Extreme OT: daycare vs. pre-preschool

[rcnute]

Since I get my investment and real estate advice from a bike forum, why not child care/learning?

Our son is almost 2. Three days a week he goes to an in-home daycare with about 6-7 other kids (ranging from babies to 4 or so). There are 2 adults to supervise/interact. It's great and he loves it but I think he gets bored sometimes. Other 2 days are with grandma or grandpa.

There's a Montessori preschool by my office where we'd like him to go when he's ready for preschool. They have a kind of pre-preschool program for toddlers. 15 or so kids in a class. More structured activities there and kids are around the same age. More stuff to do, better playground. 5 days a week.

I'm not a tiger parent and don't care if he goes to an Ivy someday. Just want him to be where he'll maximize fun and learning.

Any thoughts about one vs. the other or whether it makes any difference? Thanks.

Ryan

[onsight512]

Both of our boys, now 6 and 8, went to a Montessori preschool, here in LA, through Kindergarten. Our experience, and I believe theirs, was a positive one. The teachers were great.
One thing I'd say, if you're thinking about Montessori, is to make sure it's an actual accredited Montessori school. Not all that call themselves, are.

[benb]

My siblings went to Montessori and all of them + my parents would say it was worth it.

There are all kinds of other day care/preschool setups that are also going to be a bit more learning focused than the average in home day care.

A lot of these are super super expensive though depending on where you live. My son's is > $20k out in the Suburbs, same place in Boston is > $30k and in NYC is > $40k. Total insanity unless both parents have great careers.

[45K10]

Yeah I am wondering the same thing as well. We have an 18 month old son and pay big bucks to have a nanny come pick him up and bring him home. I work from home so, I can't have him around here all day. The nanny has a 20 month old son as well. She takes the kids to play groups and other activities but I am wondering if a more structured thing would be a better use of the money. However, I have had some friends send there kids to Montessori pre-school in the past with mixed results.

[carpediemracing]

We have our 4 year old in a "regular" daycare. I don't know other daycares but it's quite extensive. They have sign language stuff, they clean up, various activities, reading, playground, indoor play area for icy weather, food, etc. We put Junior in at about 6 months old just so he could catch colds from the other kids and stuff. We've kept him there since. When he was about 2? we adjusted his schedule to the morning because the mornings have all the structure. There's nap in the afternoon and then generally a free play situation for a couple hours before pick up.

As far as I know he doesn't feel pressured or anything. He loves the teachers, loves the activities. He learns a lot of stuff that we wouldn't have taught, stuff that is life stuff, not just letter or words or stuff. He's learned to enjoy cleaning up after himself for example. He counts on his fingers "properly" and so I've learned how to count using ASL rather than generically holding up 3 fingers for 3 (or whatever). I'm super impressed, that's for sure.

I like that his peers are similar to him in development. There's always some kids ahead, some behind. So when he went up to one class he was one of the young ones with pull ups on. When he went to the next class no pull up.

When I picked him up when he was younger we'd go to an empty play room and play there for up to 2-3 hours before we left. Even nowadays I'll try to spare an hour for him in an empty playroom. He likes to visit his old rooms where the younger kids are, he greets a bunch of the staff by name, etc etc.

At 4 years old I think the ratio is 8 kids per teacher/staff. When he was 2 years old it was 4 kids per teacher/staff. I don't remember the age where it went up, it was probably 3 years old.

[93legendti]

We went the pre preschool route with our son. At 18 months he was bored at home and getting into trouble if we turned around for a few seconds -he would start climbing things you'd swear he couldn't climb.

Our first child was at home till she was around 3.

Our son is much more sociable and easy going. Coincidence? We will never know.

[ColonelJLloyd]

We have our 4 year old in a "regular" daycare. I don't know other daycares but it's quite extensive. They have sign language stuff, they clean up, various activities, reading, playground, indoor play area for icy weather, food, etc. We put Junior in at about 6 months old just so he could catch colds from the other kids and stuff. We've kept him there since. When he was about 2? we adjusted his schedule to the morning because the mornings have all the structure. There's nap in the afternoon and then generally a free play situation for a couple hours before pick up.

As far as I know he doesn't feel pressured or anything. He loves the teachers, loves the activities. He learns a lot of stuff that we wouldn't have taught, stuff that is life stuff, not just letter or words or stuff. He's learned to enjoy cleaning up after himself for example. He counts on his fingers "properly" and so I've learned how to count using ASL rather than generically holding up 3 fingers for 3 (or whatever). I'm super impressed, that's for sure.

I like that his peers are similar to him in development. There's always some kids ahead, some behind. So when he went up to one class he was one of the young ones with pull ups on. When he went to the next class no pull up.

When I picked him up when he was younger we'd go to an empty play room and play there for up to 2-3 hours before we left. Even nowadays I'll try to spare an hour for him in an empty playroom. He likes to visit his old rooms where the younger kids are, he greets a bunch of the staff by name, etc etc.

At 4 years old I think the ratio is 8 kids per teacher/staff. When he was 2 years old it was 4 kids per teacher/staff. I don't remember the age where it went up, it was probably 3 years old.

+1
I'm really happy with the education, care and opportunities (they went to a firehouse today) my nearly 4yo daughter gets at her daycare/pre-K. She's been around the same caregivers/teachers since she was 3 months old. She loves it.

And while extensive, it is also expensive. My wife is due in September with our second and we calculated that while both children are attending it's going to cost us $2,100/mo. :help:

[benb]

+1
I'm really happy with the education, care and opportunities (they went to a firehouse today) my nearly 4yo daughter gets at her daycare/pre-K. She's been around the same caregivers/teachers since she was 3 months old. She loves it.

And while extensive, it is also expensive. My wife is due in September with our second and we calculated that while both children are attending it's going to cost us $2,100/mo. :help:

Lucky you that's about what we pay for 1 here.. prices have a lot to do with regulations in a given state AFAICT along with living costs. More staff required by law seems to go along with areas with higher cost of living so each staff member gets paid more and there are more of them. Almost all the staff where my son goes even have early childhood education degrees. They do a great job though.

I can't wait for kindergarten. It's going to feel like a huge raise..

[45K10]

We are paying $2400/month for one kid, the cost of daycare is out of control.

[ColonelJLloyd]

We are paying $2400/month for one kid, the cost of daycare is out of control.

Wow. I wonder if that's in line with what I pay if you compare median home prices. I'm in 40205. The missus and I are seriously considering living in Canada or Australia for a decade or so depending on what happens in early November.

[notsew]

We recently went through this decision. Our kid is 2.5 and we were trying to decide if we wanted to take him out of daycare (small in home place, 5 or 6 kids depending on the day) and put him in preschool for year 3. We decided to keep him in preschool for a couple reasons.

First and foremost, all the other parents in our daycare are teachers and they all felt like the kids got the same educational-type stuff at the day care as they would in preschool. Lots of structure, socialization and projects.

Second, there was no nap at preschool and we love us some nap time on the weekends (i.e. bike-riding time).

Finally, the day care is just a lot cheaper. Its a pretty ideal little place and she charges far less than she's worth (we actually pay her for an extra day because my wife feels so guilty about how cheap it is).

I'll also say, that while not a preschool expert by any means, I was pretty heavily involved with the development of a preschool funding program at a city I used to work and that taught me a lot about what is important for kids in those early years. I was pretty adamant about preschool until we went through the process, talked to people and (I) learned more about what our daycare was like.

I guess at the end of the day it depends on the daycare. Socializing and teaching basic stuff is really important starting around age three. There are certainly exceptions, but the science out there says it makes a huge difference for the average kid. But if they are getting that from their daycare in a meaningful way, then preschool can sometimes just be a more expensive version of the same thing. If their not getting that, you might want to seriously consider a change.

We are planning to put our little dude in preschool part-time at age four so that he can get used to the pace of a school environment, more kids and ease into kindergarten.

[benb]

I should clarify, where my son is going "day care" and "pre school" are all mixed together.

He's been there since he was about 3 months old.. (which was even more expensive). The kids move from an infant program -> toddler program -> preschool program -> pre-kindergarten program with it slowly becoming more and more like school. Lots of the expensive day cares (not in-home ones) have this kind of program. We looked at lots and lots of places.

My mother didn't work.. I very briefly went to pre-school. My younger brothers and sisters went to Montessori a bit of the day at certain ages just to get some of the kids out of the house so she could get a breather. (4 kids) My youngest brother was born when I was in about 2nd grade so by that point I was off at regular school anyway.

My son's situation is different, he is at "pre school" basically full time, more than 40 hours a week since we both work. It makes me feel pretty guilty sometimes, so knowing he's in a really good program makes it feel a little better... also none of these "schools" ever have a single adult taking care of the kids by themselves with no other adults around, makes it a little harder for a bad egg to mess with the kids than an at home program or a nanny. My sister had to fire a nanny for being quite cruel to her daughter, I wouldn't want to have to go through that. That was quite a story...

[45K10]

Wow. I wonder if that's in line with what I pay if you compare median home prices. I'm in 40205. The missus and I are seriously considering living in Canada or Australia for a decade or so depending on what happens in early November.

I work for a Canadian company and lived in Vancouver for a couple of years. Taxes be crazy but things like childcare and health costs are way cheaper than in the states. I have some friends that moved to Melbourne from Vancouver, they miss Vancouver.

[weaponsgrade]

I moved my kids from daycare to a Montessori preschool when they were about 18 months old. They were getting really bored at daycare once they reached that age. The preschool isn't cheap but they learned a lot and did really well. One is still there and the other will be entering first grade. My neighbor has two little kids too. They sent the younger kid to a preschool but not the older one. The kids are a year apart. When they got old enough for elementary school, the younger one in kinder knew more than the older one who was in first grade. They said they wished they would've sent the older to preschool as well. There was an article in the Atlantic not too long ago about preschool being too much. (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/the-new-preschool-is-crushing-kids/419139/). I don't know what the answer is, but come back to me in 15 years and I'll tell you.

[Climb01742]

As I'm sure you've thought about, the answer isn't always easy because there are 3 variables: the daycare in question, the pre-school in question, and your child. For us, the key question was: as our child grew, when did she mature from gaining more from a nurturing dominant environment to gaining more from a learning/stimulation dominant environment?

For our daughter, the shift was at about 2-2.5 years old. The more stimulating experience of pre-school has been hugely positive for her. We're lucky because while learning and experiences are the first priority of her pre-school, two of her teachers have also been very nurturing too and she's bonded with them in a really positive, secure way. Which is a long-winded way of saying, it's really about balances, right? If daycare is, like, 70% nurture and 30% learning, the 60-70% learning of pre-school is awesome, but so too is the 30-40% nurturing.

Everyday I'm reminded that our 4.5 year old is very bright and curious...but also still very much a wee one who loves hugs and feeling safe. Best of luck finding that good balance.

[Ken Robb]

My daughter went to the highly-regarded pre-school at La Jolla Presbyterian Church and we were all very pleased with the experience.

My wife is Director of Music Ministries at St. Paul's Lutheran Church and School. The school has a very active music/art program. The school is K-8 and there is also a pre-school which seems to very good too.

Based on my experience with these I would suggest checking with churches/temples in your area for good pre-schools that may be relatively inexpensive as they are non-profits.

You can always quit if you are unhappy with the program once you try it. As far as I know there are no long-term contracts. A few may have more applicants than they can accept so I'd suggest starting your investigation of any new contenders soon. Good luck.

[EDS]

We sent my daughter to pre-school at 2.5 years old. She just finished pre-k and I look forward to next year when I get to take advantage of my zip code and send her to public kindergarten. At 2.5 she only went three half-days a week, then 5 half days a week the next year and five regular school days for pre-K this past year. She can write, knows the alphabet, some math, some reading, knows sign language, did art and science units so I feel she learned a lot. She also very much enjoyed the social interaction and made a lot of friends through school. It was painfully expensive, as are most things in NYC. That said, up until this past year I doubt there was much difference from what she would have learned/experienced at day care.

[buddybikes]

Are pre-pre-schools only 9-10 months? So need to figure that other time so they aren't on the street...

good article here https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/09/01/the-decline-of-play-in-preschoolers-and-the-rise-in-sensory-issues/

[oldpotatoe]

Wow. I wonder if that's in line with what I pay if you compare median home prices. I'm in 40205. The missus and I are seriously considering living in Canada or Australia for a decade or so depending on what happens in early November.

YGBSM, regardless of who gets nominated or elected. 'Things' won't change much regardless of the electoral rhetoric. Unless you work for the present administration, but yer in MA.

[Peter P.]

We are paying $2400/month for one kid, the cost of daycare is out of control.

Perhaps the cost of HAVING CHILDREN is out of control. But people never seem to factor family size into their ability to pay. Instead, they have children until it consumes all their income, at which point they begin to complain about costs...

[45K10]

Perhaps the cost of HAVING CHILDREN is out of control. But people never seem to factor family size into their ability to pay. Instead, they have children until it consumes all their income, at which point they begin to complain about costs...

I agree with your sentiment to a point. We have no problem paying the $2400 a month but by your logic only the more fortunate portion of U.S. society should have children.

[ftf]

For your situation I would say that pre-preschool would actually be a disadvantage.

For a child who is in a deprived environment a structured pre-preschool would be a huge step up, however, this doesn't sound like your child, in fact I would say the balance of a 3/1 ratio for day care, and then 2 days a week with attentive grandparents is about right. Keep in mind that limited boredom is actually a good thing, it allows the child to think about the world and are then forced to rely on themselves a bit.

[ColonelJLloyd]

YGBSM, regardless of who gets nominated or elected. 'Things' won't change much regardless of the electoral rhetoric. Unless you work for the present administration, but yer in MA.

No, I'm only half joking. Yes, I realize things aren't likely to change much. I am not in Massachusetts. I am south of the Mason-Dixon and you've made your feelings known about "us", though I've been nothing but respectful to you. I like to believe you're just throwing around southern stereotypes because they're mildly funny, which I will concede.

[Tickdoc]

Fwiw, our kids went to a Reggio method school from about 1/12 til 1st grade and it was spectacular. It is play centered, explorative, diverse, and varies depending on what the kids are into.

They experienced tons of art, German, great science, nature, etc. it is structured, but in a behind the scenes way.

I don't know if there are any in your area, but the method is good, for little ones at least.

[unterhausen]

We went the pre preschool route with our son. At 18 months he was bored at home and getting into trouble if we turned around for a few seconds -he would start climbing things you'd swear he couldn't climb.

Our first child was at home till she was around 3.

Our son is much more sociable and easy going. Coincidence? We will never know.
this sounds really familiar. My son started going to the baby room of his pre-school when he was 6 months old. The other kid in the baby room at the same time was valedictorian of their high school class. We felt guilty about putting him in there, but he was really happy, and he's still really happy and he's constantly teaching himself things. For example, he's teaching himself Latin.

I tried to convince him that he needed to work a little harder in high school if he wanted to get into an elite college, but he didn't, and he's happy at the local school. I'm sure he'll get into whatever grad program he applies to.

[dbh]

I have two: a 3 and a half year old and a three month old. The older one was at home with her mother until she was one and a half. We were confronted with the daycare/preschool choice and went with the more expensive preschool option as opposed to the in-home daycare. We thought the educational enrichment was worth the $ and are happy with our choice. The younger one will start off at an in-home daycare when he turns 5 months old as my wife and I will both be working. When he's older, he'll join his sister in preschool.

[Peter P.]

I agree with your sentiment to a point. We have no problem paying the $2400 a month but by your logic only the more fortunate portion of U.S. society should have children.

That is partly the realization I have come to. Unfortunate, unfair, but logically it is true.

[ftf]

That is partly the realization I have come to. Unfortunate, unfair, but logically it is true.

Fire up the eugenics programs again.

[notsew]

I agree with your sentiment to a point. We have no problem paying the $2400 a month but by your logic only the more fortunate portion of U.S. society should have children.

In most big cities, where these costs are most out of control, there are good supports and subsidies for the poorest (head start, etc). The crunch really happens for lower middle class who earn too much for the subsidized programs and too little to afford the expense.