Attack in France [Archive] - The Paceline Forum

makoti

07-14-2016, 06:55 PM

He (they?) shot first, then drove that bomb laden truck 2km through the crowd mowing people down like a snowplow. Sick.

Millions of people are on the Champs for the finish of the Tour.

The report I heard didn't mention shots or bombs, but I can't imagine killing 60 people with a truck. This is a crazy world, now. What the hell is wrong with people?

parris

07-14-2016, 10:39 PM

I've got a buddy that's worried for friends and family there. Those who are evil will manage to find a way and it's horrible any way you slice it.

JMacII

07-14-2016, 10:51 PM

Why France?

Why France? Why Orlando? Why anywhere? Wherever people are free the jihadis will strike. There is a war between our cultures whether we want to admit it or not.

Louis

07-14-2016, 10:58 PM

Why France? Why Orlando? Why anywhere? Wherever people are free the jihadis will strike.

Actually, they strike a heck of a lot more often where people are not free too.

reconstyle

07-15-2016, 12:07 AM

I wonder what effect this will have on the Tdf. Horrible.

cadence90

07-15-2016, 01:05 AM

What is especially terrifying is that the video I saw showed the truck slowly rolling down the Promenade des Anglais, and then gathering speed as (it looks like) the police are chasing on foot, desperate and powerless to stop it in time. It is so horrific.

Louis

07-15-2016, 01:12 AM

And what to do you do to prevent the same sort of thing from happening again and again? :(

cadence90

07-15-2016, 01:30 AM

And what to do you do to prevent the same sort of thing from happening again and again? :(

I don't have any idea.
I think a lot of us (at least on the West Coast USA) were awakened on 9/11 thinking at first, "What is this bizarre 'War of the Worlds' recreation on NPR?"
What was happening was not really conceivable, in any logical sense.

And now the reality, between events such as Nice and events such as Dallas just as the most recent, is more horrific than any fiction. The escalation on all fronts is really frightening.

Neil

07-15-2016, 02:59 AM

There is no instant practical defence against a lorry. There are only lengthy, painful ways of untangling the underlying geopolitical mess.

i.e. treating the symptom is not going to fix this.

France is a good choice of venue to fight a proxy war - significant population of French Muslims, predominantly in a low socio-economic bracket, and kept there by the way in which French society is structured.

This is a continuation (in many ways) of the Banlieue riots of the '90s.

You need to either go full-Trump and ethnic-cleanse all Muslims from a society, or you need to fix the reason that they are disenfranchised and angry.

Last nights attacks were horrific, but sadly I don't see any end in sight whilst we follow our current course.

rileystylee

07-15-2016, 03:40 AM

Ironically published 2 days before what happened in Nice.

http://www.politico.eu/article/frances-mutating-terror-threat-islamic-state-terrorists-europe-euro-2016/

RIP all those affected apart from the terrorist.

weisan

07-15-2016, 05:37 AM

Ray

07-15-2016, 05:40 AM

Why France? Why Orlando? Why anywhere? Wherever people are free the jihadis will strike. There is a war between our cultures whether we want to admit it or not.

Except that they target Muslims in Muslim countries even more than they target the west - 200 killed by a bomb in Bagdhad a couple of weeks ago for example. So I don't think it's a war between cultures so much as a bunch of extremists targeting infidels, which they define as anyone who doesn't believe pretty much exactly as they do. They're losing ground in Iraq and Syria quickly, and are even preparing their followers for "the end of the caliphate" - i.e., total territorial defeat. But they seem determined to go out in a hateful blaze of glory and the attacks will likely only intensify, because how do you end an extreme ideology? It's beyond horrible, but it seems to be the new normal...

-Ray

AngryScientist

07-15-2016, 06:31 AM

i just dont get it, and i will never "get" it.

to want to kill people who you have never met, are not part of some army or even political, religious or interest group simply does not compute?

i certainly dont think it's right, but at least i can understand the logic when people attack abortion clinics, churches and government buildings. to go after people who you know nothing at all about baffles me.

how you prevent such a thing is a tall order, and i can only hope we find some very intelligent people who can help to continue to prevent these types of murders.

very sad, and very upsetting.

macaroon

07-15-2016, 06:45 AM

You need to either go full-Trump and ethnic-cleanse all Muslims from a society, or you need to fix the reason that they are disenfranchised and angry.

Get a grip. This was not an attack carried out by "Muslims"; this was carried out by ISIS. Very important to distinguish between them.

93legendti

07-15-2016, 06:53 AM

Get a grip. This was not an attack carried out by "Muslims"; this was carried out by ISIS. Very important to distinguish between them.

ISIS members "identify" as Muslims. ;)

They claim to be Muslim. They pray to Allah and follow the Quran. Get a grip.

oldpotatoe

07-15-2016, 06:54 AM

Get a grip. This was not an attack carried out by "Muslims"; this was carried out by ISIS. Very important to distinguish between them.

Not defending this guy but,

"A terrorist who used a hired lorry to kill at least 84 people in a rampage during Bastille Day celebrations in Nice has been named as a convicted criminal well known to the police for armed attacks.

Tunisian-born Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, a 31-year-old delivery driver, was reported to be a French passport holder who lived in the Riviera city and was regularly in trouble with the law."

Any affiliation with any terrorist organization hasn't been established. Just for info..

But I agree...ISIL/ISIS/Daesh is not 'Muslim' any more than the KKK is 'Christian'.

macaroon

07-15-2016, 06:59 AM

ISIS members "identify" as Muslims. ;)

They claim to be Muslim. They pray to Allah and follow the Quran. Get a grip.

It's important to make the distinction though, for those who're short on brain cells.

Any affiliation with any terrorist organization hasn't been established. Just for info..

Well, an ISIS Twitter account links the Nice attack as retaliation for the death of Abu Omar al-Shishani.....
It could well be them

gdw

07-15-2016, 07:13 AM

I'm really sick of the "they aren't Muslim" dodge. They are an extreme faction of the religion and claiming otherwise is just bs.

93legendti

07-15-2016, 07:16 AM

"In a speech on New Year’s day, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called for a “religious revolution” in Islam that would displace violent jihad from the center of Muslim discourse...

Although the Muslim Brotherhood and its Hamas supporters have been General Sisi’s principal targets since assuming power, his talk made it clear that his concern over radical Islam extends to the entire Muslim world, particularly adherents of the Islamic State, and the non-Muslim world beyond."
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/egyptian-president-calls-for-religious-revolution-in-islam/

THIS terrorist was Muslim. Tunisian descent and shouted "Allah Akbar"... That's what Jewish NRA members yell when they commit terror attacks. :D

The canard that someone decides a Muslim isn't Muslim when he commits a terror attack is the PC way of trying to fool people into still believing that Islam is "a religion of peace". You know, like fooling people into thinking Iran can be peaceful while denying the Holocaist and threatening to destroy Israel, every day.

Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, Iranians, Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbullah, Islamic Jihad, Amal, ISIS, Al Quds, Taliban, PFLP, PLO, Tanzim...they call it "Jihad". It isn't Yiddish for Sunday morning brunch with bagel and lox.

93legendti

07-15-2016, 07:19 AM

It's important to make the distinction though, for those who're short on brain cells...

Only if you want to fool yourself

macaroon

07-15-2016, 07:22 AM

I'm really sick of the "they aren't Muslim" dodge. They are an extreme faction of the religion and claiming otherwise is just bs.

I'm really sick of the racism/islamophobia/xenophobia that seems to be seeping, or perhaps pouring out of the people in our society.

macaroon

07-15-2016, 07:25 AM

The canard that someone decides a Muslim isn't Muslim when he commits a terror attack is the PC way of trying to fool people into still believing that Islam is "a religion of peace"

Oh dear; I hope you're trolling.

oldpotatoe

07-15-2016, 07:28 AM

Only if you want to fool yourself

Don't forget these terrorists.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/may/extremism_052212

This will be locked pretty quick..

What worries me..Tour de France. Huge unmonitored and unscreened crowds..lots of big vehicles parked right next to the course...in France....

gdw

07-15-2016, 07:35 AM

Wonderful... but it's time to stop dodging the truth. These guys are a fringe group, a very large fringe group, of the religion just like the Westboro Baptist Church, Branch Davidians, etc are or were extreme factions of Christianity.

Hilltopperny

07-15-2016, 07:38 AM

Terrorism and religious fanaticism comes in all forms whether it be radical islam, zionist judism or ultra conservative christianity. No matter what you believe, we can all agree that people commit atrocities in the name of every religion and those individuals or groups should be held personally accountable. Blanket blaming a religion is certainly a form of ignorance that is perpetuated by media outlets and the culture in which we live...

fa63

07-15-2016, 07:42 AM

...Blanket blaming a religion...

It is the easy thing to do. And unfortunately, it resonates with people (especially those who are unable to wrap their heads around the complexity of the problem).

Tony T

07-15-2016, 07:55 AM

This will be locked pretty quick

As long as we don't discuss guns it won't (the pro-gun guys are really quick to pm the mods to ask for a "lock")

Mikej

07-15-2016, 07:55 AM

[QUOTE=93legendti;2008303]"In a speech on New Year’s day, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called for a “religious revolution” in Islam that would displace violent jihad from the center of Muslim discourse...

Although the Muslim Brotherhood and its Hamas supporters have been General Sisi’s principal targets since assuming power, his talk made it clear that his concern over radical Islam extends to the entire Muslim world, particularly adherents of the Islamic State, and the non-Muslim world beyond."
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/egyptian-president-calls-for-religious-revolution-in-islam/

THIS terrorist was Muslim. Tunisian descent and shouted "Allah Akbar"... That's what Jewish NRA members yell when they commit terror attacks. :D

The canard that someone decides a Muslim isn't Muslim when he commits a terror attack is the PC way of trying to fool people into still believing that Islam is "a religion of peace". You know, like fooling people into thinking Iran can be peaceful while denying the Holocaist and threatening to destroy Israel, every day.

I agree -

Neil

07-15-2016, 07:57 AM

Get a grip. This was not an attack carried out by "Muslims"; this was carried out by ISIS. Very important to distinguish between them.

I think you need to re-read what I wrote, as the meaning you've taken from it is not what is there.

Sierra

07-15-2016, 07:58 AM

This ain't about religion. Not really. It is about demographic reality. It is about the imbalance created by a burgeoning population living on a land with few natural and economic resources (it was this same, recognized dearth of resources that drove the Syrian strain of Islam to greener pastures in southern Spain, which they invaded in 711 AD by founding Al-Andalus, another, historical example of lebensraum). In particular, you have a whole lot of males sitting around with nothing to do but to drink tea* and plot. It is the same inbalance that keeps the Chinese leadership up at night as well.

Apropos to tea: a little alcohol consumption would serve these populations and cultures well, I think. You think I jest? While it is undeniable that misuse of intoxicants does some harm, they have always also performed some valuable functions--by way of behavior modification--for societies; and this goes unheralded and under appreciated, really, sadly, by our puritanical (at heart, ironically!) society. With regard to the aforementioned, 700 year-old Caliphate of Al-Andalus--well, they planted vineyards, became "soft" in the view of more radical forms of Islam, and by 1492 were booted out of southern Spain, finally, by the pincers of Spain's brand new queen, Isabella, and the neo Islamic radicals of northern Africa (rabid, wild-eyed teetotalers they were!). To celebrate her joyous achievement, Queen Isabella decided to found a new continent. That's it in a very small nutshell.

fa63

07-15-2016, 08:09 AM

THIS terrorist was Muslim. Tunisian descent and shouted "Allah Akbar"... That's what Jewish NRA members yell when they commit terror attacks. :D

Shouting Allahu Akbar does not make one a Muslim, or mean that they follow the Quran. Just like going to church does not make a Christian or mean that you follow the Bible, etc..

macaroon

07-15-2016, 08:21 AM

I think you need to re-read what I wrote, as the meaning you've taken from it is not what is there.

Yeh, apologies. I didn't read it properly the first time.

Chris

07-15-2016, 08:31 AM

ISIS members "identify" as Muslims. ;)

They claim to be Muslim. They pray to Allah and follow the Quran. Get a grip.

I'm always so saddened to read some of your posts. You've been a valued member of this forum for a long time and I think that you are likely a very good person. However, it always disturbs me when a member of a religion/ethnic group/race/"identity" that has had such a profound history of discrimination, persecution and ethnic genocide perpetrated against it, is so quick to cast such prejudiced rhetoric at another group because of the actions of fringe groups amongst them. We really are at the point of the tails of the bell curve dominating the conversation.

No religion, except as Sam Harris points out - the Jains, is free from its fundamentalists from which society would better be free.

Brit HaKanaim
Kingdom of Isreal
Gush Emunim Underground
Bat Ayin
Lehava
Sikrikim
Kahane Chai
The Jewish Defense League
The Revolt Terror Group

I think we would all be better off without religious extremism of any sort myself. Perhaps without religion at all, but to paint the members of any one group with the same brush because of how they "identify" is extremely dangerous, as no one knows more than the Jewish people.

My thoughts are with all of the families in France today.

Bruce K

07-15-2016, 08:36 AM

It will only get locked if we:

1. Rehash the same stuff or get repetitive
2. Devolve into personal attacks
3. Get into racism
4. People troll

BK

Bruce K

07-15-2016, 08:42 AM

People have cloaked themselves in religion for centuries as justification for heinous crimes (see the Crusades or ISIS or the Salem Witch Trials or ...)

There should be a distinction between Islam and those who pervert it for their own purposes but when the mainstream does not denounce them it makes it hard not to assume that they support them

This is a clash of ideology where one side is trying to play by the rules of most modern societies and the other side could care less about being civil

BK

Tony T

07-15-2016, 08:46 AM

It's been repetitive for the past 2 pages.
The Paceline should not be a place to discuss religion.
A discussion on the current US election would be locked within 2 posts.

KJMUNC

07-15-2016, 08:47 AM

Ugh, just found out that the American father and son killed were local....went to my kids' elementary school and live in the area. Didn't know them personally but have many friends in common. Great family, very active in local sports and were just there on vacation. Had just posted pics of the kids playing on the hours before this happened.

This is the exact thing I was paranoid about when I took my family to Europe last month for two weeks. It's our 2nd trip over this year and during both trips I kept telling myself "this is like sitting in the surf lineup and worrying about getting bit by a shark.....the odds are incredibly small that it happens to you", but the sheer randomness of it makes it worse, especially when it hits this close to home. It won't stop us from going, but France isn't high on my list right now.

All the bickering about whether he was/wasn't Muslim doesn't matter. He self-identified with a group that wants to wipe the rest of us from the face of the earth so they can revert to stone-age religious tenets (bastardized as they may be). As Neil mentioned above....there is no easy fix to this. Days like to day I just want to go ride my bike and wish everyone else would just do the same. :(

fa63

07-15-2016, 08:49 AM

There should be a distinction between Islam and those who pervert it for their own purposes but when the mainstream does not denounce them it makes it hard not to assume that they support them

All Muslims that I know denounce these attacks. It is just that collectively, it appears to me that Muslims have struggled to find a voice in this country. This also means that they get little media coverage when they do in fact denounce, and people in turn assume the worst.

rileystylee

07-15-2016, 08:53 AM

I'm really sick of the racism/islamophobia/xenophobia that seems to be seeping, or perhaps pouring out of the people in our society.

I'm really sick of terrorists and religious fanatics who murder innocent people (Bush, Blair ISIS, IRA, KKK etc ) Why do you think people hold - in your opinion - racist, islamaphobic , xenophobic views??
Freedom of thought and freedom of speech are paramount.
I'm really sick of navel gazing pseudo-intellectuals personally.

Tony T

07-15-2016, 08:55 AM

I'm really sick of terrorists and religious fanatics who murder innocent people (Bush, Blair ISIS, IRA, KKK etc ) Why do you think people hold - in your opinion - racist, islamaphobic , xenophobic views??
Freedom of thought and freedom of speech are paramount.
I'm really sick of navel gazing pseudo-intellectuals personally.

Its Bush's fault???

Mike V

07-15-2016, 08:58 AM

80 people killed by a truck. How are we going to get things done without trucks.

fa63

07-15-2016, 08:58 AM

Its Bush's fault???

Bush's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a lot to do with the current environment we are in.

Sierra

07-15-2016, 08:59 AM

rileystylee

07-15-2016, 09:01 AM

Bush and Blair buddying up and going after S Hussein due to so called weapons of mass destruction has caused a huge amount of disruption , destruction and Ill feeling in that part of the world has contributed to what we're seeing now.

http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/

Not all their fault by any means but hasn't helped

rileystylee

07-15-2016, 09:04 AM

I beg your pardon, sir. I may resemble that remark. I urge you to take it back forthwith or fisticuffs it will be betwixt us! :D

Aha, I challenge you to a duel kind sir- snowballs at the ready.:fight:
After the fight I shall offer you a pint of ale to show there's no hard feelings

malcolm

07-15-2016, 09:04 AM

They are absolutely muslim, but I think more important is they are fundamentalist muslim and like all fundamentalists they are unhappy with the direction of their chosen religion/belief system and want to go back to the basics and literal interpretations of vague books.

They use the economically depressed and ignorant to further their cause by creating an environment where anything not them is evil. It seems especially attractive to young males with little else to do.

Almost every religion I've ever read about has their versions of this, just maybe not to this extreme.
The one saving grace if you will in the west is by luck or plan we seem to keep our law making away from religious leaders. Could you imagine the US if we allowed Jerry Falwell and his ilk to make our laws??

It's not so much that they are muslim but that they are fundamentalists. There should be a huge distinction.

Tony T

07-15-2016, 09:04 AM

Bush's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a lot to do with the current environment we are in.

And do you also blame the USA for the WTC attack?

Sierra

07-15-2016, 09:07 AM

Aha, I challenge you to a duel kind sir- snowballs at the ready.:fight:
After the fight I shall offer you a pint of ale to show there's no hard feelings

Ah, thank you, sir! I think you'll find me always at the ready for a pint. Or two; or more.

54ny77

07-15-2016, 09:08 AM

close this, please.

there's about 1,856,912 other websites to peruse discussions like this.

Sierra

07-15-2016, 09:12 AM

close this, please.

there's about 1,856,912 other websites to peruse discussions like this.

Killjoy. Some of us were having lots of fun. :D

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:12 AM

And do you also blame the USA for the WTC attack?

Do I think US is directly responsible for the attacks? No.

Do I think our historic actions in the Middle East contributed to the attack? Yes.

Isn't it not possible to have opinions that are not at the logical extremes anymore? Does it always have to be yes or no? Have the lawyers finally won? :D

93legendti

07-15-2016, 09:13 AM

Bush's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a lot to do with the current environment we are in.

Right, Afghanis no doubt long for the days of Taliban Rule...

"The U.S.-led war in Afghanistan brought to an end the inhumane rule of the Taliban for more than 20 million Muslims who live there. The Taliban constituted one of the most misogynist governments in human history. Delighting in public executions at soccer stadiums where family members were compelled to discharge AK-47s in the skulls of "adulterers," this government murdered Muslim women in order to create its own despicable spectacle of governance by terror. Today, those marginalized and dissident members of the Taliban ride about on motorcycles throwing acid in the faces of liberated schoolgirls across the Afghan countryside in hopes of returning to power. "

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:14 AM

Right, Afghanis no doubt long for the days of Taliban Rule...

I never said they did.

We solved one problem, but created ten others.

Chris

07-15-2016, 09:14 AM

Its Bush's fault???

I don't think anyone in the know believes that Bush orchestrated all this. Clearly his administration's decisions and those of Blair's led to a massive destabilization of that region. The subsequent administration and their efforts in Libya, Egypt and Syria haven't helped. Hussein was a stabilizing factor in the region. Dare I say having the evil we knew there would have been much better than the evil we now know? The track record of the West in that region has been nothing but poor.

Sierra

07-15-2016, 09:16 AM

Right, Afghanis no doubt long for the days of Taliban Rule...

"The U.S.-led war in Afghanistan brought to an end the inhumane rule of the Taliban for more than 20 million Muslims who live there. The Taliban constituted one of the most misogynist governments in human history. Delighting in public executions at soccer stadiums where family members were compelled to discharge AK-47s in the skulls of "adulterers," this government murdered Muslim women in order to create its own despicable spectacle of governance by terror. Today, those marginalized and dissident members of the Taliban ride about on motorcycles throwing acid in the faces of liberated schoolgirls across the Afghan countryside in hopes of returning to power. "

It is interesting to remember that the US played a crucial role in having created the Taliban as a bulwark to the Russian occupation during the 1980s. We're really, really good at stirring things up around the world that eventually come back to bite us hard.

93legendti

07-15-2016, 09:17 AM

I never said they did.

We solved one problem, but created ten others.

No, that would be the foolish decisions to destabilize Libya and Iraq in the last 3 years

BigDaddySmooth

07-15-2016, 09:17 AM

Bush's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a lot to do with the current environment we are in.

Naturally, someone blamed Bush.:confused:

This clash of civilizations happened a long time ago but it became more media aware in 1979 in Iran with the overthrow of the Shah. The numerous events that have happened since have been under both Democrats and Republican Presidents so to blame one man is just partisan silliness. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan didn't help matters either.

Get use to it people. I'm an OIF/OEF veteran. During my 2006 and 2008 deployments, what I saw, read (classified and unclassified) and discussed with members from various coalition units convinced me that Islamic extremism attacks are the new normal.

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:17 AM

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:19 AM

Naturally, someone blamed Bush.:confused:

This clash of civilizations happened a long time ago but it became more media aware in 1979 in Iran with the overthrow of the Shah. The numerous events that have happened since have been under both Democrats and Republican Presidents so to blame one man is just partisan silliness. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan didn't help matters either.

Get use to it people. I'm an OIF/OEF veteran. During my 2006 and 2008 deployments, what I saw, read (classified and unclassified) and discussed with members from various coalition units convinced me that Islamic extremism attacks are the new normal.

Bush surely deserves some of the blame, but I never said he is solely responsible.

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:20 AM

No, that would be the foolish decisions to destabilize the Middle East in the last 50 years

I made a quick edit.

Tony T

07-15-2016, 09:22 AM

Bush surely deserves some of the blame, but I never said he is solely responsible.

You included him (and Blair) in a group that you described as "terrorists and religious fanatics who murder innocent people"

93legendti

07-15-2016, 09:23 AM

It is interesting to remember that the US played a crucial role in having created the Taliban as a bulwark to the Russian occupation during the 1980s. We're really, really good at stirring things up around the world that eventually come back to bite us hard.

While it may or may not be interesting...

That's moving the goal posts from the original post blaming Bush and Blair

Bush's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a lot to do with the current environment we are in.

Seems to me after all we have done for Muslims in Kuwait, Kosovo, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan, etc...they should love us.

93legendti

07-15-2016, 09:25 AM

I made a quick edit.

Pity you went for the fictional narrative.

I can edit my own posts, thank you.

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:25 AM

You included him (and Blair) in a group that you described as "terrorists and religious fanatics who murder innocent people"

I stand by that. Many innocent civilians died in the Iraq and Afghan wars.

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:28 AM

Seems to me after all we have done for Muslims in Kuwait, Kosovo, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan, etc...they should love us.

Believe it or not, many do.

But there are also many that don't. How would you feel if the Iraqi government sent airplanes/drones over here and your family became collateral damage?

Sierra

07-15-2016, 09:28 AM

While it may or may not be interesting...

That's moving the goal posts from the original post blaming Bush and Blair

Seems to me after all we have done for Muslims in Kuwait, Kosovo, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan, etc...they should love us.

It is merely recognizing the historical reality that our meddling around the world has had negative consequences. And this is particularly true for the last 50 years, in that part of the world. Sometimes you have to move a post or two (or take some blinders off) in order to get the bigger picture. Hell, read one of my previous posts--I went back to 711AD! ;)

Tony T

07-15-2016, 09:29 AM

I stand by that. Many innocent civilians died in the Iraq and Afghan wars.

You shouldn't.

Obama continued the war, do you also classify him as a "terrorist and religious fanatic who murders innocent people"?

fa63

07-15-2016, 09:32 AM

You shouldn't.

Obama continued the war, do you also classify him as a "terrorist and religious fanatic who murders innocent people"?

Just a terrorist.

I should also clarify; I don't blame any individual president. I should be saying "Bush administration, Obama adminstration" etc. After all, this is a team effort.