Gun pulled on cyclist, cyclist arrested.

[alembical]

Enough wrong to go around, but an off duty NYPD officer pulls gun on cyclist and cyclist arrested.

http://gawker.com/crazed-greenwich-village-gunman-also-off-duty-nypd-offi-1781972403

An argument between a driver and bike messengers in Manhattan yesterday almost became deadly when the driver pulled out a gun. Reports of a gunman spread, and a local elementary school was even put on lockdown, but thankfully police and firefighters arrived before anyone was shot.

Then an unarmed bicyclist was arrested, and not the angry man with the gun, because the angry man with a gun was also an off-duty cop.

As reported by WABC-TV and the New York Daily News, the confrontation began when the driver apparently drove into the bike lane, causing the cyclists to yell at him (and, police claim, hit his side-view mirror or his window), whereupon the officer (in plainclothes, and without identifying himself as a police officer) exited his car and drew his gun.

WABC:

“He did not even say he was a cop. Literally got out of car with his weapon drawn,” a biker said.

“We kept asking him, identify yourself. He just wouldn’t,” another friend of the biker’s said.

As word spread through the village that there was a gunman on the loose, a nearby elementary school was put on temporary lockdown instead of regular dismissal.

On-duty cops eventually arrived and, naturally, arrested one of the cyclists: Dejaune Jones, 19, who was charged with criminal mischief, criminal possession of a weapon, menacing and harassment. The gun-wielding cop was not arrested, nor has he been identified. (The Daily News says he is a sergeant.)

Police claim Jones had an icepick, though they did not recover an icepick from the scene and all the bicyclists involved deny that any of them were armed. Video of the the confrontation was captured by one of the cyclists. Another video is on WABC’s website.

[Louis]

Wow - he even holds his gun sideways. Must think that he's in a TV show.

[Dead Man]

My guess is Offduty pulled his gun to be a thug, not a cop.

[bluto]

My guess is Offduty pulled his gun to be a thug, not a cop.

Exactly....."without" that gun that guy would've been laughed at

[paredown]

My guess is Offduty pulled his gun to be a thug, not a cop.

Yep--but he got professional courtesy when the poo-leese showed up.

Charging the cyclist & claiming he was armed with an ice pick--even by NYC's finest standards, that it reaching for it. It was a roust.

BTW, the standing joke is, NYC bike lanes are so the police and taxis have a place to park...

[velomonkey]

In the parallel universe of a cop internet site or a gun owner site I bet tons of users at those sites are saying "we, as off duty cops, shoulder some of the blame for how people mistrust us" or "we, as permitted conceal carry, gun owners shoulder some of the blame for how people perceive us."

[Louis]

In the parallel universe of a cop internet site or a gun owner site I bet tons of users at those sites are saying "we, as off duty cops, shoulder some of the blame for how people mistrust us" or "we, as permitted conceal carry, gun owners shoulder some of the blame for how people perceive us."

Must be some sort of anti-matter universe, compared to this one.

[regularguy412]

In the parallel universe of a cop internet site or a gun owner site I bet tons of users at those sites are saying "we, as off duty cops, shoulder some of the blame for how people mistrust us" or "we, as permitted conceal carry, gun owners shoulder some of the blame for how people perceive us."

Riiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhttt.............. ;)

And they have a few bridges for sale in their local areas.

Mike in AR:beer:

[astrov]

I thought Gawker was bankrupt?

Also, where did this cop come up with "ice pick"? Has he been watching A Bronx Tale?

[Black Dog]

Justice. Not.

[regularguy412]

Addendum:

I've considered floating the idea of jerseys for our local small group with the following emblazoned large on the back:

We Support Our
Local Sheriff

(and also have just the grip and a portion of the barrel of a .45 auto mag screened into the area just ABOVE the left-most back pocket)

The next best thing to open carry?

:D

Mike in AR:beer:

[BobO]

I have a tendency to believe that the off duty cop behaved badly. But, the telling of the story by Gawker is awful with an obvious sensationalist bias. It's probably wise to seek out multiple sources on this one.

[cadence90]

I'm curious: are off-duty officers required to identify themselves as police when they involve themselves?

[Louis]

I'm curious: are off-duty officers required to identify themselves as police when they involve themselves?

Regardless of what's required by law, I'd think if they start to wave a gun around that would be a good idea, otherwise someone might take them to be who knows what.

[ultraman6970]

The whole NYPD needs to have psicological examinations or something, the worse thing is that this kid even having the best lawyer in the whole country that is friend with the judge wont be able to get crap out of this incident.

THe NYPD needs to be disbanded and put back together with good people.

What abuse of power.

[Dead Man]

Regardless of what's required by law, I'd think if they start to wave a gun around that would be a good idea, otherwise someone might take them to be who knows what.

And if you don't ID yourself, that's the first clue your gun is out in gangsta-mode, not cop-mode.

[regularguy412]

OK. So. Cop or not, in no way should a smack on a window or mirror require a threat of lethal force. I mean, the punishment (or potential punishment) should fit the (presumed) crime, eh?

Mike in AR:beer:

PS: Even if he is a cop, it smacks (pardon the allusion) of vigilante justice.

[peanutgallery]

The arm tattoos he appears to have would make me doubt he was a cop even if he announced himself. Looks more skin head or something, lots of anger in the pic

[notsew]

I can't believe how the cyclist just keeps going after the cop, even with his gun out. Thems some big ol brass balls. I'd be working off the assumption that if a cop was nutty enough to pull his gun like that in plain clothes, he'd nutty enough to shoot some body.

[cadence90]

Another thing that I find odd:
“We kept asking him, identify yourself. He just wouldn’t,” another friend of the biker’s said.

I mean, if that guy was pointing a gun at me, I don't think that I would be repeatedly asking him to identify himself. :confused:

[Aaron O]

The whole NYPD needs to have psicological examinations or something, the worse thing is that this kid even having the best lawyer in the whole country that is friend with the judge wont be able to get crap out of this incident.

THe NYPD needs to be disbanded and put back together with good people.

What abuse of power.

Several years back I was riding when i watched an incident between a car and a scooter in front of me. The car was driving erratically and I held back because I was afraid. The auto eventually knocked the scooter over, stopped and a guy came out of the car - gun drawn. I called the police (and held back). The gun holder was loud and abusive while the scooter driver was terrified.

Police showed up...I expected gun guy to be arrested. I went over to an officer and told him how out of control gun guy was and how he hit him with his car. The officer just stared at me. Scooter guy was cuffed. I asked didn't he hear what I said? He told me to shut up and mind my own business; gun guy was a detective in homicide. I argued...he asked me if I wanted to be brought in on disorderly. I asked him his name, he told me to leave now and that I was a smart ass.

In my younger days I'd have stood my ground...but I left. I went home...wrote to the mayor, chief of police and contacted a friend in the media. I didn't have photos and was essentially dismissed.

I'm an educated white guy with property and a stake in the system - when I'm afraid of the police, there's a serious problem. Granted, I suspect the PPD are uniquely horrendous.

[Louis]

I'm an educated white guy with property and a stake in the system - when I'm afraid of the police, there's a serious problem.

[x] Like

I fit the same demographic group, have had my share of run-ins with the police, and thought the same thing myself.

[Mr. Pink]

The Daily News headline is kinda funny.

[mecse]

I commute past this location frequently. Super disturbing.

http://gothamist.com/2016/06/14/hood_guy_with_a_gun.php

has an interview with the cyclist in question.

[echappist]

Several years back I was riding when i watched an incident between a car and a scooter in front of me. The car was driving erratically and I held back because I was afraid. The auto eventually knocked the scooter over, stopped and a guy came out of the car - gun drawn. I called the police (and held back). The gun holder was loud and abusive while the scooter driver was terrified.

Police showed up...I expected gun guy to be arrested. I went over to an officer and told him how out of control gun guy was and how he hit him with his car. The officer just stared at me. Scooter guy was cuffed. I asked didn't he hear what I said? He told me to shut up and mind my own business; gun guy was a detective in homicide. I argued...he asked me if I wanted to be brought in on disorderly. I asked him his name, he told me to leave now and that I was a smart ass.

In my younger days I'd have stood my ground...but I left. I went home...wrote to the mayor, chief of police and contacted a friend in the media. I didn't have photos and was essentially dismissed.

I'm an educated white guy with property and a stake in the system - when I'm afraid of the police, there's a serious problem. Granted, I suspect the PPD are uniquely horrendous.

****, where in philly was this? seriously considering riding and driving with dash cam once i move to the city

somehow, i'm not surprised for a moment that PPD can be up to no good

[Sierra]

What a sad and discouraging story.

Guns are the false idols of our society.

[benb]

Definitely a lot more going on here than cyclist vs car.. the pack of riders seemed to be mixed race but it was definitely a white cop vs black cyclist situation going on. The rider had several strikes against him going into the situation given police biases.

Definitely huge stones to challenge someone with a gun. Maybe feeling the safety of cameras + lots of people around? In a rural area the cop might have just shot him since it would have been a cops word vs a dead african american who couldn't tell his side of the story with possibly no witnesses.

The "dead cyclist can't tell his side of the story" is always a present thought for me out on less crowded roads.

[josephr]

Addendum:

I've considered floating the idea of jerseys for our local small group with the following emblazoned large on the back:

We Support Our
Local Sheriff

(and also have just the grip and a portion of the barrel of a .45 auto mag screened into the area just ABOVE the left-most back pocket)

The next best thing to open carry?

:D

Mike in AR:beer:

not a bad idea! or maybe have the black/blue flag pasted across the back!

[Mzilliox]

i know i got an ice pick in my jersey pocket right now...

[Bob Ross]

Another thing that I find odd:
“We kept asking him, identify yourself. He just wouldn’t,” another friend of the biker’s said.

I mean, if that guy was pointing a gun at me, I don't think that I would be repeatedly asking him to identify himself. :confused:

Does screaming "Who the f**k do you think you are, motherf**ker?!?!" constitute asking someone to identify themselves?

[jmal]

Am I the only one that thinks both sides handled this poorly? The officer is clearly wrong for behaving the way he did, but a group of cyclist aggressively pursuing a guy/cop with a drawn gun is foolish too. And, the idea that some messengers are outraged because someone was in the bike lane is laughable. Those guys constantly break the rules and endanger people around them. I'm very much biased toward cyclists, but I'm not sure I think these guys represent cyclists in a positive way. I also would not want this cop anywhere near me.

[gdw]

The video and articles don't provide enough information to judge whether the police officer was justified in drawing his weapon.

[Dead Man]

The video and articles don't provide enough information to judge whether the police officer was justified in drawing his weapon.

This is true... If a bunch of angry cyclists mob up on you during a traffic altercation, you could very well be justified pulling a gun.

Just doesn't feel like that's what happened. Offduty waving the thing around like a gangster just doesn't strike me as "I was in fear for my life."

[velomonkey]

Here are the facts

Guy (who was an armed off-duty cop) puts car into bike lane
Guy claims bikers hit his mirror - mirror shows no sign of damage
Guy claims bikers drew an ice pic - no ice pic found
Guy waives gun around literally holding it sideways
Guy never showed his badge
Bike rider arrested and Guy let go

Those are the facts. Also another fact - the hall monitors of paceline come out and say the bike riders share some of the blame and acted irresponsible.

No one ever catches a break with some of you guys. Lots of witnesses and not a one is corroborating the cop.

It wasn't a joke - show me the internet BB on cops where users were saying "that cop acted poorly" or a conceal carry site where they said - "that dude acted poorly" - cause I CAN show you the bike site where users blame the bikers.

Funny enough - bikers versus people driving cars or, better yet, people driving cars while armed - we will always, always, always lose and they will win. There must be some self-loathing going on here.

[velomonkey]

And one other note: did the nearby school go on lockdown cause there was 3 angry black dudes on bikes delivering, get this, sushi? No, it went on lockdown because some AHole was waiving a gun around in public not identified as an officer of the law.

And who gets arrested?

Yea, the bikers acted irresponsibly. :crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:

[Mzilliox]

And one other note: did the nearby school go on lockdown cause there was 3 angry black dudes on bikes delivering, get this, sushi? No, it went on lockdown because some AHole was waiving a gun around in public not identified as an officer of the law.

And who gets arrested?

Yea, the bikers acted irresponsibly. :crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:

these double standards are odd.

the cyclists perhaps did not react in the safest way, but they looked like they were no strangers to gun violence, and other than not being nice, they didn't do anything wrong either. the gun did not scare them much, as im sure this guy wasn't the first. to me there is never, ever, ever any incident outside of home invasion requiring anyone to pull a gun, ever, period. that move is always a douchebag move, always. especially for an off duty cop, thats some serious bull. it shows your character immediately, it shows you are a bully.

[benb]

How frequent in NYC would it be to fold someone's mirror in to get by?

I have been blocked by cars pretty frequently, though it's a little different here in the suburbs.. here they just decide they'll pull to the right and put a tire against the curb to block you passing the traffic jam.

It has never occurred to me to fold someone's mirror in to get by, the times that would make a difference seem minimal.

[gdw]

I'm not claiming that the cop acted correctly but pointing out that the Gawker article and the attached video don't provide enough info to justify the opinions expressed by a number of the people who have posted in this thread. If you have additional articles or video that prove your "facts" post them.

[velomonkey]

I'm not claiming that the cop acted correctly but pointing out that the Gawker article and the attached video don't provide enough info to justify the opinions expressed by a number of the people who have posted in this thread. If you have additional articles or video that prove your "facts" post them.


Um anyone not in need of glasses can see the dude holding the gun sideways like he just watched New Jack City. Anyone can see his mirrors aren't damaged (well truth be told that's the TV station video). The cops admitted no ice pick was found. You can hear the guys saying "show us your badge" and the dude isn't showing a badge.

So you can put the word 'facts' in quotes - they are still, in fact, facts.

Here's a stupid fact - an armed society is not a polite society - and only an idiot would draw a weapon to win an argument.

[jmal]

And one other note: did the nearby school go on lockdown cause there was 3 angry black dudes on bikes delivering, get this, sushi? No, it went on lockdown because some AHole was waiving a gun around in public not identified as an officer of the law.

And who gets arrested?

Yea, the bikers acted irresponsibly. :crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:

The cyclist admitted to both whacking the guy's mirror and kicking his bumper. I do not consider this responsible. We have threads on the forum where everyone pretty much agrees that so much as giving the finger in a road altercation is a bad idea, and here the cyclist twice makes contact with the guy's car, likely quite aggressively based on the aggressive response to the gun. I don't think either party is correct here, but if you think mobbing an armed cop is wise, you are mistaken. That part is documented in the video. We would need to see more footage to determine just how far out of line the cop was.

[merlinmurph]

Something like this happened just a few weeks ago in Boston, except with a pedestrian.

In the city, at an intersection, pedestrian whacks mirror of car, driver is an off-duty cop, cop goes ballistic, pulls a gun, never identifies himself. There is a video starting sometime after the cop started roughing the pedestrian up. Got a ton of press. Apparently, the cop has a history of abuse.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2016/05/26/police-probe-off-duty-cops-confrontation-pedestrian

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Off-Duty-Boston-Police-Officer-Caught-on-Camera-Slamming-Man-to-Ground-380905311.html

[velomonkey]

The cyclist admitted to both whacking the guy's mirror and kicking his bumper. I do not consider this responsible. We have threads on the forum where everyone pretty much agrees that so much as giving the finger in a road altercation is a bad idea, and here the cyclist twice makes contact with the guy's car, likely quite aggressively based on the aggressive response to the gun. I don't think either party is correct here, but if you think mobbing an armed cop is wise, you are mistaken. That part is documented in the video. We would need to see more footage to determine just how far out of line the cop was.

Blah, Blah, Blah - I've kicked bumpers. Still not a requirement for drawing a gun. I've ridden with friends - still not a requirement for drawing a gun.

3 people isn't a mob and you clearly need a massive recalibration if you think it is. Given the finger might be a 'bad idea' - still perfectly within your rights and legal. This is an agent of the government, not on duty, drawing his weapon. Someone's life better be hanging by a thread or else holster your freaking weapon!!!! Nothing you or anyone can say is gonna change that.

The cop was out of line - no witness, not a single one, has said the bikers were at fault. But what do they know - you clearly know better.

The brief time I was a fed I never, ever carried my issued pistol off-duty. Ever. We had a colleague pull his arguing over a parking spot and then we had to sit through hours of training cause of that idiot.

[ultraman6970]

Ultra is with velomonkey, the problem is that IN NYC pretty much no matter if your own father is the judge in your own case, your dad will listen the cop.

The worse thing to me is that nobody seems to be willing to clean a PD like that. Well a fair judge could give the police man a really hard time, the mayor aswell but is not going to happen.

[Elefantino]

Must be some sort of anti-matter universe, compared to this one.
I only know one parallel universe.

http://www.fanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/spockulations2-400x288.jpg

[bikingshearer]

Also another fact - the hall monitors of paceline come out and say the bike riders share some of the blame and acted irresponsible.

Are you a troll, or are you really that obtuse? No one - let me repeat that - NO ONE - here as said anything remotely like the alleged "peace officer" was in the right. Nor have I heard anyone here suggest that it was right to arrest the cyclist and let the alleged "peace officer" go. Quite the opposite.

But it was irresponsible to behave the way the agro-cyclist did. Hitting someone's car does not justify drawing a gun. Period. End of discussion. And a cop absolutely knows better - if he or she doesn't, his or her badge and gun need to be taken away right now. But getting cut off in NYC traffic does not justify kicking the car. All it does is escalate the situation.

If you behave like a road-raged idiot, you dramatically increase your chances of having the other guy react like a road-raged idiot, and if the guy is armed and unhinged - well, you just lost. And what he does is a crime and deserves the strongest possible punishment. But you aggravated the situation beyond what it had to be. You may not be to blame in any legal or moral sense. But that doesn't do you much good when you are in the hospital or the morgue, now does it?

That is not the same as blaming the victim - it is saying you are a fool for acting in a way the significantly increases your chances of becoming the victim.

As for getting in the face of a guy with a gun? That is just stupid.

[Keith A]

bikingshearer +1

[djg21]

I'm curious: are off-duty officers required to identify themselves as police when they involve themselves?

My sense from watching the video is that the officer did identify himself as an off-duty police officer, and one of the cyclists then started demanding that the officer display his badge. From there, it just could have been that the officer's badge was in the car. This could have been handled far differently by the officer, but the cyclists clearly wanted to make a scene to record on their phones. The officer over reacted and the cyclists were pondscum is my take.

[donevwil]

deleted

[jmal]

And one other note: did the nearby school go on lockdown cause there was 3 angry black dudes on bikes delivering, get this, sushi? No, it went on lockdown because some AHole was waiving a gun around in public not identified as an officer of the law.

And who gets arrested?

Yea, the bikers acted irresponsibly. :crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:

Blah, Blah, Blah - I've kicked bumpers. Still not a requirement for drawing a gun. I've ridden with friends - still not a requirement for drawing a gun.

3 people isn't a mob and you clearly need a massive recalibration if you think it is. Given the finger might be a 'bad idea' - still perfectly within your rights and legal. This is an agent of the government, not on duty, drawing his weapon. Someone's life better be hanging by a thread or else holster your freaking weapon!!!! Nothing you or anyone can say is gonna change that.

The cop was out of line - no witness, not a single one, has said the bikers were at fault. But what do they know - you clearly know better.

The brief time I was a fed I never, ever carried my issued pistol off-duty. Ever. We had a colleague pull his arguing over a parking spot and then we had to sit through hours of training cause of that idiot.

I never once said the cop was right. I said the exact opposite. I also think the cyclists behaved like thugs. You are the one who clearly thinks you know the entirety of the situation. I'm open to more information before I place the bulk of the blame.

[Keith A]

And now a word from our sponsors :)

...this thread is starting to digress to attacks on individuals, and if this continues, then you know what will happen...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/32405/1029547-thread_locked.gif

[Dead Man]

And now a word from our sponsors :)

...this thread is starting to digress to attacks on individuals, and if this continues, then you know what will happen...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/32405/1029547-thread_locked.gif

Loctite should sponsor forums

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/img/products/big/t_lkr_red.png

[cadence90]

Loctite should sponsor forums


Or keyboards.

[mjf]

I'm genuinely curious with the some people in this thread.

If we remove the fact the the guy drawing the gun was a police officer, would any of your perspectives change?

Gun pulled on us today (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=186903)

The consensus in that thread feels so much more tame, whereas this one seems to hold so much vitriol against the cyclist involved. Even though the vast majority here seem to agree that the officer blew it way out of proportion, and was very much ready to kill the cyclist.

[redir]

Blue lives matter. And once again are above the law and bullying citizens which they are sworn to protect.

[velomonkey]

My sense from watching the video is that the officer did identify himself as an off-duty police officer, and one of the cyclists then started demanding that the officer display his badge. From there, it just could have been that the officer's badge was in the car. This could have been handled far differently by the officer, but the cyclists clearly wanted to make a scene to record on their phones. The officer over reacted and the cyclists were pondscum is my take.

Pond scum still isn't a reason to draw your firearm. It's just not.

Here is a simple rule - you want to carry your firearm off duty, fine, but you better have your badge on your person too and show that AND it better be a situation that requires the use of a firearm.

This wasn't a situation that required a firearm AND the dude never showed his badge, but let's arrest the pond scum who did what, exactly - aside from, you know, recording stuff.

On a side note: serious question - why lock the tread. No one is calling anyone names. At least not what I've read.

[djg21]

Pond scum still isn't a reason to draw your firearm. It's just not.

Here is a simple rule - you want to carry your firearm off duty, fine, but you better have your badge on your person too and show that AND it better be a situation that requires the use of a firearm.

This wasn't a situation that required a firearm AND the dude never showed his badge, but let's arrest the pond scum who did what, exactly - aside from, you know, recording stuff.

On a side note: serious question - why lock the tread. No one is calling anyone names. At least not what I've read.

First, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

That said, my understanding is that in NY, there is no law requiring an officer to display his/her badge merely because it is asked for. I am unaware of any NYPD policy directive, but that is not to say one does not exist.

I did find this however: http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/08/are-cops-required-to-carry-display-badges.html. Take it for what it's worth.

As to the main point of discussion, perhaps the officer did overreact. My point is that I wasn't there to witness the interaction between the messengers and off-duty officer and I presume you weren't either. Neither of us are in a position to judge. My characterization of the messengers as pondscum was based solely on the video recording. But I'd bet dollars to donuts (it is a police issue after all) that there is more to this story than any of us know from media reports that certainly are sensationalized.

I'm not ready to entirely discount the officer's contention that the messenger was armed with a ice-pick like device or weapon. It would not surprise me that a messenger in NYC might feel a need to carry such a weapon, or a tool to quickly release air from auto or bicycle tires for any number of reasons, some perhaps more unsavory than others.

I'd like to hear the officer's explanation and gauge his credibility. I'd also like to hear what impartial witnesses might have to say.

As to your "side question," sometimes it's more about tone than it is about whether people are called names. It's pretty easy to tell when someone is being snarky, unduly argumentative or patronizing even when they don't stoop to calling people names outright.

[velomonkey]

First, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

I'm not ready to entirely discount the officer's contention that the messenger was armed with a ice-pick like device or weapon.

I'd like to hear the officer's explanation and gauge his credibility. I'd also like to hear what impartial witnesses might have to say.

As to your "side question," sometimes it's more about tone than it is about whether people are called names. It's pretty easy to tell when someone is being snarky, unduly argumentative or patronizing even when they don't stoop to calling people names outright.

I read everything you stated - here is my issue - you granted the benefit of the doubt, for everything, to the cop. Conversely, you gave no benefit to the messengers and went so far as to call them pond scum.

That says a lot - not about the situation, but about how you are willing to cast aspersions at something you freely admit you don't know much about.

If that's snarky, unduly argumentative or patronizing without calling names then I think we all need to take a step back.

Oh, and an off duty cop who isn't a plain clothes cop or an undercover cop better use sound judgement when drawing his firearm and identify himself, but I digress. . . . .

[velomonkey]

Are you a troll, or are you really that obtuse? .

Oh, sorry, didn't see this one - last page and all - calling me a troll, but then you pulled it back by saying obtuse.

Let me get this straight - you literally just said " Hitting someone's car does not justify drawing a gun. Period. End of discussion." And then go for 2 paragraphs on how the bikers acted like idiots.

Wait, I thought the discussion was done? You literally just said "end of discussion." And I'm obtuse and a troll. Bro, do you even lift - cause what your saying doesn't even flow.

Either drawing your gun was justified or not. It's a black and white issue. This sounds a lot like the support letters for the rapist from Stanford. "Oh, she was drunk. She has responsibility in this, too" Um, don't rape. End of story.

Yea, I'm the troll . . . . . . . .

Also, have any of you thought for a second that these guys had balls to stand up probably because cops are pointing guns at them all the time. The sad and pathetic reality is that for African Americans in major cities getting a gun pulled on them by the cops happens all the time. Getting arrested with BS charges and then the charges dropped. Happens all the time. Fact.

Not so much in lily white America, but I guess I'm trolling.

[djg21]

I read everything you stated - here is my issue - you granted the benefit of the doubt, for everything, to the cop. Conversely, you gave no benefit to the messengers and went so far as to call them pond scum.

That says a lot - not about the situation, but about how you are willing to cast aspersions at something you freely admit you don't know much about.

If that's snarky, unduly argumentative or patronizing without calling names then I think we all need to take a step back.

Oh, and an off duty cop who isn't a plain clothes cop or an undercover cop better use sound judgement when drawing his firearm and identify himself, but I digress. . . . .

How I arrive at my opinions should be of no concern to you. My opinion is no more or less valuable than yours. You don't know my background, my experience with law enforcement, or what biases I may have. I likewise don't know what factors may be coloring your opinions. We can agree to disagree.

What we should be able to agree on is that the Paceline user agreement explicitly provides that: "respect toward fellow members is expected and required. You agree not to harass, flame, insult, taunt, or otherwise disrespect any member of this forum. Polite and intelligent disagreement is expected and inevitable in this type of forum. Personal attacks are not permitted at any time." We also can agree that the user agreement further incorporates a "golden rule": "Don't be a jerk." These rules certainly can be violated without name calling.

Back to the video, I certainly think the officer's conduct was unfortunate, and my sense is he will be subject to disciplinary action of some kind unless he can establish (in the proper administrative forum) that his conduct was justifiable. There very well may be no reasonable justification he can offer. On the other hand, the videos do not depict what transpired immediately before the weapon was drawn, and there is no telling what the messengers may have done to incite such a reaction. What can be gleaned from the video is that messengers made an effort to manipulate and egg on the officer while recording the incident in what we can infer was an effort to escalate the altercation and create evidence of misconduct on the officer's part. Based on this, I'm not inclined to fully credit the messenger's statements about what precipitated the incident.

We see this type of conduct all too often with the proliferation of GoPro cameras and camera-equipped cell phones. I'd like to know with certainty what really did happen, but at this point there really is no telling.

What this does underscore is that as cyclists, we shouldn't be punching car hoods or mirrors or engaging motorists in ways that can be perceived as threatening. The messengers here were lucky in some respects that they encountered an off-duty police officer and not a drug dealer, gang-banger, or some yahoo out to make a statement about his Second Amendment rights.

[Tony T]

And now a word from our sponsors :)
...this thread is starting to digress to attacks on individuals, and if this continues, then you know what will happen...


Shut it down!

[Fivethumbs]

Harumph! Harumph! (Hey that ---> guy didn't say Harumph).

[velomonkey]

What we should be able to agree on is that the Paceline user agreement explicitly provides that: "respect toward fellow members is expected and required. You agree not to harass, flame, insult, taunt, or otherwise disrespect any member of this forum. Polite and intelligent disagreement is expected and inevitable in this type of forum. Personal attacks are not permitted at any time." We also can agree that the user agreement further incorporates a "golden rule": "Don't be a jerk." These rules certainly can be violated without name calling.


Please stick to the discssion.

No, I don't what shaped your views, but they are your views and, as such, are clearly laden with bias and antipathy.

I'm not bringing my views into this. Someone kinda stepped out of bounds, someone else totally and utterly stepped way, way, way out of bounds and could have potentially ended a life or lives. That is a stone cold fact free of impartiality.

[djg21]

Please stick to the discssion.

No, I don't what shaped your views, but they are your views and, as such, are clearly laden with bias and antipathy.

I'm not bringing my views into this. Someone kinda stepped out of bounds, someone else totally and utterly stepped way, way, way out of bounds and could have potentially ended a life or lives. That is a stone cold fact free of impartiality.

This was never a discussion. You have proven yourself incapable of engaging in respectful and civil discourse, and I have better things to do than deal with your snide remarks and insults.

[velomonkey]

This was never a discussion. You have proven yourself incapable of engaging in respectful and civil discourse, and I have better things to do than deal with your snide remarks and insults.

Dang, bro, you are publicly saying some not very flattering things about me.

It's been good talking to you.

[gdw]

"Bias and antipathy"....the pot calling the kettle black.

[velomonkey]

"Bias and antipathy"....the pot calling the kettle black.

I believe, sir, you are talking to me. I believe, sir, you are calling me a hypocrite.

Sir, I don't bring my views into it - I do have a bias though, sir, and you have outed me. My bias is this - I don't want to see people getting shot an dying. I hate seeing that. There are other things I hate: but this is the tops, baby. Way, way, way below that is I don't want messengers to resort to kicking car bumpers when they feel they've been wronged - right below that is my hatred of tightie whities - but killing is way, way, way more hated by me.

I do say, sir, I hope you have a fine day.

[parris]

How many messengers were there total in the group vs the off duty cop? I couldn't keep straight who was actually involved and who was just a bystander. Also the cop wasn't holding the firearm sideways gansta style. The muzzle was pretty well depressed and it appeared by the angle on the video that he was keeping it in close to his body with his non weapon hand kept free so he could react in the event that things got more heated.

There's a set of standards that are taught called the use of force continuum that takes into account multiple factors where an officer raises or lowers his/her level of force. It's dependent on many factors.

If anyone's interested type in Use of Force Continuum and a number of images will come up that can do a better job of explaining than I'm able to right now.

I'm not making a judgement one way or another simply due to not having enough info to be able to draw a reasonable conclusion.

[bikingshearer]

Someone kinda stepped out of bounds, someone else totally and utterly stepped way, way, way out of bounds and could have potentially ended a life or lives.

Except for the word "kinda," I agree with this. But that isn't what I understood you to be saying before. Let's leave it at that.

[ajhapps]

http://copsinbikelanes.tumblr.com/

[Tony T]

This thread is going nowhere. How can we shut it down? Oh yeah: "Gun Control"! (that should do it ;))

[54ny77]

"Pew! Pew pew!"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B41fknm90yc/Sbqay-2PvGI/AAAAAAAAFLA/HwySXYhGRrc/s320/alberto+contador+dispara+un+tiro+pistolero.jpg

[Keith A]

I think this one is done and dusted.