What Bothers Me...

[CalfeeFly]

In all the doping threads are people who mix up all the wide variety of allegations being made into one lump sum of illegal drugs. They call people accused of blood doping as being "juiced up"; mistakenly think they are taking drugs of some sort or another; think that some of the procedures being done were always illegal...yada, yada, yada. I think people need to read more and talk less. In this way, you could make informed decisions.

I have stated similar positions before but people just want to over simplify the entire situation in making these magnificicent athletes into drug dependent shams. Please learn what they are talking about and what they are actually accused of having done.

Blood doping is illegal in cycling. Given that below is objectively what this entails.

A Primer:

Blood Doping involves NO DRUGS WHATSOEVER! It does not make a non-trained person stronger, it doesn't build bigger muscles, it doesn't do anything more than help rebuild an athlete's red blood cell count depleted through hard training. It was legal and Eddie B and the 84 Olympic Team were some of the best in using it. It was considered good science and medicine because it helped athletes that train to phenomenal levels rebuild the damage they do to their body.

Why is blood doping illegal? Because the talking heads that run the sport decided, it should be. Some think it was directed at the US since we were better at the medical science of helping athletes recover from the type of excruciating training that a cyclist does. Blood doping using the blood of other people is dangerous. Freezing your own blood prior to heavy training and then transfusing it is not. That is about it from an objective point of view.

Will blood doping make a cyclist super human? NO! They test blood hemocrit levels all the time. If they test outside of what the talking heads decided was “normal” then they are not within the rules as stated. Doping returns their red blood cell counts to so called normal levels. In this case, they want the “highest” normal possible.

EPO is a drug used in medicine that does the above. Again, it cannot make a super human out of anyone. It can give you somewhat higher red blood cell counts than your body may have been able to recover to on its own up to the arbitrary legal limit imposed by cycling.

Steroids, etc. are a whole other ball game. Unless any of the accused is accused of using this type of drug then please do not mix it into the conversation. Steroids do make a person stronger, bigger, and super human. They do it at what can be great cost to the athlete’s future health. However, the VAST majority of all these accusations and innuendoes have nothing to do with a steroidal type of drug. There is a little of this mixed into the Spanish situation and so far it has appeared to be minor.

Therefore, it is up to everyone to decide if transfusing your own blood to help recover red blood cell count is a huge crime again cycling and society. If you do, then fine if not fine. Please just get all the facts straight before jumping on a bandwagon of burning the “druggies” at the stake.

Basso is still an exceptional cyclist as is Jan. If they did blood dope, it did not make them what they are by any means. Their ability and training did that. Blood doping allowed their body to heal from the abuse given to in less time. Don’t confuse what they did with a body builder who gets huge when he would not normally or a baseball player who got much stronger using steroids and in turn hit more homeruns. It just isn’t the same thing.

Blood doping at one time was called blood boosting. That really is a more accurate label than the current one that makes it sound like some drug is involved.

Flame away...just do it with facts not opinion, fallacy, or ignorance. Back up any flame with fact.

Thank you...thank you very much. :banana:

[Onno]

Why does this all come out today? I haven't been able to read every stitch of news on this, but I haven't read yet why, when the info just released has been known for several weeks, it all lands with a splat on the eve of the Tour? Did it require the pressure of the start of the Tour for the news finally to be made public, has there been a concerted effort to suppress it, are Tour organizers playing chicken, or what? The timing seems rather odd, amazing even.

[Serpico]

who cares, it's illegal--that's the point

it's the fact that they are cheaters, not how they cheated imo

the difference between involuntary manslaughter and murder might be slight--and the outcome the same--but they're viewed differently for the same reason

intent bro, intent

[christian]

Blood doping and steroid usage are the same thing, in so far as they are proscribed by the sanctioning body. If you'd like to start the BDOKUCI which allows, or even encourages, blood doping, that's all fine and good, but the UCI doesn't allow blood doping. Ergo, it's cheating, and cheaters should be punished.

Look, if we put a 36mm restrictor in our rally cars, they'd be a lot faster than if we use the 34mm restrictor that's mandated in the rules. What's 2 eeentsy beeentsy millimeters between friends? Well, a lot, as it turns out.

I fail to see any difference between the UCI mandating "no blood doping" and the FIA mandating a restrictor size or a specific fuel. Cheating is cheating.

[shaq-d]

this line is hilarious:

"EPO is a drug used in medicine that does the above. Again, it cannot make a super human out of anyone. It can give you somewhat higher red blood cell counts than your body may have been able to recover to on its own up to the arbitrary legal limit imposed by cycling. "

yup. not superhuman. would just have something that a human being would never have who trains that hard at that point in time.

i love how, somehow, in defining a term (and thus making a tautology), you are able to make a different claim.

sd

[Fat Robert]

all i know is what i read in the media and what one racer who has done this stuff (and a uscf loser with a big wallet and ego at that, not a high level pro) has told me. if its wrong, clue me in....

didn't El Pais accounts of Fuentes' lab state that the blood was treated with EPO, HGH, and anabolic agents, before it was frozen*? apparently, what they are doing now is not the same blood doping as was done by the finns all those years ago.

we use "juice" as a common term for PEDs -- perhaps we should stop to avoid confusion.

the epo use is different now than in the 90s, according to some -- instead of 65% hematocrits for short-term performance gain, its microdosing to speed recovery. it won't turn a cat 3 into a tour winner. it can turn a top 30 finisher and good domestique into a tour contender if done properly. the drugs speed recovery, allow more intensity or volume than could naturally be sustained, and thus lead to small but significant gains in performance. if jonathan vaughters says "you can't beat someone doing epo," i would be inclined to believe him.


* the news accounts are not entirely clear on this point. some of the cyclingnews.com articles suggest the blood was "hot rodded" then frozen, some suggest that the drug programs were simply in concert with the blood tranfusions.

[Ginger]

Yes. We are as a matter of fact lumping all of the practices that the cycling federation bans into one lump of "doping."

Safe or not, evidently someone has already decided that it is against the rules to transfuse your own blood or take EPO to allow the body to recover quicker. It is not for "us to decide."

The decision was made, the rule exists.


Are you saying that those people who supposedly broke the rule are not cheaters because the practice is safe and has been used before legally?


cyclingnews.com articles suggest the blood was "hot rodded" then frozen, some suggest that the drug programs were simply in concert with the blood tranfusions.

I have always wondered about that whole EPO/Blood transfusion time line: Take EPO, draw blood, Stop the EPO, Transfuse blood....I was wondering if there wouldn't still be traces of whatever drugs they had taken in the blood they transfused (thereby occasionally yeilding positive test results...)

[Kevan]

More people will watch.

Who cleans a house 2 weeks before the relatives show up?

No time for rebuttal.

[Lunar Probe]

yawn

[flydhest]

yawn

Can I use that line? You must be the most creative and original person to come along in a long while.

[Ginger]

Can I use that line? You must be the most creative and original person to come along in a long while.

Yeah...awfully sleepy too...

Maybe they should go ride their bike.

[pddebacker]

WRT blood doping, CalfeeFly you are correct there are no drugs involved.
That is what makes it so effective. When the blood gets pulled, they
put it in a centrifuge and separate the red blood cells from the
rest. When it's time for a boost they re-inject the red blood cells.
Essentially doing exactly what EPO does (which is raise the red blood
cell count).

Ethically, IMHO (ATMO), it's just the same as taking EPO...just harder to
catch. Unless you f*cK up the bag labels which is apparently what tyler
and jesus did. ..

[malcolm]

blood doping does improve performance. athletes trained to the same level. the one with more red cells has more oxygen carrying capacity and therefore should perform better given the same ability to utilize o2 between the two

[97CSI]

who cares, it's illegal--that's the point

it's the fact that they are cheaters, not how they cheated imo

the difference between involuntary manslaughter and murder might be slight--and the outcome the same--but they're viewed differently for the same reason

intent bro, intentWhat he said. Go George!! (don't get caught).

[JohnS]

Calfeefly was the original recipient of the title "obtuse". :p

[toaster]

With all due respect, CalfeeFly, I think I know what you're trying to say but still the post is a bit misinformed, IMHO.

Blood doping, EPO, steroids, HGH, and other methods of performance enhancement and/or recovery strategies have inherent dangers. It's possible to minimize the dangers and actually be pretty darn safe but the real danger lies in the abuse of drugs when used against policies and ethical standards. The problem of blood transfusions and boosting RBC is that the blood can thicken and create major problems to the heart, not to mention just the sanitary and viral concerns of needles and blood pathogens.

The biggest problem seems to be the ethical demands of society who see drugs, blood doping, or genetic engineering as cheating in sport but demand a cure for every aliment affecting man. Of course we should heal the sick, but shouldn't we cure baldness, erectile dysfunction, depression, osteoporosis, obesity, and even slow down aging and help maintain youth, happiness, and appearance?

You know, better drugs and forms of cheating are coming with every advance made in medical technology. I just want my heroes not to get pulled from the planet's biggest bike race a day before when the fact that pro cyclists use these methods is acceptable in my book. I just realize these dudes choose to be "extreme" athletes by their talent, work ethic, and willingness to risk their health by competing at this elite level. It's just a hope that the doctors advising these athletes keep the cheating relatively safe.

[Fivethumbs]

I think the question is: "Is the playing field level?" An athlete should not be put in the position to have to undergo a medical procedure or take drugs simply to have a chance of winning a competition. Used to be all you had to do was refrain from sex and get a good nights sleep the night before the big game.

[CalfeeFly]

Calfeefly was the original recipient of the title "obtuse". :p


Obtuse is not realizing that both doping and EPO cannot increase performance to super human capabilities since they check hemocrit levels and there is a normal range. Both methods raise hemocrit levels, BUT there are set limits on how high the red blood cell count can be. The cyclist must test at the levels the sport has called normal. Because of this both EPO and doping will help any athlete recover back to what is designated normal. They can't use them to go further or they will be busted for high hemocrit levels.

I hope this is clear enough for those truly obtuse that can't grasp this rather simplistic concept.

Except for a few non-obtuse folks manyof you have not realized that I haven't condoned the practice or not. I merely am pointing out what it does and does not do for the athlete. :D

[JohnS]

It can bring riders hemocrit levels to higher than normal levels but still under the suspension level.

[Ginger]

....since they check hemocrit levels and there is a normal range. ....BUT there are set limits on how high the red blood cell count can be.... The cyclist must test at the levels the sport has called normal. .... They can't use them to go further or they will be busted for high hemocrit levels.

Except for a few non-obtuse folks manyof you have not realized that I haven't condoned the practice or not. I merely am pointing out what it does and does not do for the athlete. :D

Ah, No.
You keep mentioning about "limits." If yours was only a discussion of what it does for the athlete, there would be no discussion of acceptable limits of what the sport has called normal.

(and there are far better descriptions of both blood "doping" and EPO effects out there...even on this very forum...perhaps you should have done a search and just linked to those discussions here or on some other forum.)

[Johny]

Obtuse is not realizing that both doping and EPO cannot increase performance to super human capabilities since they check hemocrit levels and there is a normal range. Both methods raise hemocrit levels, BUT there are set limits on how high the red blood cell count can be. The cyclist must test at the levels the sport has called normal. Because of this both EPO and doping will help any athlete recover back to what is designated normal. They can't use them to go further or they will be busted for high hemocrit levels.

I hope this is clear enough for those truly obtuse that can't grasp this rather simplistic concept.

Except for a few non-obtuse folks manyof you have not realized that I haven't condoned the practice or not. I merely am pointing out what it does and does not do for the athlete. :D



Hey my bike shimmy a lot without EPO!

[CalfeeFly]

Hey my bike shimmy a lot without EPO!


Pour three bags of blood down the seat tube and call me in the morning. :)

[Fat Robert]

calfee -

talk to an ex-pro about the creative use of spinners and saline IVs to get the hematocrit temporarily down below the limit for the test

[andy mac]

Calfree, have you tried either method?

would be interested top hear from someone with first hand knowledge.

[CalfeeFly]

I have not since I could transfuse by the gallon every day and still get passed on hills by old ladies using walkers. But I have had conversations with guys who have ridden Europe and some that either go back to when it was legal blood boosting and/or trained with Eddie B who used it so well. Back then it was considered a "good science" and a new legal medical way to recover faster so you could train harder. Those people really never seemed to view it as a big deal used as part of a training regiment. The whole idea was not to get super human hemocrit levels but really back to normal so you can go out and hammer again. The theory being that the more you could train the better you can get.

[Dekonick]

[QUOTE=Fivethumbs]I think the question is: "Is the playing field level?" An athlete should not be put in the position to have to undergo a medical procedure or take drugs simply to have a chance of winning a competition.

What about fake boobs?

Should we stop watching movies because star's have saline implants? What about all of the other cosmetic 'ehnancements'?

I could care less if someone wants to 'blood dope'. At some point you have to wonder what the difference is between blood doping or getting an IV of saline and ringers to recover post race.

It is absolutely stupid that a cyclist has to race with a pumpkin sized face after being stung by a bee because the proper treatment just happens to be a banned substance. How can that be good for the sport or the athlete?

I don't like what the riders do to achieve their level of performance but as long as they are informed, and doing the deed of their own will, leave 'em alone. I want to see Jan race! :crap: :crap: :crap: