Please school me on this Power Meter thing

[weisan]

So, out of curiosity, I got an older set of powertap wheels recently and I used them for the first time this morning during our group ride. I paired it with my Garmin Edge 800 to show the wattage numbers on screen.

First off, let me just clarify a few things.

I don't race. And I don't train. I just enjoyed riding my bike.

So why get a power meter you may ask?

Like I said, I was curious and I am a gadget junkie who likes to try things out.

I would appreciate if folks who have used power meters as part of their training regime enlighten me on how they analyze power numbers and what programs they use to crunch or make sense of those numbers.

[weisan]

Oh oh...while we are at it, I should add a bit of observation with my first-time use this morning.

So I joined a 50 mile group ride this morning and everything was working fine until we came to our mid-point rest stop. I stopped the timer on my Garmin 800, went inside the convenience store to get something. Came out about 10 minutes later and departed with my group. I started my Garmin timer again and this time I noticed that the "power" reading doesn't register anything, I went over to the settings to make sure that the powermeter is still set to ON, and it was. It was a windy day and I was trying to keep up with my group so I didn't bother to do anything until about five miles down the road, I decided to try something different to see if I can get the power to work again. I turned off the Garmin completely and turned it back on, almost immediately, it detected the powertap and started registering wattage numbers again, it also showed a message that I haven't seen before, it says "Multiple Power Meters detected" or something to that effect...I clicked ok and just continued without doing anything, and it works fine again for the rest of the ride which is another 15 miles away from the finish. So, total distance was 50 miles and maybe 5 miles where the Garmin was acting weird, other than that, flawless.

[makoti]

For starters, the numbers don't mean much unless you've done an ftp test. Then you can relate them to your levels. I don't race, either, but I find a meter helpful for getting a useful workout. Now, if you really just ride to ride, not sure how much benefit you'd get from one & the test you need to do isn't pleasant.

[weisan]

makoti pal, thanks for your inputs. I will at least suffer through a ftp test in order to safeguard my investment. :D

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-threshold-power

[weisan]

I guess my question is more on what and how YOU personally use your power meter and power stats to achieve whatever goals you may have. Don't worry about me. :)

[shovelhd]

You should get the Training and Racing with a Power Meter book. It's definitely not a single forum post topic. I don't train for racing anymore but I still like having the data on board during rides and for post ride analysis. There are various options for that ranging from Golden Cheetah (free) to Cycling Analytics, WKO4, Training Peaks, and (ugh) Strava.

[weisan]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, Shovel pal.

[weisan]

Just downloaded the Golden Cheetah software and uploaded today's fit file. It says I was in Active Recovery mode for 87% of the ride. :D

[Andy sti]

Just downloaded the Golden Cheetah software and uploaded today's fit file. It says I was in Active Recovery mode for 87% of the ride. :D

Ha, it can't know that though unless you've entered a specific FTP value which you don't know yet. Maybe check what value is entered.

[Andy sti]

I train and race and use a PM. I'm in my mid forties and don't want to mess around with my training. My PM allows me to get the most out of my time. I can train very specifically and target my intervals to power levels. I don't wast time guessing if I'm going hard enough or too hard. Sure it may take a little bit of "fun" out of riding but I enjoy racing and doing well. Plus my coach gives me some fun rides to do too. For me the power meter has been a huge plus for my training. If I wasn't racing I don't think I'd use it. FTP, TSS and CTL wouldn't matter.

[Dead Man]

Garmin seems to automatically make 200 watts your FPT till you manually plug a numero in there

OP.. Pow is great tool for tracking strength gains, and competing to your limit without blowing your load before the finish or selling yourself short. So if you track your FPT you can track your improvement .. Or if you strava and want to move up on segments or even kype thee some KOMs.. Pow will be useful

I guess it could also be useful doing non-competitive group things like pulling a paceline, but possibly not... I generally just use speed and perceived exertion for that, and nobody ever complains.

[Ti Designs]

For starters, the numbers don't mean much unless you've done an ftp test.

There are a few assumptions people make about what they think they can just do. This is the second one. The first one is effectively pedaling a bicycle, I've found that maybe 5% of the population learns how to push the pedals in the right direction by themselves, the rest borrow a skill set from walking. As the bike masks the problem, 19 out of 20 assume it's a natural skill and do nothing to change how they pedal. I'm OK with that, as long as working on my own pedal stroke puts me into the top 5%...

The second assumption is that doing a time trial is another one of those natural skills. I've looked at a number of 20 minute FTP tests, I'm going to have to disagree with that one. Doing a 20 minute time trial means setting a tempo within the first minute, and sticking with that tempo the whole time. here's the problem: Your perceived effort is going to seem to be too low at the start and far too high at the end, your heart rate is going to climb along the effort, but your power should stay level. In the days before power meters, the best time trial riders would practice this, doing short time trials and learning to set the tempo from the very start. Power meters have made that easier, trainers with an ergometer mode are perhaps the best learning tool (in my opinion), but there's still a learning curve. On the bright side, diagnostics of how well you time trial are better than ever, just look at power over time. If it looks like a level line, you're testing for FTP. If it loos like a roller coaster, the number you're basing the rest of your training on is wrong, so...

[weisan]

Very interesting inputs so far.
Appreciate pals who contributed to the discussions.

Again, I am interested in what folks use it for themselves...not necessarily how it applies to me or how I intend to use my power meter. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[ripvanrando]

I use XERT, TrainingPeaks, and have messed around with GoldenCHeetah.

I like XERT for its ability to identify 1 hour power level and others and how these levels can be used to tailor an achievable workout regimen. I like TrainingPeaks for how chronic and acute fatigue are modeled (especially ability to set exponential decay time constant). (My ATL and CTL are almost off the chart right now and am taking some rest). I have found measuring my blood lactate levels are just as good (but easier) at identifying FTP as a TT effort. The heart rates for various zones in either program are totally useless for me. W/O knowing your zones, a PM has limited use in my view.

I am sure I use my power meter differently than some riders

On single day long rides (13-20 hours say), I keep my maximum efforts to Tempo with limited threshold levels unless unavoidable like steep hills.

On multi-day long rides, I keep my maximum efforts to upper Z2 with Tempo efforts limited to hills only. I aim for a particular normalized output level to maximize fat conversion.

On easy recovery days noodling around I keep efforts to Z1 and lower Z2. For me living in hilly terrain, it takes some discipline not to go too hard on easy days and the PM keeps me on track. My routine riding follows a polarized approach, so, I do a lot of riding in this zone.

During intervals (every fifth session) I use the PM to calibrate my output to the right level (for me)

In really hot temperatures, I have a pretty good idea of what power outputs are sustainable for me and I use the PM to keep those levels down unless I want to overheat. The PM acts as a manual governor. A PM combined with HRM is helpful to identify issues during very cold or very hot rides. For instance, if it is cold out and your HR rises but your power meter output lowers and your perceived effort is the same or higher? Time to get warm.

[weisan]

Very cool! Thanks Rando pal.

[Tandem Rider]

It's either a tool or an electronic geegaw, depending on what you do with it. By itself it won't make you any faster than a speedometer will. There has to be a frame of reference, there has to be a plan, then you have to execute the plan.

Personally, it makes it possible to train more efficiently time wise. I can't commit to riding 20-30 hours a week anymore. I was able to podium at Natz on less than 10 hours per week by being efficient. If I don't have a goal and a plan, I tend to ignore it and just use RPE.

[carpediemracing]

I guess my question is more on what and how YOU personally use your power meter and power stats to achieve whatever goals you may have. Don't worry about me. :)

I'm probably an outlier to the powermeter user experience. I normally don't train with power, I don't race with power. Meaning I don't use power as a guideline for my training or racing. For me power is like horsepower in a car/engine. Yes, there are some optimal rev ranges for my power but beyond that I let it go.

In 2015 I did VO2Max intervals (part of a study that I learned about here at PL), the first time I did intervals since the 80s. I hate making hard sustained efforts in training and usually sit up when I try an interval. I felt insanely strong in races and won my first race in a while in the middle of the VO2Max intervals. My fitness declined shortly after but I basically coasted on that March/April work until August, winning a number of field sprints and placing 3rd three times.

For me power is two things. One is to verify that I'm not going to be able to turn pro any time soon. Verified, way too easily. My FTP is in the 200-220w range. I managed to earn an upgrade to Cat 2 at the 220w range, and win a race shortly before testing at 218w. So 220w for me is enough to win Cat 3 races. I'm 75-150w short of the racers around me. The better Cat 2s and 1s are realistically pushing 400w FTP. One guy does repeated 5 min intervals at 485w. I can barely do one 5 min interval at 280w, and if I want to do three intervals I have to keep it at about 240-250w.

The other is I analyze data after the fact. I love looking at graphs and lining them up with the work I did in a race (video clips mainly, but also terrain/route related).

"Oh man I was so blown at the end of the race I sat up with 2 turns to go."
Oh look at that, I did 587w for the 60 seconds before I sat up. I broke my record by almost 100w. No wonder I was blown, I worked harder than I ever did for 60s. (Actual 2009 race).

"I bet I did at least 1200w in that jump to win the sprint."
Oh wow, I barely hit 1100w and sustained well under 1000w during it. (Actual 2010 race (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqrPW4FWyQg)). Also one of the hardest races I've ever done; avg was 187w. My teammate who led me out avg 287w.

"Wow that was such a hard race, I was going to drop out so many times, I'm so glad I hung in there."
Hm. I averaged only 156w for that race?! (Actual 2015 race (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClymNj6e9dE) where I got 3rd) I could have sworn it was about 200w (for me 200w is usually the breaking point in a race, above that I'm shelled or at the very least I can't sprint).

"That was such a tough last 30s, I must have been crushing it!"
Hm. Max power never broke 1000w, avg for last 30s was 609w. (My 2015 win (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbg4YluM6HE)). Also to illustrate a point - the first time I looked at my powermeter was about 10 minutes from the end of a 33 mile race, so I'd raced over an hour without looking down once. I looked down and realized it wasn't on - I turned it on and got about 13 minutes of data, 3 minutes was the cool down lap. So I basically don't look at the computer during the race, just sanity checks to make sure it's on.

etc etc.

So for me it's a recording of what I did and I can look at the data and see how I did compared to other events.

[shovelhd]

Ed, with all due respect that's not how I've done 20 minute tests. The target is 95% sustainable all out. I go out at 90% for two minutes, ramp it a little more, then flat out for the last minute. That method has been accurate and repeatable for me.

These days I estimate my FTP from long climbs. It correlates well with HR and RPE. I use the PM to keep me in the zone on climbs, and for metering my pace and effort along with road speed on the Wednesday Night Worlds hammerfest ride. On those rides I'm in the front group with young pros and Cat1's so it doesn't take much to pop me off the back. Having the metrics in front of me helps to keep that from happening. I can meter my turn at the front depending how I have recovered. For that alone it's worth having it. That and once you have power it's hard to ride without it.

[chiasticon]

So for me it's a recording of what I did and I can look at the data and see how I did compared to other events.pretty much the same with me. it's mostly a way to analyze my riding after the fact. I don't really train with it. it's also a way to gauge my efforts during a ride though. the obvious example is climbing but also as it gets pretty windy here sometimes my favorite use for them is to help keep a steady pace and not blow up when riding into a nasty headwind.

it's for sure most useful to do an ftp test so you know your limits and such but honestly if you're not gonna train with it, that's not 100% necessary. you'll quickly get a feel for where you're at and what 200 versus 400 watts feels like and then be able to make assessments like: "oh I'm climbing at 250 right now, this is only a fifteen minute climb, I can keep that up..." and then maybe next time you try averaging 260 or something. eventually you'll find your limits...

they're fun and useful, for sure. but I do kinda hate 'em sometimes too.

[weisan]

I enjoyed reading the last few posts, thank you.

[makoti]

The second assumption is that doing a time trial is another one of those natural skills. I've looked at a number of 20 minute FTP tests, I'm going to have to disagree with that one. Doing a 20 minute time trial means setting a tempo within the first minute, and sticking with that tempo the whole time. here's the problem: Your perceived effort is going to seem to be too low at the start and far too high at the end, your heart rate is going to climb along the effort, but your power should stay level. In the days before power meters, the best time trial riders would practice this, doing short time trials and learning to set the tempo from the very start. Power meters have made that easier, trainers with an ergometer mode are perhaps the best learning tool (in my opinion), but there's still a learning curve. On the bright side, diagnostics of how well you time trial are better than ever, just look at power over time. If it looks like a level line, you're testing for FTP. If it loos like a roller coaster, the number you're basing the rest of your training on is wrong, so...

You can disagree all you want (not that I can figure out what you disagree with from that), but that doesn't change the fact that without a baseline that is relevant to Weisan, the numbers he gets are just numbers and the best way to do that is with an FTP test. Otherwise, his 85% of the time in active recovery may not be. There are other ways, but the test is pretty tried & true, quick & dirty. Yes, it's important to do the test right to get good numbers & I agree that inside is the way to go, at least for the first one.

Now, to answer your question Weisan... the thing I think a power meter is best for is keeping you honest. It allows you to see when you drop out of or go over a training range. Basically, it keeps you from making hard days easy & easy days hard. Keeps you honest. I like it for days when I want to work on endurance, which aren't hard days, just steady. The PM tells me at a glance if I'm in my range or slacking (the usual problem). You could do this with a HR monitor or just by feel, but a PM is better because watts don't care if it's hilly or hot or windy. You may go faster or slower at the same wattage, but the effort is pretty much the same (the same number of watts hurt more uphill than on a flat for me, but they are the same).
Hope this helps. Enjoy it. I was very skeptical when I got mine (a PT). I have come to think of it as the best training tool I have. And I do not race. I just want to stave off the "slow" part of "old & slow" as long as I can. The "old" part I'm stuck with. ;)

[weisan]

Thank you Makoti pal

[shovelhd]

Along the lines of Makoti's last post, my PC8 (and Late model Garmins do as well) can display real time TSS. I've used TSS to keep me in the prescribed zone. For example, to be a recovery ride, for me it has to be under 60TSS. I can vary the ride itself, within reason, trading effort for duration. Again, within reason. TSS is derived from power.

[makoti]

Along the lines of Makoti's last post, my PC8 (and Late model Garmins do as well) can display real time TSS. I've used TSS to keep me in the prescribed zone. For example, to be a recovery ride, for me it has to be under 60TSS. I can vary the ride itself, within reason, trading effort for duration. Again, within reason. TSS is derived from power.

I never thought to watch TSS. I usually watch current power, on short intervals 3s, long ones 10s avgs. I thought NP would be a good metric to use, but it doesn't seem to give me a useful number (useful at the moment, anyway). It was suggested that I watch both Avg & Normalized power and try to keep them close. Did that for yesterdays endurance workout & kept them within 20w of each other. Just rode without a plan today, and they were 50+w apart. Interesting, but I'm not sure if that tells me yesterday was very consistent or that today very erratic.

[ripvanrando]

Training Stress Scores (TSS), Acute Training Level (ATL), Chronic Training Level (CTL), and Training Stress Balance (TSB) are metrics to help monitor fitness, form, and fatigue levels during training and especially when preparing for a special event or race. Training Peaks uses these terms and other applications have similar metrics. It would be a mistake to use another rider's numbers even if you make more power. My FTP is only 270 watts but my chronic training load is well over 300. OP might determine an FTP of say 350 watts but a TSS of say 80 might be too much load at any given time. I have found that if I am not quite feeling up to a hard work out and if my training stress balance is maybe at the edge, it is best to take an easy day. without a PM and analysing the data, doing a harder session than indicated is pretty easy to do or I should say overdo. I still think how you feel, mood, and sleep are great metrics and that a PM sort of helps keep you on the right track assuming the training plan itself is correct. A lousy training plan won't be helped by a PM.

[Ti Designs]

Ed, with all due respect that's not how I've done 20 minute tests. The target is 95% sustainable all out. I go out at 90% for two minutes, ramp it a little more, then flat out for the last minute. That method has been accurate and repeatable for me.

How many years have you been in this sport? What you described is what you've learned - increasing effort level to keep power even over time. Could you have done that when you first started? The funny thing here is that the power meter is the best gauge for how accurate the test was, but nobody is looking at that data ('cause it would punch a lot of holes in the first chapter of the Power Meter book). The real strange part to me is why ergometer mode with an electronically controlled trainer isn't used more often? Set the wattage for your best guess, go at it for an hour (sounds like such fun) and gauge the results. It's 100 times more accurate than the number you'll come to on the road.

[makoti]

The real strange part to me is why ergometer mode with an electronically controlled trainer isn't used more often? Set the wattage for your best guess, go at it for an hour (sounds like such fun) and gauge the results.

Let's see... because your result is the number of watts you programmed in and not what you are capable putting out?

[Splash]

......trainers with an ergometer mode are perhaps the best learning tool (in my opinion).....

My trainer has ergo mode and I sometimes wonder how effective Ergo training is when I perform my FTP tests in non-ergo mode?

When I perform my FTP tests in non-ergo mode, it's really different and I feel like i need to re-train my technique to do a good job of this FTP test.

What negative aspects exists for ERG MODE training with relation to riding outdoors?


Splash

[Ti Designs]

Let's see... because your result is the number of watts you programmed in and not what you are capable putting out?

So you have a hypothesis (the number of watts you set), a process with some level of accuracy, and a conclusion (too little, about right, too much). If the outcome shows that the wattage was too high or too low you adjust the numbers and run the experiment again.

The alternative for those who haven't yet learned how to hold a wattage level, is to run an inaccurate test, and then base all of your training on that. The selling point is that you only have to do it once (I say selling point because it's how the program is marketed. Read any book about training with power and you'll see the same thing - it's a one shot deal). The disadvantage is that the number is probably wrong, often by a fair amount. But here's the thing - if you're doing this test you have a power meter, so you can tell how accurate or inaccurate it was.

When I perform my FTP tests in non-ergo mode, it's really different and I feel like i need to re-train my technique to do a good job of this FTP test.

If you could hold a perfectly steady wattage output, they would feel the same. The trainer holds the wattage by increasing the resistance as the cadence or rear wheel slows - that's the only input it has to work with. It's the down side of this method, and you could argue that the changes in resistance will cause fatigue and alter the final output. In a perfect world the rider will learn how to hold a power output within a tight range, and ergometer mode won't be needed (or noticed), but at the start we sometimes need devices to take the place of skill sets we don't yet have.

You don't still wear diapers, do you? You see where I'm going with this...

[Splash]

Thanks

So, erg mode is great way of conditioning the body at specific wattage levels.

Splash

[makoti]

Thanks

So, erg mode is great way of conditioning the body at specific wattage levels.

Splash

Yes, it is a great way to CONDITION your body. It is not a great way to TEST your body to find out what it can do.

[austex]

Wei pal, since you're here in Austin, the UT kinesiology folks can do a full-on work up of your cycling fitness in their lab, for a fee. Buddy of mine did that a few years back, noted that he'd never felt so completely drained after a bike workout, but got a nice multi-page report with graphs and everything!

[benb]

Ed has a great point, this is the first year I've had a power meter and his point is indeed mostly glossed over in most of the texts.

You still need to do the FTP test if you're going to use a PM as it's the best you've got but if you're doing it every 6-8 weeks or so like you're supposed to (I agree this is glossed over but it is mentioned.) than you will quickly see what Ed is talking about and realize that not every one of your test efforts or training efforts are created equal and it's not always your fault or within your power to improve.

You really need a steady climb with no downhills that takes you >= 20min to climb and light steady winds, no traffic controls, and 0 to minimal auto traffic to get a good FTP test IMO. If it's a steep enough climb, you also need to make sure you have gearing low enough that you can pace correctly all the way up too. I don't really have that near me. I suspect my FTP is usually set a little low as a result. There are so many other factors too, your FTP is just not the same every day, I think the temperature has an effect and it obviously changes day to day with fatigue levels. But a single stop sign, traffic light, a car pulling out in front of you, a few modest downhills, a shifty wind, etc.. can all mess up your test pretty fast.

But if you've got the PM just go do the test when you're fresh as it's still an improvement over not knowing anything at all.

Personally tracking TSS and all that has been the most valuable for me and that doesn't necessarily require having the most accurate FTP #. Although now I think the hrTSS stuff in Training Peaks would also suffice for me. I feel like the TSS numbers make it way easier to plan out the correct amount of riding in a given period.

[BSUdude]

I agree that whether or not you use erg mode on a trainer, you may more may not get it right the first time. It depends on how well you know your body. But doing it non-erg, then analyzing the effort is going to provide better feedback to improve upon than guessing on erg mode. If you guess too low non-erg and you have more to give after 10 minutes you up the wattage. If you guess too high non-erg and are dying after 5 minutes you back off, maybe too much, then push more, whatever, til 20 minutes is over. If you guess wrong on erg you either go too easy for 20 minutes (which doesn't teach you how to ride hard for 20 minutes) or you go too hard til you blow up then the interval is over and you haven't learned as much.

After you've done your non-erg test you go back to the lab (golden cheetah, WKO+, trainingpeaks, whatever) and give it a look. We can all agree a flat line is what you want. So say you had a test where you were dying at 5 minutes and had to back off for 5 minutes, then increase again for the last 10 minutes. You take that knowledge of RPE and look at the results. Oh, I was 280 watts for the first 5, then I had to back down to 255 for the 2nd 5, then I started to ramp up from 260-270 at the last 10. So now you know that your FTP is probably in the 95% of 260-270 ballpark, which is better than if you set your erg for 280 and blew up. That is close enough to start a structured interval regimen for 4-6 weeks until the next test.

See here:

http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201869584

Also RE testing indoors vs on road...you should test on whichever you train the most on...for many people the number they can hit on the trainer is different from what they can hit on the road.

[benb]

It's not even about you overdoing it and having to back off.

A tight corner that you have to coast through or a car that pulls out in front of you forcing you to stop pedaling and hit the brakes can drop your result by 10-20w just like that. A downhill in the middle of the test course can drop it more than that too. You'll have to go really hard to make that back up and then you end up in yo-yo territory.

[makoti]

It's not even about you overdoing it and having to back off.

A tight corner that you have to coast through or a car that pulls out in front of you forcing you to stop pedaling and hit the brakes can drop your result by 10-20w just like that. A downhill in the middle of the test course can drop it more than that too. You'll have to go really hard to make that back up and then you end up in yo-yo territory.

If you have that many possible distractions, you are trying to test on the wrong roads. This is also why indoors is better to start with. Once you get better using a PM (able to hold wattage more steadily), you can start doing the test on a suitable road. Or not. For the reasons you mentioned, I always do mine inside.
But, really, all this is way off of what Weisan's question was - How do YOU use a PM.

[weisan]

Makoti pal, it's all good.

[benb]

If you have that many possible distractions, you are trying to test on the wrong roads. This is also why indoors is better to start with. Once you get better using a PM (able to hold wattage more steadily), you can start doing the test on a suitable road. Or not. For the reasons you mentioned, I always do mine inside.
But, really, all this is way off of what Weisan's question was - How do YOU use a PM.

Well everyone uses them with knowledge of their FTP. Part of my point is in a lot of areas you might need to travel to "the right roads" for an FTP test. 20 minutes at threshold for me is very hard to do without passing through at least one town center. Figuring out where to do the test is an art. One more challenge to using a power meter.

[makoti]

Well everyone uses them with knowledge of their FTP. Part of my point is in a lot of areas you might need to travel to "the right roads" for an FTP test. 20 minutes at threshold for me is very hard to do without passing through at least one town center. Figuring out where to do the test is an art. One more challenge to using a power meter.

Yeah, I'd have to travel to find roads open/steady inclined/flat enough to do a test, so the basement works well. It's repeatable with very little fuss. You can do the test as two 12min efforts, also. I've seen it done as 8min's, too. You just do a different bit of math to get your number.

[Dead Man]

Anybody ever FTP test in the velodrome?

[deechee]

When I was training regularly, I used TrainingPeaks (the downloaded version; I don't care for sharing my data) to basically store my data. One of the things that motivated me most was the CTL (Chronic Training Load) chart. Basically it sums up your training load over the last 42 days. Its nice to see the chart slowly go up (if you're training properly) and by comparing the Acute load (ATL) over the last 7 days, you can either keep pushing yourself or give yourself a break knowing you've worked really hard over the last month.

https://vanmieghem.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/projectedctl_atl_tsb.png?w=640&h=502

That said, right now I just use the PM to keep me honest. I have a baby at home so my rides are limited to my commutes and the rare weekend ride. Its a great way to maximize your workouts with limited time. I can really tire myself out in 30 minutes without going overboard (ie. not being able to do baby duties when I get home.)

For me, doing a CP30 (30 minute critical power) test every 5 weeks was very helpful, but I've also done seasons without doing them. The more data you have, the more accurate a picture you can get.

[weisan]

Thank you Dee pal!

[54ny77]

weisan thanks for this post because i have a pm wheel as well (it came with the bike), and have yet to use it. it's only been 3 years, why rush?!? one of these days i'll figure out how to use it, along with the garmin....which has been sitting in a box for about 5 years... :banana:

[unterhausen]

love to know if you end up using it regularly. I have a power meter on my trainer, but not on a bike. I'm making steps towards getting faster, but I'm not sure how seriously I want to take things. Although my most recent road wheels would have featured a powertap if they still offered silver hubs.

[Ti Designs]

I agree that whether or not you use erg mode on a trainer, you may or may not get it right the first time. It depends on how well you know your body. But doing it non-erg, then analyzing the effort is going to provide better feedback to improve upon than guessing on erg mode. If you guess too low non-erg and you have more to give after 10 minutes you up the wattage. If you guess too high non-erg and are dying after 5 minutes you back off, maybe too much, then push more, whatever, til 20 minutes is over. If you guess wrong on erg you either go too easy for 20 minutes (which doesn't teach you how to ride hard for 20 minutes) or you go too hard til you blow up then the interval is over and you haven't learned as much.

Isn't there a pill you can take?

You seem to be looking for a simple, one shot answer to this. There isn't one. In your non-erg scenario the rider makes corrections along the way. By the definition of this test, that's a failure. The erg solution is the scientific process, you don't expect success the first time, you expect to be closer the next time. By letter the machine hold the wattage, you can trust the output.

I come from an old-school training background, learning how to time trial was always a matter of learning your own body well enough to set a tempo in the first minute or two. We did a lot of short time trials to gain this ability, but we used it in racing all the time. I had a teammate who was the best climber around, but he couldn't react to those sudden surges, so he found himself off the back a lot. My job, knowing that the race ended with a climb, was to go back and tow him back in. Getting back there was easy, getting him back in wasn't. Coming across the gap too quickly I risk losing him or blowing up myself. Hanging back there at the same speed as the group is certain death. I had to look up the road, pick out a landmark the group just passed and count seconds until I got there - that's my time gap. From there I had to keep that gap coming down, which is a really fine line.

Power meters change that game. Knowing your FTP for different lengths of time, you could just use the power meter as a limiter and go after them (if you were alone - towing someone and keeping them on your wheel changes the rules a bike, you'll need to back it down on hills (unless you have a teammate like mine), and you're going to want to push it harder going down hill 'cause they're in your draft). That only works if your numbers are accurate, which is where erg mode helps. My point is that after a while you won't need erg mode, and doing an FTP test in erg mode will seem the same as a steady resistance. Use the tools to guide you at first, but the real goal is to reduce your dependency on them.

The funny thing is that while I'm not a huge fan of power meter training, I was using a power meter decades ago. Tunturi made something called the Pro Ergometer, it was a purely mechanical ergometer that used resistance pads against a flywheel on a swing arm. The cheap units used a spring with a plastic scale, the pro used a weigh on a swing arm. The system was calibrated by gravity, so it was pretty accurate.

I can't find a single picture of that thing on the inter web...

[makoti]

The erg solution is the scientific process, you don't expect success the first time, you expect to be closer the next time. By letter the machine hold the wattage, you can trust the output.

No. Just no.
http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201869584-Testing-on-an-ERG-Trainer
"If an electronic trainer is left in Erg mode, any test workouts won't assess FTP improvement because the workout will scale the assessment interval(s) to the FTP listed in your profile."
It's a great way to train. It's a bad way to test.

[Ti Designs]

No. Just no.
http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201869584-Testing-on-an-ERG-Trainer
"If an electronic trainer is left in Erg mode, any test workouts won't assess FTP improvement because the workout will scale the assessment interval(s) to the FTP listed in your profile."


Yet another reason to hate electronics with so many controls that it's impossible to know who or what is controlling any given parameter...

Each rider's Target Power is based on your profile's FTP and Erg mode will set your trainer's resistance based solely on this number. When you change that number following an FTP test, your electronic trainer will adjust your intervals accordingly.

Here's where the definition of "ergometer mode" and TrainerRoad's use of ergometer mode differ. In order to test, you need control of that number, which is to say simply ergometer mode without anything else changing that on you.

[Nick Kanwetz]

No. Just no.
http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201869584-Testing-on-an-ERG-Trainer
"If an electronic trainer is left in Erg mode, any test workouts won't assess FTP improvement because the workout will scale the assessment interval(s) to the FTP listed in your profile."
It's a great way to train. It's a bad way to test.

When you're training on an ERG trainer using TrainerRoad, we'll automatically switch you out of ERG control, allowing you to give your all out effort for the duration of the training interval(s). Woohoo! Problem solved. ;-)

Hope this helps!

Community Manager at TrainerRoad (https://www.trainerroad.com/how-it-works?utm_source=forums&utm_medium=forum&utm_content=How%20it%20Works&utm_campaign=forums")

[makoti]

When you're training on an ERG trainer using TrainerRoad, we'll automatically switch you out of ERG control, allowing you to give your all out effort for the duration of the training interval(s). Woohoo! Problem solved. ;-)

Hope this helps!

Community Manager at TrainerRoad (https://www.trainerroad.com/how-it-works?utm_source=forums&utm_medium=forum&utm_content=How%20it%20Works&utm_campaign=forums")

Anybody new to PM's, wondering what the proper way to do an FTP test is, just let TrainerRoad do it for you. Thank you, Nick. It still won't get through to some folks, though.

[Ti Designs]

.

[shovelhd]

I would not suggest doing a 20 minute test on a trainer, and definitely not in erg mode. First, you will have to derate the calculated power by 5-10%. I used 7%. Because of this, your HR/RPE/Power equation will be off. RPE is critical in racing but may or may not be important in recreational riding. Also, erg mode forces pedal motion artificially. Good for developing efficient power, not good for testing. Part of learning how to go pretty much all out for 20 minutes is learning how to take advantage of the micro rests from the small undulations in the road surface. They help you stay in the 95% zone. Nobody should underestimate how difficult it is to truly go at 95% for 20 minutes. If you don't feel like you've been run over by a truck, you didn't go hard enough. The ride out to the start of my test course takes about 15 minutes, perfect for a proper warmup. I've had it take over an hour to get back.

My test course is a flat to rolling road alongside a river that is used for a club TT. The wind is consistently out of the west/northwest. One thing to make sure that you do is be consistent. Use the same course, same equipment, and the same conditions if possible.

[Splash]

If I ever get a PM for my outdoor bike, I would like to use the STRAVA APPlications for utilising Power.

https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/understanding-strava-how-to-use-suffer-score-fitness-and-freshness-weighted-average-power-intensity-training-load-and-power-curve.html#L8tho3bbAH1aW4lA.97


Some other good / fun clips on PM usage for outdoor rides:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntenBguibqo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrAdfsomPSc (note - reference made to FTP from 10.53)



Splash

[Ti Designs]

Also, erg mode forces pedal motion artificially. Good for developing efficient power, not good for testing. Part of learning how to go pretty much all out for 20 minutes is learning how to take advantage of the micro rests from the small undulations in the road surface. They help you stay in the 95% zone.

It's pretty clear (to me) that you learned how to time trial before you got a power meter. Taking advantage of the little undulations means keeping the velocity consistent, which is the fastest way to time trial (wind resistance is exponential, it takes far more energy to go 1MPH faster than is saved by going 1MPH slower, so holding your average speed is the most efficient way), but if you look at the data you'll see it's far from what an FTP test should be.

[benb]

If I ever get a PM for my outdoor bike, I would like to use the STRAVA APPlications for utilising Power.

Splash

Strava is pretty terrible for power.. they don't have most of the accepted metrics and the ones they have are weird and/or get recalculated to have values which often look incorrect.

e.x. No Normalized Power on Strava, The PM will say your average power is X and Strava will decide to recalculate and tell you it's Y, etc, etc.. they don't use TSS they use something else that they made up, etc.. of those the TSS thing is probably the least concern to me, Strava's value might be fine if you use it consistently.

[makoti]

It's pretty clear (to me) that you learned how to time trial before you got a power meter. Taking advantage of the little undulations means keeping the velocity consistent, which is the fastest way to time trial (wind resistance is exponential, it takes far more energy to go 1MPH faster than is saved by going 1MPH slower, so holding your average speed is the most efficient way), but if you look at the data you'll see it's far from what an FTP test should be.

You really don't understand the test at all, do you?

[BSUdude]

I would not suggest doing a 20 minute test on a trainer, and definitely not in erg mode. First, you will have to derate the calculated power by 5-10%. I used 7%. Because of this, your HR/RPE/Power equation will be off. RPE is critical in racing but may or may not be important in recreational riding. Also, erg mode forces pedal motion artificially. Good for developing efficient power, not good for testing. Part of learning how to go pretty much all out for 20 minutes is learning how to take advantage of the micro rests from the small undulations in the road surface. They help you stay in the 95% zone. Nobody should underestimate how difficult it is to truly go at 95% for 20 minutes. If you don't feel like you've been run over by a truck, you didn't go hard enough. The ride out to the start of my test course takes about 15 minutes, perfect for a proper warmup. I've had it take over an hour to get back.

My test course is a flat to rolling road alongside a river that is used for a club TT. The wind is consistently out of the west/northwest. One thing to make sure that you do is be consistent. Use the same course, same equipment, and the same conditions if possible.

Technically you're going at 105-106% of actual FTP if you're doing an all out 20 minute test...thus why 95% of the 20 minute number is the translation to your 60 minute number.

2x 95% of FTP for 20min is just a good FTP workout & shouldn't result in the same level of dry heaving as a 20min test... :eek::p

[ripvanrando]

I find that my indoor power levels are lower than those taken outdoors. I suppose I could buy a better fan but I have too much junk already. Another point worth considering is power meter accuracy. A PM on a dedicated trainer probably won't indicate the same power levels as a PM on the bike. Probably. Not 100% I do my tests on one specific pm that I have because of 4% divergence between them.

[54ny77]

does chain lube affect power? if so, what's the best chain lube when doing ftp test?

:butt:

[Splash]

I have read that ftp is not as important or as relevant compared to pmax for 1, 5, 10 and 20 min when outdoors using a power meter.

Rationale being that because the ftp is supposed to ideally represent 95% effort for 1 hour, many cyclists never get a chance to experience the required terrain for this effort on a consistent basis. Cyclists also spend the majority of their time in the pmax 1min, 5min, 10min and 20min range when watts matter the most.

Keen to read your thoughts on above.

Splash

[shovelhd]

Technically you're going at 105-106% of actual FTP if you're doing an all out 20 minute test...thus why 95% of the 20 minute number is the translation to your 60 minute number.

2x 95% of FTP for 20min is just a good FTP workout & shouldn't result in the same level of dry heaving as a 20min test... :eek::p

I never said 95% of FTP. I said 95% effort. Big difference.

[shovelhd]

It's pretty clear (to me) that you learned how to time trial before you got a power meter. Taking advantage of the little undulations means keeping the velocity consistent, which is the fastest way to time trial (wind resistance is exponential, it takes far more energy to go 1MPH faster than is saved by going 1MPH slower, so holding your average speed is the most efficient way), but if you look at the data you'll see it's far from what an FTP test should be.

Your first assumption is correct. I started racing when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I was never a good TT rider but that never stopped me from trying. I was a breakaway specialist.

Speed does change a small amount during those micro rests. The measure of a consistent test, for me, is having AP=NP. If I'm within 1-2 watts I did well.

[superbowlpats]

Technically you're going at 105-106% of actual FTP if you're doing an all out 20 minute test...thus why 95% of the 20 minute number is the translation to your 60 minute number.

2x 95% of FTP for 20min is just a good FTP workout & shouldn't result in the same level of dry heaving as a 20min test... :eek::p

Interesting. last night did our 8 mile TT. AP was 265W and IF was 1.07 so validates your 105%-106% of actual FTP (I use 250W as my FTP). for me the 8 miles takes just under 20 minutes but close enough for gov't work and calculating FTP. I for one completely fail at the Computrainer/Trainerroad FTP test. A few minutes after it changes from ERG mode into Slope mode my legs and mind become a puddle of goo. I think my problem is more mental. :crap:

My NP was 275 so a VI of 1.04. Not horrible but should be better. I still go out too hard despite having the numbers right in front of my face. :(

[BSUdude]

I never said 95% of FTP. I said 95% effort. Big difference.

What is 95% effort?

[BSUdude]

Interesting. last night did our 8 mile TT. AP was 265W and IF was 1.07 so validates your 105%-106% of actual FTP (I use 250W as my FTP). for me the 8 miles takes just under 20 minutes but close enough for gov't work and calculating FTP. I for one completely fail at the Computrainer/Trainerroad FTP test. A few minutes after it changes from ERG mode into Slope mode my legs and mind become a puddle of goo. I think my problem is more mental. :crap:

My NP was 275 so a VI of 1.04. Not horrible but should be better. I still go out too hard despite having the numbers right in front of my face. :(

The thing is, even though you didn't nail exactly a flat line, you still obtained good enough info to base training from. The narrowest wattage window that gets worked in training is FTP. Say you are looking to do an FTP workout that is (4) 10-minute intervals...you will probably choose a 15-20 watt range that is something like 240-255 watts in your case. Even if you are wrong and your FTP is actually somewhere a few watts above or below 250, the target window would be the same. If you do the workout once or twice and you're hitting the high side all the time you know you can just bump your range up a few watts and keep going. Other power zones that get worked have an even wider range so getting down to the exact watt for FTP just isn't necessary.

I am with you on inside vs outside. I avoid inside riding unless absolutely necessary. And when I do it rarely contains intervals.

[BSUdude]

I have read that ftp is not as important or as relevant compared to pmax for 1, 5, 10 and 20 min when outdoors using a power meter.

Rationale being that because the ftp is supposed to ideally represent 95% effort for 1 hour, many cyclists never get a chance to experience the required terrain for this effort on a consistent basis. Cyclists also spend the majority of their time in the pmax 1min, 5min, 10min and 20min range when watts matter the most.

Keen to read your thoughts on above.

Splash

***disclaimer this is not mine, just transposing what I gathered from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Sw...8&feature=plcp but it aligns with my training experience, and explains things in a helpful logical way.

Basically, all efforts considered, raising your FTP is important. To use the same example as the video, raising FTP lets you "drain the battery" slower...so everytime you go above FTP, (AKA the 1 & 5min efforts you mention), you deplete an energy source that largely can't be replenished during a race/ride. So if you raise your FTP, when you have to go above FTP, it drains your battery more slowly which gives you more of that all-important above threshold energy source further into the race/ride.

Example: say there's a climb on a race/ride that you burn at 400 watts for 1 minute. If your FTP is 250w, @ 400w you are 150w over for 1 minute. If your FTP is 275w, @ 400w you are now only 125w over for 1 minute. So you leave a little bit more energy in the tank, leaving you more energy that should last later into the race/ride.

Now if you ONLY work FTP EVER you will sacrifice ability to be as good as you *could* be at those 1 and 5 minute efforts. So you have to mix in training that incorporates those zones as well, closer to the target of your training so you maximize FTP before getting into the higher stuff that is more taxing on your legs to do.

FTP builds your cake, efforts above it are icing on the cake. You want your cake to be as big as it reasonably can be before you start icing it.

[topflightpro]

Last FTP test I did, I got done, realized I was about 15 miles out, and I was so worn out, I figured it was going to take me an hour and a half to get home. I was not happy.

Fortunately, I caught a tailwind back and recovered some, so it only took about an hour.

[shovelhd]

What is 95% effort?

Try it. You'll know.

[Splash]

***disclaimer this is not mine, just transposing what I gathered from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Sw...8&feature=plcp but it aligns with my training experience, and explains things in a helpful logical way.

Can you repost the video - the link is broken or video will not show.


SPlash