On This Morning's Ride.

[ANAO]

I would like to write a little about my encounters On This Morning's Ride.

On This Morning's Ride, I was pedaling along, much akin to the way I normally do, when I saw a gentleman slightly up the road with a kit that looked very similar to one of the two in this picture:

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11011086_884922104904721_938762130405111187_n.jpg? oh=4aa2dc413c92f0a03927b4efbff8c1e9&oe=58373BD4

I recognized the kit from some local races, and thought it might be someone I knew. As the mercury was already creeping into the low 80's, I was in no big hurry and I closed in on him slowly, but surely - as if the peloton were in tow and I steadily reeled in the break.

I came upon him and, naturally, looked at his bike first as I didn't recognize his riding style and couldn't see his face from behind. An unpainted Edge fork with what looked to be one of those BH aero frames (BH supplied frames to a local team here, which is no longer around). As I knew guys from the local ex-BH-sponsored team, my interest was no piqued. I put down a few heavy pedal strokes, narrowly avoiding pedestrians and chess-pawn-divider-thingies as the Union Jack, followed by the word "ENGLISH" came into view on his downtube.

I knew the rear brake routing through the long part of the wishbone was not a BH feature!

I pulled alongside my soon-to-be new friend.
"How much did Rob charge you for that routing?!"

He looks over at me, and then removes his left earbud.
"I'm sorry, what was that?"

I was genuinely curious about what Rob would charge for a neat feature like that, but I was also trying to strike up conversation. So I rephrased my question: I said how much does a bike like that run?

He slowly blinked, and I saw a wry smirk creep across his face.
"I mean...if you have to ask, this isn't the kind of bike for you."

I was...surprised to say the least. Floored. I wasn't even pedaling. I coasted for a few seconds until I regained my composure and rode back up beside him. I thought this kind of stuff only happened in Seinfeld. Then, as if he sensed I didn't take it the way he had anticipated (is there such a way?), he followed up with: "I don't mean to be Dick, but it's true."

I don't know who Dick is, but I wasn't sticking around to find out.
I rode off, literally laughing out loud.

[dieonthishill]

It's not very polite to ask someone how much something costs when it is something expensive like that. Probably why you got that answer...

[Cicli]

Sounds like a dick.

[FlashUNC]

A rude question met with a rude response.

[David Tollefson]

Yeah, that's not the type of conversation opener that tends to go anywhere good. That's usually a good 4th or 5th question, after a few compliments and other small-talk type stuff.

I love Rob's work. I also have no idea what his frames run. As a one-off custom builder, I'm sure can vary widely.

[ANAO]

Yeah, that's not the type of conversation opener that tends to go anywhere good. That's usually a good 4th or 5th question, after a few compliments and other small-talk type stuff.

I love Rob's work. I also have no idea what his frames run. As a one-off custom builder, I'm sure can vary widely.

You're probably right. Maybe my first less-aggressive question would have gone over better. Too late now. I think that was the first one I've ever seen on the road. The aero tubing was very, very sleek.

[fuzzalow]

Never talk money with a stranger, much less talk money with a friend. Never. Money, and all that it entails, is the crassest of all topics, lead-ins and rebuttals and is not smooth and is just not done.

In fairness, it can depend on the circumstance. For example, I get asked how much my Brompton costs by pedestrians when riding in town all the time. They are amused and friendly in their curiosity about what they have said to me is "a cool bike". I always lie and tell them 1/2 of what it really costs. Some are still surprised by the amount but the interaction is friendly.

Road bike riders are among the most insecure & hostile jerks in any sporting activity. Ask a question as in the OP and that is all the opening for a serious cyclist to wanna crap all over somebody in reply. Sure, the question was dumb but why brush it off when a cyclist can be a jerk instead?

[bcroslin]

Obtuse much? Is he someone we should know? You built up all that suspense and all you wanted to know was how much it cost for the cable routing? Were you interested in the jersey? I'm thoroughly confused.

Dude, you asked a weird question and got exactly the answer you deserved. And I say that as gently as possible. Maybe next time start the conversation with "hi, I'm so-and-so, that's a great bike, are you from around here?"

[false_Aest]

Hrm.

I would've asked why he was dressed in cold weather gear and covered in snow.

I mean, if a kit can make it snow . . . . faaaahhhk!

[malcolm]

Not a great conversation starter, but a complete arse of a response.

I've been asked that a couple times with bikes, motorcycles and cars. I always give the standard "too much"

[weisan]

"You are creating too much drama! It's just a freakin' bike ride!"

That's what I had been telling my buddy during our regular group rides. He used to work as a soigneur for a couple of pro teams in Europe several years ago before he came back to the US and settled down with a "real" job. Almost every single time during our rides, I have to listen to his usual "pro" banter; someone is not doing it right, his or her saddle is too low, he's dumb in the way he rides, doesn't know how to draft etc etc...finally I just told him, you know what, just shut your mouth, don't say anything, nobody is gonna die here just because of that. This is just a freakin' bloody bike ride, everyone is trying to enjoy themselves and have some fun. I don't care if he weighs 450 Ibs or is riding a bike that doesn't fit right...sooner or later, as time passed, maybe he will lose some weight...maybe he will figure it out how to set up his bike with the proper reach...whatever. The time will come, at the right moment, with the right "counselor" who knows how to be tactful or speaks truth into the situation or maybe that person will join a great online community like ours filled with knowledgeable folks who can point him in the right direction.

The bottomline is...just shut your gap, and ride your bike!

Rant over.

[ANAO]

"You are creating too much drama! It's just a freakin' bike ride!"

That's what I had been telling my buddy during our regular group rides. He used to work as a soigneur for a couple of pro teams in Europe several years ago before he came back to the US and settled down with a "real" job. Almost every single time during our rides, I have to listen to his usual "pro" banter; someone is not doing it right, his or her saddle is too low, he's dumb in the way he rides, doesn't know how to draft etc etc...finally I just told him, you know what, just shut your mouth, don't say anything, nobody is gonna die here just because of that. This is just a freakin' bloody bike ride, everyone is trying to enjoy themselves and have some fun. I don't care if he weighs 450 Ibs or is riding a bike that doesn't fit right...sooner or later, as time passed, maybe he will lose some weight...maybe he will figure it out how to set up his bike with the proper reach...whatever. The time will come, at the right moment, with the right "counselor" who knows how to be tactful or speaks truth into the situation or maybe that person will join a great online community like ours filled with knowledgeable folks who can point him in the right direction.

The bottomline is...just shut your gap, and ride your bike!

Rant over.

Even after consulting Rob's site (which I did), I still don't know how much a cool feature like that would be.

I don't understand why people are offended by "money talk". You are not the value of the bike you ride (or your house, or your car, etc. etc.). It is what it is.

I tell people what mine costs, and non-cyclists ALWAYS ask me. Surprisingly, they almost always over-estimate. I've gotten as high as a 10k guess for my caad10 after somebody picked it up and remarked at its lightness.

But yeah, I probably should have introduced myself, I guess. Ben's right. Don't just come out swinging.
If any of you guys ever run into me, feel free to pat me on the back and yell obscenities as you race away. I'm game for whatever kind of conversation.

[ANAO]

Obtuse much? Is he someone we should know? You built up all that suspense and all you wanted to know was how much it cost for the cable routing? Were you interested in the jersey? I'm thoroughly confused.

Dude, you asked a weird question and got exactly the answer you deserved. And I say that as gently as possible. Maybe next time start the conversation with "hi, I'm so-and-so, that's a great bike, are you from around here?"

I included the picture because people like pictures with their posts (at least I do), and that was the only one I could find on the team's facebook page. They're not very active on their social media channels. No, it wasn't taken this morning!

[weisan]

ANAO pal, I am not directing my comments squarely at you and I didn't think you did anything wrong per se...but I would just say, "Let it go..."

[paredown]

On my morning ride, some dude passed me going up hill (not surprising since I just got over a bout of pneumonia and I am fat and out of shape), and said nothing at all. Empty country road and all...

I find that weirder...

[ANAO]

ANAO pal, I am not directing my comments squarely at you and I didn't think you did anything wrong per se...but I would just say, "Let it go..."

And I wasn't responding to you! You were last person to comment, didn't mean to hit the "quote" button.

But yes, you're right. He didn't really upset me, just as I probably didn't upset him. It was just an odd exchange. I still don't know the price. Not that I would splurge for the internal wishbone routing.... :bike:

[Seramount]

for a first encounter with a total stranger, you should prolly start off with a more generic topic and work up to money-related issues.

would suggest something like, 'got any pics of your wife nude?'

[David Tollefson]

Even after consulting Rob's site (which I did), I still don't know how much a cool feature like that would be.

Try sending him an email. He's good at responding, though sometimes they tend to be brief and to-the-point.

[carpediemracing]

I think the thing here was the jump past some of the standard openings, if you will. You don't go up to a girl at a bar and say "Will you sleep with me?" (or other terms). You say hi and such.

So...

"Hey, is that an English? I love his frames."
"I never saw the cable inside the chainstay before."

Let the other person fill things in.

I've had random people ask about my bike. I give vague answers without being rude. "It costs about $3000" etc. If the other person is a rider on a decent bike I'm a bit more open because they probably know some stuff already.

[54ny77]

You could say, "Hi, I have a Rob English frame with hidden cabling. Do you like chamois cream by chance?"

I think the thing here was the jump past some of the standard openings, if you will. You don't go up to a girl at a bar and say "Will you sleep with me?" (or other terms). You say hi and such.

[beeatnik]

Rob English has a price list on his website.

[Cicli]

Rob English has a price list on his website.

That would have a nice reply.

[kevinvc]

Never talk money with a stranger, much less talk money with a friend. Never. Money, and all that it entails, is the crassest of all topics, lead-ins and rebuttals and is not smooth and is just not done.

This is certainly true in the US, but is not a universal. My wife lived in Poland shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. At that time it was common and perfectly acceptable to ask a stranger what we would consider personal financial information, e.g. how much money they made, what they paid for rent, the price of their belongings, etc.

However, information about their personal lives was completely off limits. You would never ask a stranger (or even a casual friend) if they were married, had kids or anything of that nature.

The culture has changed a great deal since then and these boundaries aren't as stark as they were then, but some of the cultural remnants remain. In general, it is still acceptable to ask financial questions that we in the US would consider rude and easy to offend someone with what we consider a fairly innocuous question.

To bring this back to the original topic, the OP's question would have been fine if he was riding in Gdansk, but was out of line for Jersey. :p

[Timdog]

for a first encounter with a total stranger, you should prolly start off with a more generic topic and work up to money-related issues.

would suggest something like, 'got any pics of your wife nude?'

And if he says "no", you ask if he wants some, right!:) You better know you're faster than him.

[sandyrs]

Not the classiest way to start a conversation, granted, but there are about a million ways to answer that question without being a jerk, and he didn't choose one.

[ANAO]

Rob English has a price list on his website.

Yes. I think the wishbone thing is above-and-beyond though? Maybe not. It certainly did look cool. I should have led with the compliment, as I learned quickly.

[ANAO]

This is certainly true in the US, but is not a universal. My wife lived in Poland shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. At that time it was common and perfectly acceptable to ask a stranger what we would consider personal financial information, e.g. how much money they made, what they paid for rent, the price of their belongings, etc.

However, information about their personal lives was completely off limits. You would never ask a stranger (or even a casual friend) if they were married, had kids or anything of that nature.

The culture has changed a great deal since then and these boundaries aren't as stark as they were then, but some of the cultural remnants remain. In general, it is still acceptable to ask financial questions that we in the US would consider rude and easy to offend someone with what we consider a fairly innocuous question.

To bring this back to the original topic, the OP's question would have been fine if he was riding in Gdansk, but was out of line for Jersey. :p

This was on the Island of Manhattan!

I still don't get why people take offense or, what's the word I'm looking for? I can't think of it. Something with a "sh". The opposite of offense. Something like haughtiness. I was just looking for some numbers to spin around in my head on the last 20 minutes of the ride. Is it worth it? Is it ever worth it? What price WOULD be worth it? Should I even entertain such a cool feature on my next bike? All brought to a halt.

[beeatnik]

Yes. I think the wishbone thing is above-and-beyond though? Maybe not. It certainly did look cool. I should have led with the compliment, as I learned quickly.

Exactly.

In 2011 or 2012, I wanted an English, came close to putting down a deposit. Just seemed like a great deal for that level of fabrication. Plus, I also wanted a Fake-Carbon-Steel-Bike. Aero, light, all that. Anyway, around here, other than Stinner, you'll never see a trick steel bika. The Lambo drivers are on Rca's. But I would imagine that if I ever rode next to a cat on an English, he would be happy to talk about the price of the most minute detail since I'd be the first guy to ever ask. I mean the dude would have to know that anyone who recognizes an English has a ballpark on price and is possibly a future customer.

"How much is that ti Moots stem?"
"$425"

Why be evasive when a clued in cat can just google?

[dieonthishill]

I don't understand why people are offended by "money talk". You are not the value of the bike you ride (or your house, or your car, etc. etc.). It is what it is.

Because in today's world, everyone judges. And, if you are not the value of the bike you ride, then there is no point in asking in the first place.

[ANAO]

Because in today's world, everyone judges. And, if you are not the value of the bike you ride, then there is no point in asking in the first place.

Right. Unless that last bit was serious, in which case, see #27 above.

:fight:

[FlashUNC]

Somewhere, a cyclist in a mirror universe posts to his own forum:

So I'm heading home on my morning ride as the temps creep up into the 80s and the soft pedaling after some intervals felt great. This English really is the cats pajamas and I'm glad I chose it over the other custom options out there.

Anyways, I'm pedaling along and suddenly this guy behind me comes riding up, nearly knocking a couple pedestrians over in the process, sidles in next to me, gives me the once over and says something I can't make out.
I had my headphones in, listening to Schubert's sonatas as I like to when I'm cooling down. So I look over, my moment of cool-down relaxation broken, and pull a headphone out of my ear. I tried to be polite but I was taken aback a bit.

"I'm sorry..what's that?"

"HOW MUCH DOES THAT BIKE RUN?" he blurts at me.

I tried to be polite and make a joke of it, but talking money with strangers is crass. The guy didn't even introduce himself, or ask my name.

"I mean...if you have to ask, this isn't the kind of bike for you."

He sort of drifted off, oddly hurt by my response, so he comes back up beside me and I try to be self-deprecating and say: "I don't mean to be Dick, but it's true."

Then he starts laughing and rides off. I don't understand folks sometimes.

[ANAO]

Somewhere, a cyclist in a mirror universe posts to his own forum:

So I'm heading home on my morning ride as the temps creep up into the 80s and the soft pedaling after some intervals felt great. This English really is the cats pajamas and I'm glad I chose it over the other custom options out there.

Anyways, I'm pedaling along and suddenly this guy behind me comes riding up, nearly knocking a couple pedestrians over in the process, sidles in next to me, gives me the once over and says something I can't make out.
I had my headphones in, listening to Schubert's sonatas as I like to when I'm cooling down. So I look over, my moment of cool-down relaxation broken, and pull a headphone out of my ear. I tried to be polite but I was taken aback a bit.

"I'm sorry..what's that?"

"HOW MUCH DOES THAT BIKE RUN?" he blurts at me.

I tried to be polite and make a joke of it, but talking money with strangers is crass. The guy didn't even introduce himself, or ask my name.

"I mean...if you have to ask, this isn't the kind of bike for you."

He sort of drifted off, oddly hurt by my response, so he comes back up beside me and I try to be self-deprecating and say: "I don't mean to be Dick, but it's true."

Then he starts laughing and rides off. I don't understand folks sometimes.

Hahahahahhahahaha :banana::banana:

[CampyorBust]

This was on the Island of Manhattan!

Ah here we see the flaw in your argument, this is the exception to the rule, the guy was in the right, because...

"Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right" - NYC Mayor Lenny Clotch

https://youtu.be/yUC0YTaaQNM

[bcroslin]

On my morning ride, some dude passed me going up hill (not surprising since I just got over a bout of pneumonia and I am fat and out of shape), and said nothing at all. Empty country road and all...

I find that weirder...

This. I always wave and think it's weird when people don't wave back but such is life.

[makoti]

I think the thing here was the jump past some of the standard openings, if you will. You don't go up to a girl at a bar and say "Will you sleep with me?"

Wait... that's not a good line? Might explain a few things...

[fuzzalow]

I don't understand why people are offended by "money talk". You are not the value of the bike you ride (or your house, or your car, etc. etc.). It is what it is.

I am not offended by money talk - I know not to broach the subject. Because unless you know you are talking to a trusted peer, almost any kind of answer you will get anyway will be full of sh_t. All of life, from Facebook entries, forum posts (yes, even here), casual conversations is all self inflated puffery intended to proclaim to everyone else how splendiferous and great that person has it. All BS. 'Cos there's nobody out there who is 32 years old, broke and lives alone in the basement of his mother's house.

People that both know how to, and have, achieved any degree of stature or success in life can usually recognize it in others, if not right away than in due course of a conversation or two. Only an idiot or a wannabe need resort to talking in terms of dollar amount. There's lots more than mere money needed to impute a value although that also anything ultimately can be distilled to a number valuation - and the nuance and seeming contradiction of that dichotomy is not understood by the hoi polloi.

Such is a consumer, free market society.

This is certainly true in the US, but is not a universal. My wife lived in Poland shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. At that time it was common and perfectly acceptable to ask a stranger what we would consider personal financial information, e.g. how much money they made, what they paid for rent, the price of their belongings, etc.

However, information about their personal lives was completely off limits. You would never ask a stranger (or even a casual friend) if they were married, had kids or anything of that nature.

The culture has changed a great deal since then and these boundaries aren't as stark as they were then, but some of the cultural remnants remain. In general, it is still acceptable to ask financial questions that we in the US would consider rude and easy to offend someone with what we consider a fairly innocuous question.

To bring this back to the original topic, the OP's question would have been fine if he was riding in Gdansk, but was out of line for Jersey. :p

Interesting, thanks for that backdrop. In essence, a void of experience in the first emergence to the free market economy - no clue as to valuation so a aggressive backfill on pricing data to help ascertain a spot or future market price on goods.

"Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right" - NYC Mayor Lenny Clotch

Nah, NYers are among the nicest people in any city. The movies ain't real life.

[bobswire]

for a first encounter with a total stranger, you should prolly start off with a more generic topic and work up to money-related issues.

would suggest something like, 'got any pics of your wife nude?'

My response would be, No but I have some of yours. :cool:

[beeatnik]

People that both know how to, and have, achieved any degree of stature or success in life can usually recognize it in others, if not right away than in due course of a conversation or two.

On any fast ride or climb, only the guys in front know who the guys in front are.

And kudos on the usage of splendiferous.

[mcteague]

More than once I have had people ask me how much my dog cost and where I got them. And this was the first thing said. People are strange.

Tim

[soulspinner]

not a great conversation starter, but a complete arse of a response.

I've been asked that a couple times with bikes, motorcycles and cars. I always give the standard "too much"

+1

[fuzzalow]

On any fast ride or climb, only the guys in front know who the guys in front are.

And kudos to you for that apt imagery. In many ways, you are the company you keep. Water seeks its own level.

And yet even still, outside of people you know & trust, who knows? Will those guys at the front still be the same guys at the front at the end of the race? Or next race? Or next month? Or next year? Because this gets to the overriding motivations, ambitions and illusions that permeate both your town and mine - appearance without legitimacy, behaviour without substance. Everybody in LA or NY has a line of schtick and a story. How to know who and what's for real? Well, one way is that time will tell.

The other way, driven by a judgemental imperative in making a more immediate determination, there is only one way to cut through the crap - Money. Real, liquid, verifiable, quantifiable. There is virtually no other way in our capitalist, free market society. With all the narrow, limited focus that making an assessment based on the criterion of money entails. But it is what it is.

OK, lotsa words, what the heck am I talkin' about? It's this: Money inextricably ties us in to what and who we are in ways that we cannot avoid. For better or for worse.

Nobody wants to sell themselves short, nobody wants to be less than the guy next to him. So never talk about money with somebody unless you want to hear a lie. Or said another way that in knowing this, why go there to talk or ask about money to begin with?

Yeah, lotsa words. Hey, I'm on vacation, I've got the time. :)

[Peter P.]

"You are creating too much drama! It's just a freakin' bike ride!"

That's what I had been telling my buddy during our regular group rides...

I used to do the same thing. I had a girlfriend once. We'd be driving somewhere and I'd see a cyclist and instantly turn into a critic. She bluntly pointed that out to me, and I haven't done it since. Thanks, Suzanne.

I also don't see any harm in the OP asking the question of how much the frame cost. When asking that question, you have to consider the recipient.

If it's obvious you both share the same interest or if you're familiar with each other in some way i.e., you're both riding bikes at the time, then I think it's not an issue. The questionee can politely decline. However, it's definitely rude to ask that question of a stranger as they may perceived a threat such as robbery or burglary.

I think the rider on the English was more snob than cyclist.

P.S. Perhaps a better way of the OP asking the original question should have been, "What's Rob English charging for a frame like that these days (http://www.englishcycles.com/pricelist/)?" Phrasing the question this way doesn't force the owner to reveal his wealth but asks him to pass on information he might have regarding what Rob sells. That information has no basis in secrecy because the potential buyer needs to know it before they place a deposit.

[Louis]

Nah, NYers are among the nicest people in any city. The movies ain't real life.

I've seen Midnight Cowboy and Taxi Driver, so I know this statement is false.

[Peter P.]

You are not the value of the bike you ride (or your house, or your car, etc. etc.).

You said it.

[FlashUNC]

Internal rear brake cable routing: $100


To answer your original question.

http://www.englishcycles.com/pricelist/

[ANAO]

Internal rear brake cable routing: $100


To answer your original question.

http://www.englishcycles.com/pricelist/

I saw that. I don't know if that comes out on the underside of the top tube (as I would assume) or travel further and come out by the wishbone (as I witnessed, and guessed there would be a surcharge).

[Jgrooms]

Cyling has the potential to bring out the best, however, why does it most often bring out the worst?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fuzzalow]

I saw that. I don't know if that comes out on the underside of the top tube (as I would assume) or travel further and come out by the wishbone (as I witnessed, and guessed there would be a surcharge).

Not gonna say anything about talkin' about money - I've beat that to death already ;) Because that really wasn't what I was trying to get at in talking with you which is this: Protect yourself - don't put yourself into awkward social situations when speaking to jerks like Earbud-English-Roadie-Prick. What you asked him didn't upset him, it made his day. Because you opened the door so he could smartass a response to you to crap all over you. You approached him like an innocent and he smacked you down as an elitist.

I am on your side, not his. Don't do this to yourself. Sure, he coulda exhibited self restraint and demurred a response, but that level of maturity I rarely see in roadies. The thing cyclists do best is throw our own fellow cyclists under a bus.

See you at the next stop.

I've seen Midnight Cowboy and Taxi Driver, so I know this statement is false.

HaHa, those are from a long time ago. Where I live is the furthest thing from that kinda gritty disrepair and indifference portrayed in those movies. You have better taste in NYC-centric films - I usually max out at John Carpenter's "Escape from New York" kind of cinematic fare.

[Tony]

[QUOTE=fuzzalow;2016131]Not gonna say anything about talkin' about money - I've beat that to death already ;) Because that really wasn't what I was trying to get at in talking with you which is this: Protect yourself - don't put yourself into awkward social situations when speaking to jerks like Earbud-English-Roadie-Prick."

Sometimes hard to do, riding, enjoying your ride/life guard is down.

"What you asked him didn't upset him, it made his day. Because you opened the door so he could smartass a response to you to crap all over you. You approached him like an innocent and he smacked you down as an elitist."

Agree.

[redir]

I think that's a pretty common joke, kind of like that's what she said... If ya have to ask.. The guy was probably joking.

[Tony]

I think that's a pretty common joke, kind of like that's what she said... If ya have to ask.. The guy was probably joking.

The dude "followed up with: "I don't mean to be Dick, but it's true." He's a member in the upper echelons of society.

[Louis]

I usually max out at John Carpenter's "Escape from New York" kind of cinematic fare.

At least part of which was filmed right here in St Louis...

[John H.]

My knee jerk response was that you were the dick in this story-
But as I read on my view softened.
I think that you could have had a better and more friendly greeting and delivery of your questions-
something along the lines of "Hi, I like bikes and I like your bike- do you think that I could ask you some questions about your bike?"
Then he could answer however he wanted- and if he is friendly and feels like being engaged you might get your answers.

[redir]

The dude "followed up with: "I don't mean to be Dick, but it's true." He's a member in the upper echelons of society.

Oh I read it wrong,. I thought the OP said that back. Meh oh well life goes on.