OMFG!!! Discovery Team also kicked out!!!

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just kidding. ;) :eek:

Sorry, I just COULDN'T resist. :p

Go, BIG GEORGE!!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

BBD

[rnhood]

Fortunately they are not kicking the clean teams out. I bet Lance is getting a big laugh out of all this.

[christian]

I'm certain you mean "the teams with their own doctors."

And, really, how someone can see this as a vindication for Lance, I have no idea. It's just more proof that they're *all* dirty. The idea that Lance won 7 tours, beating a juiced Jan and Basso, while clean as the driven snow is absurd.

[goonster]

I'm certain you mean "the teams with their own doctors."

And, really, how someone can see this as a vindication for Lance, I have no idea. It's just more proof that they're *all* dirty. The idea that Lance won 7 tours, beating a juiced Jan and Basso, while clean as the driven snow is absurd.

+1.

This is a huge gut check for the sport. With the Festina affair they could crucify a single team and then wash their hands of the rest of the circus.

In this case, where an investigation into a single clinic implicates top-tier riders from multiple teams, you have to be deluded to think that it doesn't affect a majority of the peloton.

Now we'll see if the UCI is serious about "cleaning up the sport", or if they'll continue to mince around and exercise damage control.

[Jason E]

I'm certain you mean "the teams with their own doctors."

And, really, how someone can see this as a vindication for Lance, I have no idea. It's just more proof that they're *all* dirty. The idea that Lance won 7 tours, beating a juiced Jan and Basso, while clean as the driven snow is absurd.

I think it is too naive to think they are all dirty, just as it is too naive to think they are all clean.

To say that others' doping is proof that they were beaten by a doper is also too simplistic.

As Fixed had cited, there are three's that dope, but still lose and bark at cars, while clean guys beat them.

Doping to aid recovery or fix you faster is only part of the equation. That's why a guy like LeMond or Merckx can still stomp our asses today, even in their out-of-shape old man bodies...

It's more then dope at all levels. Doping sucks, and this whole affair sucks, but lets not use poor logic.

I'm by means a Lance fan, if you would have presumed guilt on anyone because they beat a doper I'd have said the same thing....

You better not be infering that Fixed is on the Juice! :D

[Elefantino]

Are you ready for the what?

Sorry, Jan. Don't mean to pile on.

[Jason E]

Are you ready for the what?

Sorry, Jan. Don't mean to pile on.

See, that's good stuff.

I keep thinking about the ad on cycling.tv where they show a bunch of 'Giant' bicycles and them Jan says "now you fast."

Love it.

[J.Greene]

I think it is too naive to think they are all dirty, just as it is too naive to think they are all clean.

To say that others' doping is proof that they were beaten by a doper is also too simplistic.

As Fixed had cited, there are three's that dope, but still lose and bark at cars, while clean guys beat them.

Doping to aid recovery or fix you faster is only part of the equation. That's why a guy like LeMond or Merckx can still stomp our asses today, even in their out-of-shape old man bodies...

It's more then dope at all levels. Doping sucks, and this whole affair sucks, but lets not use poor logic.

I'm by means a Lance fan, if you would have presumed guilt on anyone because they beat a doper I'd have said the same thing....

You better not be infering that Fixed is on the Juice! :D

I think it is naive to think in light of what is happening now that Lance was clean. There has been years of annecdotal eveidence that lance is not completely clean. How many ex teammates will he have to explain away? swart, frankie etc.. When you take off the yellow wrist band the whole issue becomes clearer.

JG

[Johny]

It's more then dope at all levels. Doping sucks, and this whole affair sucks, but lets not use poor logic.

I'm by means a Lance fan, if you would have presumed guilt on anyone because they beat a doper I'd have said the same thing....



The logic is that even with 6 EPO positive samples, Lance is still clean. Go UCI! Go Lance! Take yellow!

[Jason E]

It should have said "by no means a Lance fan"

We all agree to the playing field, so skip the anecdote's and show proof that holds up, not suspicious leaked stuff.

My wristband is black.

[97CSI]

Man-o-man. Disco's budget must be HUGE if they can pay what it must be costing to get all the competition kicked out. Go George!!

[Jason E]

Like a Bond supervillian

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1537741_gold300.jpg

[christian]

As Fixed had cited, there are three's that dope, but still lose and bark at cars, while clean guys beat them.

The variance in training, tactics, and genetic predisposition between Cat 3s varies significantly more than the variance in training, tactics, and genetic predisposition in professional cyclists, so I don't think that comparison holds much weight. The difference is, professional cyclists have already been selected for genetic disposition, have all put in the training, and have all learned the tactics. The differences between the GC riders is minute.

Additionally, we're all aware that the benefits achievable by the use of PEDs are quite significant. They're not relying on the healing power of crystals, they're taking medically-proven performance enhancing drugs.

It's more then dope at all levels. Doping sucks, and this whole affair sucks, but lets not use poor logic.

I'm by means a Lance fan, if you would have presumed guilt on anyone because they beat a doper I'd have said the same thing....

Ok, let's suppose that only 30% of the field is on PEDS, and that the GC contenders are in the top 99.x% percentile of all cyclists. It seems a reasonable inference at this point that Basso and Jan were using PEDS, which I think you'll stipulate give them a significant performance boost.

And yet Lance has dropped them like hot potatoes over the years. I think there are two possible inferences made from this - one is that Lance is simply superhuman and a physical specimen unlike all other professional cyclists, which allows him to beat the best cyclists in the world, despite the fact that they have been taking advantage of a very distinct techno-physiological advantage. And has been able to do so consistently for seven years.

I think the other logical inference is more likely.

- Christian

[Avispa]

I am getting rid of all my bikes! I will never ride again because all these pros are dopers!

I am just going to run.... But wait, do runners dope too?

I better become a couch potato!

[fiamme red]

I am getting rid of all my bikes! I will never ride again because all these pros are dopers!

I am just going to run.... But wait, do runners dope too?

I better become a couch potato!Take up curling.

On the other hand, you may need to dope to stay awake for a whole match. :D

[97CSI]

And yet Lance has dropped them like hot potatoes over the years. I think there are two possible inferences made from this - one is that Lance is simply superhuman and a physical specimen unlike all other professional cyclists, which allows him to beat the best cyclists in the world, despite the fact that they have been taking advantage of a very distinct techno-physiological advantage. And has been able to do so consistently for seven years.

I think the other logical inference is more likely.

- ChristianMaybe....maybe not. IIRC, LA's measured performance on the machines for VOx, etc., was the highest ever measured for not just a cyclist, but for any pro in any sport. But, could have been ped induced, even on the machines.

[GoJavs]

Maybe....maybe not. IIRC, LA's measured performance on the machines for VOx, etc., was the highest ever measured for not just a cyclist, but for any pro in any sport. But, could have been ped induced, even on the machines.

Vox? Sure about that? I thought I remembered reading LeMond's was higher than Armstrong and one of the reasons why LeMond doubted Armstrong's performances.

[97CSI]

Vox? Sure about that? I thought I remembered reading LeMond's was higher than Armstrong and one of the reasons why LeMond doubted Armstrong's performances.I've tried googling around to see if I can find something, but all I get is a bunch of blog BS. Wish google hadn't gone to the 'he who pays the most gets listed first' format. Makes it difficult to find things without wading through pages of BS. Perhaps you have more patience and can find something one way or the other.

[67-59]

And yet Lance has dropped them like hot potatoes over the years. I think there are two possible inferences made from this - one is that Lance is simply superhuman and a physical specimen unlike all other professional cyclists, which allows him to beat the best cyclists in the world, despite the fact that they have been taking advantage of a very distinct techno-physiological advantage. And has been able to do so consistently for seven years.

I think the other logical inference is more likely.

- Christian


I don't know whether Lance was clean or not, and neither do you. But I seem to recall reading somewhere that years ago he was tested in a performance lab, and his VO2 max was off the charts, and his ability to withstand lactic acid was astonishing (or perhaps it was that his LA production was really low, which would give the same result). Not just off the charts compared to the general public, but compared to other elite athletes. So maybe, just maybe, the other inference (physical specimen unlike all others...) could be the right answer. Simple genetic variability tells us that it certainly is possible to get a "mutant" like that every now and again. How can you be so sure it isn't Lance? Maybe it's naive to believe he's innocent, but it's just as naive to assume that an "off the charts" physical specimen won't come along every once in a while.

And for those who say Lance wasn't caught because he had more $$ to spend on docs than the other riders, remember that when he first came back from cancer, he wasn't rolling in the dough. In fact, he ended up with USPS largely because other teams weren't interested. So how'd he escape detection then?

Seems to me that the people who think Lance was doping have quite a few more questions to answer than the folks who think he wasn't....

[J.Greene]

It should have said "by no means a Lance fan"

We all agree to the playing field, so skip the anecdote's and show proof that holds up, not suspicious leaked stuff.

My wristband is black.


I'll stick to what said. I don't think "proof" is required to choose not to be naive.

I feel for Lance in that he can't prove he is innocent either. Like Barry Bonds, he can just say I've never failed a drug test.

JG

[97CSI]

People can draw their own conclusions about any of this. What is too bad is that we can't get the same info on the riders that dominated 'back when'. Would be most interesting to compare EM, JA, GL, ME to LA and to each of their contemporaries. Am guessing it would be very illuminating. But, if wishes were horses frogs won't bump their *** when they hopped, now, would they.

[Serpico]

...

[christian]

Simple genetic variability tells us that it certainly is possible to get a "mutant" like that every now and again. How can you be so sure it isn't Lance? Maybe it's naive to believe he's innocent, but it's just as naive to assume that an "off the charts" physical specimen won't come along every once in a while.

I certainly admit that there is a possibility that Lance is super-human, but the possibility of something does not suggest that its likelihood is equivalent to all other possibilities presented. As such, it's a logical fallacy to assume that our respective beliefs are somehow equally likely, and that our presumed naivete is equivalent.

Tangentially, compared to most professionals, Jan and Ivan are super-human. But that doesn't seem to have dampened their appetites.

- Christian

[Lunar Probe]

yawn

[BumbleBeeDave]

You seem exhausted . . . perhaps you could use some chemical "help?" ;)

BBD

[GoJavs]

I found this same statement on several websites regarding Lance's physical attributes:

Rare athletic physical attributes
All top cyclists have excellent key physical attributes. Armstrong is no exception, although in one way, he may be unusually good even for an elite athlete. He is near the top but not at the top aerobically, having a VO2 Max of 83.8 mL/kg/min -- much higher than the average person (40-50) but not as high as that of some other elite cyclists, such as Miguel Indurain (88.0) or Greg LeMond (92.5). His heart is 30 percent larger than average, but an enlarged heart is common for athletes as well. Armstrong's most unusual attribute may be his low lactate levels: even with intense training, while most other racers are in the twenties, Armstrong doesn't go above a 6. Some theorize that his high pedaling cadence is designed to take advantage of this, while others -- like Jan Ullrich -- rely on their aerobic capacity more, pushing a large gear at a lower
-----------------------
Does that make Lance a mutant? or an incredible physical specimen? Oh, I don't know but Big Mig and LeMond both had higher VO2 max's so go figure....


I don't know whether Lance was clean or not, and neither do you. But I seem to recall reading somewhere that years ago he was tested in a performance lab, and his VO2 max was off the charts, and his ability to withstand lactic acid was astonishing (or perhaps it was that his LA production was really low, which would give the same result). Not just off the charts compared to the general public, but compared to other elite athletes. So maybe, just maybe, the other inference (physical specimen unlike all others...) could be the right answer. Simple genetic variability tells us that it certainly is possible to get a "mutant" like that every now and again. How can you be so sure it isn't Lance? Maybe it's naive to believe he's innocent, but it's just as naive to assume that an "off the charts" physical specimen won't come along every once in a while.

And for those who say Lance wasn't caught because he had more $$ to spend on docs than the other riders, remember that when he first came back from cancer, he wasn't rolling in the dough. In fact, he ended up with USPS largely because other teams weren't interested. So how'd he escape detection then?

Seems to me that the people who think Lance was doping have quite a few more questions to answer than the folks who think he wasn't....

[GoJavs]

which I'm sure most LA fans dismiss as fabricated but....This is a supposed conversation between Lance and LeMond:

QUOTE

LA: "Well, your comeback in '89 was so spectacular. Mine's a miracle,
yours was a miracle. You couldn't have been as strong as you were in
'89 without EPO."

GL: "Listen Lance, before EPO was ever in cycling, I won the Tour de
France. First time I was in the Tour, I was third; second time I
should have won but was held back by my team, third time I won it. It
is not because of EPO that I have won the Tour, my haematocrit was
never more than 45, but because I had a V02 max of 95, yours was 82.
Tell me one person who said I did EPO."

LA: "Everyone knows it."

GL: "Are you threatening me?"

LA: "If you want to throw stones, I will throw stones."

GL: "So you are threatening me? Listen Lance, I know physiology; no
amount of training can transform an athlete with a VO2 max of 82 into
one with a VO2 Max of 95 and you have ridden faster than I did."

UNQUOTE

[Johny]

And for those who say Lance wasn't caught because he had more $$ to spend on docs than the other riders...

He was caught with 6 EPO positive samples in the 1999 TdF.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . about all this affair is that all these riders supposedly were on "programs" organized by this doctor and they were all doping--but so few of them actually tested positive.

This means several things to me. First, I hate to be so cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me one d@mn bit if they are all guilty a charged.

Second, if they all ARE guilty, it means the testing procedures in use now are very close to useless. So many using, so few caught.

Third, this just metaphorically adds one more circumstantial brick in the wall that increasingly makes me think Lance is as guilty as the rest, but hid it well and got out just in time.

I'm sad that I've grown to feel that way, but I still had a great 40 mile ride tonight, so i guess the world goes on.

BBD

[scienceguy08]

Will Jan join Lance in Iowa?

[bostondrunk]

. . . about all this affair is that all these riders supposedly were on "programs" organized by this doctor and they were all doping--but so few of them actually tested positive.

This means several things to me. First, I hate to be so cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me one d@mn bit if they are all guilty a charged.

Second, if they all ARE guilty, it means the testing procedures in use now are very close to useless. So many using, so few caught.

Third, this just metaphorically adds one more circumstantial brick in the wall that increasingly makes me think Lance is as guilty as the rest, but hid it well and got out just in time.

I'm sad that I've grown to feel that way, but I still had a great 40 mile ride tonight, so i guess the world goes on.

BBD

Well, aside from the drugs, looks like many of them are using the proven method of blood doping. So as long as they use their own blood, there is really no way to test for it, no?

[Johny]

I'm sad that I've grown to feel that way, but I still had a great 40 mile ride tonight, so i guess the world goes on.

BBD

Why being emotional? Try to do your regular 40 mile ride 4 times each day for 3 weeks at 25 MPH and then tell us how great cycling is and what a wonderful world it is.

It is not superhuman; it is inhuman atmo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I'm an EXTRATERRESTRIAL! :beer:

BBD