Speaking of Doping, righting a wrong (Classica San Sebastian content)

[MattTuck]

I didn't catch Classica San Sebastian live, so this may have been discussed before, though a search didn't find anything.

Before giving the hat to this year's winner, they gave one to Juan Manuel Garate, who was second in the 2007 edition. The winner was later DQ'd due to a biological passport violation.

Anyway, Garate is now a DS for Cannondale. Just thought it was a cool thing to see the crowd and race give him the recognition that he deserved.

[Fivethumbs]

No doubt. Just look at the expressions of the people surrounding him. Such unbridled joy is rarely photographed. (j/k)

[weiwentg]

Going to take a skeptical view. Gárate had a lot of his peak racing years during the Armstrong era. He hails from a country which was known to have weak rule of law vis a vis doping. He was with Lampre 2000 to 2004, then Saunier Duval in 2005. In 2009 - 2014 he was with Rabobank, which is notorious for hosting Rasmussen, but that was at the tail end of the era, so maybe we give Rabo a pass, as well as Quick Step from 2006 to 2008. But Lampre is Italian, and that's another country that had weak rule of law with regards to doping. Saunier is Spanish.

So, when Lance Armstrong got stripped of an Olympic TT win, the medal went to Ekimov. I smell a similar situation. How much do we really want to celebrate Gárate getting awarded the title? Innocent till proven guilty, in terms of the technicalities, but there is a non-zero probability that he was involved in the sport's doping culture.

[54ny77]

maybe he opted for the chicken instead of the special beef.

[Look585]

So, when Lance Armstrong got stripped of an Olympic TT win, the medal went to Ekimov.

While I enjoy a good LA bashing as much as the next cyclist, this episode in the doping chronicles starred Tyler Hamilton.

[MattTuck]

Going to take a skeptical view. Gárate had a lot of his peak racing years during the Armstrong era. He hails from a country which was known to have weak rule of law vis a vis doping. He was with Lampre 2000 to 2004, then Saunier Duval in 2005. In 2009 - 2014 he was with Rabobank, which is notorious for hosting Rasmussen, but that was at the tail end of the era, so maybe we give Rabo a pass, as well as Quick Step from 2006 to 2008. But Lampre is Italian, and that's another country that had weak rule of law with regards to doping. Saunier is Spanish.

So, when Lance Armstrong got stripped of an Olympic TT win, the medal went to Ekimov. I smell a similar situation. How much do we really want to celebrate Gárate getting awarded the title? Innocent till proven guilty, in terms of the technicalities, but there is a non-zero probability that he was involved in the sport's doping culture.

Absolutely, no doubt. This is the reason that the TDF is missing a winner in that period. I'm not saying Garate didn't dope. And maybe he did.

My point is that the race didn't just ignore or paper over the past, they provided the stage and podium to the second place rider many years after the actual event. Something that rider was wrongfully denied at the time.

If you take the view that everyone is still doping, then it doesn't matter much, I guess. Like going back to an old version of Wrestlemania and revising the winner. If you take the view that the anti-doping controls are having a positive effect (even if it is modest), like I do, then this is an attempt at restorative justice based on the rule of law.

Is suspicion (based on a rider's nationality, team, those he associated with, etc.) is enough to deny a rider some recognition, when the winner was later DQ'd? I don't know. That seems like a slippery slope, and fraught with risks that it becomes arbitrary and possibly a popularity contest.

To me, this is acknowledging that doping happens in the sport, and the race trying to do its best to recognize a good performance when the winner was DQ'd based on evidence and due process.

Anyway, not saying we should celebrate this particular rider at this particular race. But I do give them credit for providing the stage to the rider, as opposed to having that rider read in Velonews that the winner was DQ'd, and maybe getting a letter from the race organizers.

[weiwentg]

Absolutely, no doubt. This is the reason that the TDF is missing a winner in that period. I'm not saying Garate didn't dope. And maybe he did.

My point is that the race didn't just ignore or paper over the past, they provided the stage and podium to the second place rider many years after the actual event. Something that rider was wrongfully denied at the time.

If you take the view that everyone is still doping, then it doesn't matter much, I guess. Like going back to an old version of Wrestlemania and revising the winner. If you take the view that the anti-doping controls are having a positive effect (even if it is modest), like I do, then this is an attempt at restorative justice based on the rule of law.

Is suspicion (based on a rider's nationality, team, those he associated with, etc.) is enough to deny a rider some recognition, when the winner was later DQ'd? I don't know. That seems like a slippery slope, and fraught with risks that it becomes arbitrary and possibly a popularity contest.

To me, this is acknowledging that doping happens in the sport, and the race trying to do its best to recognize a good performance when the winner was DQ'd based on evidence and due process.

Anyway, not saying we should celebrate this particular rider at this particular race. But I do give them credit for providing the stage to the rider, as opposed to having that rider read in Velonews that the winner was DQ'd, and maybe getting a letter from the race organizers.

Good points. I would definitely like to not suspect riders based on nationality.

And team-wise, I think that Garate's teams were not known to have doping schemes organized or abetted by the team like USPS, ONCE, probably Rabo in the mid 2000s, CSC, etc, which is a point in his favor (sort of).

Still, there's definitely a disquiet following my soul. We know, going down the list of placings, that we will find a lot of dopers. Some were, I guess, more culpable than others - Armstrong being at the top of that list. Some got dragged in by a bad situation with poor governing institutions, Zabriskie being (assuming he was being honest in his USADA testimony, which seems likely but can't be guaranteed) the exemplar of a guy who got dragged in.

It was not a good time for professional cycling. That said, we also don't know if racing can be said to be clean now (i.e. few people dope and they don't/can't dope enough to get an enormous boost). Or how dirty other sports are. Etc. I've sort of given up on rooting for professional athletes, I guess.

TL DR: try not to suspect anyone based solely on nationality, otherwise declare nihilism.