Tour cancelled

[bostondrunk]

Thats my guess. Big rider protest, and the whole thing falls apart.

[Fixed]

bro I was thinking the same thing when did it happen last was it 97 ?
cheers

[Too Tall]

Turn it into a single stage.

[Russell]

Thats my guess. Big rider protest, and the whole thing falls apart.

That would be a big mistake. Are they going to tell the public they support the status quo? Besides the teams suspended the riders, not the Tour officials. Even though this won't be a "clean" tour, hopefully it will start to move in that direction. Sponsors are going to have to demand it and fans are going to have to stop craving "super-human" results.

[dauwhe]

Turn it into a single stage.

Le Tour Directe! I wonder if Robic has recovered enough from his troubles at RAAM...

Dave, still jubilant at having completed my first 600k!!!

[Steelman]

Thats my guess. Big rider protest, and the whole thing falls apart.

The riders protest police raids and what not, maybe for one stage at the most.

But this is different. There has been a police investigation and their teams have been given the evidence.

Besides that, if they protest now, the sponsors will be even more irate. It ain't going to happen IMHO.

[Ginger]

Just what are they going to protest? That dopers got caught by actual cops and then got suspended from their teams?

[bostondrunk]

Just what are they going to protest? That dopers got caught by actual cops and then got suspended from their teams?

damn straight, sister!
They were suspended without being found guilty of anything!! Due process!! Help me out here Keno!!!!

[MartyE]

damn straight, sister!
They were suspended without being found guilty of anything!! Due process!! Help me out here Keno!!!!

This is European sport not the US court of law.

[Steelman]

damn straight, sister!
They were suspended without being found guilty of anything!! Due process!! Help me out here Keno!!!!

Yeah, but they are enemy combatants. Therefore, they don't have the same rights as you or I.

[Ginger]

damn straight, sister!
They were suspended without being found guilty of anything!! Due process!! Help me out here Keno!!!!

Yeah...but they got suspended from their teams...not by the tour like some riders.

And wouldn't a rider protest basically say: "Hey, we all dope and we think it's ok."

[Serpico]

Just what are they going to protest? That dopers got caught by actual cops and then got suspended from their teams?


+100

great post!

[pbbob]

hincapie was interviewed briefly on cnn this morning. he said he didn't think there would be any kind of rider protest that would disrupt the racing.

[DavidK]

Just what are they going to protest? That dopers got caught by actual cops and then got suspended from their teams?

Lack of due process. It's a witch-hunt right now. Yes get rid of the ones that dope, based on hard evidence... not based on circumstantial stuff. It's not just a black and white thing, it never ever is, and somewhere in those greys are guys who are paying a big price for other people's mistakes.

[GoJavs]

Lack of due process. It's a witch-hunt right now. Yes get rid of the ones that dope, based on hard evidence... not based on circumstantial stuff. It's not just a black and white thing, it never ever is, and somewhere in those greys are guys who are paying a big price for other people's mistakes.
------

Do riders have a legal right to participate in the Tour de France? Do you know what the actual evidence against the folks implicated in Operation Puerto is?

[Fat Robert]

Lack of due process. It's a witch-hunt right now. Yes get rid of the ones that dope, based on hard evidence... not based on circumstantial stuff. It's not just a black and white thing, it never ever is, and somewhere in those greys are guys who are paying a big price for other people's mistakes.

that's the rub. what fuentes was doing ensured that they would pass the uci approved tests. doubtless, there are other doctors with other methods that prevent, or at least minimize the risk, of detection.

so what consitutues hard evidence? positive tests? the matching of blood samples from the tour with the samples from fuentes' fridge (a lot of people must have worked overtime on those)? being caught on video? waiting a year for the legal system to take its course while races are being won on dope?

the problem is that there is no existing "due process" that can address this problem sufficiently -- that is why it has grown to this point. its going to be wild and wooly for a few years, until scientific, legal, and sporting-body protocols are established, coordinated, and put into effect to deal with this mess...until then, its a mess all the way around.

[Ginger]

Lack of due process. and somewhere in those greys are guys who are paying a big price for other people's mistakes.

You're on the job, you supposedly do something against company rules. You get a two day suspension while they hash it out. You get cleared, you get to go back to your job.


Why should these guys be any different? Tell me why what they do makes them so special that the company that employs them can't suspend them like any other company.

I don't buy the "They've worked their whole careers for a shot at the TdF." That's taking it out of an employment situation and putting it into an emotional situation.



The riders are employees of an organization.
If they weren't employees of an organization, they wouldn't have a chance to ride in the TdF (I don't think people get to ride solo do they? No...didn't think so.)
They are said to have broke rules of the organization (whether they had their supervisors support or not...)
They're suspended during the investigation.


Now...who I want to see fired are the coaches and the managers of the teams with doping riders. Kick them out of the sport for life.

That's when cycling will really be cleaning up its act. Just getting rid of the doping riders makes room for more riders for these guys to send to the docs...that's all.

[Serpico]

Lack of due process.

...

there is no due process, riding in the Tour isn't a constitutionally* protected right

they were suspended by their teams, which found the facts/evidence/etc to be significant

their team can sideline them for parting their hair on the wrong side, due process isn't relevant



*which isn't even relevant, because obviously this is an international sport taking place in Europe, but you get my point

[DavidK]

"UCI underlines that the involvement does not mean it is a fact that the riders have committed a doping offence," UCI said in a statement.

And there's the rub... we don't know what the evidence is, and even the UCI is being cautious and covering their ***, we can only guess that they know that some of those being excluded may well not have doped at all. And somewhere in this mess we're losing touch with the concept of innocent until proven guilty. And that is the bit I'm pissed with, the mob mentality, the witch-hunt. Not whether those who have definately doped should start, no they shouldn't, but what may well be happening to the careers of those just caught up in this mess.

Those riders are still human, and their lives are being turned upside down. I have no sympathy for the ones who have doped, they must've known what the risks were, but I have a whole world of sympathy for anyone caught up in it and who hasn't doped.

Of course, that's all atmo.

[flydhest]

somewhere in this mess we're losing touch with the concept of innocent until proven guilty. And that is the bit I'm pissed with, the mob mentality, the witch-hunt. Not whether those who have definately doped should start, no they shouldn't, but what may well be happening to the careers of those just caught up in this mess.

"innocent until proven guilty" ain't got nothin' to do with a business arrangement, does it? Ginger's example is right on. Police officers are suspended from duty frequently pending an investigation. What could make it definate (sic) that someone doped, anyway? Why should the UCI have to follow American jurisprudence in the way it runs its own affairs?

I've said it before, no likey, no buyee.

[christian]

Let's suppose your company requires you to sign a statement that you won't disclose proprietary information to an outside party. The company subsequently receives overwhelming evidence that you did disclose proprietary information to an outside party.

You think the company is going to establish a jury of your peers? No, they're going to fire your ***. Innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with it. These are employees we're talking about, not criminal defendants. They'll have their day in court if and when they face criminal sanctions.

Let me ask another way: If your boss invites you to a meeting at 11:00am, and then decides that he doesn't need you at the 11:00am meeting, do you begin shouting about your rights being abrogated?

- Christian

[Lunar Probe]

yawn

[swoop]

i talked my little 'deep throat' at the tour. he said that the guys are not going to protest... that it's been clearly packaged that there is an abundance of evidence. the prologue will be at full speed.

we'll see.

that being said.. i know at least one team has left even though it was ruled they could stay..

[Grant McLean]

.. i know at least one team has left even though it was ruled they could stay..

Astana-Würth? I know what you mean, but
they don't have enough riders to start under pro-tour rules,
since aparently no subsitutes are being allowed.

A very nice exit strategy to save face for everyone involved.

g