The right way to corner

[Veloo]

According to Bicycling July 1991 issue

[Jgrooms]

Counter steering is a lost art.


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[m_sasso]

Mike was my coach from the early 70's until I moved away from Michigan in 1979. Can't say I was part of those 25% of the nations world championship medalists however did enjoy riding with many of them.

[carpediemracing]

The is one critical thing that I'd immediately consider incomplete at best.

There is no one right way to go through a corner.

That is unless you're all by yourself in a controlled environment. Introduce different friction levels, other riders or road users, speed differentials, and goal in that turn, and you're looking at totally different lines.

When that concept falls, that's there's just one way to do a corner, then everything else goes to pot.

[Ti Designs]

When that concept falls, that's there's just one way to do a corner, then everything else goes to pot.

Like everything else in cycling, you learn all sorts of ways to do anything and let the conditions dictate which method you use.

When I teach climbing, I teach in the saddle spinning a lower gear, in the saddle pushing a larger gear, out of the saddle dropping the body weight on the pedal, and out of the saddle with the torso level with the road, almost like sprinting. My winter climbing classes are too hard to sustain any one method, you learn to use what you know to make it work.

The final two corners of the Fitchburg crit are a good test of how much you know about cornering, both in line and technique.

[stephenmarklay]

One thing that I think any cornering method deserves is looking where you want to go ahead on the road and not what your wheel is rolling over.

This was reinforced to me in motorcycle training.

[Sierra]

Counter steering is a lost art.


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+1

Keith Code, Lee Parks, Reg Pridmore. Read their books; the best motorcyclists can inform. There are proponents who stress counter steering and those who stress the use of body weight a bit more. Heck, even Nibali has been working with Valentino Rossi on these types of things. Oh, and it was said already--look through the turn and don't target fixate (a bit more critical not to do this on a moto. With the regard to the inclination and weight of the head alone, it is amazing what a good dressage rider can accomplish with a simple nod or slight twist of the neck).

[Tandem Rider]

That article doesn't even scratch the surface on how to corner fast on a bicycle. They left out more than they put in.

[fogrider]

I remember reading that article back in the day...while I don't remember how long the article was, what was copied here is only a few pages...like all skills, it takes practice and there is always more to learn.

[topflightpro]

Funny, sometimes I do it like the article says, just to mix things up. I never really thought about it until I read this.

Also, this is probably a good technique for women to learn. Based on discussions with my wife and some friends of hers, many women have issues cornering well. In large part, that has to do with their centers of gravity being in their hips, whereas men carry more of their weight in their chest and shoulders. For a man, dropping a shoulder helps lean into a turn. For many women, it has little to no effect.

[wildboar]

In the next issue Davis Phinney wrote an article specifically debunking this cornering technique, if memory serves.

[AngryScientist]

That article doesn't even scratch the surface on how to corner fast on a bicycle. They left out more than they put in.

to take that a step further, cornering is definitely one of those things you just cant learn from reading about. there are some things you just have to learn on the road.

[Sierra]

to take that a step further, cornering is definitely one of those things you just cant learn from reading about. there are some things you just have to learn on the road.

Yep. There is the theory and there is the practice. The road is the ultimate teacher.

[AngryScientist]

Yep. There is the theory and there is the practice. The road is the ultimate teacher.

and to go a step even further than that....

some things, i find - the more you think about, the worse you are. high speed handling of a bicycle, or motorcycle has to become instinctive. the body needs to DO, without having to filter through the brain.

so the theory is good and all, and something to practice out on the road, but you're really not a good bike handler until you dont have to think at all about what line to take or how to get around a hairpin, you just have to do it.

[Sierra]

and to go a step even further than that....

some things, i find - the more you think about, the worse you are. high speed handling of a bicycle, or motorcycle has to become instinctive. the body needs to DO, without having to filter through the brain.

so the theory is good and all, and something to practice out on the road, but you're really not a good bike handler until you dont have to think at all about what line to take or how to get around a hairpin, you just have to do it.

Truer words were never written. Now, if only those dudes over in the Power Meter vs Pedal Stroke thread will take it to heart we'd all be better off for it.

[redir]

Pull up on the inside handlebar?

[Jgrooms]

Its easy to hone up on the skill. Find an empty parking lot & roll a fig eight around some islands. Go faster & faster. The only way to go fast is by counter steering.

The skill one day may keep you up or save your life. When in a turn-lean induced corner, its often the only way to make an abrupt line change.




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[benb]

I've been working on my MTB technique lately. I spent enough time on motorcycles that I had it ingrained in my head pretty thoroughly to lean my body more than the bike like the picture in the OP.

It is really wrong for MTB, dramatically wrong due to the differences in relative weight between rider & bike. On a moto it tends to be 1:2-3 in terms of rider:bike. For us it is more like 5-10:1. Because of this the MTB guys all advocate leaning out to move your CG over the tires. I am kind of convinced it is stupid on the road to to lean in as well. We NEVER get near our max cornering angle on the road. The only reason you lean in on a moto is they tend to have much more severe cornering limits. (I have crashed from touching down my exhaust at the racetrack for example.)

I don't see any real need to move my body to the outside of the corner on the road but it sure as hell has made a dramatic difference very quickly for MTB now that I am consciously working on it. Way less understeer and pushing in tight corners. Watch the MTB videos.. they all do it. For road I am thinking no lean at all, stay in line with the bike as the speed you start pedaling again seems to be more important than MTB.

It has always amazed me how little time is spent on this among roadies.. but then again it is not really required to win races as long as you have the watts.

[Mark McM]

Its easy to hone up on the skill. Find an empty parking lot & roll a fig eight around some islands. Go faster & faster. The only way to go fast is by counter steering.


Unfortuately, as with many things in bicycling, cyclists insist on using their own terminology to describe things, even if that terminology is inconsistant with it's common usage, or even oxymoronic. A classic example is the term "counter-steering".

In its most literal sense, counter-steering is steering the front wheel away from the direction of an intended change of trajectory. Because single track vehicles (such as bicycles and motorcycles) are balanced on a narrow ground contact area, they must always be counter-steered to change their trajectory. The purpose of the counter-steering action is to change the lean angle of the bike, to cause it to lean as necessary for the new trajectory. The counter-steering action only occurs at the start of the trajectory change - if the front wheel were continued to be steered away from the new trajectory of motion, the lean angle would continue to change until the bike had completely fallen over. (Note: I use the term "trajectory" instead of turn because turns are both initiated and terminated by a counter-steering action).

Many cyclists instead use the term "counter-steering" to mean leaning the bike further into a turn that the center of gravity (i.e. "pushing the bike down into the turn"). While this is a valid cornering technique, it is not counter-steering - even the bike is pushed down into the turn, the front wheel is still steered into the arc of the turn, and not steered away, or "counter" to the turn. Since counter-steering occurs regardless of whether the bike pushed down into the turn, it only adds confusion to call this technique "counter-steering".


As far as "the right way to corner", well there is no one right way. Different techniques may be better or worse for different situations. A skilled cyclist should master a variety of different ways to corner, so he/she may call upon the best technique for a given situation.

[bshell]

and I'm more confused than when I got here. I'm not sure what to do when I ride this evening.

[makoti]

Pull up on the inside handlebar?

That caught my eye, too. Have I been doing it wrong? I thought you weighted the outside pedal & pressed down slightly on the inside bar?

[William]

Davis...

[William]

Roy...

[William]

Greg...

[Mark McM]

Here's a photo of Jobst Brandt. He's cornering harder than the photo of Roy Knickman, and possible harder than the photo of Davis Phinney - but he's not pushing down on the inside handlebar like the other two are. We know this because the center of his body is slightly inside the plane of his bike. There is more than one way to corner hard ...

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/Gallery/tiretest.jpg

[William]

Here's a photo of Jobst Brandt. He's cornering harder than the photo of Roy Knickman, and possible harder than the photo of Davis Phinney - but he's not pushing down on the inside handlebar like the other two are. We know this because the center of his body is slightly inside the plane of his bike. There is more than one way to corner hard ...

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/Gallery/tiretest.jpg

Cool photo!

Judging by the position of his front tire in relation to his rear, his body angle, and the curve of the road, he looks like he's going to have to adjust even deeper = dive in.

The thing about snap shots, they are just a glimpse of a fraction of a second of time. Davis's photo is at a clinic where he is traveling slower and on a flat surface. No idea how fast Roy is going or what the angle of the turn is. And will Jobst adjust a moment after this photo was taken and straighten his arm out a bit? Who knows, but what we know for sure is there a few ways to skin a cat within a small spectrum of body moment that goes on in a turn. Body make up and distribution, mindset, learned skills and experiences, and the amount of courage one is willing to lay down in the name of speed all have an effect.







William

[jruhlen1980]

Where I live all the corners are at intersections, and they are guaranteed to have sand or grit on them about 85% of the time, and therefore severe cornering is a good way to crash. Bottom line is, I've never learned to corner worth a crap. Good thing I don't race.

[saab2000]

I have no idea what 'counter steering' actually is. I just ride a bike and it's as natural as walking. You can't teach this stuff I don't think.

Anyway, that picture in the OP's post looks as unnatural as cornering in a tricycle race.

To highlight the absurdity here, notice the rider has two brakes on the front wheel, presumably to conform to a rule requiring two brakes.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XVznHKJ8THY/SzUaJfX3A5I/AAAAAAAAADo/o60xiqCZ9E4/s800/WK2008%20MP%20Vanhaelen%20TT.jpg

[William]

I have no idea what 'counter steering' actually is. I just ride a bike and it's as natural as walking. You can't teach this stuff I don't think.

Anyway, that picture in the OP's post looks as unnatural as cornering in a tricycle race.

To highlight the absurdity here, notice the rider has two brakes on the front wheel, presumably to conform to a rule requiring two brakes.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XVznHKJ8THY/SzUaJfX3A5I/AAAAAAAAADo/o60xiqCZ9E4/s800/WK2008%20MP%20Vanhaelen%20TT.jpg

Saab-pal,

You should know darn good and well that he is exhibiting improper tricycle cornering techniques!

The pros know you have to use your head to counter-balance and prevent flipping. See mr. green helmet, the current Aussie pro dominating the tricycling circuits...

http://onlineathens.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full/12197085.jpg

Note the angle of his head in relation to his pedal...he's flying through that corner and is about to over take the leader!!!







;):D:D
William

[Mark McM]

Cool photo!

Judging by the position of his front tire in relation to his rear, his body angle, and the curve of the road, he looks like he's going to have to adjust even deeper = dive in.

The thing about snap shots, they are just a glimpse of a fraction of a second of time. Davis's photo is at a clinic where he is traveling slower and on a flat surface. No idea how fast Roy is going or what the angle of the turn is. And will Jobst adjust a moment after this photo was taken and straighten his arm out a bit? Who knows, but what we know for sure is there a few ways to skin a cat within a small spectrum of body moment that goes on in a turn. Body make up and distribution, mindset, learned skills and experiences, and the amount of courage one is willing to lay down in the name of speed all have an effect.


It is true that a snapshot is only a moment in time. But in his writings, he has said that leaning off the bike is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Lean the Bicycle, the Rider, or Both


Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle improves cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in dirt-track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads, this is a useless but reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers.

To verify this, coast down a straight but rough road, weight on one pedal with the bike slanted, and note how the bike follows an erratic line. In contrast, if you ride centered on the bike you can ride no-hands perfectly straight over the same road. While leaning off the bike, trail of the front wheel causes steering on rough roads.


Many people like to lean the bike into the corner (i.e. push the bike down into the corner), but as Brandt describes, it is not the optimum way to corner. It does nothing to increase traction or improve reactions, while at the same time making the bike potentially less stable. I think that riders like to push the bike down for the following reasons:

- It allows the rider's upper body/head to remain more vertical, which is a less disorienting position for many people.

- The extra lean of the bike causes the front wheel to naturally steer into the direction of the turn (due to the effect of trail steering), and this auto-steering response is reassuring to some people.**

However, due decreased bicycle stability, this method is probably not best for turning with maximal g forces. A described by Brandt, keep the body in-line with the bike is a more stable position particularly if the road is bumpy, and because the steering forces are minimized the rider can make finer steering corrections.


**I think the reason some people call this technique "counter-steering" is due to the need to counter the excessive trail steering. Due to the steering trail, the front wheel will naturally turn into the direction of the lean - so much so, that the rider has to actively torque the handlebars in the opposite direction to prevent it from steering to much into the turn.

[makoti]

Here's a photo of Jobst Brandt. He's cornering harder than the photo of Roy Knickman, and possible harder than the photo of Davis Phinney - but he's not pushing down on the inside handlebar like the other two are. We know this because the center of his body is slightly inside the plane of his bike. There is more than one way to corner hard ...

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/Gallery/tiretest.jpg

Waiiittt a minute...where's his helmet?? ;)

[weisan]

Watch Cipo: it takes balls and skills
https://vimeo.com/170078843

[saab2000]

Watch Cipo: it takes balls and skills
https://vimeo.com/170078843

That's how it's done.

[Bob Ross]

Many cyclists instead use the term "counter-steering" to mean leaning the bike further into a turn that the center of gravity (i.e. "pushing the bike down into the turn"). While this is a valid cornering technique, it is not counter-steering - even the bike is pushed down into the turn, the front wheel is still steered into the arc of the turn, and not steered away, or "counter" to the turn. Since counter-steering occurs regardless of whether the bike pushed down into the turn, it only adds confusion to call this technique "counter-steering".


As someone who strives desperately to put How We Do This Thing We Do into words that can convey info succinctly -- mostly because I have to teach This Thing as part of a Club program every spring -- I am eagarly hanging on to every word being bandied about in this thread. The above paragraph looks especially potent...except that it's either got a couple of very minor typos, or else I'm completely missing the point! Mark, at the risk of seeming overly pedantic, is this what you meant to write? (corrections in red)

Many cyclists instead use the term "counter-steering" to mean leaning the bike further into a turn than the center of gravity (i.e. "pushing the bike down into the turn"). While this is a valid cornering technique, it is not counter-steering - even [when] the bike is pushed down into the turn, the front wheel is still steered into the arc of the turn, and not steered away, or "counter" to the turn. Since counter-steering occurs regardless of whether the bike [is] pushed down into the turn, it only adds confusion to call this technique "counter-steering".

[christian]

**I think the reason some people call this technique "counter-steering" is due to the need to counter the excessive trail steering. Due to the steering trail, the front wheel will naturally turn into the direction of the lean - so much so, that the rider has to actively torque the handlebars in the opposite direction to prevent it from steering to much into the turn.No, it's called counter-steering, because, even though it's imperceptible on a bicycle, that is how a single-track vehicle steers. It's obvious on a motorcycle. To turn a motorcycle quickly, you push on the inside bar, which causes the contact patch to move outside the center of mass, and the bike falls into the corner. Same process for a bicycle, but the steering inputs are minute.

[Mark McM]

As someone who strives desperately to put How We Do This Thing We Do into words that can convey info succinctly -- mostly because I have to teach This Thing as part of a Club program every spring -- I am eagarly hanging on to every word being bandied about in this thread. The above paragraph looks especially potent...except that it's either got a couple of very minor typos, or else I'm completely missing the point! Mark, at the risk of seeming overly pedantic, is this what you meant to write? (corrections in red)

Ugh! This is what happens when my fingers move faster than my brain (and my fingers don't move all that fast!).

Your corrections are all completely correct.

[Mark McM]

No, it's called counter-steering, because, even though it's imperceptible on a bicycle, that is how a single-track vehicle steers. It's obvious on a motorcycle. To turn a motorcycle quickly, you push on the inside bar, which causes the contact patch to move outside the center of mass, and the bike falls into the corner. Same process for a bicycle, but the steering inputs are minute.

Yes, that's exactly what counter-steering is. And it occurs only at the beginning of a turn.

What I was referring to in the above paragraph was the technique some people refer to as "counter-steering" that involves continuously pushing down on the inside handlebar through out the turn. This technique also requires the rider to continuously fight the tendency of the front wheel to turn too sharply into the corner, which may be why some people erroneously call it "counter-steering"

This is why I said that calling this technique "counter-steering" is confusing. If someone says that they counter-steer continuously through the entire turn, then they aren't using the traditional meaning of the term.

[OtayBW]

No, it's called counter-steering, because, even though it's imperceptible on a bicycle, that is how a single-track vehicle steers. It's obvious on a motorcycle. To turn a motorcycle quickly, you push on the inside bar, which causes the contact patch to move outside the center of mass, and the bike falls into the corner. Same process for a bicycle, but the steering inputs are minute.

Ugh! This is what happens when my fingers move faster than my brain (and my fingers don't move all that fast!).

Your corrections are all completely correct.
Yes. This is how I learned - e.g., push on the inside bar which moves the center of mass and the bike leans into the corner, as Christian says above. Very responsive and very effective. The OP's article indicates that you should pull up on the inside bar which made no sense for me - at least the way I learned to countersteer....

[Jgrooms]

Watch Cipo: it takes balls and skills
https://vimeo.com/170078843



He has a board strapped to his back. What's purpose of that?

Lucky he had a follow car, otherwise, I doubt the oncoming would have gave him that one close corner.


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[spoonrobot]

I'm in the "more than one way to corner effectively camp."

This video is really interesting to see the effect one rider leaning the bike can get compared to more conventional cornering. Peter Sagan at the Tour of Alberta.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NC0UmFV18II

[Jgrooms]

I'm in the "more than one way to corner effectively camp."



This video is really interesting to see the effect one rider leaning the bike can get compared to more conventional cornering. Peter Sagan at the Tour of Alberta.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NC0UmFV18II



Who said its only watts that win races? That one was won in the corner. Gap-game over!


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[weisan]

.

[rustychisel]

.

Screen shots show a dude in blue n white who suddenly realised his racing line was covered and mometarily ceded position... instantly 5m behind the action.
Sagan knew exactly what he was doing in cutting the guys lunch and getting the best possible angle to the apex.

All this talk about counter steering, under steering, lefty righty tighty or pulling the bars is bollocks. Practise cornering; you either learn to do it or you don't.

[Fivethumbs]

Sagan lays his bike over with his weight on the outside pedal which keeps his weight centered over the bike. That's how I learned to corner when racing BMX many years ago. That's how I corner today. With this method, if the tires break free, you and bike slide in unison with you staying over the bike until the tires grab again. I have had my tires break loose and slide on hard downhill corners but I didn't go down because I was able to stay over the bike. I don't like the Jobst Brandt method because its been my experience that if you lean your body over too much and the tires break loose the bike will slip right out from under you. YMMV.

[William]

Sagan lays his bike over with his weight on the outside pedal which keeps his weight centered over the bike. That's how I learned to corner when racing BMX many years ago. That's how I corner today. With this method, if the tires break free, you and bike slide in unison with you staying over the bike until the tires grab again. I have had my tires break loose and slide on hard downhill corners but I didn't go down because I was able to stay over the bike. I don't like the Jobst Brandt method because its been my experience that if you lean your body over too much and the tires break loose the bike will slip right out from under you. YMMV.

Pretty much a ditto there for me as well.

I had a rear tire completely blow out in a corner on a decent. On rubber one second, and the rim the next. As you described above, as my bike started to go I un clipped my inside foot and went right into a power slide. Stayed upright, and luckily no cars were coming the other direction. Yay for BMX skills and SPD recessed cleats!



That Sagan move reminds me of a guy that used to show up at crits on a watermelon colored Softride back in the day in Oregon. He had a way of diving in and compressing the arm which stuck the bike to the pavement and he would rocket out of the corners.






William

[jamesau]

Sagan lays his bike over with his weight on the outside pedal which keeps his weight centered over the bike.

I think it does more than just that; it helps maximize traction through the corner and keeps you from losing it in the first place, especially on imperfect road surfaces. Basically, all your weight is placed on a low pivot between the wheels and the man/machine creates a type of bogie suspension to distribute and equalize the forces that the front and rear wheel axles experience. This is a half-baked idea, but intuitively, it strikes me that something like this is at play.

[redir]

That caught my eye, too. Have I been doing it wrong? I thought you weighted the outside pedal & pressed down slightly on the inside bar?

Nope you are doing it right, or at least one of the 'right' methods. As a sanity check I went out last night to be sure ;)

The first impression I had when looking at this article was the picture. The guy is making a left turn and is leaning way out to the left. I tried that method last night too and weighted the outside pedal AND the outside bar. This type of turn reminds me more of what I do in cyclocross or mountain biking when cornering in mud. For obvious reasons you cannot lean the bike over when you corner in mud so you try to keep it more upright and use your weight to 'throw' the bike around the corner.

But on a nice smooth road it's weight down on the outside pedal and pull up on the outside bar (push down on the inside) to torque the bike into the turn.

[weisan]

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Sure-Sidecar-Race-2.jpg

http://www.whistlersportlegacies.com/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow_crop/public/ThunderOnIce-SEP-Sled-PointRight-3000px-RGB_0.jpg?itok=ZSCWd_Bs

http://www.aimag.com/wp-content/uploads/Victory-Empulse-RR-Isle-of-.jpg

[Mark McM]

Sagan lays his bike over with his weight on the outside pedal which keeps his weight centered over the bike.

I think some of us here need to go back to high school physics where we learned about force vectors.

Sagan is not keeping his weight centered over his bike. If you watch him, he is initiating his turn with a very aggressive counter-steer (steering right when he wants to go left), and the purpose of that counter-steer is to swing the bike out from under him to his right. This creates a very rapid transition into a left lean. As soon as that lean is established, he steers the front wheel back to the left, into the turn.

Swinging the bike out from under the rider creates a momentary instability, but it also allows for rapid changes in direction. But if you look closely, his center of gravity is never more than 30 - 35 degrees from the vertical. This produces a lateral force of about 0.5 - 0.6 g. On the other hand, the photo of Jobst Brandt shows a lean angle of close to 45 degrees, which is a lateral force of about 1 g. Brandt is cornering harder than Sagan is.

If a rider needs to change direction rapidly, but does not need to sustain high lateral forces, leaning the bike out from the under rider can be a good technique. This is what Sagan is doing. But if the rider needs to sustain high lateral forces through out the turn, it is more stable to keep the C.G. in the plane of the bike. This is what Brandt is doing.

[Mark McM]

I think it does more than just that; it helps maximize traction through the corner and keeps you from losing it in the first place, especially on imperfect road surfaces. Basically, all your weight is placed on a low pivot between the wheels and the man/machine creates a type of bogie suspension to distribute and equalize the forces that the front and rear wheel axles experience. This is a half-baked idea, but intuitively, it strikes me that something like this is at play.

This doesn't really work, if you think about it. While loading the bike at a low pivot is probably a good idea, leaning a bike over actually raises the outside pedal.

Also, rolling the tire over toward its sidewall is not going to increase traction - and depending on the tread shape, may even expose the sidewall to the ground.

[jamesau]

This doesn't really work, if you think about it.

It seems you don't understand the point I was trying to make. I was not considering where to place one's body relative to the plane of the bike frame. I was suggesting that having all of your body weight on a low-point pivot (bottom bracket) creates a man/machine suspension system that enhances traction. This is akin to unweighting the saddle (standing on the pedals) to maintain line/traction/control when traversing a rough section of road/trail.

And I'm all about countersteering for turn initiation/completion and modifying a line while cornering.

[Fivethumbs]

I think some of us here need to go back to high school physics where we learned about force vectors.

Come on, I said YMMV.