Sagan as GC contender; spoiler alert

[Ciavete]

Greetings fellow Paceliners. I'm seeing Sagan consistently near the front of the pack and/or winning stages, like he did today (what a finish!) Where did he lose 2 hours? Must have missed those stages. Wondering why he's not a GC contender.

Grazie mille!

[guido]

One word: Mountains.

[MattTuck]

Greetings fellow Paceliners. I'm seeing Sagan consistently near the front of the pack and/or winning stages, like he did today (what a finish!) Where did he lose 2 hours? Must have missed those stages. Wondering why he's not a GC contender.

Grazie mille!

There are a bunch of different types of riders in professional cycling. Things like their capabilities (cardiovascular output, strength, and how long they can hold a given power output) combined with their morphology (height, size, weight, etc.) contribute to what they are good at on the bike.

Sagan is not suited (atleast at his current weight) to the long climbs that are required to win the tour. There is a related, but separate, question of whether he could lose some pounds and become a GC contender.

But purely to answer your question, while he has massive power for the punchy climbs of Flanders and Sienna, he does not have the power to weight ratio needed to be a GC contender.

[spookyload]

He did an amazing job in California last year. That was a once in a lifetime ride though, and it worked. As mentioned, his power to weight ratio for the long climbs just isn't there. He lost two hours on the days he wasn't contending and rode in with the sprinters on the autobus. Cab is only four stages from achieving the most wins in Tour history, and has likely never finished in the top 50. Wins on stages don't equate to success.

[FlashUNC]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/930/865/5bf.jpg

[Mark McM]

And as far as the question, "Where did he lose those 2 hours, " he lost them on stages where he purposely took it easy because he knew he had no chance to win. In other words he's sandbagging (which is a valid tactic in stage races).

[pjm]

:)

[spartanKid]

Greetings fellow Paceliners. I'm seeing Sagan consistently near the front of the pack and/or winning stages, like he did today (what a finish!) Where did he lose 2 hours? Must have missed those stages. Wondering why he's not a GC contender.

Grazie mille!

He weighs 15-30 lbs more than the best climbers in the peloton. He doesn't stand a chance when the gradients go up for many, many km. He can power over short climbs like in Flanders and the other classics, but is at a severe disadvantage during sustains climbs.

[Fatty]

He is a mountain biker. Needs the upper body build for Rio olympics off road course. Looks good in green I may add.


http://static.dnaindia.com/sites/default/files/styles/half/public/2016/07/19/483236-peter-sagan-afp.jpg?itok=unZOys2l

[tiretrax]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/930/865/5bf.jpg

Owwww

[oldpotatoe]

Greetings fellow Paceliners. I'm seeing Sagan consistently near the front of the pack and/or winning stages, like he did today (what a finish!) Where did he lose 2 hours? Must have missed those stages. Wondering why he's not a GC contender.

Grazie mille!

Like most 'sprinters', when the road goes up, they go OTB. It's keen that he is a olympian but he's going to be OTB there too.

[Bruce K]

OP - He'll be OTB in the MTB race?:eek:

Sagan the elder gave up his road race slot to his younger brother. He is going to play in the dirt at Rio.

BK

[Ciavete]

Thanks for the instructive responses. Still, surprised to see him at 90th in the overall classification. Lots of sandbagging!

Cheers.

[FlashUNC]

Sandbagging....yeah...that's the ticket. Not losing, just sandbagging all over the place.

http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/video/video.snl.com/SNL_0508_06_Update_2_Tommy_Flanagan.png

[saab2000]

Thanks for the instructive responses. Still, surprised to see him at 90th in the overall classification. Lots of sandbagging!

Cheers.

There's no point in him trying hard to stay with the leaders on days he has no chance. Why burn matches there? Today he won by a tire width. Maybe he had that tire width by not pushing so hard on days he has no chance.

BTW, how 'bout that Sagan? Where are the haters now? :beer:

[pjm]

There's no point in him trying hard to stay with the leaders on days he has no chance. Why burn matches there? Today he won by a tire width. Maybe he had that tire width by not pushing so hard on days he has no chance.

BTW, how 'bout that Sagan? Where are the haters now? :beer:

In the post right above yours.;)

[sandyrs]

Thanks for the instructive responses. Still, surprised to see him at 90th in the overall classification. Lots of sandbagging!

Cheers.

Most people in grand tours have no intention of competing for the general classification. Sagan is in that boat. So are Cavendish, Kittel, Greipel, Kristoff, Degenkolb, all of every team's domestiques like Wout Poels, and about every single rider in the Tour except the top 10-12.

[crankles]

Most people in grand tours have no intention of competing for the general classification. Sagan is in that boat. So are Cavendish, Kittel, Greipel, Kristoff, Degenkolb, all of every team's domestiques like Wout Poels, and about every single rider in the Tour except the top 10-12.

this...it's why there's more than one jersey.

[FlashUNC]

BTW, how 'bout that Sagan? Where are the haters now? :beer:

So when's he going to win more stages than the guy using the Tour as an extended training block before riding the boards at Rio?

[crankles]

So when's he going to win more stages than the guy using the Tour as an extended training block before riding the boards at Rio?

The day is still young..

man, your hatred of the guy just cracks me up.

[adub]

The way the Grand tours are you need a BMI of an anorexic to be a GC contender.

[guido]

The way the Grand tours are you need a BMI of an anorexic to be a GC contender.

And a VO2Max > 85

[bikingshearer]

So when's he going to win more stages than the guy using the Tour as an extended training block before riding the boards at Rio?

Saying he is a sprinter like Cavendish et al, oversimplifies it, as does saying he can't climb. He is not the best road sprinter out there, but he very good at it. That's why he is consistently in the money for the sprints, picking up loads of green jersey points.

But he is also an exceptionally strong rider. Like Cancellara or Boonen strong. That's why he is good in the classics. It's also why he can get himself in position for the intermediate sprints on hilly days and pick up green jersey points that the pure sprinters have no chance of getting.

As a poster said above, he can't climb big mountains. He might be able to do one in a stage - maybe - but certainly not two or more. (Sean Kelly was like that, too.) But if he gets over that one and there are intermediate sprint points to be had - well, Sagan can get those but Cavendish or Kittel or Greipel or whoever never will.

Put it together, and Sagan is a good shot to win stages that are hilly and hard but not too mountainous, stages that the sprinters can't contest. He is not likely to win flat, pure sprinter stages, although he will pick up points in them.
And that will add up to a green jersey even in the face of Cav having a great sprinter's Tour.

[Ciavete]

Great analysis! Bet Bobke would approve.

Saying he is a sprinter like Cavendish et al, oversimplifies it, as does saying he can't climb. He is not the best road sprinter out there, but he very good at it. That's why he is consistently in the money for the sprints, picking up loads of green jersey points.

But he is also an exceptionally strong rider. Like Cancellara or Boonen strong. That's why he is good in the classics. It's also why he can get himself in position for the intermediate sprints on hilly days and pick up green jersey points that the pure sprinters have no chance of getting.

As a poster said above, he can't climb big mountains. He might be able to do one in a stage - maybe - but certainly not two or more. (Sean Kelly was like that, too.) But if he gets over that one and there are intermediate sprint points to be had - well, Sagan can get those but Cavendish or Kittel or Greipel or whoever never will.

Put it together, and Sagan is a good shot to win stages that are hilly and hard but not too mountainous, stages that the sprinters can't contest. He is not likely to win flat, pure sprinter stages, although he will pick up points in them.
And that will add up to a green jersey even in the face of Cav having a great sprinter's Tour.

[FlashUNC]

Call me old fashioned, the sprinters jersey should be won by a sprinter. Not by the "he's not really a climber and he's not the best sprinter ever, so he benefits from the rule changes the ASO has made to emphasize intermediate sprints and de-emphasize wins in sprint stages."

This is like Jalabert winning the polka dot jersey by gobbling up intermediate points and not, yanno, hanging around in the actual mountains.

Just another data point on the farce that is the Tour these days.

[crankles]

you're only 'old fashioned' enough to suit your argument. The green jersey use to be awarded by lowest cumulative rank. In fact, as I look over the list of green jersey winner since 1953 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_classification_in_the_Tour_de_France), I think only a small fraction would be thought of as pure sprinters today.

I'm curious, at what point in time, in your estimation, was the tour not a farce? the armstrong era? the Festina era? the pot belge era?

personally, I would pay good money to watch a pre 1937 era tour. Almost 4500K on a single speed.




Call me old fashioned, the sprinters jersey should be won by a sprinter. Not by the "he's not really a climber and he's not the best sprinter ever, so he benefits from the rule changes the ASO has made to emphasize intermediate sprints and de-emphasize wins in sprint stages."

This is like Jalabert winning the polka dot jersey by gobbling up intermediate points and not, yanno, hanging around in the actual mountains.

Just another data point on the farce that is the Tour these days.

[FlashUNC]

you're only 'old fashioned' enough to suit your argument. The green jersey use to be awarded by lowest cumulative rank. In fact, as I look over the list of green jersey winner since 1953 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_classification_in_the_Tour_de_France), I think only a small fraction would be thought of as pure sprinters today.

I'm curious, at what point in time, in your estimation, was the tour not a farce? the armstrong era? the Festina era? the pot belge era?

personally, I would pay good money to watch a pre 1937 era tour. Almost 4500K on a single speed.

I get the Tour is entertainment, but its had a rather particular history of tailoring its courses and jersey competitions to specific individuals. The Giro does the same, though it at least has a more wacky spirit to it.

The green jersey as a concept is really a more modern invention of the Tour, but really since about 1970 on you can consider it settling into what we think of when we think of the sprinters jersey. Of course, in a lot of those eras you're talking pre-uber specialization that didn't really come along till the 1980s and 1990s. But man, Andre Darrigade won the darn thing.

But peak sprinter? Man, Abdu was pretty outstanding.

[adub]

And a VO2Max > 85

And a hematocrit level of at least 60%

[saab2000]

I get the Tour is entertainment, but its had a rather particular history of tailoring its courses and jersey competitions to specific individuals. The Giro does the same, though it at least has a more wacky spirit to it.

The green jersey as a concept is really a more modern invention of the Tour, but really since about 1970 on you can consider it settling into what we think of when we think of the sprinters jersey. Of course, in a lot of those eras you're talking pre-uber specialization that didn't really come along till the 1980s and 1990s. But man, Andre Darrigade won the darn thing.

But peak sprinter? Man, Abdu was pretty outstanding.

Is there anything Sagan could do to win you over? BTW, the work stand I own was made by a Swiss cyclist named Fritz Schär. He won the Green Jersey in 1953 and was sixth overall. He finished 3rd overall in the 1954 TdF.

Sagan is becoming a great cyclist. He grows his palmares every day it seems.

https://cyclehistory.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/fritz-schaer-1953.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Is there anything Sagan could do to win you over? BTW, the work stand I own was made by a Swiss cyclist named Fritz Schär. He won the Green Jersey in 1953 and was sixth overall. He finished 3rd overall in the 1954 TdF.

Sagan is becoming a great cyclist. He grows his palmares every day it seems.

https://cyclehistory.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/fritz-schaer-1953.jpg

Do the Boonen Treble and its worth a conversation.

So...Flanders/Roubaix/Worlds in the same year?

[fiamme red]

He is a mountain biker. Needs the upper body build for Rio olympics off road course. Looks good in green I may add.Michael Rasmussen was once a mountain biker too. His lack of upper body mass didn't hurt him.

[MattTuck]

Most people in grand tours have no intention of competing for the general classification. Sagan is in that boat. So are Cavendish, Kittel, Greipel, Kristoff, Degenkolb, all of every team's domestiques like Wout Poels, and about every single rider in the Tour except the top 10-12.

I think probably 20-25 or so come in with a shot at the GC top 10. Or atleast come in with intentions of getting a result in the GC. After someone starts sliding outside of the top 10, or the time gaps get impossible, they abandon their GC ambitions and either focus on a stage win, or if they have a shot at the top 10, they may really focus on that.

By the time they hit Paris, anything outside of 10th place is probably not going to get any media coverage, and thus won't sell many bikes, and thus not really satisfy sponsors, unless the rider is a new/young rider. Stage wins can sell bikes.

[Seramount]

when PS came on the pro scene, I was a hater...guy seemed like an obnoxious, attention-seeking clown.

but, over the years, he's shown that he's a genuine goof that just enjoys riding the crap out of a bike.

Peter's ok...hope he has a long and successful career.

[MaraudingWalrus]

Flash, I really don't know what else you want from the guy. It's incredible how hard you look for ways to dislike the guy.

In the last eighteen months the dude has won a week long stage race in the Tour of California (mind you, doing so by performing well above [below?] his weight in the high mountains), the World Championships, Flanders, Gent -Wevelgem, the points classifications at the tour (2015), points at Tirreno Adriatico, points at Suisse, points at ToC (2016), and is well on his way to points at this years' tour, which would be his fifth straight.

That's a pretty damned impressive - and varied - results...

[saab2000]

Do the Boonen Treble and its worth a conversation.

So...Flanders/Roubaix/Worlds in the same year?

Well, by this standard, Stephen Roche was the last great road champion and a true rarity in winning the Giro, Tour and World Championship in the same year.

Boonen is a great rider and one of the all time great classics riders. Sagan is not yet there, but he's carving out his own niche. He's won a bunch of green jerseys and is starting to win some larger races. And unlike many others, he seems to really have fun doing it. He makes watching the racing fun and many others make it appear they're winning WWI by themselves.

I hope he has a long career and wins many races and has a great life. He sure seems to have the right attitude.

[FlashUNC]

I really could care less how many green jerseys he racks up. Erik Zabel has seven of the things for Pete's sake. Outside the Giro, I think the Grand Tours are a waste of time.

For riders of his ilk, the one day races are what really matters, and there -- compared to the true greats of the sport at this point in his career -- he comes up lacking for me.

One Monument and one World title? Meh.

[climbgdh]

Well, by this standard, Stephen Roche was the last great road champion and a true rarity in winning the Giro, Tour and World Championship in the same year.

Boonen is a great rider and one of the all time great classics riders. Sagan is not yet there, but he's carving out his own niche. He's won a bunch of green jerseys and is starting to win some larger races. And unlike many others, he seems to really have fun doing it. He makes watching the racing fun and many others make it appear they're winning WWI by themselves.

I hope he has a long career and wins many races and has a great life. He sure seems to have the right attitude.

+1000..... I like him. He's a goof ball that appears at least to have a blast doing what he does. Although his palmares are already pretty damn impressive if he stays healthy I expect he'll go down as one of the best of his generation at the very least......

[FlashUNC]

Flash, I really don't know what else you want from the guy. It's incredible how hard you look for ways to dislike the guy.

In the last eighteen months the dude has won a week long stage race in the Tour of California (mind you, doing so by performing well above [below?] his weight in the high mountains), the World Championships, Flanders, Gent -Wevelgem, the points classifications at the tour (2015), points at Tirreno Adriatico, points at Suisse, points at ToC (2016), and is well on his way to points at this years' tour, which would be his fifth straight.

That's a pretty damned impressive - and varied - results...

Tour of California? Yup. Superhuman performance beating Julian Alaphillipe there. Took time bonuses on stages to do it.

Let's not cite the week long Tour most guys use as a sponsor vacation instead of killing themselves at the Giro.

He's won two one-day races that matter, which is an awfully thin gruel for a guy whos supposed to be the greatest evar omg.

He's a poor man's version of Rudi Altig. And even that's overstating it.

[fiamme red]

He's a poor man's version of Rudi Altig. And even that's overstating it.I don't understand the comparison.

By the way, Altig was the most impressive physical specimen ever to wear a Rapha jersey. ;)

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/sts-altig-0955-920.jpg

[denapista]

I guess everyone missed this article..

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/06/commentary/peter-sagan-eventually-wins-tour_410003

[fourflys]

Flash,

I usually like your postings and conversation... but in this case, wow buddy... you come off as a grumpy old man that's yelling "get off my lawn!" or "I walk 6 miles to school, these ungrateful kids don't know how good they got it!"...

You're certainly allowed to have your opinion, but you sound like a man on a witchhunt...

BTW- I think a lot of what you were saying has been said about Cav in the past and he's currently in second for most tour stage victories EVER... pretty awesome accomplishment regardless of who you are and I see Sagan getting there or close to it one day...

[weisan]

http://www.tourcycling.com/images/triathlon%20lance.jpg

http://www.atomicmall.com/cpic/4/13250_2_1993-world-pro-amateur-road-championships-dvd-lance-armstrong.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4177/1071/1600/LanceBody.jpg

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/features/wiggins-2002worlds.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/DEZ7Uml.jpg


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0e/7d/4b/0e7d4b359a43e2bb915963b1a1ea5ff5.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Chris_Froome_Tour_De_France_2008_(cropped).jpg

https://crankpunk.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/chris-froome-2014-team-sky-kit.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6b/8f/0c/6b8f0c3ec172998cd020c064554967ac.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Cadel_Evans_en_jaune_2011.jpg

[weisan]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Contador.jpg

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/yellow-jersey-holder-alberto-contador-of-spain-and-astana-passes-larc-picture-id89262816

[oldpotatoe]

I know most don't like Lemond but he talked about being 'artificially light' to be a successful grand tour rider..long time ago..and to also make as much $ as possible as soon as possible..cuz it can end at any time.

Not sure if Sagan can lose enough to be a GT contender..even some skinny guys can't climb...

[FlashUNC]

Flash,

I usually like your postings and conversation... but in this case, wow buddy... you come off as a grumpy old man that's yelling "get off my lawn!" or "I walk 6 miles to school, these ungrateful kids don't know how good they got it!"...

You're certainly allowed to have your opinion, but you sound like a man on a witchhunt...

BTW- I think a lot of what you were saying has been said about Cav in the past and he's currently in second for most tour stage victories EVER... pretty awesome accomplishment regardless of who you are and I see Sagan getting there or close to it one day...

Chuck D and Flavor Flav said it best. Don't believe the hype.

[MattTuck]

I'm not sure if it is the perspective of the photograph, but that looks like a giant on a small bike. The handlebars look tiny!


I don't understand the comparison.

By the way, Altig was the most impressive physical specimen ever to wear a Rapha jersey. ;)

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/sts-altig-0955-920.jpg

[berserk87]

On a side note: when, on the day of a particular stage, you start a thread with a rider's name and add "spoiler alert" in the title, it sorta gives it away.

[Climb01742]

My two cents: Sagan appears to genuinely enjoy riding his bike. Would going for the GC be more fun than he's having now? Like Fabian, he's built bigger and trying to get skinny enough to climb like a GC rider might be a) impossible but b) even if possible, why do it? It would be less fun than he's having and probably result in a less successful palmares, which would mean a smaller contract. Imagine how much he'll make next season. He's successful, he's having fun, he's earning big bucks and he's gaining in popularity. Why change anything;):rolleyes::):beer:??

[bobswire]

These kinds of threads titter on being hyperbolic yet are fun and at times very educational. Good read,thanks. Kinda like this one > http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=190154

[Jgrooms]

My two cents: Sagan appears to genuinely enjoy riding his bike. Would going for the GC be more fun than he's having now? Like Fabian, he's built bigger and trying to get skinny enough to climb like a GC rider might be a) impossible but b) even if possible, why do it? It would be less fun than he's having and probably result in a less successful palmares, which would mean a smaller contract. Imagine how much he'll make next season. He's successful, he's having fun, he's earning big bucks and he's gaining in popularity. Why change anything;):rolleyes::):beer:??



Good points. However, he's not quite as big as FC.

I think all the guys that win at some point have to wonder, could I?

For lack of a better analogy, it is pretty much "The Show." Yes, yes, argue otherwise, but it is.

He's not a pure sprinter. Depending on where & when, he appears to be 165-170 lbs. 150 do the trick?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[weisan]

OK I will say it...purely from an entertainment standpoint and certainly not trying to take anything away from them...GC riders make me yawn. Give me this guy (even today), I will pay good money for the price of admission.
:D

http://images.cyclingtips.com.au/content/uploads/2014/12/mariocipollini2.jpg

[Ciavete]

It does seem to be getting late in the hour for a Froome v Quintana mano a mano thriller. At least that was what I was hoping for.

That said, Froome's kamikaze breakaway descent a few stages back was quite entertaining, if an aberration.

OK I will say it...purely from an entertainment standpoint and certainly not trying to take anything away from them...GC riders make me yawn.
:D

[weisan]

That said, Froome's kamikaze breakaway descent a few stages back was quite entertaining, if an aberration.

What would be most entertaining is ...if he crashed, not that I wish that on anyone, not even my worst enemy :eek:

http://www.gifs.com/gif/chris-froome-epic-descent-descente-stage-tape-8-tour-de-france-2016-ERgZ24

[crankles]

OK I will say it...purely from an entertainment standpoint and certainly not trying to take anything away from them...GC riders make me yawn. Give me this guy (even today), I will pay good money for the price of admission.
:D


Totally. He was even known to go pretty fast now and then.

[weisan]

Totally. He was even known to go pretty fast now and then.

You mean like this?
https://vimeo.com/170078843

[jlwdm]

It does seem to be getting late in the hour for a Froome v Quintana mano a mano thriller. At least that was what I was hoping for.

....

Froome is not that far ahead of Quintana and with four straight stages in the Alps (one a time trial) it seems reasonable for Quintana to win this year based on the time he took from Froome on the last two days of climbing last year. So the Movistar mantra is we are waiting until the third week.

There is one problem with this though. Stage 12. Froome made his move and Porte followed immediately. Then Quintana bridged up easily in his smooth, effortless style. And after a very short distance Quintana dropped off the back without a hard effort by Froome. Was this all he had? If so I don't expect him to do anything special in the Alps.

Looking forward to the Alps.

I expect Froome to do well in the uphill time trial on Thursday. He is a good climber but also a great time trialist and even in an uphill time trial it is important to have good time trialing skills - physical and mental.

Jeff

[weisan]

I wouldn't write this off just yet...

[bikingshearer]

I really could care less how many green jerseys he racks up. Erik Zabel has seven of the things for Pete's sake. Outside the Giro, I think the Grand Tours are a waste of time.

For riders of his ilk, the one day races are what really matters, and there -- compared to the true greats of the sport at this point in his career -- he comes up lacking for me.

One Monument and one World title? Meh.

He's still young yet. Give it time. He has plenty of time to bag a bunch more Monuments and other classics and shorter stage races, a la Sean Kelly. The "meh" may end up being warranted, but for now it is certainly premature.

Having said that, if Sagan doesn't float your boat, he doesn't float your boat. Enjoy other riders who do. I personally think he is a breath of fresh air, which sometimes goes a bit far (pinching the podium girl's bum? Not the best idea anyone ever had, but at least he handled the fallout pretty well). I'm hoping he becomes one of the very, very few to win all five Monuments. That doesn't make you wrong, it just means we disagree. 'S all good.

[cadence90]

You mean like this?
https://vimeo.com/170078843

What is that tube strapped across his back?

And that rider coming up the other way..."Cacchio, that was Cipo!!!" no doubt. :D

[weisan]

Shearer pal, you are one kind gentle soul that shows compassion and mercy to the... :D

Cadence pal, I don't want to give it away, you can find out for yourself here: https://youtu.be/5lKRxk7uq8U

[cadence90]

Cadence pal, I don't want to give it away, you can find out for yourself here: https://youtu.be/5lKRxk7uq8U

weisan, you are awesome! :beer:

And I thought that the first (Vimeo) video you posted was just some video of him out on a training ride. :D
Holy small onions, I wonder how many old Italian lire were spent on that production...wow.

[crankles]

I really could care less how many green jerseys he racks up. Erik Zabel has seven of the things for Pete's sake. Outside the Giro, I think the Grand Tours are a waste of time.


Wait a minute, in another thread you were comparing Sagan negatively to Zabel, but now that Sagan is close to his record # of points jerseys (which you now dismiss since it no longer fits your "old fashion" view of how that jersey is awarded) points jerseys don't count toward greatness...only monuments.

it seems to me that as soon as Sagan nears any bar you set, you move the bar.

I love Sagan. I don't think he is currently the 'most talented" rider in the peleton, but your beloved Boonen as far from greatness as Sagan relative to their respective career arcs.

[Fivethumbs]

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/sts-altig-0955-920.jpg[/QUOTE]

I hear people talking about one's "sock game". Is having no socks a la Altig a sock game? Cuz, I'm down with that.

[fiamme red]

I hear people talking about one's "sock game". Is having no socks a la Altig a sock game? Cuz, I'm down with that.It's a track thing, where Altig started out -- amateur world champion in pursuit, twice professional world champion in pursuit, many six-day victories.

The man had style!

[cadence90]

That bottom photo is amazing. He even looks a bit like a young Bear Bryant.

That wasn't shot at the Tour de Tuscaloosa, was it? :D

[Fivethumbs]

If someone rolled up on a ride looking like that...I'd have a beer with him.

[weisan]

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/features/711-front.jpg

Eric Heiden

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P6k9ATMWrr0/TmGMQy_ZFJI/AAAAAAAAAKg/MZFxYxRE3LM/s800/Heiden1985TwiliteCrit002.jpg

[cadence90]

Eric Heiden
So stellar.

[David Tollefson]

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/sts-altig-0955-920.jpg

I hear people talking about one's "sock game". Is having no socks a la Altig a sock game? Cuz, I'm down with that.

That is the mark of one who is beyond the sock game.