does the public care if cyclist use p.e.d.s?

[Fixed]

bro I think not. I think they want a show a good watch . I think they think all pros in all sports are on something . i.m.h.o.
cheers

[67-59]

On one level, I'd agree that it shouldn't matter as long as the races are entertaining.

But when you think further about it there are lots of the problems. First, some riders seem to be able to get away with more than others. If the difference between winning and losing really is just a competition between the docs, I'm less interested in watching.

I'm also concerned about the argument that "these guys know what they're getting into, so they should be able to take what they want." The reality is that a young cyclist might NOT know how necessary it is to take drugs until they have already committed many hours of training to become a professional cyclist. Then, when they're already committed, they learn. At this point, is it really a "voluntary" decision to take them? Let's see, I can either continue with my life's dream by taking drugs that could jeopardize my health and get me banned for life. Or I can refuse to take them, and either lose every race I ride, or quit altogether. Some "choice".

So yes, it really is an issue, and the UCI should continue to do whatever they can to combat their use. The test should be whether a particular drug can reasonably be expected to jeopardize the athlete's health. Things like EPO, steroids and other drugs that do have adverse effects should be banned. Otherwise, the next aspiring young cyclist (YOUR son or daughter?) could be put into the untenable situation of having to "choose" whether to use them and jeopardize their health, or to abandon their dream. Drugs that wouldn't reasonably be expected to jeopardize the athlete's health should not be banned. Isn't this the distinction that UCI generally uses?

[Bill Bove]

Should the public care?

I think yes. Sports stars, for better or worse are looked upon as role models by our young. As such is the messege we want to give them is it's O.K. to bend the rules in our favor? Shouldn't we be raising our kids to believe in both the spirit of fair competition and the letter of the law.

I may be alone on this :crap:

[William]

Should the public care?

I think yes. Sports stars, for better or worse are looked upon as role models by our young. As such is the messege we want to give them is it's O.K. to bend the rules in our favor? Shouldn't we be raising our kids to believe in both the spirit of fair competition and the letter of the law.

I may be alone on this :crap:

Actually I just posted this in another thread a little while ago but it fits here...

As far as sport figures as role models go, I think Charles Barkley put it rather well:

Mr. Barkley says: "I am not a role model. I am not paid to be a role model. I am paid to wreak havoc on the basketball court." Mr. Barkley points out that "parents should be role models" and notes that his ability to dunk a basketball does not make him fit to raise America's children.


William

[atmo]

should we care?

we get the leaders we settle for and the
and that goes for the heroes too. why is
anyone anywhere talking about this issue
before his/her own house is in order.

i speed, fudge on taxes, surf some really
interesting websites, tell a white lie every
now and then, and even use bach's rescue
remedy before race starts.

is there a single post-er here that is on one
hand blasphemin' the bike racers and on the
other hand not pirating software or fantasizing
about someone else's squeeze atmo.

it's ludicrous and hypocritical to think sports
doesn't mirror our own personal lives.

[swoop]

*if my head explodes and there is no one there to hear it. does it make a sound?

[atmo]

*if my head explodes and there is no one there to hear it. does it make a sound?


if i in fact do hear it, i'll get the clap with one hand atmo.

[stevep]

*if my head explodes and there is no one there to hear it. does it make a sound?

i heard the pop.
not much in there was there?

[Bill Bove]

All good points atmo, and true. But what I'm realy trying to get at is yes we should care about the image we all present to our kids. we, as a whole, all of mankind and unkind should try to be better human beings. we all treat each other here with respect, we should try to do that in more of our everyday lives too. to quote Michael Jackson, I'm going to change the world and I'm going to start with the man in the mirror. Shouldn't we try?

That all being said, i'll still cheat on my taxes, look at porn and attack when the yellow jersey calls for a nature stop :D

[William]

*if my head explodes and there is no one there to hear it. does it make a sound?

;)

[catulle]

should we care?


is there a single post-er here that is on one
hand blasphemin' the bike racers and on the
other hand not pirating software or fantasizing
about someone else's squeeze atmo.

.

Yeah, but who can blame me, atmo? Besides, that will no longer be a problem when in Provo, will it?

[atmo]

All good points atmo, and true. But what I'm realy trying to get at is yes we should care about the image we all present to our kids. we, as a whole, all of mankind and unkind should try to be better human beings. we all treat each other here with respect, we should try to do that in more of our everyday lives too. to quote Michael Jackson, I'm going to change the world and I'm going to start with the man in the mirror. Shouldn't we try?

That all being said, i'll still cheat on my taxes, look at porn and attack when the yellow jersey calls for a nature stop :D

our parents did okay.
we're fine.
your kids will be fine too.

[Ginger]

Hold it...how many kids in the US watch cycling?

I don't watch many pro sports. I don't feel the need to support the industry in that manner. I do like to watch cycling...but I feel sad to know that some of those guys are sending themselves to an early death with the drugs they're taking. Sure...they know the short term blood sludge problems. But really...no one really knows the long term effects of some of the mixes these people take. The drugs haven't been around that long. Heck, they won't really know the effects for 10-20 years.

[Fixed]

bro if I was 20 year old and a great cyclist and could be a pro live in europe make good money .. take a shot a pill whatever and a doc. was giving .. let's see ..do that or go back to be a bike mess.. and race on some dumb local club/team
cheers

[catulle]

*if my head explodes and there is no one there to hear it. does it make a sound?

Ok, hummm, er, according to XXth century French philosophy, in terms of being-in-itself there is a sound indeed if the combustion is such that generates a sound. However, in terms of being-for-others, there won't be a sound to generate a moral consequence like sorrow, a response in "mauvaise foi" or for an idiot to say: Wow, man, that was groovy, man... Of course, ultimately, it all depends upon what's in your head, atmo.

[catulle]

our parents did okay.
we're fine.
your kids will be fine too.

Scarlett's parents did OK, and our children will do OK too, atmo.

[atmo]

Hold it...how many kids in the US watch cycling?

I don't watch many pro sports. I don't feel the need to support the industry in that manner. I do like to watch cycling...but I feel sad to know that some of those guys are sending themselves to an early death with the drugs they're taking. Sure...they know the short term blood sludge problems. But really...no one really knows the long term effects of some of the mixes these people take. The drugs haven't been around that long. Heck, they won't really know the effects for 10-20 years.

ya know i betchoo they'd be at disadvantage even without
a single drug. the profession as it stands taxes a human being
far more that i'd believe is "good" for good health and wellbeing.
can a medical guy comment please?
if bicycle racing as we know it to be in europe were clean as
a whistle, i'd wager these guys would still live out their lives
in a compromised state of health.


did i just say the same thing twice atmo?

[bcm119]

This topic is a sound-off for the moral high grounders atmo. Theres a million and one (1,000,001) things that could be considered "wrong", and most of us partake in many of these things every day... but this one is a clear and present danger so to speak, its an opportunity to blab about how wrong it is. In reality its part of such a huge and complex nexus of social/economic/cultural factors that its rarely constructive to talk about it as an individual phenomenon. Atmo.

[manet]

*if my head explodes and there is no one there to hear it. does it make a sound?

has a head exploding ever not made a sound

[catulle]

ya know i betchoo they'd be at disadvantage even without
a single drug. the profession as it stands taxes a human being
far more that i'd believe is "good" for good health and wellbeing.
can a medical guy comment please?
if bicycle racing as we know it to be in europe were clean as
a whistle, i'd wager these guys would still live out their lives
in a compromised state of health.


did i just say the same thing twice atmo?

You're 100% correct, Professor Atmo. I ain't no medic and I feel a little lazy today, but I've written copiously about heart rate zones, VO2Max and so on... Of course, it is extremely wreckless to take my word for it, but exposing the body to so much stress will most certainly result in nefarious consequences, atmo. I mean, I say it, and it is also common sense, atmo.

[CarbonCycles]

Man I love P.E.Z.S...greatest thing on earth esp the dispensers...wait, you're talking about P.E.D.S. Those can be fun to, but that's what I've been told.

[Kevan]

We give procyclists stage names like "Mallet John", "Andre's Giant", "Bottom Bracket Bertha" names of that ilk, and then we can get past all of this other stuff. Look at the WWE... the fans aren't complaining knowing their sport's a farce. Are they??? They all are still screaming, "Kill!", whippin' the bird at anyone willing to receive it. They paint letters on their bare torsos, and still make beautiful posters that read, "Snap his spin!" They all seem to get along just fine.

What could be better than that? We need to rethink our sport.

[zeroking17]

I used to say that I "could care less." Now I say that I "couldn't care less."

[J.Greene]

should we care?

we get the leaders we settle for and the
and that goes for the heroes too. why is
anyone anywhere talking about this issue
before his/her own house is in order.

i speed, fudge on taxes, surf some really
interesting websites, tell a white lie every
now and then, and even use bach's rescue
remedy before race starts.

is there a single post-er here that is on one
hand blasphemin' the bike racers and on the
other hand not pirating software or fantasizing
about someone else's squeeze atmo.

it's ludicrous and hypocritical to think sports
doesn't mirror our own personal lives.

Oh sh&t, I just realized you got the goods on me with those interesting web sites. No more hipocracy here atmo. No more dope posts, going out to mitre tubes.

JG

[jasont]

If I was convinced nobody did it except those caught, I'd care.

[atmo]

Oh sh&t, I just realized you got the goods on me with those interesting web sites. No more hipocracy here atmo. No more dope posts, going out to mitre tubes.

JG
you're safe.
we slept together.
twice atmo.

[zeroking17]

you're safe.
we slept together.
twice atmo.


Biosphere?

[J.Greene]

you're safe.
we slept together.
twice atmo.

yeah, but not on the first date

JG

[Grant McLean]

This topic is a sound-off for the moral high grounders atmo. Theres a million and one (1,000,001) things that could be considered "wrong", and most of us partake in many of these things every day... but this one is a clear and present danger so to speak, its an opportunity to blab about how wrong it is. In reality its part of such a huge and complex nexus of social/economic/cultural factors that its rarely constructive to talk about it as an individual phenomenon. Atmo.


There have been several posts referring to "moral high grounders",
and i'm not sure if that's a polite/not so polite way of describing
someone with the impertinence to say that doping isn't a good idea?

You know, it's not such a complex idea. Does anyone have to trust you?
In a room full of cash, does some go missing? It's not so grey as
some here suggest. It doesn't matter if anyone knows, you know.

My notion is simple, self interest. People need to find happiness doing
the right thing. Getting away with something isn't fun for long.
Unless it's having a extra marital affair with Scarlett...

g

[atmo]

This topic is a sound-off for the moral high grounders atmo. Theres a million and one (1,000,001) things that could be considered "wrong", and most of us partake in many of these things every day... but this one is a clear and present danger so to speak, its an opportunity to blab about how wrong it is. In reality its part of such a huge and complex nexus of social/economic/cultural factors that its rarely constructive to talk about it as an individual phenomenon. Atmo.
what should we do?
stop following all sports?
stop following sports that california governors made movies (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076578/) about?
do we cease spending on every product tethered to these sports and
bleed the sponsors dry atmo?

[Grant McLean]

what should we do?
stop following all sports?
stop following sports that california governors made movies (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076578/) about?
do we cease spending on every product tethered to these sports and
bleed the sponsors dry atmo?


I've got no idea.

Like heroin killing jazz muscians, it's just a big waste.
Doping doesn't make the sport ...excuse me...entertainment any better.
It's just getting harder for me to happily ignore.

g

[sailorboy]

ya know i betchoo they'd be at disadvantage even without
a single drug. the profession as it stands taxes a human being
far more that i'd believe is "good" for good health and wellbeing.
can a medical guy comment please?
if bicycle racing as we know it to be in europe were clean as
a whistle, i'd wager these guys would still live out their lives
in a compromised state of health.


did i just say the same thing twice atmo?

You're right about the taxing the human body thing. I'm a 'medical guy' but my observations on this are more from anecdotal evidence and some personal experience with racing, especially my triathlon days. How about looking at the Ironman as a good example of an extreme; Anyone remember the footage of Mark Allen's wife (forgot her name) finishing that race one year with at least two of her bodily functions streaming out of her shorts? Or Paula Newby-Fraser almost dying out on the course one year? There was also a professional guy a few years back whose name also escapes me, who went so far into his reserves that part of his small intestine became ischemic for long enough to kill it, requiring surgical removal and a colostomy bag hanging off him. Does this sound like causing harm to oneself? Probably more than taking a couple of well-regulated and supervised doses of PEDs IMO. Oh yea, can't forget Jim Fixx either right? Fitness guru who died of a heart attack while jogging. I pretty much don't care about the helth risks for athletes taking drugs, thats up to them. The ethical/cheating side is a more sticky issue, and as someone else pointed out, if you are worried about your kids wanting to do it because their heroes do it, then you might need to look into your parenting skills rather than blaming someone else.

On another note, seeing Congress spend any amount of time trying to "clean up baseball" is an absolute travesty and offensive to any American IMO. Don't we have more important issues for them to worry about?

[atmo]

The ethical/cheating side is a more sticky issue, and as someone else pointed out, if you are worried about your kids wanting to do it because their heroes do it, then you might need to look into your parenting skills rather than blaming someone else.

awesome. worth shouting -
"The ethical/cheating side is a more sticky issue, and as someone else pointed out, if you are worried about your kids wanting to do it because their heroes do it, then you might need to look into your parenting skills rather than blaming someone else."

[Ginger]

Don't we have more important issues for them to worry about?

Yes. But even powerful government officials want to dabble in the arena of national celebrity.

[manet]

...

[davids]

Ooh. Racing stripes on the toilet paper.

To address fixed's question, I think the American public (at least) cares more about the shet that cyclists are taking than the races they're winning. atmo.

[sailorboy]

Yes. But even powerful government officials want to dabble in the arena of national celebrity.
That and/or to avoid the painful reality of their general failure to really solve important stuff for you and me; and to distract us from what they have already screwed up.

[Ginger]

You know what's sad...Manet stated something I've been thinking for a while... I think that the "general public" has more concern about a pro athletes intake of drugs than about the drugs they put into their own bodies.



Seems to me that there was a recent Texas study showing levels of prozac in ponds and streams that received water from treatment facilities...pardon me, but for there to be measurable amounts of prozac in water from city water treatment facilities there has to be a huge number of people out there on the stuff...some people really need the stuff...I understand that...

[Fixed]

bro that is one reason they don't care ... pharm. ads on the t.v. all the time it's no big deal . i.m.h.o.
cheers

[atmo]

You know what's sad...Manet stated something I've been thinking for a while... I think that the "general public" has more concern about a pro athletes intake of drugs than about the drugs they put into their own bodies.

similar wrt how we are so concerned with their
"cheating" versus how we do not cop to our own
indiscretions all day long.

i ogled a really cute teenaged skateboarder in
town today while going to the post office. bad
bad e-RICHIE atmo.

[manet]

...

[obtuse]

similar wrt how we are so concerned with their
"cheating" versus how we do not cop to our own
indiscretions all day long.

i ogled a really cute teenaged skateboarder in
town today while going to the post office. bad
bad e-RICHIE atmo.


did you buy him six pack of natural ice and let things go from there? that's what a sexy doctor ferrari would have done.

obtuse

[bcm119]

what should we do?
stop following all sports?
stop following sports that california governors made movies (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076578/) about?
do we cease spending on every product tethered to these sports and
bleed the sponsors dry atmo?
What am I going to do? Nothing- I'm going to continue watching bike racing and that technically makes me part of the problem.

Grant, I hear ya, and I agree totally, but I'm not a pro cyclist. It is a "moral" issue at its heart, but its also an opportunity for people to preach and play the blame game, and I don't think thats constructive. We all know right from wrong, the issue is why theres such incentive to choose the "wrong", and why its strong enough to overcome the "right". Are there anxiety-producing feelings of guilt in the peleton? Who knows? Who knows to what degree the "right" succumbs to the "wrong"? Its not a simple issue, and preaching about the sin of it all isn't helping, atmo.

[BBB]

From another perspective. There's rules attached to the use of this forum - does it really matter if one of us breaks those rules? Do other users care? Maybe, maybe not. Will it harm our hosts? Maybe, maybe not. Yes it is obviously very different than pro cycling in that use of this forum is not a career and it does not require considerable sacrifice. But what's the point of rules if no one is going to respect or abide by them? They become meaningless. This applies equally to inter-net forums as it does to pro cycling as it does to driving your car down the street. I don't see the drugs in cycling or drugs in sport issue as being one involving sin, nor do I have an answer for it, but at the end of the day it is a total disregard for the rules of the game and if this is okay or deemed to be okay (cause its hard, because everyone else does, because of the pressure to perform etc), then this speaks volumes. Yeah it is just a 'sport' and not life and death, but where does the alternative take us?

[atmo]

<snipped> I don't see the drugs in cycling or drugs in sport issue as being one sin, nor do I have an answer for it, but at the end of the day it is a total disregard for the rules of the game and if this is okay or deemed to be okay (cause its hard, because everyone else does, because of the pressure to perform etc), then this speaks volumes. Yeah it is just a 'sport' and not life and death, but where does the alternative take us?

that's easy atmo-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/plotsummary

[BBB]

Indeed - "Corporations are now the leaders of the world, as well as the controllers of the people."

[Grant McLean]

that's easy atmo-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073631/plotsummary


what is it with these movies supposed to be set waaaay in the future
suddenly being around the corner. Rollerball with be reality before
I see my next red bike.

:) :)

g

[bcm119]

what is it with these movies supposed to be set waaaay in the future
suddenly being around the corner. Rollerball with be reality before
I see my next red bike.

:) :)

g
Thats irrelevant; before Rollerball becomes reality all bikes will be black, with integrated seatposts

[Ginger]

Unfortunately, she was 35.
I hear that happens when you get up in years. They look *so* young when they aren't.


(and hey, I'm not saying I'm perfectly in tune with my world...I'm just saying a lot of people complain about others doing the very things that they do every day without thought...)



similar wrt how we are so concerned with their
"cheating" versus how we do not cop to our own
indiscretions all day long.

i ogled a really cute teenaged skateboarder in
town today while going to the post office. bad
bad e-RICHIE atmo.

[oracle]

i personally don't have a big problem with the p.e.d.ophiles.

[victoryfactory]

"I've never had a problem with drugs. I've had problems with the police."
-Keith Richards


Posted on cyclingnews.com:

More names released in Operación Puerto

Spanish newspaper El Pais has published more names among the 58 riders involved in Operación Puerto. The list, which comes from the Spanish Civil Guard's official report on the doping probe, contains several big names, and there is a strong possibility that the Tour de France could be raced with a very different list of favourites.

Cyclingnews sources say that Spanish authorities have obtained blood tests from last year's Tour and compared them to the names on this list in order to confirm the matches to the blood found in the blood bags.

El Pais has alleged that Jan Ullrich, Roberto Heras, Oscar Sevilla, Joseba Beloki, Santiago Botero, Santi Pérez, Tyler Hamilton, Quique Gutierrez and Angel Edo are all mentioned in the 500 page report that will be delivered to the Spanish Secretary of State for Sport, Jaime Lissavetsky. In addition, De Telegraaf mentions that Rabobank riders Denis Menchov and Juan-Antonio Flecha are on the list, and other sources have mentioned Ivan Basso and Francisco Mancebo. All the riders questioned by journalists so far have denied any involvement in the affair.

Lissavetsky will fly to Strasbourg on Friday to meet French counterpart Jean-François Lamour to discuss the affair before the start of the Tour.

[67-59]

as someone else pointed out, if you are worried about your kids wanting to do it because their heroes do it, then you might need to look into your parenting skills rather than blaming someone else.

I was the person who brought up the example of one's children being confronted with this situation. But if you interpreted the statement to mean that I'm "worried" my kids would take the drugs, you totally missed the point. My point was that it is wrong that a person could spend many years trying to become a pro cyclist, and then be confronted with the untenable choice of having to take the drugs or quit the sport. I'm quite comfortable with the parenting my kids have received, and believe they'd choose to quit. But should they really have to make that choice?