TdF Doping: They'd better be right...

[Samster]

All I can say is that if my name were either Jan Ullrich or Ivan Basso, I bloody well better be guilty guilty guilty up to my nipples.

Because if I'm not, and these journalists/guards/officials in Spain/France/Germany have taken away my shot at the tour, I'd be going after someone else's blood in a serious (but appropriately legal) kind of way.

Doping or larceny or embezzlement or murder: guilty until proven innocent just never worked for me.

Enjoy the tour.

[shaq-d]

Enjoy the tour.

won't be watching it. a tour without the top 3 contenders is more of a look-see than a tour.

sd

[CalfeeFly]

All I can say is that if my name were either Jan Ullrich or Ivan Basso, I bloody well better be guilty guilty guilty up to my nipples.

Because if I'm not, and these journalists/guards/officials in Spain/France/Germany have taken away my shot at the tour, I'd be going after someone else's blood in a serious (but appropriately legal) kind of way.

Doping or larceny or embezzlement or murder: guilty until proven innocent just never worked for me.

Enjoy the tour.

I do not know why everyone is so anxious to condemn the accused so easily.

Jan, who has never had any kind of a positive test, is immediately guilty. His crime is that some bags of blood had his name and Rudy’s name. It is not much of a stretch to see another cyclist being asked what name should we put on your blood and that person replying, “How about Jan?” Wouldn’t that be a kicker if it were true?

Basso is condemned because of the word Brillo. To all Seinfeld fans out there, I guess it is a good thing it did not say Bosco. Then George would be removed from the Tour.

The whole thing is crazy in my opinion to ruin reputations and careers over such flimsy evidence.

[bostondrunk]

give it up, doping is part of the sport. that is why none of them freaked out yesterday. its OK to dope, its not OK to get caught!

[swoop]

i beleive that they have security camera tape from the doctor's building on some of the boys. not totally sure.. but i think that's the stuff that's damning the guys. we'll see....

[CalfeeFly]

give it up, doping is part of the sport. that is why none of them freaked out yesterday. its OK to dope, its not OK to get caught!

When you talk to folks who have raced in Europe that is extremely accurate in their take. What many miss is that when done it is done in training for recovery and not during the race. Dragging around bags of blood in and out of hotels would be a little obvious during the Tour. :)

Again it seems insane to ruin careers and reputations without any kind of concrete evidence.

[Ray]

To me the reactions of the accused are as damning as anything else. If I was innocent and was pulled from the premier event in my field at the last minute, I'd be raising the roof. I'd be threatening lawsuits left and right, I'd be screaming as loud as possible to any media outlet willing to report it. I'd just go nuts. What have Ullrich and Basso said? Along the lines of 'I'm gonna take a couple of days to chill out then go home and start to work at proving my innocence'. They're just waaaaay too measured about the whole thing. Tells me they know they're dead to rights and they want to go get into the legalese and see what kind of technicality they may be able to get off on.

I'm of two minds about the whole thing. Can't quite decide between:

1. You're never gonna stop it so give up trying and
2. You're never gonna stop it but you gotta keep trying

But regardless of where any of us thing it SHOULD go, I think these guys are totally busted and know it and have all but admitted it.

-Ray

[erty65]

:no:Jan, who has never had any kind of a positive test:no:

He has tested positive for amphetamines.

[erty65]

Again it seems insane to ruin careers and reputations without any kind of concrete evidence.

Are you sure there`s no evidence?

[Avispa]

When you talk to folks who have raced in Europe that is extremely accurate in their take. What many miss is that when done it is done in training for recovery and not during the race. Dragging around bags of blood in and out of hotels would be a little obvious during the Tour.

Bro, is that all you got to base your argument on? Sheesh... I might as well wear that damn yellow band!

The whole thing is crazy in my opinion to ruin reputations and careers over such flimsy evidence.

That's precisely the point! Do you think that IF the evidence is THAT filmsy they would have created this kind of mess/scandal? I forgot when was the last time that the police or military disclosed ALL the facts about some investigation, just to please fans, etc. Maybe the cops/riders, DSs, know something we are not ready to know!

BTW, if in some cases eveidence is "so flimsy", why are we holding all those guys in Guantanamo? :confused: :rolleyes:

[Fat Robert]

Again it seems insane to ruin careers and reputations without any kind of concrete evidence.


the blood samples in the fridge matched the blood samples from the 05 tour -- that was the crucial last piece of evidence in matching names to nicknames.

that's pretty solid evidence

[catulle]

That's precisely the point! Do you think that IF the evidence is THAT filmsy they would have created this kind of mess/scandal? I forgot when was the last time that the police or military disclosed ALL the facts about some investigation, just to please fans, etc. Maybe the cops/riders, DSs, knowq something we are not ready to know!

BTW, if in some cases eveidence is "so flimsy", why are we holding all those guys in Guantanamo? :confused: :rolleyes:

Word, atmo.

[catulle]

the blood samples in the fridge matched the blood samples from the 05 tour -- that was the crucial last piece of evidence in matching names to nicknames.

that's pretty solid evidence

Word, atmo.

[GoJavs]

it was good enough for their employers to pull them out. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. :)

[Grant McLean]

it was good enough for their employers to pull them out. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. :)


They had no choice.
I wouldn't use that action to base guilt.

It's a delicate situation. The teams have to
do what the big picture says. Sacrifice the
players to continue the game. That's why
Ivan and Jan went quietly. They had no
choice.

g

[christian]

Yeah, you're right. They're probably totally innocent.

[palincss]

To me the reactions of the accused are as damning as anything else. If I was innocent and was pulled from the premier event in my field at the last minute, I'd be raising the roof. I'd be threatening lawsuits left and right, I'd be screaming as loud as possible to any media outlet willing to report it. I'd just go nuts. What have Ullrich and Basso said? Along the lines of 'I'm gonna take a couple of days to chill out then go home and start to work at proving my innocence'. They're just waaaaay too measured about the whole thing. Tells me they know they're dead to rights and they want to go get into the legalese and see what kind of technicality they may be able to get off on.



Perhaps they noticed how much good that reaction did Tyler Hamilton.

[shinomaster]

Swoop did predict that Jan was going down a while back. Telekom said that he looks really guilty, and that he was going to have to prove his innocence to the team.
I'm just bummed that it is Basso and Jan that were cheating as I admired them both.
George will win the tour.

[Ray]

Perhaps they noticed how much good that reaction did Tyler Hamilton.
I said 'if I was innocent'. Key distinction :cool:

If you react like that and you can't back it up, you're gonna look really really really stupid.

-Ray

[Avispa]

Swoop did predict that Jan was going down a while back. Telekom said that he looks really guilty, and that he was going to have to prove his innocence to the team. I'm just bummed that it is Basso and Jan that were cheating as I admired them both. George will win the tour.

Hey, that's it!

If an American rider wins the Tour, I will believe the Puerto operation was a conspirancy by the Americans and/or the Disco Mafia! Hey, they've got to keep those OLN advertisers happy! :D

[obtuse]

all the teams signed a code of ethics. any rider that is named in an on-going legal investigation; of which this fuentes affair is one; must be suspended by the team untill the investigation is over and said rider is cleared. it has nothing to do with innocence or guilt; it has to do with the fact that the guy in falange outfits handed over the list with these guys names on it. what is so difficult to understand?

i'm really surprised that the peloton doesn't have the balls to stage a rider strike; that's the only thing odd about this whole fiasco.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

i'm really surprised that the peloton doesn't have the balls to stage a rider strike; that's the only thing odd about this whole fiasco.

obtuse

that was my first reaction too. but i think the DS's read the riot act
at that meeting they had.

likely the sponsors wouldn't put up with any rider revolt.
in this situation, the weak link in the chain is the advertisers.
remember liberty? what happens if all the money goes home?
i think the riders were told to chill, or they'd f*ck the whole thing.

g

[obtuse]

that was my first reaction too. but i think the DS's read the riot act
at that meeting they had.

likely the sponsors wouldn't put up with any rider revolt.
in this situation, the weak link in the chain is the advertisers.
remember liberty? what happens if all the money goes home?
i think the riders were told to chill, or they'd f*ck the whole thing.

g


probably right....but remember i'm the jerk who got a tatoo on his shoulder (along with a few team mates) that says, "la police vous parle tous les soirs" when the walloon federation started letting cops search us before and after little po-dunk races.

oh well,

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

probably right....but remember i'm the jerk who got a tatoo on his shoulder (along with a few team mates) that says, "la police vous parle tous les soirs" when the walloon federation started letting cops search us before and after little po-dunk races.

oh well,

obtuse

you da man.

but once the riders started listening to those radios in their earpiece,
it's a slippery slope. the power the ds now has was crystal clear in
that piece of tape showing Riis explain that basso was out.
it wasn't the drug cops, it wasn't the UCI, it was his call.


g

[obtuse]

you da man.

but once the riders started listening to those radios in their earpiece,
it's a slippery slope. the power the ds now has was crystal clear in
that piece of tape showing Riis explain that basso was out.
it wasn't the drug cops, it wasn't the UCI, it was his call.


g


if mr. 60% told me i couldn't ride the tour with basso's form i would have kicked him right in his chemically enhanced head and blown the whistle on the whole freaking thing.

obtuse

[obtuse]

you da man.

but once the riders started listening to those radios in their earpiece,
it's a slippery slope. the power the ds now has was crystal clear in
that piece of tape showing Riis explain that basso was out.
it wasn't the drug cops, it wasn't the UCI, it was his call.


g


by the way- regional belgian racers never had a rider strike due to the cows being allowed to search team vans and bags and rooms and stuff....there was a rider strike due to the national federation mandating the use of helmets though.

but then again this was in a country where you've got to register with the police every time you move to a different town.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

if mr. 60% told me i couldn't ride the tour with basso's form i would have kicked him right in his chemically enhanced head and blown the whistle on the whole freaking thing.

obtuse

that's funny.

tell me how the great dane doesn't know what basso is doing?
"mr. 60" said it's "his" team, and he's responsible. if that's true,
how can Ivan be up to this and he doesn't know. either he knows
and he's a liar, or what, Ivan went to spain on holiday, and came
back with more than a tan? oh wait, they're innocent.
someone please 'splain it to me?

g

[obtuse]

that's funny.

tell me how the great dane doesn't know what basso is doing?
"mr. 60" said it's "his" team, and he's responsible. if that's true,
how can Ivan be up to this and he doesn't know. either his knows
and he's a liar, or what, Ivan went to spain on holiday, and came
back with more than a tan? oh wait, they're innocent.
someone please 'splain it to me?

g

the hgh/neanderthal chemically produced basso they same way he did himself. i know for a fact that there are two riders who have refused bjarne's advice on medical staff and trainers; carlos sastre and michele bartoli. mostly due to the fact that they're both pretty stubborn s.o.b.s. but with the possible exception of andrea tafi who looked better on a bike than bartoli?

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

the hgh/neanderthal chemically produced basso they same way he did himself. i know for a fact that there are two riders who have refused bjarne's advice on medical staff and trainers; carlos sastre and michele bartoli. mostly due to the fact that they're both pretty stubborn s.o.b.s. but with the possible exception of andrea tafi who looked better on a bike than bartoli?

obtuse

i rubbed tafi's P-R bike on friday when i was at cervelo.
didn't do me jack. i still suck.

[obtuse]

i rubbed tafi's P-R bike on friday when i was at cervelo.
didn't do me jack. i still suck.


cool. but tafi always rode with his saddle slightly nose up....and did he use those hurting wheels at roubaix?

anyway, did you see the broken chainstay on dave z.'s prologue winning bike?

mp.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

cool. but tafi always rode with his saddle slightly nose up....and did he use those hurting wheels at roubaix?

anyway, did you see the broken chainstay on dave z.'s prologue winning bike?

mp.

obtuse

none of the wheels on these display pro's bikes are the actual wheels,
they don't get them, zipp keeps them, so cervelo have to buy wheels.

Some of the parts were changed on the Jens Voigt soloist. It had SRM's
on it at the tour, with the transponder do-hicky seat bag. that's not on
display in their office.

Ya, Dave Z's bike is in our store this weekend, i posted a pic on another
thread. The bike is beat up, but cool. I have a thing for actual pro bikes.
Kinda like holding a Miles Davis' trumpet. word.

g

[erty65]

I'm really surprised that the peloton doesn't have the balls to stage a rider strike; that's the only thing odd about this whole fiasco.

Why do you think the riders should strike, when some of them are linked to doping? :confused: