture less frequently, I'll believe it.

Until then, I suspect it is all anecdotal.

As a young lad in Pennsylvania, I learned to perform a quick fingertip wipe on my tires if I went over glass or questionable flat-producing material. I still get the occasional flat, but no more and no fewer than I did on tubulars.

So, there are no longer silk or cotton cased tubulars? Wow, I din't know that, either. I guess the Discovery team soigneur/tire guru they profiled on the epicly factual "Chasing Lance" didn't get the memo when he showed the dozens of tubbies aging in the shop cellar. Silly Euros!

Perhaps "typical comments" get that way because they were based in fact, once upon a time?

YMMV. But no reason to be snooty or snotty about it.

[Grant McLean]

If someone can show me _facttual_data_ that tubbies puncture less frequently, I'll believe it.

Until then, I suspect it is all anecdotal.

Perhaps "typical comments" get that way because they were based in fact, once upon a time?

YMMV. But no reason to be snooty or snotty about it.

+1