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nmrt
06-17-2016, 02:52 PM
Guys,
I am thinking about making the jump to tubulars (on a carbon rim). After years of being non-commital, I think I am now pretty certain that I will buy a pair of carbon tubulars and mount the tires myself.

I have watched tons of videos on youtube and I come away confused on many aspects. Namely:
1) pre-stretching: should I pre-stretch the tires?
2) how long to pre-stretch the tires?
3) how many glue coats on the rim?
4) do I need to glue coat the tires as well?

The source of my confusion comes from different videos recommending different things on the above procedures. If any of you have a proved method, please let me know. Or if you have a link to a video or a write-up that has worked for you, I would be grateful.
Thanks!

Andy sti
06-17-2016, 03:06 PM
1) Yes
2) as long as you want, min 24 hrs
3) 3
4) Yes, 2 coats

Now how long to wait between coats of glue? You'll find everything from a couple hours to 24 hours.

Final rim coat before you mount the tires. Just let it get a little tacky then go for it!

christian
06-17-2016, 03:48 PM
1) Yes
2) A week? Or 24 hours min.
3) 2 coats on rim + a flash coat just before mounting
4) 2 coats on baselayer of tire.

rchman
06-17-2016, 06:02 PM
I find that Veloflex and Vittoria do not need to be pre-stretched. Continental Sprinters need at least 24 hours and still plan on a frustrating installation.

When installing, insert valve and keep the tire very tight while holding 6" or so on each side. Apply that area first and continue working down as you apply as much moderate stretching pressure as you work around the rim.

Oh, and one other thing, if this is a clean, brand new rim, you need to wipe down with alcohol (or acetone, check the manual) then scuff to give the glue something to hold onto.

MarkC
06-17-2016, 08:24 PM
Conti tubbies.... are a pain in the arse.

Pre-stretch them dry for a week pumped each day or twice a day to 120+ Then pre glue the tires to saturate the base tape and then mount back on the stretcher rims for a day or two to "re-stretch". Then mount on the wheels to be ridden.

Some of these Contis are so stupid tight out of the box can not even dry mount them to the stretcher rims (TT Podiums, recent vintage). A day or two stretch on some clincher rims at 80 or so PSI will stretch them enough to get them onto the sew-up rims for proper stretching.

I don't like to do the old stomp and pull pre-stretch so while the above sounds involved, it works and is a fairly gentle approach. Vittoria and other tires with other brand names on them go a lot easier.

Am a three coats on the rim, two on the tire guy. Depending on the base tape maybe three. Mastik 1 and acid flux brushes using thin coats.

Its not difficult to mount a sew-up, just take your time and do it right.

oldpotatoe
06-18-2016, 07:02 AM
Guys,
I am thinking about making the jump to tubulars (on a carbon rim). After years of being non-commital, I think I am now pretty certain that I will buy a pair of carbon tubulars and mount the tires myself.

I have watched tons of videos on youtube and I come away confused on many aspects. Namely:
1) pre-stretching: should I pre-stretch the tires?
2) how long to pre-stretch the tires?
3) how many glue coats on the rim?
4) do I need to glue coat the tires as well?

The source of my confusion comes from different videos recommending different things on the above procedures. If any of you have a proved method, please let me know. Or if you have a link to a video or a write-up that has worked for you, I would be grateful.
Thanks!

1)yes
2) I stretch a batch for as long as I can...I have 4-5 toasted rims-stretch 4-5 tires..use the longest stretched first.Minimum about 2-3 days I think.
3)do this-new tire and rim(scuff up rim a little with emory paper and clean with acetone)-one right after the other-
Glue tire, glue rim, glue tire, glue rim, glue tire-WAIT until glue doesn't stick to your fingers(about 10-15 minutes)-glue rim-mount tire, add a wee bit of air(like 20 psi)center/roll on floor..

Use a solvent brush, use thin coats, thin coats..edge to edge of base tape.
4)-see above

Been doing this for about 35 years, to my knowledge, never had a tire roll, mine or scads of customers tires...I like Panaracer glue..Vittoria close second. Also Weldwood contact cement.

Put 4 people in a room and ask about gluing tubies-get 5 opinions..many different ways, one thing for sure. the glue and wait 24 hours, then add glue again, then wait another..is complete balderdash..contact cement-no need to do this.

carpediemracing
06-18-2016, 07:09 AM
1) pre-stretching: should I pre-stretch the tires?
2) how long to pre-stretch the tires?
3) how many glue coats on the rim?
4) do I need to glue coat the tires as well?


Keep in mind that when dealing with tight tires it's the tire that's tight. Carbon rims are generally similar in diameter, at least from one batch to another, because molds don't have a wide range of error. Tubular tires have a wider range of variability due to it being a tube that is cut and joined. A tight tubular is usually because of the tire. An extruded aluminum rim has a much wider range of tolerance (length of metal cut and joined), clincher tires have a very narrow range of variability (molded and wire beads are pretty precise), so generally a tight clincher is because of the rim.

1. Pre-stretch - as mentioned above Vittorias don't need pre-stretch. Neither do Bontragers. These are the only two brands I've used in the last 7 or 8 years. I did have some Contis before that (generally prefer the Vittorias) and I don't remember anything about mounting them other than I can never get them straight and Vittorias and Bontragers go on straight without effort. If it's me then I'm just unable to mount tubulars properly but I suspect that Contis (Sprinter, Competition) aren't made straight or their casing is such that they twist easily.
2. No pre-stretch necessary. My fastest glue job on a brand new tire was when I got a call that the Missus was being induced. It was a Thursday, I needed to replace a tire, and I had a race on Sunday (that I was promoting as well as racing so basically I had to be there; only if there was a serious problem with the Missus/baby would I call the race). I ran down into the basement, grabbed a random Vittoria tire (I had maybe 10-15 tires), a tube of glue, and proceeded to glue the tire. It took maybe 10 minutes tops. I'd previously removed the old tire, else it would have taken me much much longer. Somehow I managed to not get glue anywhere, I went to the hospital, and after a day and change no baby. He arrived next week, Sat AM (and yes I left that afternoon to do course prep and Sunday race promotion). Glue job was fine, tire straight, etc.

3. Rim - I usually do a very light coat as a primer, a second coat where I try to cover everything including the narrow bits around the spoke holes, and if I missed anything or I let it sit too long I do a third thin coat, primer thickness. The last coat is partially to introduce some solvent to the glue, esp if I let it sit a while and glue is too dry feeling. If glue is too dry then impossible to adjust tire.

4. Tire - Two coats, light primer kind of coat, then a slightly heavier one. I do a lighter coat again if the tire is too dry.

My take on mounting tubulars in a bit more detail:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-glue-tubular.html

cachagua
06-18-2016, 12:05 PM
Mounting sew-ups, in a few easy steps:

1) Mess it up.
2) Do a slightly better job.
3) Improve a little more.
...
∞) Get pretty half-assed decent at it.

Like piano, or a foreign language, it's not something you learn by watching videos, or (all due respect) by getting advice. Trust yourself, don't expect perfection first time out the gate, start with stuff that matters less (i.e. not your team-pursuit wheels), and MOST of all: enjoy the learning process.

sparky33
06-18-2016, 01:48 PM
3)do this-new tire and rim(scuff up rim a little with emory paper and clean with acetone


done this with alloy rims, is acetone alright for carbon rims too? Or will it upset whatever holds carbon together.

Nevermind update: Zinn reports that Hed and Zipp recommend acetone for carbon rims too.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-carbon-questions_9143

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

slinkywizard
06-18-2016, 02:28 PM
consider skipping the glue and give effetto mariposa's tubular tape a try...very easy to install...have been using it on my LW's with some veloflex carbon's (no stretching needed for those) and has held up great

spartanKid
06-18-2016, 02:45 PM
Another excellent tip I've learned is once you let the coat(s) on the tire dry, stretch it again on a DRY (emphasis on dry) rim.

As the glue dries, the cloth basetape can contract a bit (especially when it's not coated) and undo some of the stretching.

Contis are for sure the worst to mount. Schwalbes seem to not need that much pre-stretch, a day or less seemed to do OK.

weaponsgrade
06-18-2016, 03:43 PM
The key tip for me was inflating the tires as part of the stretching process, i.e., don't just mount the new unglued tire on the rim, but pump it up to like 130psi.

nmrt
06-18-2016, 03:54 PM
Thank you all for the great tips. I think I am soon going to by a pair of carbon tubulars (maybe reynolds thirty two) and dip into the tubular world.

slinkywizard -- good tip on the effetto mariposa's tubular tape. I did not know about it. Might end up trying that as well.

Dead Man
06-18-2016, 04:06 PM
I've never stretched vittorias.. I used to just give it a tug before I glued it, but I haven't even done that for several mountings

I know there are some tires that are tighter, though

So if Vittoria, for me: no stretch, one coat rim, one coAt tire, one more coat rim, mount. No waiting time between any of that

And with mastik one, I'll ride pretty much immediately.. But usually wait an hour

Some people go pretty crazy with the process, taking days to mount their ****.. But in my experience, and as someone on the top-10 leaderboard of all the local major winding mountain descents with nary a rolled tire, it just isn't that complicated.

quattro
05-17-2017, 03:11 PM
I mounted a set of Vittoria Corsa Elite 25mm tubulars to a pair of Novatec Sprint aluminum wheels. The stems on both wheels are not totally seated and stick up a bit. I had stretched the tires of over a month on the wheels, they didn't go on easily, but they did go on and are pretty centered. Should I remove them? Or can I ride on them as they are? Is there a way to get them to mount flush?

Thanks for your suggestions,
quattro

redir
05-17-2017, 03:31 PM
I use the same method as potatoe, you will never roll a tire if you follow those steps.

ONe thing to add is get some blue painters tape or something like that and tape off the rim on the opposite side of the valve, the last part of the rim that you will mount the tire on just in case you make a mess. Then you can peal the tape off and it's nice and clean.

oldpotatoe
05-17-2017, 03:57 PM
I mounted a set of Vittoria Corsa Elite 25mm tubulars to a pair of Novatec Sprint aluminum wheels. The stems on both wheels are not totally seated and stick up a bit. I had stretched the tires of over a month on the wheels, they didn't go on easily, but they did go on and are pretty centered. Should I remove them? Or can I ride on them as they are? Is there a way to get them to mount flush?

Thanks for your suggestions,
quattro

Lotsa glue around stem...once mounted PUSH hard at that spot where valve is or put a weight on the wheel, like I'm doing right now with a 'noisy' corsa elite.

Lionel
05-17-2017, 05:54 PM
Guys,
I am thinking about making the jump to tubulars (on a carbon rim). After years of being non-commital, I think I am now pretty certain that I will buy a pair of carbon tubulars and mount the tires myself.

I have watched tons of videos on youtube and I come away confused on many aspects. Namely:
1) pre-stretching: should I pre-stretch the tires?
2) how long to pre-stretch the tires?
3) how many glue coats on the rim?
4) do I need to glue coat the tires as well?

The source of my confusion comes from different videos recommending different things on the above procedures. If any of you have a proved method, please let me know. Or if you have a link to a video or a write-up that has worked for you, I would be grateful.
Thanks!

Don't over think it, it's not rocket science.

ultraman6970
05-17-2017, 07:52 PM
1st time I see somebody actually putting weight over the stem to flat that area out, what Ive seen is tubular rims that had been sanded or filed in the valve area so the valve sits a few mm lower. Personally never did what potato is showing in the picture ever.

jumphigher
05-17-2017, 09:33 PM
Reading this thread has made me realize that sew-ups are still as much of a hassle as I remember when I rode them in the late 70's. So glad clinchers have come as far as they have now.

bikinchris
05-17-2017, 09:56 PM
I've used the Old Patate method since the 70's and never had a tire roll.

Also, I loved riding tubulars. But I just don't want to spend that much money on tires anymore. And I really don't ever want to cut open or sew together tires and patch tubulars again.

davidb
05-17-2017, 09:58 PM
Do it all the time for customers and my own wheels.
1)No prestretch, just have to be strong. Move with a purpose. Not to say it easy.
2)See above.
3) 4) Two coats on rim with at least 2 hours in between, two coats on tire same amount of time. One last coat on rim to allow tire to slide on.

Things that help, inflate to the max once mounted. Ride them around with little braking and cornering. Then you know right away if things are lumpy or twisted. The tire can still be deflated and moved on the rim.

They must sit at least 24 hours before anyone rides them. No exceptions here.

I will be they first to say they are going to be really hard to get off.

djdj
05-17-2017, 10:13 PM
Quattro:

Were the valves seated well before you glued them? If no, then you may need to trim the base tape slightly around the valve. I've never had to do that but heard of others who have.

If the valves were seated well when stretching, then the problem is the mounting method ("that's what she said"). It may have popped up while mounting.

IMO, the tire should be slightly inflated before mounting -- enough to give it shape without rolling over. Maybe 20 psi. Push down on the tire at the valve with one hand while stretching and mounting the tire with the other, several inches to each side of the valve. If the valve is threaded, you can also add a nut and screw it tightly while mounting the rest of the tire.

If the tire doesn't hop and isn't noisy, then ignore what I just said and ride it. Good luck.:beer:

fogrider
05-18-2017, 03:25 AM
Don't over think it, it's not rocket science.

+1. there is no try, only do.

oldpotatoe
05-18-2017, 03:46 AM
Reading this thread has made me realize that sew-ups are still as much of a hassle as I remember when I rode them in the late 70's. So glad clinchers have come as far as they have now.

YMMV, I guess..I see no compelling reason to own any clinchers and not trying to ignite a clinchers vs tubie thread..not really a hassle, certainly not on the order of some tubeless with 'goop'...IMHO, of course.

quattro
05-18-2017, 07:01 AM
Quattro:

Were the valves seated well before you glued them? If no, then you may need to trim the base tape slightly around the valve. I've never had to do that but heard of others who have.

If the valves were seated well when stretching, then the problem is the mounting method ("that's what she said"). It may have popped up while mounting.

IMO, the tire should be slightly inflated before mounting -- enough to give it shape without rolling over. Maybe 20 psi. Push down on the tire at the valve with one hand while stretching and mounting the tire with the other, several inches to each side of the valve. If the valve is threaded, you can also add a nut and screw it tightly while mounting the rest of the tire.

If the tire doesn't hop and isn't noisy, then ignore what I just said and ride it. Good luck.:beer:

The valves seemed to be seated well before install. Per oldpotatoe, I have added more glue around the valve stem and put plastic ties around the tire on both sides of the stem and tightened, I'll see how they look when I remove them this afternoon, if ok, I'll give them a test ride. Otherwise the tires are glued ok everywhere else.
Thanks,
quattro

oldpotatoe
05-18-2017, 07:13 AM
The valves seemed to be seated well before install. Per oldpotatoe, I have added more glue around the valve stem and put plastic ties around the tire on both sides of the stem and tightened, I'll see how they look when I remove them this afternoon, if ok, I'll give them a test ride. Otherwise the tires are glued ok everywhere else.
Thanks,
quattro

Gotta mention, mine made some noise as the wheel rotated while riding. If they didn't, I wouldn't have added more glue. How it 'looks' doesn't really bother me. :)

El Chaba
05-18-2017, 07:24 AM
WRT getting the valve area properly glued.....Some tires are worse than others and it depends upon the individual making the tire as they are assembled by hand. To keep the tire from having a bump at the valve-because the valve basically creates an area of two missed stitches, the stitches on either side of the valve must be extra tight. This sometimes makes a pucker on the bottom of the tire next to the valve. The best way to take care of this issue is to put in something to take up the space. If there is one good use for tubular tape, this is it. Get a roll or two of the stuff to have on hand and cut off a couple of short sections a couple of centimeters long and attach them to the rim on either side of the valve stem. Proceed with your normal gluing procedure. You can glue right over top of the rim tape sections. Problem solved.

quattro
05-18-2017, 11:21 AM
The valves seemed to be seated well before install. Per oldpotatoe, I have added more glue around the valve stem and put plastic ties around the tire on both sides of the stem and tightened, I'll see how they look when I remove them this afternoon, if ok, I'll give them a test ride. Otherwise the tires are glued ok everywhere else.
Thanks,
quattro

Well, I removed the zip ties late this morning and the stems are pretty well seated now. Hopefully I'll get to take them out for a ride this afternoon.

Thanks for the replies and recommendations.

quattro

false_Aest
05-18-2017, 11:28 AM
Welcome.

Now lower your tire pressure by 10psi.

quattro
05-18-2017, 11:32 AM
Welcome.

Now lower your tire pressure by 10psi.

I'm running my front at 85psi and the rear at 90psi, do you suggest lower tire pressure?

chiasticon
05-18-2017, 12:36 PM
certainly no expert so I would defer to those who've been doing it for decades. but a couple points from my experience:

- acetone and scuffing with carbon: I do acetone but not scuffing. I've read it's bad for the carbon and manufacturers don't recommend it. the main idea with scuffing is to expose extra texture for the glue to adhere to, but you can't really do that with carbon unless you're really going at it, and that's basically damaging it. from my undersanding, at least...
- layers: I use two each on tire and rim, then a layer on rim that just sits until it's not wet, before mounting. for road tires, that's it. cx tires get cx tape on the rim after the first layer too.
- stretching: I stretch as long as possible generally. haven't tried contis yet but Veloflex you don't need to stretch at all. they're super simple to get on. fire a little air into them and they seem to center themselves.
- time: I'll usually let the first layer soak into the base tape for a day, if possible. after that, I just go back and forth between rim and tire. not sure if the waiting is necessary, but I enjoy the whole process so spreading it out for a couple days is fine.
- mounting: after being 100% sure I'm happy with the centering, I'll deflate and roll the tire slowly on a broomstick, placing all of my weight on each bit as I rotate it. not sure if this helps with the valve stem issue mentioned, but I haven't run into that yet.
- cleanliness: for a clean/new rim, I put electrical tape around the circumference of the rim on both sides. then I can get sloppy with the glue if I want to and make sure it's edge-to-edge. call me a Nancy or a newb, if you like. it's mainly down to just being a perfectionist and wanting the braking surface to look good, be free of glue, and not have to spend time cleaning it up after the fact.

classtimesailer
05-18-2017, 02:49 PM
Reading this thread has made me realize that sew-ups are still as much of a hassle as I remember when I rode them in the late 70's. So glad clinchers have come as far as they have now.

But clinchers were too easy so somebody came up with the idea of tubeless clinchers which are every bit the hassle of tubulars. :)

false_Aest
05-18-2017, 04:06 PM
I'm running my front at 85psi and the rear at 90psi, do you suggest lower tire pressure?

I'm 165 and running 75/80 on 700x26m

Whooot!

Clean39T
05-19-2017, 04:08 PM
Question: how do you know when your tubulars need to be re-glued? I bought a pair of HED Stinger 4s locally that are in great shape, including the tires, and were professionally glued...set was a spare for a female pro...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170519/f32386e2d3c3470f9a5a77a1b1e96475.jpg

false_Aest
05-19-2017, 07:59 PM
try to push them off.

if they pull up... pull them off and re-glue.

jumphigher
05-19-2017, 10:44 PM
But clinchers were too easy so somebody came up with the idea of tubeless clinchers which are every bit the hassle of tubulars. :)

Seriously, lol.

oldpotatoe
05-20-2017, 09:20 AM
Question: how do you know when your tubulars need to be re-glued? I bought a pair of HED Stinger 4s locally that are in great shape, including the tires, and were professionally glued...set was a spare for a female pro...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170519/f32386e2d3c3470f9a5a77a1b1e96475.jpg

Air them and try to push off with you thumbs..pretty obvious..may be a small 'p' professional job..;)

sparky33
05-20-2017, 10:44 AM
Just piping in here...
I've had good results with the oldpotatoe method of rapidly alternating rim and tire (Mastik) glue layers and getting a pair of wheels finished in well under an hour. Gluing tubulars isn't difficult or complicated. It works.

Though recently I experimented with E.M. Carogna tape on a set of carbon tubs with Corsa tires. It works just like you see on YouTube videos. Mounting the tires took twenty minutes starting with a new-never-glued rim. The tires are stuck on there plenty. Pros: simple, quick, no toxic fumes, easy to get the tire centered before adhering. Cons: Cargona tape is more expensive ($20x2) and slightly heavier (10-20g per wheel) than glue.

In sum, these are both good options for road tubs. Though it is worth noting that some report mixed results for Carogna tape with cx tubs where the width and stresses are dissimilar.

bikinchris
05-29-2017, 03:14 PM
One more point. If you are worried about rolling a tire, use 3M weatherstrip and trim adhesive. It's made for gluing things like carpet to the floor and rubber weatherstrips to door jambs. But know that you will have to really work to get the tire off again.
I used tubulars very briefly on the road (just a few flats made me see that it wasn't in my budget), but always used tubulars on the track. I used 3M adhesive later and until I quit racing.
On second thought, maybe you shouldn't think of it for carbon rims. It might damage it getting the tire off.