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SoCalSteve
06-16-2016, 07:00 PM
Hi all,

A complete Red 22 ETap group showed up on my doorstep today. I am still waiting on a few components for the Kirk to complete the build ( ENVE stem, ENVE aero bars and the ENVE computer mount ). I did have a chance to install the complete drivetrain though ( minus wiring up the brakes ).

First impression: there are no wires....:banana:

That's all I got for now. Pictures to follow when complete.

chiasticon
06-16-2016, 07:10 PM
best. review. ever.

Tony
06-16-2016, 07:47 PM
Looking forward to your review!

unterhausen
06-16-2016, 08:34 PM
can you speak to your opinion of the colorway?

vqdriver
06-17-2016, 12:10 AM
Hows the feedback when pressing the paddles? Di2 is too subtle for my taste. Campy was better but not as clacky as their mech shifting. Etap?

bfd
06-17-2016, 12:25 AM
Did you have to synchronize the shifters with the derailleurs? If so, was it difficult or tricky? Or did it just work after you mounted it and charged the batteries?!

Friend if mine has a trek with etap and said it took all of two seconds to learn?!

Good Luck!

pdmtong
06-17-2016, 12:49 AM
if you want to know about eTAP ask someone who has already installed it and ridden it

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=187178

vqdriver
06-17-2016, 01:07 AM
Theres a youtube video on the setup. Fear it not

oldpotatoe
06-17-2016, 06:51 AM
Hi all,

A complete Red 22 ETap group showed up on my doorstep today. I am still waiting on a few components for the Kirk to complete the build ( ENVE stem, ENVE aero bars and the ENVE computer mount ). I did have a chance to install the complete drivetrain though ( minus wiring up the brakes ).

First impression: there are no wires....:banana:

That's all I got for now. Pictures to follow when complete.

are batteries included?

bcroslin
06-17-2016, 07:51 AM
very interested to hear your opinion. I'm riding a SRAM group for the first time in years and it works great. etap makes perfect sense to me and even the shifting makes sense.

Bob Ross
06-17-2016, 08:51 AM
etap makes perfect sense to me and even the shifting makes sense.

I can't imagine eTap shifting ever making sense to me...but I'm starting to think of a couple scenarios where it would be worth owning irrespective of how unintuitive their scheme is:

- my coupled travel bike. Not having any wires would make packing & building far less of an ordeal than it currently is.
- winter riding when wearing thick heavy mittens.

So I'm reluctantly-but-eagarly perusing the ride reports and end-user comments.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 09:19 AM
can you speak to your opinion of the colorway?

The color way is, ummm, very colorful...:crap:

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 09:21 AM
Hows the feedback when pressing the paddles? Di2 is too subtle for my taste. Campy was better but not as clacky as their mech shifting. Etap?

I have not ever touched EPS, but have spent many years riding DI2 and the ETap shifters have a much more positive engagement and a pretty loud " click ", not at all subtle.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 09:22 AM
Did you have to synchronize the shifters with the derailleurs? If so, was it difficult or tricky? Or did it just work after you mounted it and charged the batteries?!

Friend if mine has a trek with etap and said it took all of two seconds to learn?!

Good Luck!

Yes, you had to set it up, but it took moments. Seriously. It's very simple to set up. And, I also added the blip shifters. Still, the whole setup took no time at all and is very simple to do.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 09:25 AM
are batteries included?

Batteries are included and already installed. Also, if you have a Garmin Edge 1000 or 520, you can see a gauge of all 4 battery levels. You can also see what gears you are on the screen. And, unlike DI2, there is no extra parts or expense to install for it to connect to the computer. It's also wireless.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 09:28 AM
very interested to hear your opinion. I'm riding a SRAM group for the first time in years and it works great. etap makes perfect sense to me and even the shifting makes sense.

My riding buddy ( for more than 10 years now ) is how we say a bit less than mechanical...when I explained to him the shifting protocol, he immediately got it and said how intuitive it sounded.

I will hold off judgement until I ride it a few times. But, it makes sense and works well when I was setting up the drivetrain in the stand.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 09:30 AM
I can't imagine eTap shifting ever making sense to me...but I'm starting to think of a couple scenarios where it would be worth owning irrespective of how unintuitive their scheme is:

- my coupled travel bike. Not having any wires would make packing & building far less of an ordeal than it currently is.
- winter riding when wearing thick heavy mittens.

So I'm reluctantly-but-eagarly perusing the ride reports and end-user comments.

Not sure why you would say that it wouldn't make sense. Have you tried it or even thought it out? It's actually very simple and logical. But again, I need to actually ride it a few times to see if this holds true in the real world.

Still waiting on parts to finish the build.

benb
06-17-2016, 09:34 AM
I am sure I'm going to try it at some point.. the shifting mechanism sounds great and the ergonomics sound great with just the one paddle on each side.. you already have to adjust how you shift when you switch between campy <-> shimano <-> sram mechanical groups and even between the mechanical and electronic groups from a given manufacturer eTap does not sound like a hard adjustment at all to me.

When I rode Di2 on a test ride I had summer gloves on but it looked really bad for winter gloves.. buttons too close together, so eTaps setup is really appealing to me. If I was going to try electronic no way I want to do wires if I don't have to.

ptourkin
06-17-2016, 09:34 AM
You'd be amazed how quick you adapt to things. When I was a young enlisted guy stationed in Bangkok and had just arrived, I was told to jump in the Landcruiser and pick up some gear. They drive on the other side and the vehicle was manual. I drove out and did my thing. It wasn't until I got back that I realized I was using my left hand to shift.

A lot of us switch between Shimano, SRAM and Campy every day. It's unconscious.

benb
06-17-2016, 09:38 AM
Also for the rear derailleur eTap works just like most of the flappy paddle car transmissions.. it's not like they pulled the right side/left side thing out of thin air.

Mark McM
06-17-2016, 10:57 AM
My riding buddy ( for more than 10 years now ) is how we say a bit less than mechanical...when I explained to him the shifting protocol, he immediately got it and said how intuitive it sounded.

Simple and intuitive can often be good. But sometimes making something too simple requires eliminating functionality. And also sometimes what is "intuitive" depends on your frame of reference. I often shift multiple sprockets at a time in the back, and also sometimes shift front and rear simultaneously, and I think I'd miss the functionality if I switched to E-tap.

I started riding when friction down tube shifters were the norm. With this style of shifters, there is a single lever for each derailleur, and moving the lever in different directions made the derailleurs move in different directions. I could shift multiple sprockets with one lever movement, and by using my index finger on one lever and my thumb on the other, I could shifter front and rear simultaneously. Brakes were a completely different set of levers.

When I went from down tube shifters to brifters, I found Campagnolo Ergo shifters more intuitive than Shimano STI. With Ergo shifters, just as with down tube shifters, the right shifter shifted the rear derailleur, the left shifter shifted the front derailleur, and the brake levers were a completely different set of levers. Further, when I pushed a shift lever to the left, the derailleur moved to the left. When I pushed a shift lever to the right, the derailleur moved to the right, unlike STI shifters, where the levers for each derailleur moved in the same direction for shifting both up and down. Also unlike with STI levers, the derailleurs moved immediately and proportional to lever travel (STI upshifts only happen after you release the lever, and you can only upshift one sprocket at a time). Since I already knew how derailleurs worked, operating the derailleurs with Ergo shifters was obvious and intuitive, and more intuitive than STI levers.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - E-tap is probably intuitive to people who aren't experienced with derailleur gearing, while other shifters may be more intuitive who already have experience with derailleur gearing.

I have become more and more convinced that bicycles are designed primarily for the "parking lot test ride" than they are for intensive real work usage. A prime example is Shimano's attempt to push reverse action derailleurs (first called "low normal", and then called "rapid rise"). When brand new, these derailleurs operate very smoothly and quietly, even with an unexperienced rider jabbing at the levers. But as the wear in, and as cables develop more friction, the reverse action derailleurs become hesitant and balky, and shift poorly under load. In other words, they were designed to work best during an initial test ride by a prospective buyer, rather than under the rigors of actual usage.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 11:13 AM
Simple and intuitive can often be good. But sometimes making something too simple requires eliminating functionality. And also sometimes what is "intuitive" depends on your frame of reference. I often shift multiple sprockets at a time in the back, and also sometimes shift front and rear simultaneously, and I think I'd miss the functionality if I switched to E-tap.

I started riding when friction down tube shifters were the norm. With this style of shifters, there is a single lever for each derailleur, and moving the lever in different directions made the derailleurs move in different directions. I could shift multiple sprockets with one lever movement, and by using my index finger on one lever and my thumb on the other, I could shifter front and rear simultaneously. Brakes were a completely different set of levers.

When I went from down tube shifters to brifters, I found Campagnolo Ergo shifters more intuitive than Shimano STI. With Ergo shifters, just as with down tube shifters, the right shifter shifted the rear derailleur, the left shifter shifted the front derailleur, and the brake levers were a completely different set of levers. Further, when I pushed a shift lever to the left, the derailleur moved to the left. When I pushed a shift lever to the right, the derailleur moved to the right, unlike STI shifters, where the levers for each derailleur moved in the same direction for shifting both up and down. Also unlike with STI levers, the derailleurs moved immediately and proportional to lever travel (STI upshifts only happen after you release the lever, and you can only upshift one sprocket at a time). Since I already knew how derailleurs worked, operating the derailleurs with Ergo shifters was obvious and intuitive, and more intuitive than STI levers.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - E-tap is probably intuitive to people who aren't experienced with derailleur gearing, while other shifters may be more intuitive who already have experience with derailleur gearing.

I have become more and more convinced that bicycles are designed primarily for the "parking lot test ride" than they are for intensive real work usage. A prime example is Shimano's attempt to push reverse action derailleurs (first called "low normal", and then called "rapid rise"). When brand new, these derailleurs operate very smoothly and quietly, even with an unexperienced rider jabbing at the levers. But as the wear in, and as cables develop more friction, the reverse action derailleurs become hesitant and balky, and shift poorly under load. In other words, they were designed to work best during an initial test ride by a prospective buyer, rather than under the rigors of actual usage.

With Etap, you can shift up and down the cogs by just holding the lever. Yes, I too shift both the front and rear derailleur at the same time with DI2, not sure if I will miss this aspect or not. I'm not a racer, nor tend to ride super fast with a rest need to shift so quickly. I just do it because I can.

As for you thinking that it will be more intuitive for people who have no experience with gearing...I have built more than 25 bikes,Campy , Shimano and now SRAM as well as single speed and fixed gear bikes. I think I am pretty well versed in derauiler gearing and I think the Etap protocol ( at first glance building up the bike ) is very intuitive. I am expecting that within the first 40 mile ride I do with hills ( my standard mid week ride ) I'll be completely versed in it by the end of the ride.

If it's not, I'll have the group up for sale in the classified section...:crap:

chiasticon
06-17-2016, 11:41 AM
In other words, they were designed to work best during an initial test ride by a prospective buyer, rather than under the rigors of actual usage.that's the opposite of electronic shifting though; it's designed to function exactly the same, until the motor dies or you destroy it in a crash or something.

velomonkey
06-17-2016, 11:48 AM
I got Campy record and Campy EPS.

EPS is awesome - I ride it a ton. Though for a lot of situations I can shift both better and quicker with mechanical. Namely dumping gears and going from the 53x23 to the 39x18 or thereabouts. I can get their better using mechanical. I live in New England and we have a lot of little bigger-than-roller hills that need to be drilled like that. On Electric, wired and wireless, the front shifting is the awesome part - the rear is the 'a bit better' part.

I got a frame that is electric only and I will take the little wire with one longer-lasting battery as opposed to having 4 batteries.

Still, I totally get wireless. Eager to hear your thoughts.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 11:59 AM
I got Campy record and Campy EPS.

EPS is awesome - I ride it a ton. Though for a lot of situations I can shift both better and quicker with mechanical. Namely dumping gears and going from the 53x23 to the 39x18 or thereabouts. I can get their better using mechanical. I live in New England and we have a lot of little bigger-than-roller hills that need to be drilled like that. On Electric, wired and wireless, the front shifting is the awesome part - the rear is the 'a bit better' part.

I got a frame that is electric only and I will take the little wire with one longer-lasting battery as opposed to having 4 batteries.

Still, I totally get wireless. Eager to hear your thoughts.

It's funny that you say this. I've been thinking about this a bunch and looking at my Moots ( which is electronic only ) and now the Kirk with wireless. Even with the Moots being drilled for internal, there are still wires outside the frame and a connector outside the frame. It's truly not as elegant as not having any wires or connectors, not as neat nor clean looking and the chance of snagging a wire or pulling it up of its connector is a possibility ( ask me how I know ). Oh, and then there is the D fly sensor which is installed on the outside of the drive side seat stay, also wires showing.

As for the 4 batteries, the 2 in the shifters supposedly last up to 2 years and I imagine the front derailleur will last a very long time as well. If the rear does go out on a ride, you can swap out the front with the rear and finish your ride while still being able to shift the rear derauiler. You cannot do this with a wired single battery system.

And, the Garmin 1000 gives you battery readings of all 4 batteries as well as what gears you are in. This is a really nice and functional feature. Oh, DI2 does this also.

Bob Ross
06-17-2016, 12:17 PM
Not sure why you would say that it wouldn't make sense. Have you tried it or even thought it out?

Haven't tried it; have spent a lot of time thinking about how it works and how one would use it. My skepticism is based more on the overcoming of long-ingrained muscle memory than in any notion that eTap is inherently nonsensical.

I've been shifting up and down on the RD with my right hand for ~46 years. Given how many times I biff a shift on my 3-month-old Campy-equipped bike after riding Shimano STI for 10 years -- where the difference is simply lever assignment rather than hand assignment (which is arguably a much greater paradigm shift) -- I envision the learning curve for fully integrating & absorbing eTap to be substantial.

Now, the fact that the two or three early adopters I've spoken to about eTap have all claimed that the learning curve was non-existant and they "got it" immediately makes me very curious about how such a seemingly large paradigm shift can be so easily incorporated by the brain.


edit: Or, to put it another way...

A lot of us switch between Shimano, SRAM and Campy every day. It's unconscious.

I wish!

velomonkey
06-17-2016, 12:39 PM
It's funny that you say this. I've been thinking about this a bunch and looking at my Moots ( which is electronic only )

As for the 4 batteries, the 2 in the shifters supposedly last up to 2 years and I imagine the front derailleur will last a very long time as well.

Ha - it's also funny you say that - cause my mech bike is my ti firefly. I actually think ti bikes made for electronic don't look as good since they have to weld around the little holes. So my electric-only bike is my colnago and that thing just looks very streamlined. Looks much better than the dual electric and mech frames.

I think wireless and ti will go fine and would look better than ti and electric - though I'm a classic guy, ti and mech is the way :beer:

One note: I implore you to properly recycle this small watch batteries for the shifters. They have silver oxide and that stuff is wicked, wicked toxic. Find a watch store that will properly dispose of them. I use one for my power2max and it lasts around 9 months so I found a place to bring them. I get you on the 1000 and that's cool, but I'm one of those guys that still rides a Garmin 500 cause of the size. The 1000 is just too much for me - hey, I'm opinionated.

Can't wait to read your opinion of Etap.

Mark McM
06-17-2016, 12:48 PM
With Etap, you can shift up and down the cogs by just holding the lever. Yes, I too shift both the front and rear derailleur at the same time with DI2, not sure if I will miss this aspect or not. I'm not a racer, nor tend to ride super fast with a rest need to shift so quickly. I just do it because I can.

How long do you have to hold the lever to do multiple shifts with e-Tap? Surely there must be a delay between the 1st and second shift - the e-Tap will have to use timing to figure out if you intend to do multiple shifts, or if you simply held the lever a little bit long for a single shift.

Even the original electronic shifting system (Mavic Mektronic) had a multiple shift feature. But it was a little bit difficult to use, because you had to hold the lever down for about a second before it started the second shift, and then it did multiple shifts so fast that it might shift to a 3rd or 4th sprocket before you let go of the lever.

With mechanical shifters, the number of sprockets to shift is determined by how far you move the lever (the number of "clicks"), and it performs multiple shifts immediately as the lever is moved. With Campagnolo Ergo shifters, I can go directly to almost any gear I might want. I can down shift across an entire 10 speed cassette in about 2 seconds with a three quick pushes, and can upshift across the entire cassette in about 1 1/2 seconds with 2 quick pushes. And I can easily stop anywhere in the middle that I might want.

Other than Mavic Mektronic system many years ago, the only electronic shifting system I've tried is Di2 (I haven't tried e-Tap or Campy electronic). But I found that while Di2 did shift very smoothly, it also shifter slower than I'm used to. Single shifts were a little bit slower, and multiple shifts were a lot slower. Maybe Ergo has spoiled me, because I am used to being able to go almost directly to any gear at any time.

benb
06-17-2016, 01:39 PM
I hadn't thought about the shift both derailleurs at the same time thing.

99% of the time I do that. Rear derailleur gets moved about 2 gears in the opposite direction as the front when I shift the front.

Mark McM
06-17-2016, 01:47 PM
I hadn't thought about the shift both derailleurs at the same time thing.

99% of the time I do that. Rear derailleur gets moved about 2 gears in the opposite direction as the front when I shift the front.

^^^ This - especially with a semi-compact crank (52/36). The large size difference in the chainrings often necessitates shifting 2 sprocket in the rear to get the next equivalent gear size. With most shifting systems, this can all be done simultaneously - but not with e-Tap.

By the way, has anyone figured out how the e-Tap system can ever accommodate a triple crank? The Di2 and EPS systems, with its separate buttons/levers for direction of the front derailleur, can be directly extended for triple cranks. How would e-Tap handle this?

sandyrs
06-17-2016, 01:49 PM
I hadn't thought about the shift both derailleurs at the same time thing.

99% of the time I do that. Rear derailleur gets moved about 2 gears in the opposite direction as the front when I shift the front.

I usually do a quick rear-front-rear (not simultaneously but over the course of about one second) and have no doubt that if eTap shifts sufficiently quickly I could learn to do a rear-front-rear shift on eTap without issue. The stuff's out of my price range for now but eventually I, like others have said, could see putting wireless on my travel bike.

benb
06-17-2016, 01:53 PM
^^^ This - especially with a semi-compact crank (52/36). The large size difference in the chainrings often necessitates shifting 2 sprocket in the rear to get the next equivalent gear size. With most shifting systems, this can all be done simultaneously - but not with e-Tap.

This is something that actually pisses me off with late 10 speed from Shimano as well.. 9-speed shimano and early 10 speed could downshift 3 cogs at once, I have 5700 and 6700 on my two road bikes right now, they can only downshift 2 cogs at once in the back. (I know they fixed this with 11 speed but I don't have that yet.)

No big deal on my Domane with 53/39 rings, downshifting 2 cogs when upshifting from the small ring to the big ring is just right. I've got an 11-28 on that bike and it's a great setup I can climb just about anything shy of a Mt. Washington level climb on it and yet it doesn't seem like the gears are excessively spaced out.

On my AC Space Horse with the 50/34 rings it makes it almost impossible to use a tightly spaced cassette when riding hard. With a tightly spaced cassette you want to downshift 3 cogs in the back on that bike to get to the correct gear ratio when upshifting from the small ring to the big ring. Essentially I get around this by only using a wide spaced cassette like 11-30 or 11-32 as with those the 2 cog downshift is fine. When I tried a 12-25 since I was swapping wheels it was pretty horrible.

On electronic I figure I would just tap the button multiple times and let the system do it's thing.. slightly different than how you do it with mechanical but not really a big deal since electronic groups seem to shift better under high power loads. Like I said, I have not tried EPS or eTap but that seemed to work fine when I tried a bike with Ui2.

How loud is eTap? I hate hate hate that you can hear the servos whining with Ui2. Can you hear them with Di2? No big deal at high speed but I think it would drive me a little nuts up long climbs at lower speeds.

pdmtong
06-17-2016, 02:41 PM
^^^ This - especially with a semi-compact crank (52/36). The large size difference in the chainrings often necessitates shifting 2 sprocket in the rear to get the next equivalent gear size. With most shifting systems, this can all be done simultaneously - but not with e-Tap.

eTAP double shift: you shift the FD and once that happens let go one of the paddles so the other paddle is still shifting the RD.

go to big ring, let go the right

go to little ring, let go the left

chiasticon
06-17-2016, 02:54 PM
eTAP double shift: you shift the FD and once that happens let go one of the paddles so the other paddle is still shifting the RD.

go to big ring, let go the right

go to little ring, let go the leftNO! IT HAS TO HAPPEN AT THE EXACT SAME TIME!!! :)

seriously though, the above is what I do with mechanical anyway. I always figured that while the FD is doing it's thing the chain is under less tension and the RD is busy swinging forward/backward already, so moving the RD sideways too isn't a good idea. so I avoid it. maybe I should give it a shot, I guess, just never seemed necessary or a good idea.

sandyrs
06-17-2016, 03:12 PM
By the way, has anyone figured out how the e-Tap system can ever accommodate a triple crank? The Di2 and EPS systems, with its separate buttons/levers for direction of the front derailleur, can be directly extended for triple cranks. How would e-Tap handle this?

As I'm sure you know SRAM does not make a road triple at all. Their WiFli rear derailleurs were specifically marketed as 'triple killers.' I'm not surprised they created a system that by design can never accommodate triples.

Mark McM
06-17-2016, 03:27 PM
As I'm sure you know SRAM does not make a road triple at all. Their WiFli rear derailleurs were specifically marketed as 'triple killers.' I'm not surprised they created a system that by design can never accommodate triples.

So, let's see -

First the component companies kept adding sprockets to the rear cassette (8spd, then 9spd, then 10spd, then 11spd) but kept the same range of minimum and maximum sprocket sizes, with the excuse that riders would get finer graduations between sprocket sizes to for better fine tuning of gear size selection.

Now, the component companies are trying to sell us wide range cassettes with only one or two chainrings, which provide the same range of gear sizes of a triple by increasing the graduations between sprocket sizes.

Will they ever make up their mind what is best for us?

pdmtong
06-17-2016, 03:37 PM
NO! IT HAS TO HAPPEN AT THE EXACT SAME TIME!!! :)

seriously though, the above is what I do with mechanical anyway. I always figured that while the FD is doing it's thing the chain is under less tension and the RD is busy swinging forward/backward already, so moving the RD sideways too isn't a good idea. so I avoid it. maybe I should give it a shot, I guess, just never seemed necessary or a good idea.

the last time I tried to do a simultaneous double shift I threw the chain into my spokes at 25mph and locked the rear. it almost destroyed the wheel and I felt lucky I did not crash my ottrott. idiot me. trying to be all pro and almost kissed the asphalt. As my ability to shift will not result in any Primes, I just do it FD then RD

velomonkey
06-17-2016, 04:10 PM
the last time I tried to do a simultaneous double shift I threw the chain into my spokes at 25mph

I do double shifts all the time and campy, at least my campy setups, handle it with aplomb.

My next question: Bro, why are you shifting in your 39 if you're going 25mph?????

54ny77
06-17-2016, 04:48 PM
i never understood how people get so worked up about brands being able to (or unable to) shift up or down [x] cogs at a clip. don't y'all just get used to how the manufacturer set it up and make it work, for leisure or racing? good grief, those of us dinosaurs who came from downtube shifters....any of the "brifter" things are wonderful, no matter their nuance.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 05:19 PM
How long do you have to hold the lever to do multiple shifts with e-Tap? Surely there must be a delay between the 1st and second shift - the e-Tap will have to use timing to figure out if you intend to do multiple shifts, or if you simply held the lever a little bit long for a single shift.

Even the original electronic shifting system (Mavic Mektronic) had a multiple shift feature. But it was a little bit difficult to use, because you had to hold the lever down for about a second before it started the second shift, and then it did multiple shifts so fast that it might shift to a 3rd or 4th sprocket before you let go of the lever.

With mechanical shifters, the number of sprockets to shift is determined by how far you move the lever (the number of "clicks"), and it performs multiple shifts immediately as the lever is moved. With Campagnolo Ergo shifters, I can go directly to almost any gear I might want. I can down shift across an entire 10 speed cassette in about 2 seconds with a three quick pushes, and can upshift across the entire cassette in about 1 1/2 seconds with 2 quick pushes. And I can easily stop anywhere in the middle that I might want.

Other than Mavic Mektronic system many years ago, the only electronic shifting system I've tried is Di2 (I haven't tried e-Tap or Campy electronic). But I found that while Di2 did shift very smoothly, it also shifter slower than I'm used to. Single shifts were a little bit slower, and multiple shifts were a lot slower. Maybe Ergo has spoiled me, because I am used to being able to go almost directly to any gear at any time.

DI2 can be user programmed to shift very quickly 3 cogs at a time. The drivetrain you used was obviously not programmed to shift in the " very fast " mode.

Speaking of user programming, the etap system came with a dongle for ??? I imagine it's for firmware updates and/ or being able to do something different with the shifting. Just not sure what it could be.

Thoughts?

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 05:21 PM
I do double shifts all the time and campy, at least my campy setups, handle it with aplomb.

My next question: Bro, why are you shifting in your 39 if you're going 25mph?????

This is not a Campy vs Shimano thread....but DI2 is seamless in its ability to double shift.

ceolwulf
06-17-2016, 05:47 PM
You'd be amazed how quick you adapt to things. When I was a young enlisted guy stationed in Bangkok and had just arrived, I was told to jump in the Landcruiser and pick up some gear. They drive on the other side and the vehicle was manual. I drove out and did my thing. It wasn't until I got back that I realized I was using my left hand to shift.

A lot of us switch between Shimano, SRAM and Campy every day. It's unconscious.

This is true. I have owned both LHD and RHD cars, at one point one of each, and it's no trouble to switch between them (except for the constantly hitting your wipers when you want to signal!). And run both SRAM and Campy and likewise no problem.

I'm too broke for eTap now but am eagerly awaiting the Force version. Surely next year.

pdmtong
06-17-2016, 06:19 PM
I do double shifts all the time and campy, at least my campy setups, handle it with aplomb.

My next question: Bro, why are you shifting in your 39 if you're going 25mph?????

The blame falls on me for sure...I crested this climb..was going down hill, got the the flat, figured time to get on it again...ugh in the small ring. so shift to big and get to some smaller gears in back. total fail on my part. R10.

SoCalSteve
06-17-2016, 07:00 PM
One more thing about Etap which we haven't really touched on is the wired " blip" shifters. They come in varying lengths. I bought the length that will go all the way to the stem.

Since I am using an aero flat top bar, the place holders will not work as they are for round bars only. On my ride today ( the Moots with DI2 and no remote shifter ) I was thinking about placement. The thing I didn't like about the DI2 remote shifters is that it is meant to go right next to the stem. I found this a very un- ergonomic place for shifting. I think I will mount them on both sides, mid way between the stem and shifters on the underside of the bars. I will wrap them under the bar tape.

On my ride today, this placement felt very natural to me where my hands rested on the bar tops. I have a feeling I will like them there and actually use them. I rarely used the DI2 remote shifters, so I sold them.

choke
06-17-2016, 09:05 PM
i never understood how people get so worked up about brands being able to (or unable to) shift up or down [x] cogs at a clip. don't y'all just get used to how the manufacturer set it up and make it work, for leisure or racing? good grief, those of us dinosaurs who came from downtube shifters....any of the "brifter" things are wonderful, no matter their nuance.Simple....I use the one that shifts like I want (Campy) and avoid the other two like the plague. :)

Pastashop
06-17-2016, 10:41 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160617/c0187b5d7de43c7aa60118086c176271.jpg

Just sayin'...

adub
06-17-2016, 11:13 PM
Ive been riding Etap for about 4 months and here are my thoughts;

-The left paddle/right paddle shifing for inboard/outboard is very intuitive- and this is coming from a di2 user. I am planning to have my di2 shifting re-mapped to mimic the etap as close as possible. It's that intuitive, or I'm a simpleton as the di2 shifting sequence now makes no sense to me :)

-Not as quick as di2 but not too slow to be a hindrance in any situation I've been in.

-Impressed with the battery life, I would agree you get 1000km between charges, I charge once I no longer get the green light- thats 50%

-I shift front and rear der almost at the same time- Hold both paddles to drop to small chain ring and just let off the right only to go up the cassette.

-I love the solid "click" to engage the shifting. I have never had my etap ghost shift. No click is the downside of di2, I often get ghost shifts on my di2 on rough tarmac.

-less cables/no wires!


I bought this groupset to put on a mechanical C59 frame that I did not want to drill for a di2 installation, fits the bill perfectly. It's not quite as refined as di2 but likely 90% there.

chiasticon
06-17-2016, 11:30 PM
I love the solid "click" to engage the shifting. I have never had my etap ghost shift. No click is the downside of di2, I often get ghost shifts on my di2 on rough tarmac.

I bought this groupset to put on a mechanical C59 frame that I did not want to drill for a di2 installation, fits the bill perfectly. It's not quite as refined as di2 but likely 90% there.pretty much where I'm at with eTap. I loved my experience with DI2; shifting was phenomenal. but the button feedback sucks and I can't imagine trying to press those tiny buttons on rough terrain. I also think electronic shifting is a great idea for cross, and wireless even more so. and I love my IndyFab Ti CX bike, but it's mechanical. so eTap - albeit a likely later and cheaper Force version - seems a great fit.

Elefantino
06-18-2016, 12:15 AM
I'm waiting for the Campy wireless version (patent material already online), which I can't afford either.

oldpotatoe
06-18-2016, 06:19 AM
It's funny that you say this. I've been thinking about this a bunch and looking at my Moots ( which is electronic only ) and now the Kirk with wireless. Even with the Moots being drilled for internal, there are still wires outside the frame and a connector outside the frame. It's truly not as elegant as not having any wires or connectors, not as neat nor clean looking and the chance of snagging a wire or pulling it up of its connector is a possibility ( ask me how I know ). Oh, and then there is the D fly sensor which is installed on the outside of the drive side seat stay, also wires showing.

As for the 4 batteries, the 2 in the shifters supposedly last up to 2 years and I imagine the front derailleur will last a very long time as well. If the rear does go out on a ride, you can swap out the front with the rear and finish your ride while still being able to shift the rear derauiler. You cannot do this with a wired single battery system.

And, the Garmin 1000 gives you battery readings of all 4 batteries as well as what gears you are in. This is a really nice and functional feature. Oh, DI2 does this also.

Actually you can finish your ride if a EPS battery or something else crumps by manually disconnecting the rear der and moving it by hand..not for Di2 but yes, kinda the same, for EPS. As for battery and gear and shift protocol and such, V3 EPS has this also. You can even shift both ders from one lever.

oldpotatoe
06-18-2016, 06:23 AM
One more thing about Etap which we haven't really touched on is the wired " blip" shifters. They come in varying lengths. I bought the length that will go all the way to the stem.

Since I am using an aero flat top bar, the place holders will not work as they are for round bars only. On my ride today ( the Moots with DI2 and no remote shifter ) I was thinking about placement. The thing I didn't like about the DI2 remote shifters is that it is meant to go right next to the stem. I found this a very un- ergonomic place for shifting. I think I will mount them on both sides, mid way between the stem and shifters on the underside of the bars. I will wrap them under the bar tape.

On my ride today, this placement felt very natural to me where my hands rested on the bar tops. I have a feeling I will like them there and actually use them. I rarely used the DI2 remote shifters, so I sold them.

What with WIRES??? Are you kidding? WIRES? Those heavy, ugly un aero things?? Get rid of that group right now. :)

Vecchio's has a DR Moots with etap and mechanical discs...yikes, the guy already has said he wants to swap the levers when hydro discs come out with etap...another $1000 or so..with sram so all in with discs, surprised the etap was not hydro disc first and foremost. PLUS the Moots not holed at all for anything..I guess this gent is new to cycling(groups)....:p

SoCalSteve
06-18-2016, 09:06 AM
Actually you can finish your ride if a EPS battery or something else crumps by manually disconnecting the rear der and moving it by hand..not for Di2 but yes, kinda the same, for EPS. As for battery and gear and shift protocol and such, V3 EPS has this also. You can even shift both ders from one lever.

Actually not the same at all. Because the batteries are interchangeable and I'm sure the front battery will last much longer than the rear, just swap out the good one to the rear and you can shift 100% without getting off the bike and moving it by hand and if you truly have to shift the front, you can swap it, make the shift, swap back and continue your ride.

Or, if you are truly OCD, just get a third battery ( they are very small and nowhere near the price of a DI2 battery) and keep it in your jersey pocket or saddle bag. Now you will never have to worry!

pdmtong
06-18-2016, 09:13 AM
Since the charger only has one battery port how are people approaching recharging? My initial tendency would be want to charge both but having to do that sequentially with one port takes twice as long.

Presumably the rear drains faster so charge rear move existing front to rear and put 100% charged battery in front (rotate)?

Or just charge each when they need it and leave them where they are?

SoCalSteve
06-18-2016, 09:21 AM
What with WIRES??? Are you kidding? WIRES? Those heavy, ugly un aero things?? Get rid of that group right now. :)

Vecchio's has a DR Moots with etap and mechanical discs...yikes, the guy already has said he wants to swap the levers when hydro discs come out with etap...another $1000 or so..with sram so all in with discs, surprised the etap was not hydro disc first and foremost. PLUS the Moots not holed at all for anything..I guess this gent is new to cycling(groups)....:p

The wires are 100% hidden under the bar tape. Ugly, no. Un aero, no. Heavy, yes...:)

SoCalSteve
06-18-2016, 09:28 AM
Since the charger only has one battery port how are people approaching recharging? My initial tendency would be want to charge both but having to do that sequentially with one port takes twice as long.

Presumably the rear drains faster so charge rear move existing front to rear and put 100% charged battery in front (rotate)?

Or just charge each when they need it and leave them where they are?

Or buy a second charger, but that seems unnecessary. I don't have " field " experience yet, but it seems that any one of your scenarios would work well. My tendency would just be to charge both at the same time ( but I am truly OCD ). The charger is small, plugs into the wall and has LED indicators and so far, when I topped them both off initially, it took less than an hour to charge them.

It's actually easier than DI2 as your entire bike has to be moved next to a wall plug. The Etap batteries pop right out from the derauilers and they are held in place with a very secure mount.

Sierra
06-18-2016, 09:32 AM
What with WIRES??? Are you kidding? WIRES? Those heavy, ugly un aero things?? Get rid of that group right now. :)

Vecchio's has a DR Moots with etap and mechanical discs...yikes, the guy already has said he wants to swap the levers when hydro discs come out with etap...another $1000 or so..with sram so all in with discs, surprised the etap was not hydro disc first and foremost. PLUS the Moots not holed at all for anything..I guess this gent is new to cycling(groups)....:p


Buy a motorcycle already and be done with it.

adub
06-18-2016, 10:21 AM
Since the charger only has one battery port how are people approaching recharging? My initial tendency would be want to charge both but having to do that sequentially with one port takes twice as long.

Presumably the rear drains faster so charge rear move existing front to rear and put 100% charged battery in front (rotate)?

Or just charge each when they need it and leave them where they are?

I charge both batteries, rotating when the first is done. I do agree the charger shoulda had 2 ports.

eBAUMANN
06-18-2016, 10:40 AM
The left paddle/right paddle shifing for inboard/outboard is very intuitive- and this is coming from a di2 user. I am planning to have my di2 shifting re-mapped to mimic the etap as close as possible. It's that intuitive, or I'm a simpleton as the di2 shifting sequence now makes no sense to me :)

For the first few rides I had trouble remembering which button was up and which was down (with di2) but pretty quickly figured out a way to remember that became very intuitive and instinctual almost immediately - the "front" bumpy texture button shifts "UP" and the larger "tab" button shifts "DOWN." So that is to say, you push the forward bumpy one, your RD shifts up the cassette or FD shifts to big ring...press the larger "tab" button, down cassette and down to little ring. Pretty easy...

Also di2 lets you shift up and down the cassette while riding one-handed, which is nice if you like to take photos while riding (i do) and regularly find yourself doing so in hilly areas (i do).

Also, has anyone mentioned how ridiculously expensive this eTap stuff is yet? :p

----

Also, I get the whole "no wires to gunk up so great for cx!" argument but there is a much larger argument to be made against etap going anywhere near a cx course, unless you are made of money I guess. CX for me is about racing components that I can afford to keep a supply of spares on hand...this really just means shifters, RD's, and tires, as they are the most prone to damage.

I race SRAM 1x11 and use GX rd's because they are 90% of cx1 with better cable routing (IMO) and about 1/4 of the price...while also being the same weight, maybe even lighter actually.

If you have an issue with your shifting getting F'd by course conditions, run full cable housing...done. The answer is not (IMO) "remove the wires and add $1k of RD and shifters! huzzah!"

Just my 2c.

MaraudingWalrus
06-18-2016, 11:08 AM
So, I guess what I'm saying is - E-tap is probably intuitive to people who aren't experienced with derailleur gearing, while other shifters may be more intuitive who already have experience with derailleur gearing.

So you're saying that people who have done a thing one way forever might be more stuck in a rut with their habits than those who have no experience doing that thing?

eBAUMANN
06-18-2016, 11:22 AM
So you're saying that people who have done a thing one way forever might be more stuck in a rut with their habits than those who have no experience doing that thing?

Sounds like what he is saying, yea, and I agree.

eTap shifting would definitely be more intuitive to someone who has never shifted a bike before, and less-so for someone used to shifting up and down on separated front and rear shifters.

chiasticon
06-18-2016, 11:59 AM
Since the charger only has one battery port how are people approaching recharging? My initial tendency would be want to charge both but having to do that sequentially with one port takes twice as long.

Presumably the rear drains faster so charge rear move existing front to rear and put 100% charged battery in front (rotate)?

Or just charge each when they need it and leave them where they are?personally, since it integrates out of the box with your Garmin, reporting the charge, I would just keep an eye on the levels every few rides. charge each as needed. but I'm a guy who only plugs my phone in when it's at like 5-10% and goes into low power mode...

Joxster
06-18-2016, 12:01 PM
So you're saying that people who have done a thing one way forever might be more stuck in a rut with their habits than those who have no experience doing that thing?

I run Campag and I've always done so, but I had to ride a bike that had SCRAM Red 22 and I found it ok. Double Tap is a bit misleading it should 'Push a bit, then a bit bloody more' I didn't miss any changes of a 160km ride and I didn't have to think too much about changes. I've been riding bikes since 1980 and Simplex is still the best shifter ;) I could change gear in a bunch sprint without taking my hands off the bars, using my knee.

chiasticon
06-18-2016, 12:08 PM
Also, has anyone mentioned how ridiculously expensive this eTap stuff is yet? :p

----

Also, I get the whole "no wires to gunk up so great for cx!" argument but there is a much larger argument to be made against etap going anywhere near a cx course, unless you are made of money I guess. CX for me is about racing components that I can afford to keep a supply of spares on hand...this really just means shifters, RD's, and tires, as they are the most prone to damage.

I race SRAM 1x11 and use GX rd's because they are 90% of cx1 with better cable routing (IMO) and about 1/4 of the price...while also being the same weight, maybe even lighter actually.

If you have an issue with your shifting getting F'd by course conditions, run full cable housing...done. The answer is not (IMO) "remove the wires and add $1k of RD and shifters! huzzah!"

Just my 2c.re: price. yeah it is expensive, but DA di2 currently costs roughly the same (unless you count UK purchasing). I'm not jumping into either at those prices.

re: cx. I get that. and I've been running fully sealed housing for a while and yeah it's great. still think eTap would be sweet. but no way I'm jumping in until there are lower grade options. BUT the caveat I guess is that I've only been racing cross for a few years and although I crash often enough and fill my derailleurs with mud as much as the next guy, I've yet to totally bork a shifter or derailleur. I'm sure it'll happen eventually and I'll be singing a different tune!

SoCalSteve
06-18-2016, 03:13 PM
Ive been riding Etap for about 4 months and here are my thoughts;

-The left paddle/right paddle shifing for inboard/outboard is very intuitive- and this is coming from a di2 user. I am planning to have my di2 shifting re-mapped to mimic the etap as close as possible. It's that intuitive, or I'm a simpleton as the di2 shifting sequence now makes no sense to me :)

-Not as quick as di2 but not too slow to be a hindrance in any situation I've been in.

-Impressed with the battery life, I would agree you get 1000km between charges, I charge once I no longer get the green light- thats 50%

-I shift front and rear der almost at the same time- Hold both paddles to drop to small chain ring and just let off the right only to go up the cassette.

-I love the solid "click" to engage the shifting. I have never had my etap ghost shift. No click is the downside of di2, I often get ghost shifts on my di2 on rough tarmac.

-less cables/no wires!


I bought this groupset to put on a mechanical C59 frame that I did not want to drill for a di2 installation, fits the bill perfectly. It's not quite as refined as di2 but likely 90% there.

What would it take to make it 100%? What is that 10% missing? Just curious as I still haven't had a chance to actually field test it yet ( will be on Tuesday ).

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 10:42 AM
As mentioned, expectations, and even what seems "intuitive", can depend on the perspective and background of the user. In light of that, here's an interesting comparison:

Campagnolo is a European company, run by European managers, with European engineers and product managers.

Shimano is a Japanese company, run by Japanese managers, and with Japanese engineers and product managers.

SRAM is an American company, run by American managers, and with American engineers and product managers.

Currently, over 80% of cars sold in Europe and Japan have manual transmissions. But less than 4% of cars sold in America have manual transmissions. (Source: https://www.thezebra.com/insurance-news/2805/manual-vs-automatic/).

Maybe E-Tap is designed for people who don't know how shift?

Joxster
06-20-2016, 10:48 AM
Mark McM, I think you've made a typo and left an extra 'f' in there ;)

gospastic
06-20-2016, 10:49 AM
What is automatic about e-tap shifting? Your comparison makes no sense

guido
06-20-2016, 11:06 AM
When they do a Force $ level eTap with support for a 36 tooth cog in the back I'm in.

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 11:11 AM
What is automatic about e-tap shifting? Your comparison makes no sense

The comparison is about how far the drivers is removed from the shifting process. An automotive manual shifter makes a driver think a little more about the actual mechanism involved in shifting (including operating a clutch and modulating the accelerator). But more to the point, it requires the driver to adapt to an non-linear mapping between shifter and gearing. Most manual gear boxes have a some type of H pattern or equivalent, so the driver has to be able to the match a 2 dimensional pattern to desired gearing. No such mental gear selection pattern is required for an automatic transmission.

Perhaps one of the reasons I have no problem with Campagnolo Ergo shifting is because my brain is already trained for matching a finger/hand motion pattern for gear selection. And further, since my brain is already attuned to the actual mechanism of shifting, it can take advantage of the extra flexibility/capabilities of the Ergo system to go directly to a desired gear by employing techniques like simultaneous front/rear shifting, and multiple rear shifts with a single finger motion. I don't consciously think about these techniques, I just decide which gear I want, and my hands automatically go through the motions.

bfd
06-20-2016, 11:20 AM
The comparison is about how far the drivers is removed from the shifting process. An automotive manual shifter makes a driver think a little more about the actual mechanism involved in shifting (including operating a clutch and modulating the accelerator). But more to the point, it requires the driver to adapt to an non-linear mapping between shifter and gearing. Most manual gear boxes have a some type of H pattern or equivalent, so the driver has to be able to the match a 2 dimensional pattern to desired gearing. No such mental gear selection pattern is required for an automatic transmission.

Perhaps one of the reasons I have no problem with Campagnolo Ergo shifting is because my brain is already trained for matching a finger/hand motion pattern for gear selection. And further, since my brain is already attuned to the actual mechanism of shifting, it can take advantage of the extra flexibility/capabilities of the Ergo system to go directly to a desired gear by employing techniques like simultaneous front/rear shifting, and multiple rear shifts with a single finger motion. I don't consciously think about these techniques, I just decide which gear I want, and my hands automatically go through the motions.

I agree in part. I too am a long time Campy user and love my ergo shifters, especially shifting the front. Further, I recently borrowed a bike with Sram double tap and for the rear, it actually wasn't bad. However, the front was a nightmare and hard to figure out. Two of my buddies LOVE Sram and find it intuitive. They never tried Campy.

However, for e-shifting, whether di2/eps or wireless, you still have to mental shift. Hitting a button might be easier than shifting a wire/cable, maybe. The big advantage of Etap is how clean it looks. All they need to do now is come out with wireless breaking (you know somebody is working on it...) and man, no wires or cables!

My buddy recently picked up a Trek Domane with Etap, so clean, so beautiful. But he's one of those guys who LOVES Sram and has never tried Campy. He said it took him about 2 seconds to learn how to shift and says its very intuitive - right shifter makes it easier, left shift makes it harder and shift both levers you change rings! What's not to like?!

I'm planning on building a new bike soon and even as a long time Campy tifosi, I have to admit that Etap is very, very high on the list....Good Luck!

SoCalSteve
06-20-2016, 11:43 AM
Mark,

Go to a Porsche dealership, get in a 911 with PDK double clutch transmission ( taken from the F1 racing world ) and check out the paddles and shifting patterns.

I'm sure if Michael Shumacher used it, it's probably better than a manual. He didn't have to think about patterns or clutching or feathering the accelerator. He was left to actually spend more time driving. It's more efficient and faster than a manual.

Not sure if you know this about electronic shifting, but it adjusts the front derailleur for you so if you are crossed chained, the derailleur knows this and moves the cage out of the way. Leaves you more time and energy to concentrate on cycling...:p

Just a few random thoughts. Oh, I do own a 911 and it's a manual. I can shift all kinds of gears!

David Tollefson
06-20-2016, 11:54 AM
Not sure if you know this about electronic shifting, but it adjusts the front derailleur for you so if you are crossed chained, the derailleur knows this and moves the cage out of the way. Leaves you more time and energy to concentrate on cycling...:p


My understanding is that this is true of Campy and Shimano, but not SRAM eTap.

saab2000
06-20-2016, 11:54 AM
The comparison is about how far the drivers is removed from the shifting process. An automotive manual shifter makes a driver think a little more about the actual mechanism involved in shifting (including operating a clutch and modulating the accelerator). But more to the point, it requires the driver to adapt to an non-linear mapping between shifter and gearing. Most manual gear boxes have a some type of H pattern or equivalent, so the driver has to be able to the match a 2 dimensional pattern to desired gearing. No such mental gear selection pattern is required for an automatic transmission.

Perhaps one of the reasons I have no problem with Campagnolo Ergo shifting is because my brain is already trained for matching a finger/hand motion pattern for gear selection. And further, since my brain is already attuned to the actual mechanism of shifting, it can take advantage of the extra flexibility/capabilities of the Ergo system to go directly to a desired gear by employing techniques like simultaneous front/rear shifting, and multiple rear shifts with a single finger motion. I don't consciously think about these techniques, I just decide which gear I want, and my hands automatically go through the motions.

I own both Campagnolo and Shimano and can transition between them thoughtlessly. About once a month or so I'll try to shift the wrong way! Otherwise it's totally unconscious.

As to the manual shifting, honestly, I'm so over it. My current car is a VW GTI and I've owned manuals my whole life. The first car I ever drove was a manual, so I've got over 30 years of experience driving them.

If I ever get a Mazda Miata again I'll get a manual, otherwise my next car is probably an automatic. That's major league thread drift! But I'm so tired of the three-limb dance in heavy traffic or in stop and go traffic on inclines.

shovelhd
06-20-2016, 12:04 PM
The DSG in your future GTI is a lot like the one in the referenced Porsche. It's really an automated manual. Di2 is similar in that it will continue to shift if you hold the shift button down.

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 12:15 PM
Mark,

Go to a Porsche dealership, get in a 911 with PDK double clutch transmission ( taken from the F1 racing world ) and check out the paddles and shifting patterns.

I'm sure if Michael Shumacher used it, it's probably better than a manual. He didn't have to think about patterns or clutching or feathering the accelerator. He was left to actually spend more time driving. It's more efficient and faster than a manual.

That would be great if they do the equivalent in bicycle shifting, but they can not. Paddle shifters require the shifting computer to have complete control of the drivetrain, which as you say includes controlling the throttle. Unfortunately, bicycle shifters do not, and can not, have the equivalent of a throttle control. How precise would dual clutch paddle shifters be if the driver was left in full control of the throttle? If the transmission system had no control over the throttle, then it might be best if the human was left in control of the clutch as well. In which case the dual clutch paddle system might still be better than a single clutch manual, but not by nearly as much.

Lanternrouge
06-20-2016, 12:23 PM
My understanding is that this is true of Campy and Shimano, but not SRAM eTap.

eTap has Yaw, so it doesn't need any adjustment according to SRAM's publications. According to what they say, you can use the whole cassette. With Shimano, the front derailleur is self-trimming, which I really like.

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 12:31 PM
However, for e-shifting, whether di2/eps or wireless, you still have to mental shift. Hitting a button might be easier than shifting a wire/cable, maybe. The big advantage of Etap is how clean it looks. All they need to do now is come out with wireless breaking (you know somebody is working on it...) and man, no wires or cables!

My buddy recently picked up a Trek Domane with Etap, so clean, so beautiful. But he's one of those guys who LOVES Sram and has never tried Campy. He said it took him about 2 seconds to learn how to shift and says its very intuitive - right shifter makes it easier, left shift makes it harder and shift both levers you change rings! What's not to like?!

I've always said that it makes complete sense for an electronic shifting system to be wireless, because it makes it that much easier to install and maintain. And E-tap wasn't even the first - the Mavic Zap electronic system was wireless more than 20 years ago (although Zap eventually failed, it was other issues that sunk it).

I'm not sure why "push with one hand for harder and the other hand for easier" is somehow easier than "push with one finger for harder and the other finger for easier". Especially when front shifting is completely different. For front shifter, the E-Tap system is "push with both hands to make it either harder or easier, depending which chainring you are currently in". In converse, for Shimano and Campagnolo the "push with one finger to make it harder and the other finger to make it easier" applies to front shifting as well, just with the other hand.

I mentioned before that many bicycle components are designed for the "parking lot test", in which the product is designed to make a first good impression during a short test ride. I think this is the case with E-Tap. Analogously, many people find tablet computers more intuitive than laptop/desktop computers - a table is designed so that a user can pick it up and use it right away with virtually no learning curve. However, if a user's needs/desires are beyond the capabilities of the simple touch interface of a tablet, they will find that laptap/desktop may actually be easier to use for some applications. In this way, E-tap might be considered the tablet of shifting systems, whereas Ergo might be the laptap/desktop - Ergo has the steeper learning curve, but its extra capabilities might suit a "power user".

SoCalSteve
06-20-2016, 12:32 PM
eTap has Yaw, so it doesn't need any adjustment according to SRAM's publications. According to what they say, you can use the whole cassette. With Shimano, the front derailleur is self-trimming, which I really like.

The front derauiller on etap appears to trim. I can hear it, same as DI2. I haven't really looked closely as it just seemed to pretty much work when I installed it on the bike in the stand...

bfd
06-20-2016, 01:01 PM
I've always said that it makes complete sense for an electronic shifting system to be wireless, because it makes it that much easier to install and maintain. And E-tap wasn't even the first - the Mavic Zap electronic system was wireless more than 20 years ago (although Zap eventually failed, it was other issues that sunk it).

I'm not sure why "push with one hand for harder and the other hand for easier" is somehow easier than "push with one finger for harder and the other finger for easier". Especially when front shifting is completely different. For front shifter, the E-Tap system is "push with both hands to make it either harder or easier, depending which chainring you are currently in". In converse, for Shimano and Campagnolo the "push with one finger to make it harder and the other finger to make it easier" applies to front shifting as well, just with the other hand.

I mentioned before that many bicycle components are designed for the "parking lot test", in which the product is designed to make a first good impression during a short test ride. I think this is the case with E-Tap. Analogously, many people find tablet computers more intuitive than laptop/desktop computers - a table is designed so that a user can pick it up and use it right away with virtually no learning curve. However, if a user's needs/desires are beyond the capabilities of the simple touch interface of a tablet, they will find that laptap/desktop may actually be easier to use for some applications. In this way, E-tap might be considered the tablet of shifting systems, whereas Ergo might be the laptap/desktop - Ergo has the steeper learning curve, but its extra capabilities might suit a "power user".

Thanks. Since I'm currently an ergo user, I actually didn't find a steep learning curve. As you stated right shifter, shift paddle to go up your rear cogs and thumb shifters to go down. Same with the front/left shifter. The best thing about the front is its ratcheting. It is so easy to trim Campy shifters, unless you bought one of the ones that try to mimic Shimano and has only like 3 shift points (really, why?)

But my buddy who is coming from the worst front shifting, Sram doubletap, raves about how easy the Etap is to shift. Like I said, he said if it takes more than a few seconds to learn, you have more problems than shifting....;)

Btw, as you stated, tablets are great for touch things like apps. However, if anyone has to do any real typing - forgetaboutit! Desktops/laptops are far superior as there is a real keyboard that you can type sentences and paragraphs on, it is so much easier than on a tablet.

I guess coming from downtube shifters, I found Campy ergos intuitive and easy. I found sram double tap, at least the front, to be complex and bulky. Maybe if the bike I was riding had a "yaw" FD that might have made the difference. But with Campy front, you can use basically any FD and it works perfectly, i.e., on both of my bikes, one has an old C-Record FD and the other is using a 7400 DA FD, both work perfectly.

I will admit that the Sram wireless does make a bike look so clean - here's what my buddy's bike looks like:

http://trek.scene7.com/is/image/TrekBicycleProducts/1477090_2017_A_2_Domane_SLR_9_eTap?wid=1200&hei=1200&fit=fit,1&fmt=png8-alpha&qlt=30,1&op_usm=0,0,0,0&iccEmbed=0&extend=24,324,144,188

Can't wait for wireless braking! Good Luck!

nooneline
06-20-2016, 01:04 PM
The eTap shifting approach makes total sense - I think that early on in electronic shifting, companies were making them 'just like mechanical shifting' so that it didn't come across as too radical, too different.

A perfect example is Campy - they put a ton of work into making the EPS button click feel a lot like the mechanical click.

But after a while we start to ask questions, like, why are there two buttons for the front derailleur when one button would suffice? If the front shifting is so good then why not just have sequential shifting? Do we need this two-buttons-on-two-levers shifting scheme? Etc.

saab2000
06-20-2016, 01:07 PM
The eTap shifting approach makes total sense - I think that early on in electronic shifting, companies were making them 'just like mechanical shifting' so that it didn't come across as too radical, too different.

A perfect example is Campy - they put a ton of work into making the EPS button click feel a lot like the mechanical click.

But after a while we start to ask questions, like, why are there two buttons for the front derailleur when one button would suffice? If the front shifting is so good then why not just have sequential shifting? Do we need this two-buttons-on-two-levers shifting scheme? Etc.

I think the perceptible click is partly in response to early Di2, which had a click that was imperceptible to some, especially wearing thicker gloves.

I rode Di2 once early on and didn't like it much at all, opting for mechanical Dura Ace when I wanted to try something other than Campagnolo.

If I were to try electronic shifting, I think EPS still would rank higher for me than Di2, partly because of the feel of the lever.

ltwtsculler91
06-20-2016, 01:14 PM
I think the perceptible click is partly in response to early Di2, which had a click that was imperceptible to some, especially wearing thicker gloves.

I rode Di2 once early on and didn't like it much at all, opting for mechanical Dura Ace when I wanted to try something other than Campagnolo.

If I were to try electronic shifting, I think EPS still would rank higher for me than Di2, partly because of the feel of the lever.

SRAM did the same with ETap. The paddles have a solid click feel to them, rather than the button push with Di2.

I'll probably stick to mechanical shifting for my next bike, due to cost, but both ETap and EPS v3 are intriguing to me, especially the programmable shift buttons feature for cEPS

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 01:22 PM
I own both Campagnolo and Shimano and can transition between them thoughtlessly. About once a month or so I'll try to shift the wrong way! Otherwise it's totally unconscious.

As to the manual shifting, honestly, I'm so over it. My current car is a VW GTI and I've owned manuals my whole life. The first car I ever drove was a manual, so I've got over 30 years of experience driving them.

If I ever get a Mazda Miata again I'll get a manual, otherwise my next car is probably an automatic. That's major league thread drift! But I'm so tired of the three-limb dance in heavy traffic or in stop and go traffic on inclines.

In the old days, manual transmission cars usually had better gas mileage, and also usually had more brake horsepower (power at the wheels) than otherwise identical automatic transmission cars. This was largely due to the greater efficiency of manual transmissions.

Today, automatic transmission cars can have equal to, or sometimes better efficiency and power than manual transmission cars. However, this is only partially due to improvements in automatic transmission efficiency. The largest part of the improvement is that computerized engine control systems can better sense and adjust the operation of the engine, and the automatic transmissions allow the engine control system to select the most efficient engine speed/gear ratio for a given situation. With a manual transmission, although the engine control computer can still adjust the operation of the engine, it relies on the human to select the gear ratio, and the human may not always pick the optimal gear ratio. The trade-off between the efficiency of the manual transmission and the imprecision of the human selecting the gear ratios often comes out as a wash.

On a bicycle, the electronic shifting system has virtually no feedback from the human engine regarding its present condition or efficiency. Until it does, an automatic transmission bicycle gear train is not likely to be very effective, and for best results, the human should remain in charge of gear selection.

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 01:33 PM
The eTap shifting approach makes total sense - I think that early on in electronic shifting, companies were making them 'just like mechanical shifting' so that it didn't come across as too radical, too different.

A perfect example is Campy - they put a ton of work into making the EPS button click feel a lot like the mechanical click.

But after a while we start to ask questions, like, why are there two buttons for the front derailleur when one button would suffice? If the front shifting is so good then why not just have sequential shifting? Do we need this two-buttons-on-two-levers shifting scheme? Etc.

I've said this before, but I also agree that electronic shifting systems user controls aren't creative enough. As you say, they largely mimic mechanical systems. Without the limitations imposed by having to pull a cable a set distance per gear, there is a wealth of possibilities about how to control shifting.

I'm thinking that maybe a better system might be some type of click wheel. this could be mounted in the body of the lever, to rotate on the same axis as the shift paddles levers. Only, instead of pushing a lever, you would rotate the click wheel any number of "clicks", where each click represents moving an additional sprocket, and you can rotate the click wheel in either direction, one direction for harder gears, one direction for easier gears. There could digit display on the "horn" of the lever indicating the current gear position. With the click wheels, you could go to any gear combination by turning the click wheels the appropriate number of clicks, and the shifting system would take of moving the derailleurs at the right times to the right locations.

Mark McM
06-20-2016, 01:44 PM
Not sure if you know this about electronic shifting, but it adjusts the front derailleur for you so if you are crossed chained, the derailleur knows this and moves the cage out of the way. Leaves you more time and energy to concentrate on cycling...:p

In my experience, you can set up a Campagnolo 10spd front derailleur so that no trimming is required when in the big ring. In the small ring, you might need 1 click of trimming when in the small/small combination - but at this point, the chain will also be rubbing against the side of the big chainring (which can't be eliminated with derailleur trim), so you probably don't want to use this combination anyway.

wallymann
06-20-2016, 01:50 PM
I'm thinking that maybe a better system might be some type of click wheel.

click-wheels are incredibly intuitive interfaces, especially when you dont want/need to avail yourself of fine motor skills. i.e., riding on the rivet with gloved hands in pissing cold/rain.

they were great interfaces in PDAs and early smart-phones, very functional -- remember how easy it was to do many thing with these devices 1-handed w/o really paying attention?

with the advent of touch-screens, they've sadly gone the way of the DoDo.

EDS
06-20-2016, 01:56 PM
I've said this before, but I also agree that electronic shifting systems user controls aren't creative enough. As you say, they largely mimic mechanical systems. Without the limitations imposed by having to pull a cable a set distance per gear, there is a wealth of possibilities about how to control shifting.

I'm thinking that maybe a better system might be some type of click wheel. this could be mounted in the body of the lever, to rotate on the same axis as the shift paddles levers. Only, instead of pushing a lever, you would rotate the click wheel any number of "clicks", where each click represents moving an additional sprocket, and you can rotate the click wheel in either direction, one direction for harder gears, one direction for easier gears. There could digit display on the "horn" of the lever indicating the current gear position. With the click wheels, you could go to any gear combination by turning the click wheels the appropriate number of clicks, and the shifting system would take of moving the derailleurs at the right times to the right locations.

Sounds a bit like gripshift.

I think the Garmin integration already allows for display of gear combinations.

velomonkey
06-20-2016, 02:13 PM
Only thing I can add to this conversation is that I rode my record mechanical yesterday after months of riding EPS. It was a joy to go back to mechanical and as others have said, and I have said as well, the ability to dump gears and dual shift on campy mechanical is awesome.

Shifting up to the 53 is where the pain point is for mechanical - it's not the trim (that's easy) - it's the load it takes to swing the lever and pull the derailleur which is getting massive friction from the spring.

mvrider
06-20-2016, 03:12 PM
Only thing I can add to this conversation is that I rode my record mechanical yesterday after months of riding EPS. It was a joy to go back to mechanical and as others have said, and I have said as well, the ability to dump gears and dual shift on campy mechanical is awesome.


I have the same sensation when I pick up and handle my Nikon FM2 or FE2. The mechanical feedback is just so satisfying compared to the soulless DSLR.

One difference is that a DSLR gives me much better image quality than I ever achieved with the best slide film, while electronic shifting would not make me go any faster or farther.

batman1425
06-20-2016, 03:25 PM
But after a while we start to ask questions, like, why are there two buttons for the front derailleur when one button would suffice?

I've always wondered about this... On all of the road electronic groups, your FD can only be in 1 of 2 positions - big ring or small ring. Why do you need 2 buttons to move between 2 states? A click of a single button could move the chain to whatever ring it isn't currently in.

The only reasonable argument I've heard for a 2 button FD setup is that if you mix up what ring you are in and shift anyway, it won't move. Example - "I'm about to barf up a lung on this climb, I must be in the big ring still, I'll just shift down... click... nothing... :crap:". An internal blow to your ego, but that's about it. It could be a bigger problem to get tossed into the opposite ring than you are expecting, but I think that scenario is probably pretty rare at least for FD shifts. I'm typically 99% sure where my FD is. I do however frequently reach for another gear on the rear going up climbs just to find I'm SOL.

mistermo
06-20-2016, 03:42 PM
I've always wondered about this... On all of the road electronic groups, your FD can only be in 1 of 2 positions - big ring or small ring. Why do you need 2 buttons to move between 2 states? A click of a single button could move the chain to whatever ring it isn't currently in.

The only reasonable argument I've heard for a 2 button FD setup is that if you mix up what ring you are in and shift anyway, it won't move. Example - "I'm about to barf up a lung on this climb, I must be in the big ring still, I'll just shift down... click... nothing... :crap:". An internal blow to your ego, but that's about it. It could be a bigger problem to get tossed into the opposite ring than you are expecting, but I think that scenario is probably pretty rare at least for FD shifts. I'm typically 99% sure where my FD is. I do however frequently reach for another gear on the rear going up climbs just to find I'm SOL.

^^I was an early adopter of SRAM doubletap and ditched it for this reason. When going up hill, I'd go for another, easier gear, and learn I was SOL, when I didn't get the second click. By then it was too late, and I'd go to the harder cog, opposite of the intended result. I hear this has been corrected, but I didn't stick around for it.

Pastashop
06-20-2016, 03:51 PM
I have the same sensation when I pick up and handle my Nikon FM2 or FE2. The mechanical feedback is just so satisfying compared to the soulless DSLR.

One difference is that a DSLR gives me much better image quality than I ever achieved with the best slide film, while electronic shifting would not make me go any faster or farther.

Interestingly, DSLR growth and growth of digital photography as a popular experience is much more than image quality. The big "prize" of digital photography was bypassing the print altogether – for the majority of people, that is. Not to open a can of worms regarding print vs. digital display of photography – that's for another forum – but the main point is that it wasn't just the image-capture (e.g. Nikon CoolPix or D50) that changed with digital photography, but also the distribution (FaceBook) and display (laptops, iPads, smartphones). The first growth spurt in photography came initially with simplifying it ("You press the button, we do the rest!" was Kodak's slogan), and then allowing it to simplify even further via digital infrastructure – networks & smartphones.

There isn't really the equivalent of that for cycling, unless you go all the way to electric motor-powered bikes. And then you have to wonder, what's the whole point?..

Somewhere along the way we hit a sweetspot of the experience of bicycling being enhanced by the technology, and it's been diminishing returns ever since. Wheels and frames that could last for >20,000kms, 20-25 lb bikes that could be bought for $1,000 and repaired for less, gears that could be shifted without getting off the bike, and bike-able roadways – all those things came about decades and decades ago. What's gotten far worse is the infrastructure for cycling, and these advances aren't really helping.

But I'm intrigued very much by what advanced batteries and electric motors could do to scale up bicycling, although it may end up looking very different for the majority of people than it does now...

Bob Ross
06-20-2016, 03:59 PM
eTap has Yaw, so it doesn't need any adjustment according to SRAM's publications. According to what they say, you can use the whole cassette.
The front derauiller on etap appears to trim. I can hear it, same as DI2. I haven't really looked closely as it just seemed to pretty much work when I installed it on the bike in the stand...

Geez, I gotta look into that. Lack of some sort of trim seems like it could almost be a dealbreaker. Not because I don't believe that SRAM's system "works" (sic) but because I suspect in order for it to work you need to go all in with their matching crankset...and that for me could be an aesthetic dealbreaker!

batman1425
06-20-2016, 04:11 PM
^^I was an early adopter of SRAM doubletap and ditched it for this reason. When going up hill, I'd go for another, easier gear, and learn I was SOL, when I didn't get the second click. By then it was too late, and I'd go to the harder cog, opposite of the intended result. I hear this has been corrected, but I didn't stick around for it.

Yep, in the later versions - a bail out mechanism was incorporated so that if you try to downshift beyond the largest cog, it clicks over to the same gear, rather than executing a upshift. This also helps protect the mechanism from damage from trying to force it beyond the limit of der movement - which I believe was a contributor to the shift paddle breakage problems of the early-mid generation stuff.

batman1425
06-20-2016, 04:15 PM
Geez, I gotta look into that. Lack of some sort of trim seems like it could almost be a dealbreaker. Not because I don't believe that SRAM's system "works" (sic) but because I suspect in order for it to work you need to go all in with their matching crankset...and that for me could be an aesthetic dealbreaker!

I don't find that the cage rubs with the yaw system - but do get a lot of noise from the chain hitting the back of the big ring in the small-small combinations and general chain noise in the big-big range from forcing a lot of lateral flex. This is likely exacerbated by the short-ish chain stays on that bike they are "within range" according to Sram tech specs. No rub on the cage though.

bfd
06-20-2016, 05:06 PM
Geez, I gotta look into that. Lack of some sort of trim seems like it could almost be a dealbreaker. Not because I don't believe that SRAM's system "works" (sic) but because I suspect in order for it to work you need to go all in with their matching crankset...and that for me could be an aesthetic dealbreaker!

This is interesting. I guess that old saying - "to each their own "applies here. I find the 4-arm cranks from Shimano and Campy to be much more "aesthetically-challenging" than the Red crankset which actually seems kind of benign:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0349/7357/products/ck4266.jpeg?v=1462510418

Good Luck!

mistermo
06-21-2016, 08:44 AM
... but because I suspect in order for it to work you need to go all in with their matching crankset...and that for me could be an aesthetic dealbreaker!

FWIW, I run Red cranksets on 11s Campy bikes. I like the Rotor rings and it's MUCH easier to find 110/74 Rotor rings for a 5 arm Red crankset than 4 arm Campy or Shimano. I have ZERO issues with either the Rotor rings or running SRAM cranks on an otherwise Campy bike. I prefer the looks of a 5 arm crankset, but the 4 arm has grown on me to the point that I'm now pretty much indifferent. Point is, that for the most part, a crankset is a crankset is a crankset. The parts that affect the shifting are the rings and derailleurs, and there's not that much difference in the rings.

Bob Ross
06-21-2016, 08:52 AM
The parts that affect the shifting are the rings and derailleurs, and there's not that much difference in the rings.

I hope that's true. fwiw when Di2 first came out a Shimano employee doing demos at my LBS was saying that the electronic system required "extra stiff" chainrings and that they didn't recommend using it with anyone else's chainrings, including any of Shimano's earlier models. Always suspected that line was just salesmanship, but never sure.

mistermo
06-21-2016, 08:57 AM
I hope that's true. fwiw when Di2 first came out a Shimano employee doing demos at my LBS was saying that the electronic system required "extra stiff" chainrings and that they didn't recommend using it with anyone else's chainrings, including any of Shimano's earlier models. Always suspected that line was just salesmanship, but never sure.

I went to the SRAM open house here in Indy this past weekend. They told me SRAM components and cranks would only work with SRAM rings. I know that to be false. I don't blame them for trying though. Yes, salesmanship. However, I will concede that each system is 'optimized' for it's own brand of rings. But I have a tough time telling the real world difference when mixing cranks or chainrings.

There were plenty of eTap equipped bikes on hand. They auctioned a six piece eTap group for ~$2600. Proceeds went to World Bicycle Relief. We were given a tour of the Zipp factory and saw all the uber secret testing lab stuff. I find it hard to believe any other company has the equipment and resources that Zipp has. Despite what Old Potatoe says, SRAM is good people.
http://www.worldbicyclerelief.org/

chiasticon
06-21-2016, 09:03 AM
I hope that's true. fwiw when Di2 first came out a Shimano employee doing demos at my LBS was saying that the electronic system required "extra stiff" chainrings and that they didn't recommend using it with anyone else's chainrings, including any of Shimano's earlier models. Always suspected that line was just salesmanship, but never sure.Sram throws out a similar line: that you have to use it with any of their 22 speed cranksets. fwiw, even though the yaw FD is 11 speed specific, I've not had issues with it on either 10 or 11 speed groups/chainrings, including with chainrings from them, Wickwerks, Shimano, Thorne, and FSA (and half the time, those were with Shimano 10 speed cranksets). not using etap tho. to be honest, the lack of trim with Sram yaw is why I can't move to other mechanical groups. it just works. and you get all of the cassette with no futzing about.

mistermo
06-21-2016, 09:06 AM
... and you get all of the cassette with no futzing about.

Like this??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272161021668?euid=cdf2cf93adbe4006b3fb81cebe2e8a9f&bu=43210820584&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu

SoCalSteve
06-21-2016, 10:58 AM
That would be great if they do the equivalent in bicycle shifting, but they can not. Paddle shifters require the shifting computer to have complete control of the drivetrain, which as you say includes controlling the throttle. Unfortunately, bicycle shifters do not, and can not, have the equivalent of a throttle control. How precise would dual clutch paddle shifters be if the driver was left in full control of the throttle? If the transmission system had no control over the throttle, then it might be best if the human was left in control of the clutch as well. In which case the dual clutch paddle system might still be better than a single clutch manual, but not by nearly as much.

I never said that the throttle control was left up to the paddle shifting. You still have to use the gas pedal to accelerate. Have you ever driven a modern day dual clutch transmission? It still requires input, it does not, as you put it: have complete control of the drivetrain. There is still this pesky little thing called a gas pedal.

And, bicycles do have throttle control. It's called pedaling. There is no difference. This so called feedback you think is missing is there with Etap in spades with a definite feel and sound every time you shift. I would think you would be happy that you don't have to feather the front derailleur manually, electronic shifting does that for you. Leave you more time to concentrate on other things, like the road, vehicles, other cyclists, etc.

You can rationalize it all you want, but you get to the exact same place with lots of feedback with Etap. Not so much with DI2. I've never used or even touched EPS, so I cannot comment.

I suggest you try Etap and then make up your mind...in the real world, not a parking lot. While your at it, drive any number of cars with a dual clutch paddle shifting gearbox.

Then let's chat.

Mark McM
06-21-2016, 12:35 PM
I never said that the throttle control was left up to the paddle shifting. You still have to use the gas pedal to accelerate. Have you ever driven a modern day dual clutch transmission? It still requires input, it does not, as you put it: have complete control of the drivetrain. There is still this pesky little thing called a gas pedal.

Modern autos do not have direct throttle control. The accelerator pedal is merely an input to the engine control computer. Paddle shifter transmissions can control the throttle as necessary to assure smooth shifting.

And, bicycles do have throttle control. It's called pedaling. There is no difference. This so called feedback you think is missing is there with Etap in spades with a definite feel and sound every time you shift. I would think you would be happy that you don't have to feather the front derailleur manually, electronic shifting does that for you. Leave you more time to concentrate on other things, like the road, vehicles, other cyclists, etc.

Actually, this is the difference. On a bicycle, the "throttle" control (pedal forces) are completely under direct human control, but the shifting is not, whereas in a car with electronic shifting, both throttle and transmission are under direct computer control. The bicycle electronic shifters have input buttons/levers to tell the derailleurs what sprocket/chainring combination to be in, but the human does not directly control when it actually performs the shift - the system decides that. The bicycle electronic shifting system thus becomes a partially open loop system, where neither the shifters nor the human are in direct control.

You can rationalize it all you want, but you get to the exact same place with lots of feedback with Etap. Not so much with DI2. I've never used or even touched EPS, so I cannot comment.

I'm not rationalizing, I'm just stating facts. An electronic derailleur shifting system (DI2, E-Tap, EPS) does not have full sensory input to the system (which includes the human operator), so neither shifters nor the human have complete control and feedback, whereas in a mechanical shifting system the human has completely control and feedback. The human may learn to adapt to electronic shifting, but with a well trained operator the mechanical shifting may perform better in many situations. As I stated before, with Ergo shifters I can shift across my entire gear train (small/small to big/big) in about 2 seconds, or stop anywhere in the middle. Can you do that with E-Tap?

oldpotatoe
06-21-2016, 12:59 PM
So you are in your lowest gear...mash RH shifter, down the cogset the chain goes, 1/2 way down, you push LH lever, whilst holding RH lever...does Rear Der stop, the front shift, then continue after letting go of LH lever or does it catapult you into an alternate universe or just blow up? SoCalSteve???

SoCalSteve
06-21-2016, 03:38 PM
Modern autos do not have direct throttle control. The accelerator pedal is merely an input to the engine control computer. Paddle shifter transmissions can control the throttle as necessary to assure smooth shifting.



Actually, this is the difference. On a bicycle, the "throttle" control (pedal forces) are completely under direct human control, but the shifting is not, whereas in a car with electronic shifting, both throttle and transmission are under direct computer control. The bicycle electronic shifters have input buttons/levers to tell the derailleurs what sprocket/chainring combination to be in, but the human does not directly control when it actually performs the shift - the system decides that. The bicycle electronic shifting system thus becomes a partially open loop system, where neither the shifters nor the human are in direct control.



I'm not rationalizing, I'm just stating facts. An electronic derailleur shifting system (DI2, E-Tap, EPS) does not have full sensory input to the system (which includes the human operator), so neither shifters nor the human have complete control and feedback, whereas in a mechanical shifting system the human has completely control and feedback. The human may learn to adapt to electronic shifting, but with a well trained operator the mechanical shifting may perform better in many situations. As I stated before, with Ergo shifters I can shift across my entire gear train (small/small to big/big) in about 2 seconds, or stop anywhere in the middle. Can you do that with E-Tap?

I read your posting during my ride and I did exactly that. Yes, works perfectly. Hold down right button: chain goes efficiently, quickly and quietly across all 11 cogs and I did it in reverse ( left shifter ) and yes, the same.

My question is: why does this matter? I've been riding road bikes for almost 20 years and there has never once been a situation where I had to shift more than 3 gears at a time. Not sure where or how you ride, but this isn't an issue for me in the real world.

SoCalSteve
06-21-2016, 03:42 PM
So you are in your lowest gear...mash RH shifter, down the cogset the chain goes, 1/2 way down, you push LH lever, whilst holding RH lever...does Rear Der stop, the front shift, then continue after letting go of LH lever or does it catapult you into an alternate universe or just blow up? SoCalSteve???

Not so sure about the alternate universe part or blowing up. I will give this scenario a whirl tomorrow on my ride. Not so sure why you would do this though.

Here is what I did do today: shifted from small to big, took my hand off the right and shifted down 3 gears with my left hand still on the shifter button. Pretty seamless. Can't imagine needing to anything but this scenario going up or down the gears.

Black Dog
06-21-2016, 04:16 PM
This is interesting. I guess that old saying - "to each their own "applies here. I find the 4-arm cranks from Shimano and Campy to be much more "aesthetically-challenging" than the Red crankset which actually seems kind of benign:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0349/7357/products/ck4266.jpeg?v=1462510418

Good Luck!

I would agree. This is the best looking crank among the big 3. Campy 2 and Shimano a distant 3rd.

Bob Ross
06-22-2016, 11:20 AM
This just in:
http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/sram-red-etap-first-ride-review

Bob Ross
01-27-2018, 05:59 PM
Haven't tried it; have spent a lot of time thinking about how it works and how one would use it. My skepticism is based more on the overcoming of long-ingrained muscle memory than in any notion that eTap is inherently nonsensical.

I've been shifting up and down on the RD with my right hand for ~46 years. Given how many times I biff a shift on my 3-month-old Campy-equipped bike after riding Shimano STI for 10 years -- where the difference is simply lever assignment rather than hand assignment (which is arguably a much greater paradigm shift) -- I envision the learning curve for fully integrating & absorbing eTap to be substantial.

Now, the fact that the two or three early adopters I've spoken to about eTap have all claimed that the learning curve was non-existant and they "got it" immediately makes me very curious about how such a seemingly large paradigm shift can be so easily incorporated by the brain.

Update: So, I just had my 7-year-old S&S coupled Carl Strong road bike re-fitted with eTap.

...not because I'm so convinced that "Electronic Shifting Is The Way Of The Future!" but simply because I was getting sick of what an ordeal it was to pack the bike in the S&S case when A) the shifter cables couldn't be removed from the frame due to non-slotted headset-mounted cable guide/tensioners, which severely limited where you could put the bars during the whole disassembly/packing procedure; and B) being a relatively large frame, space was already at a premium, and making the bars fit without forcing the front wheel somewhere I (or TSA) didn't want it to go was becoming an issue.

So I got eTap mostly so I could completely remove the bars and stick them in a separate suitcase when I travel with the bike.

But, to my earlier point re: paradigm shifts & muscle memory, I've only ridden the eTap bike once, but I already see that it's easier to grok than Campy was after a lifetime of riding Shimano. Well, almost. I had to be very conscious of how I was downshifting in the rear; it will definitely still take a few more rides before I can completely wrap my head around Use Your Left Hand For Downshifts. But using the right hand for upshifts was so intuitive and automatic that I was almost surprised. And using two hands for FD status swap seemed no weirder than any other method of shifting the chainrings, and it was so much easier than any mechanical system I've ever used that I wonder if that isn't the real game-changer for any electronic shifting system?

Anyway, so I'm now building new neural pathways: My four bikes use four different shifting paradigms (eTap, Ultegra 6600, Campy Record, and Suntour downtube friction shifters) so every time I climb on a bike I need to recalibrate my brain!

SoCalSteve
01-27-2018, 08:45 PM
Update: So, I just had my 7-year-old S&S coupled Carl Strong road bike re-fitted with eTap.

...not because I'm so convinced that "Electronic Shifting Is The Way Of The Future!" but simply because I was getting sick of what an ordeal it was to pack the bike in the S&S case when A) the shifter cables couldn't be removed from the frame due to non-slotted headset-mounted cable guide/tensioners, which severely limited where you could put the bars during the whole disassembly/packing procedure; and B) being a relatively large frame, space was already at a premium, and making the bars fit without forcing the front wheel somewhere I (or TSA) didn't want it to go was becoming an issue.

So I got eTap mostly so I could completely remove the bars and stick them in a separate suitcase when I travel with the bike.

But, to my earlier point re: paradigm shifts & muscle memory, I've only ridden the eTap bike once, but I already see that it's easier to grok than Campy was after a lifetime of riding Shimano. Well, almost. I had to be very conscious of how I was downshifting in the rear; it will definitely still take a few more rides before I can completely wrap my head around Use Your Left Hand For Downshifts. But using the right hand for upshifts was so intuitive and automatic that I was almost surprised. And using two hands for FD status swap seemed no weirder than any other method of shifting the chainrings, and it was so much easier than any mechanical system I've ever used that I wonder if that isn't the real game-changer for any electronic shifting system?

Anyway, so I'm now building new neural pathways: My four bikes use four different shifting paradigms (eTap, Ultegra 6600, Campy Record, and Suntour downtube friction shifters) so every time I climb on a bike I need to recalibrate my brain!

Happy you revived this thread!

And, happy that you had a chance to use ETap. Once you have a couple hundred miles under your belt ( chamois ) you will find that you won’t even have to think about it. It’s very intuitive.

Enjoy!

R3awak3n
01-27-2018, 08:48 PM
I will also have a different shifting group on all my bikes. It is going to get weird

Shimano hydros on my elephant
campy chorus on my parlee
etap on my english

I think I will get used to the etap, the shimano is the one that will be the problem

happycampyer
01-27-2018, 08:58 PM
I will also have a different shifting group on all my bikes. It is going to get weird

Shimano hydros on my elephant
campy chorus on my parlee
etap on my english

I think I will get used to the etap, the shimano is the one that will be the problemThis is how I am, too. As a long-time Campy user, eTap is definitely much more intuitive to switch to vs. Di2. One thing I miss with eTap is the ability to shift the front and rear derailleurs at the same time (using the thumb shifters on Campy). I had the shop program the Di2 buttons so that the up and down shifts are closer to Campy, but I still end up mis-shifting if I'm not paying attention.

Bob Ross
01-28-2018, 08:44 AM
One thing I miss with eTap is the ability to shift the front and rear derailleurs at the same time

If I'm not mistaken (I didn't have a chance to confirm on the one ride I've done on the bike so far) the eTap version of a double-shift is achieved by doing a front chainring shift and then releasing only one of your pressed levers. Should result in a not-quite-simultaneous-but-reasonably-quick sequential front-then-rear shift.

Given that nothing in eTap seems to occur instantaneously, that strikes me as good enough for government work.

SoCalSteve
01-28-2018, 09:57 AM
If I'm not mistaken (I didn't have a chance to confirm on the one ride I've done on the bike so far) the eTap version of a double-shift is achieved by doing a front chainring shift and then releasing only one of your pressed levers. Should result in a not-quite-simultaneous-but-reasonably-quick sequential front-then-rear shift.

Given that nothing in eTap seems to occur instantaneously, that strikes me as good enough for government work.

You are correct in the shifting pattern you describe. It is fast enough unless you are a pro racer...

And, I have found that using a Shimano chain and cassette tightens up the shifting, makes it a bit faster, less clunky and less noisy. It’s pretty quick.

The one thing that SRAM might want to consider is allowing the end user to speed up the rear derailleur shifting at the expense of shorter battery life. My understanding is that they slowed it down to get longer battery life.

54ny77
01-28-2018, 09:59 AM
The more things change, the more they stay the same!

(I have two bikes with early generation Red, both have Shimano cassettes and chains.)


And, I have found that using a Shimano chain and cassette tightens up the shifting, makes it a bit faster, less clunky and less noisy. It’s pretty quick.

happycampyer
01-28-2018, 10:53 AM
If I’m not mistaken...<snip>That’s very cool, thanks! It’s a bit like learning the tricks of a new smartphone.

I’m with Steve that the speed of the shifting is not that bothersome. I’m not even sure if it’s actually slower or if it’s just perception. It feels (to me at least) as if the shift is happening when the lever is in the return phase.

R3awak3n
01-28-2018, 11:10 AM
You are correct in the shifting pattern you describe. It is fast enough unless you are a pro racer...

And, I have found that using a Shimano chain and cassette tightens up the shifting, makes it a bit faster, less clunky and less noisy. It’s pretty quick.

The one thing that SRAM might want to consider is allowing the end user to speed up the rear derailleur shifting at the expense of shorter battery life. My understanding is that they slowed it down to get longer battery life.

But aren’t some pro teams using etap?

I have not used it on the bike but seems fast enough for me on the stand. If you hold it it is indeed slow but if you click as fast as you can its pretry fast to me.

That said I would like sram to let me choose, also to let me choose what each click does. I would immideately reverse it, right click goes up, left click down. I like the press both and derailleur shifts.

FlashUNC
01-28-2018, 01:57 PM
It shifts plenty fast.

SoCalSteve
01-28-2018, 02:56 PM
But aren’t some pro teams using etap?

I have not used it on the bike but seems fast enough for me on the stand. If you hold it it is indeed slow but if you click as fast as you can its pretry fast to me.

That said I would like sram to let me choose, also to let me choose what each click does. I would immideately reverse it, right click goes up, left click down. I like the press both and derailleur shifts.

This is one nice thing about DI2. But honestly, I’m happy with the way ETap shifts right out of the box. It surely says something about their research and development that they have not had to do any firmware or software updates.

simonov
01-28-2018, 04:08 PM
The more things change, the more they stay the same!

(I have two bikes with early generation Red, both have Shimano cassettes and chains.)

I suspect it's mostly the change in cassette. Red cassettes are light, but don't shift great. Force or Ultegra cassette are great with eTap.