OT: The World (and Country) We Live In

[Kirk007]

Given that over the years this place has proved more often than not to be one of the few virtual communities where one can have a reasonable discussion even among those who see the world differently, I turn to you.

Yesterday, like perhaps many of you, my outlook on our country, our citizens, humans in general was rather bleak. Not just Orlando, but the accumulated spewing of hate and anger -- emotions that cross all political boundaries to be sure, (although a few seem particularly bent on inflaming these reactions - just read comments on Fox website to any political story or the comments on Huffington Post by Sanders supporters ready to burn the country down). Truly by mid-afternoon I was contemplating what more civilized country to move to, and doing so with no small measure of seriousness -- I am close to giving up on this place.

For thirty years I have pushed a rock uphill (trying to save some semblance of a healthy planet) only to have it roll back down consistently. Approaching 60 I wonder how to keep pushing and why; riding my bike, diving, enjoying life - handing Sisyphus' baton off to someone younger.... what once seemed an irresponsible choice now looks more and more reasonable. Indeed it seems almost Tao like to let go of any illusion to being able to have any impact on the big picture and to rather focus on small moments of kindness.

Unmotivated to cook we went to a small Mexican restaurant- legal? illegal? I dunno but the food is great, the atmosphere warming, the music uplifting. Afterwards we went to one of our urban parks and walking past the play area observing kids being kids - white, black, brown they didn't seem to distinguish between us and them. When we got home dusk had settled in and soon the evening air was filled with the laughter of kids and adults alike as they left the mosque that we live next too. The fasting of Ramadan done for the day, the eating soon to begin. There are good people in this place, trying to get on with life, without being paralyzed with fear and loathing. This morning I read Matt Tuck's post about helping out a stranger. There are good people in this place too.

Yet I wonder, has the aspiration to be the Shining City on the Hill slipped away or was it always nothing more than a naive and self absorbed mindset that America was and could become even more "exceptional'? Have we always been a country full of fear, hate and loathing of "others" and we are only now, with the invasive presence of social media, where one can spew their true inner feelings anonymously, feeling the extent of it?

What seems clear to me is that we are in a rapidly changing world and the pace of those changes is too fast for too many. Our world views and sense of country and security are challenged by forces that are hard to fathom and out of our control, the fight or flight response of our limbic systems seems to rule the day. And if you consider our increasing world population, the impact that climate change is already having on displacing poor populations and contributing to migration, the rise in totalitarian sects whether organized around religion or something else, then the impulse to build walls, stock arms, identify with a tribe and gather resources (and isn't this what the wealth inequality phenomena is all about) is understandable. But these reactions ignore the cancer they cause within and without and the disease is no longer asymptomatic. It seems to be spreading out of control and I don't see it ending well.

Some have posted that you are still positive about America. I'd love to hear why you are still optimistic as for me it is hard to see anything but a tunnel closing in, no light at the end.

[Matthew]

I have similar feelings as you. The world seems to be going to **** in a hurry. There seems to be so much anger now. You can't have even a positive story now a days without someone finding something negative about it. Comments online? Forget about it. This part of the internet I hate. Every story turns out to be negative somehow. I know there are good people out there. I am friends, and fortunately neighbors to some. But man, the world seems so angry now. I never had children, and to be honest I am grateful I didn't. The thought of a little one growing up in this mess is heartbreaking. At the same time I am very happy to be alive. I have a great relationship with my wife. I love riding my bike. I have a good, steady job that allows me to be comfortable. I try to stay positive but some times it is hard to do. I keep hoping things will turn around, but with all of the hate that exists I am not sure it will.

[rustychisel]

Hi there,

I guess the simple answer is 'When you give up you lose all', but that is simplistic and I don't know all the things that bedevil you and your country.

I was going to write a PM to Keith explaining why I started the thread on Orlando, but might as well put my thoughts here as some minor kind of attempt to say you have support, succour, and understanding, at least on this forum.

Some sixteen hours after the events in Orlando there was no mention of it on the Paceline. I thought 'Whoah, that's odd'. When events happen I'm often first notified through this forum and I know the speed of transmission - usually. So why not this horrific event?

Sociologically, I found that fascinating; the forum was self-censoring and no-one was willing to 'go there'. 'Go where?' is a fair question... a thread about gays, or guns, and what that might entail.

When, many years ago, Australia was forced to confront the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre, we were a small nation of 22 million, and it's fair to say as a nation we were in shock. That is why we supported our Prime Minister when he said 'never again'.

I don't know what the answer is, I have opinions and that is all. But I am certain that to not mention what happened in Orlando is to commit a great folly.

Joel - I mourn for your community.
Kirk - my apologies for loading onto your thread
Everyone - peace, and my greatest regard,

Alex

[bironi]

Hi there,

I guess the simple answer is 'When you give up you lose all', but that is simplistic and I don't know all the things that bedevil you and your country.

I was going to write a PM to Keith explaining why I started the thread on Orlando, but might as well put my thoughts here as some minor kind of attempt to say you have support, succour, and understanding, at least on this forum.

Some sixteen hours after the events in Orlando there was no mention of it on the Paceline. I thought 'Whoah, that's odd'. When events happen I'm often first notified through this forum and I know the speed of transmission - usually. So why not this horrific event?

Sociologically, I found that fascinating; the forum was self-censoring and no-one was willing to 'go there'. 'Go where?' is a fair question... a thread about gays, or guns, and what that might entail.

When, many years ago, Australia was forced to confront the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre, we were a small nation of 22 million, and it's fair to say as a nation we were in shock. That is why we supported our Prime Minister when he said 'never again'.

I don't know what the answer is, I have opinions and that is all. But I am certain that to not mention what happened in Orlando is to commit a great folly.

Joel - I mourn for your community.
Kirk - my apologies for loading onto your thread
Everyone - peace, and my greatest regard,

Alex

Thanks for the post. I did not read the locked thread, but I was not surprised to see the lock. I do wish this country could reach the same tipping point that Australia did. I saw an article today with graphics showing which representatives received NRA campaign donations state by state. In my perusal I only saw two Democrats nationwide. The Republicans are unanimously in the pocket of the NRA. That is not promising for any meaningful reform.
Byron

[William]

“Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


This is scary, humbling, and true. The world has had dark as well as bright ages in the run that men and women have had on this planet. There is a lot of negativity today, the filter that most people have had in the past has been stripped away, but only with the anonymity that social media can provide. Does that mean it was never here? I don't think so, I just think that when interaction was only closer to home, people tended to behave better.

Like any tool, it can be used for good or bad. Computers and social media have created the ability to interact with far off friends and family, able to learn things you never had access to before, and meet people you most likely wouldn't have in the past. But it is also a powerful tool to spread negativity, lies, and influence weak minded people to do things they probably never would have. Instead of violent movements influencing people to do atrocities in the name of whatever and sending them forth from base, now they can try to influence people in every corner of the globe who buy into it and attempt to get action. Sure, this is scary, but evil always tries to turn good into bad.

One can choose to close in, give up, and stop trying to improve things for the greater good, or you can choose to keep trying to do right, keep trying to improve your small corner of the world with kindness and good deeds. Be kind, but be vigilant, and do your best to brighten the people and places around you. Once you give in, give up hope, and stop trying, the people who push hated, intolerance, and terror have won.







William

[verticaldoug]

Ignorance was bliss. There is more information now and maybe the world feels smaller, but fundamentally, not a lot has change.

Pick any period of human history, and if you look closely, you will see all the sins. The same sins with us now. (actually, we are still relatively well behaved compared to past periods.)

There is an aspect of technology which allows the few to really treat the many inhumanely. A person controlling a algorithm can make a change without any consideration on how it will affect the people downstream in the system. If the people downstream no longer feel in control, no longer can make a living wage, they will get pissed off..... This is some of what you see happening.

[Dead Man]

We're currently living in the freest, safest, healthiest, fattest, fairest time in the history of our species

Stop letting 'em control how you brain.

[William]

Ignorance was bliss. There is more information now and maybe the world feels smaller, but fundamentally, not a lot has change.

Pick any period of human history, and if you look closely, you will see all the sins. The same sins with us now. (actually, we are still relatively well behaved compared to past periods.)



I agree, Social Media is like a magnifying glass, you're looking at what (for there most part) has always been there...it just looks bigger.





William

[FlashUNC]

Yet I wonder, has the aspiration to be the Shining City on the Hill slipped away or was it always nothing more than a naive and self absorbed mindset that America was and could become even more "exceptional'? Have we always been a country full of fear, hate and loathing of "others" and we are only now, with the invasive presence of social media, where one can spew their true inner feelings anonymously, feeling the extent of it?

What seems clear to me is that we are in a rapidly changing world and the pace of those changes is too fast for too many. Our world views and sense of country and security are challenged by forces that are hard to fathom and out of our control, the fight or flight response of our limbic systems seems to rule the day. And if you consider our increasing world population, the impact that climate change is already having on displacing poor populations and contributing to migration, the rise in totalitarian sects whether organized around religion or something else, then the impulse to build walls, stock arms, identify with a tribe and gather resources (and isn't this what the wealth inequality phenomena is all about) is understandable. But these reactions ignore the cancer they cause within and without and the disease is no longer asymptomatic. It seems to be spreading out of control and I don't see it ending well.

Some have posted that you are still positive about America. I'd love to hear why you are still optimistic as for me it is hard to see anything but a tunnel closing in, no light at the end.

Empires never end well.

The Shining City on a Hill bit was always more hyperbole than fact. The history of this nation is littered with examples of that cognitive dissonance. We've never been perfect, even from Day One. Are we the worst? No, not by a long shot, but the automatic assumption that somehow we are imbued with divine rightness or justness over "The Other" whoever that may be -- the Spanish in 1898, the Soviets Post-War, the quagmire du jour of the last 40-ish years... -- has led to a number of horrid policy decisions both domestic and foreign for a couple decades now, from both parties.

Our time as the lone global superpower will, too, come to an end. Only question will be whether there'll be a world left after we're done.

America is at its best when it is inclusive, welcoming and enabling those to chase their dreams and embracing change. We've never worn insularity on the global stage particularly well.

We're closer to the end of the American epoch than the beginning on the global stage, but it doesn't mean we need to go out cowering in fear, building walls and fearing others of all types unnecessarily.

[William]

I saw this earlier and this thread made me think about it...Power and Emotion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POaaw_x7gvQ

What would you do if I sang out of tune
Would you stand up and walk out on me?
Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song
And I'll try not to sing out of key
Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends
Mm, I get high with a little help from my friends
Mm, gonna try with a little help from my friends

What do I do when my love is away
(Does it worry you to be alone?)
How do I feel by the end of the day
(Are you sad because you're on your own?)
No, I get by with a little help from my friends
Mm, I get high with a little help from my friends
Mm, gonna try with a little help from my friends

Do you need anybody
I need somebody to love
Could it be anybody
I want somebody to love

Would you believe in a love at first sight
Yes, I'm certain that it happens all the time
What do you see when you turn out the light
I can't tell you but I know it's mine
Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends
Mm, I get high with a little help from my friends
Mm, gonna try with a little help from my friends

Do you need anybody

Could it be anybody
I want somebody to love

Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends
with a little help from my friends







William

[Schmed]

You pictures are motivation enough to not give up.

I avoid negative people, and engage in political discussions only with people that are reasonable. I focus on the positives in life, and try to be as happy as possible. I feel that I owe that to myself and friends and family.

But... I totally know what you mean. Avoiding the news helps. But... that's avoidance.

Everything now can be split politically - you are either red or blue. I hate that. It's not a sporting event. We shouldn't be trying to beat the other side. It's tearing us apart. My best friend and I don't talk much due to being polar opposites, politically. So... he and I try to avoid politics when we talk. That's too bad.

So.... be happy. Smile. Laugh. Treat people nice. It's all you can do!

[SoCalSteve]

Hi there,

I guess the simple answer is 'When you give up you lose all', but that is simplistic and I don't know all the things that bedevil you and your country.

I was going to write a PM to Keith explaining why I started the thread on Orlando, but might as well put my thoughts here as some minor kind of attempt to say you have support, succour, and understanding, at least on this forum.

Some sixteen hours after the events in Orlando there was no mention of it on the Paceline. I thought 'Whoah, that's odd'. When events happen I'm often first notified through this forum and I know the speed of transmission - usually. So why not this horrific event?

Sociologically, I found that fascinating; the forum was self-censoring and no-one was willing to 'go there'. 'Go where?' is a fair question... a thread about gays, or guns, and what that might entail.

When, many years ago, Australia was forced to confront the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre, we were a small nation of 22 million, and it's fair to say as a nation we were in shock. That is why we supported our Prime Minister when he said 'never again'.

I don't know what the answer is, I have opinions and that is all. But I am certain that to not mention what happened in Orlando is to commit a great folly.

Joel - I mourn for your community.
Kirk - my apologies for loading onto your thread
Everyone - peace, and my greatest regard,

Alex

I too felt the same way and there were probably 10 times when I started a thread about the tragedy and then clicked off. I wanted to share, to mourn, to feel a sense of togetherness in this tragedy...but, the sad part of why I didn't was knowing it would divolve quickly and get locked. So I didn't.

We do live in a strange time. In a very divided country. Too divided for us as a nation to make progress. And this is sad and scary as well.

I think the only advice I could give the OP is to enjoy your own world. Smile when you hear children playing, enjoy fine meals, be with your friends and loved ones and take joy in sharing with them...and, lastly...ride your bike. Ride it for your health, for your enjoyment, for whatever hundreds of reasons why we ride our bikes.

I rode my bike yesterday. With great sadness. With much thought about the world. And yes, when I finished my ride, I was still sad, still scared of things to come. But, I also smiled because I went out and did what I loved to do. For my health, for the enjoyment, for all the other hundred reasons I ride.

Please, everyone...go ride your bikes.

[Matthew]

My wife and I had a conversation like this the night after the Orlando tragedy. She said "You know human beings have been doing this since the beginning of time right?" It made me think about all of the wars, tragedies, and other historical atrocities in the past that have occurred. And she was right, there has been terrible things happening all over the planet since the start of man. And yet virtually all of my life I felt I have had it pretty good. I think, as has been mentioned, things are now instant and in your face now with modern technology. It is almost impossible to ignore sometimes. I will do my best to stay positive and maybe look for more good in my everyday life.

[AngryScientist]

Some have posted that you are still positive about America. I'd love to hear why you are still optimistic as for me it is hard to see anything but a tunnel closing in, no light at the end.

I'm still fantastically positive about America.

i remember a quote that goes something like "people often find what they are looking for...", which speaks to me that if you're looking for negativity, and a reason to get down on the world, the country, your town or your friends, you'll find that reason. that's not what i'm looking for.

i've been travelling a lot for work lately, seeing some obscure corners of our great country. i've been meeting the nicest people you can ask for. hospitable, good, neighborly people. from city to country, the good people are out there, and yes, i do believe they vastly outnumber the bad.

i never have to look far to find the goodness in people, and IMO, the human spirit has never been more alive, especially if you're looking for it.

the other day, i'm on the train, coming home from work. crowded train, rush hour NYC. group of teenage boys on the train - loud, obnoxious, just being teenaged boys really. they looked like they could cause some trouble. older gent walks on the train - cane in hand, clearly wiped out from the rigors of his day. his face and weathered clothes tell the tale that he's a working man. ...well dont you know it, one of those teenage boys FIRES out of his seat and offers it to the older gent, and helps him into his seat. the way he helped him you could see compassion in his eyes, even from across the train. the old man smiled.

simple stuff, but it made me smile too.

there are so many stories that pop into my head right now of acts of kindness, love and compassion. they well outnumber the violence and crap the world has to offer.

from where i sit, America is OK. the people make the country, and i feel lucky to be surrounded by [mostly] good people.

[CampyorBust]

This thread is worthy of a better response than this but for now... some Bjork.

https://youtu.be/KDbPYoaAiyc
https://youtu.be/AjI2J2SQ528

Not sure if this is the place for it or the Iceland thread, oh well I will park it here for now.

My wonderful Mexican hole in the wall restaurant has turned into a Chotchkie's flare and all! Still I have faith and learned to make my own fish tacos and they are even better!

[Mzilliox]

This thread is worthy of a better response than this but for now... some Bjork.

https://youtu.be/KDbPYoaAiyc
https://youtu.be/AjI2J2SQ528



Every thread needs Bjork.
I feel the same as many here. While my life is actually pretty cool and comfy and controlled and that will most likely not change, I think the world of technology allows us to see how bad it can be for others, and some days that sad feeling trumps the good stuff. because i can control my good stuff, but I can't do much to control the bad, or can i??

somebody else mentioned similar, but what makes me think the most is this: are we fundamentally similar? or truly so different as we are behaving? the polarity scares me. i was having a discussion and thought i was agreeing with someone when all of the sudden they called me an idiot. i knew we were agreeing for different reasons, but agreeing we were. even agreeing for different reasons was enough for this woman to call me an idiot. its that polarity im seeing and feeling right now that i haven't noticed before...

you guys are alright:beer:

[cinema]

Whenever I leave the internet and news media for a while the world doesn't seem as bad of a place.

Also, doesn't Australia maintain a monoculture by literally shipping any and all immigrants who enter illegally or who seek asylum off to a deserted island

[txcid05]

We are most definitely faced with challenging times. I'm confident that our current challenges are no more challenging than those that our forefathers faced. Being an ex-Army officer, there is still plenty to fight for. The guys and ladies I served with everyday showed me just how great the American spirit is. I'm disappointed with many things in our country at the moment...but when that flag flies before a race, the national anthem plays, I still get teary eyed. I love this country, and I hope most Americans feel the same way.

[dustyrider]

Life has taught me in the most final of ways that this moment is the best moment. Our perception of reality is based on our ever changing perspective.
Based on your photos the light at the end of your tunnel is only dark because the tunnel is so bright!

Music has always been where I grow and hide.
The song below helps align my perspective.

I hope you're able to enjoy the moment.

Youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4XskfT6vNY).

Missed the Boat

While we're on the subject
Could we change the subject now?
I was knocking on your ear's door but you were always out
Looking towards the future
We were begging for the past
Well we knew we had the good things
But those never seemed to last
Oh please just last

Everyone's unhappy
Everyone's ashamed
Well we all just got caught looking
At somebody else's page
Well nothing ever went
Quite exactly as we planned
Our ideas held no water
But we used them like a dam

Oh, and we carried it all so well
As if we got a new position
Oh, and I laugh all the way to hell
Saying yes, this is a fine promotion
Oh, and I laugh all the way to hell

Of course everyone goes crazy
Over such and such and such
We made ourselves a pillar
We just used it as a crutch
We were certainly uncertain
At least I'm pretty sure I am
Well we didn't need the water
But we just built that good God dam

Oh, and I know this of myself
I assume as much for other people
Oh, and I know this of myself
We've listened more to life's end gong
Than the sound of life's sweet bliss

Was it ever worth it?
Was there all that much to gain?
Well we knew we missed the boat
And we'd already missed the plane
We didn't read the invite
We just dance at our wake
All our favorites were playing
So we could shake, shake, shake, shake, shake

Tiny curtains open and we heard the tiny clap of little hands
A tiny man would tell a little joke and get a tiny laugh from all the folks
Sitting drifting around in bubbles and thinking it was us that carried them
When we finally got it figured out that we had truly missed the boat

Oh, and we carried it all so well
As if we got a new position
Oh, and we owned all the tools ourselves
But not the skills to make a shelf with
Oh, what useless tools ourselves

[Hilltopperny]

I believe that there is good in this country and bad as well. The majority of folks on this forum live well. I live in a poor mill town surrounded by other poor mill towns. I see rising taxes and expenses with no solutions on how to solve them. I see a weak and dying middle class in a place that used to have wealth and prosperity. It's hard not to get wrapped up in all of it. I ride my bikes in order to escape from the constant fear mongering of the media and news trying to tell me how I should think. I am tired of constant advertising of products that I don't want nor need. I got rid of cable years ago and am very close to removing my social media account. I'm tired of a two party system that is meant to divide and conquer. We need to be able to see through the veil.

I really enjoy this forum and its insight on many things. I know there is good in this world, but I am also aware that there are predatory forces who conspire to do evil as well. It has always been this way and it seems to me it will remain so. I try to find joy in friends and family and donating my time to local causes that I feel make a difference. Unfortunately things keep getting worse in my area of upstate NY. Policies like NAFTA and GAT have destroyed our industrial nation and replaced it with an unsustainable service based economy based on credit. Credit=debt=servitude.

I have had old friends turn to drugs and am attending a wake for one who just overdosed tomorrow night. This will be the second in the past two years. There are too many desperate people who have lost hope in my neck of the woods.

I believe that people are fed up with the Orwellian government that has became extremely invasive in our lives. The rampant political corruption by both major parties and the use of race, religion and politics to divide have gotten out of control. Truth has become stranger than fiction.

All this being said love one another, be well and ride your bikes! We need to enjoy the little things in life while we are here. Some folks are not afforded the opportunity to do so...

[nesteel]

I believe that there is good in this country and bad as well. The majority of folks on this forum live well. I live in a poor mill town surrounded by other poor mill towns. I see rising taxes and expenses with no solutions on how to solve them. I see a weak and dying middle class in a place that used to have wealth and prosperity. It's hard not to get wrapped up in all of it. I ride my bikes in order to escape from the constant fear mongering of the media and news trying to tell me how I should think. I am tired of constant advertising of products that I don't want nor need. I got rid of cable years ago and am very close to removing my social media account. I'm tired of a two party system that is meant to divide and conquer. We need to be able to see through the veil.

I really enjoy this forum and its insight on many things. I know there is good in this world, but I am also aware that there are predatory forces who conspire to do evil as well. It has always been this way and it seems to me it will remain so. I try to find joy in friends and family and donating my time to local causes that I feel make a difference. Unfortunately things keep getting worse in my area of upstate NY. Policies like NAFTA and GAT have destroyed our industrial nation and replaced it with an unsustainable service based economy based on credit. Credit=debt=servitude.

I have had old friends turn to drugs and am attending a wake for one who just overdosed tomorrow night. This will be the second in the past two years. There are too many desperate people who have lost hope in my neck of the woods.

I believe that people are fed up with the Orwellian government that has became extremely invasive in our lives. The rampant political corruption by both major parties and the use of race, religion and politics to divide have gotten out of control. Truth has become stranger than fiction.

All this being said love one another, be well and ride your bikes! We need to enjoy the little things in life while we are here. Some folks are not afforded the opportunity to do so...

Damn. Spot on sir.

[Elefantino]

Much of what has been said thus far is spot-on.

I, too, worry about America (in particular, and humanity in general). It seems that this century has seen the improvements in communication bring us closer together and at the same time tear us even farther apart. We yearn for the interpersonal - and political - cordiality of a bygone era and yet it does not, and we do not, change; in fact, it and we are worse.

I am torn between feeling helpless about the decline in our national, moral values and feeling hopeful that when I am out in the world, not paying attention to the latest in mass communication, I can try to make the days of everyone I come in contact with a bit brighter. I hope the latter feeling continues to outweigh the former.

There is a scene in the movie "Patton" where the general is looking over a battlefield where Carthaginians were slaughtered by three Roman legions. He concludes his reminiscence by saying, "God, how I hate the 20th Century."

At times I feel that way about the 21st. I hope it's only fleeting.

[verticaldoug]

Much of what has been said thus far is spot-on.


There is a scene in the movie "Patton" where the general is looking over a battlefield where Carthaginians were slaughtered by three Roman legions. He concludes his reminiscence by saying, "God, how I hate the 20th Century."

At times I feel that way about the 21st. I hope it's only fleeting.

Except if you lived in Rome, you were probably dead by 40, maybe died as an infant and potentially lived life as a slave.

Patton just saw himself as always being a general.

I'll tell you a secret-
Life has always been better as a rich man of power regardless of the historic period. Just be sure to hang on to your power and wealth.

(This is what the rich are thinking now. )

[rustychisel]

I'll tell you a secret-
Life has always been better as a rich man of power regardless of the historic period. Just be sure to hang on to your power and wealth.

(This is what the rich are thinking now. )

too simplistic. I have heard tell of a very rich man who died of heart attack at 43. I believe he'd have swapped his millions for another 30 years in a heartbeat.

Anyway, thinking in the bigger picture; we are currently living through the sixth mass extinction event. It is self inflicted, we will not live to see it play out, and it is inexorable.

[oldpotatoe]

I turn inward, recognize the value of my local family. Lotsa hate out there, kinda like every election season.

I don't watch news, don't read anything but a wee local paper..I see my grandkids and my sons/daughter-in-law..I ride my bike, mostly alone, I build wheels, work a few bikes in my garage shop. I protect me and mine. I stay in and around the republic cuz it fits into my view of things.

[akelman]

As people age, they become less and less optimistic about the future. The Paceline forum has an aging demographic, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts, and thus wants the future to get off its lawn.

As for Orlando specifically, I'm torn between feeling horrified that mass shootings now seem run-of-the-mill and feeling like not feeling terrified about terrorism is probably a step in the right direction.

Finally, speaking of terrorism, I think it's telling that a man being labeled a radical Islamist -- even by former Secretary of State Clinton -- apparently doesn't know the difference between Shias and Sunnis. That kind of ignorance seems just about as American as apple pie and gun violence.

[verticaldoug]

Finally, speaking of terrorism, I think it's telling that a man being labeled a radical Islamist -- even by former Secretary of State Clinton -- apparently doesn't know the difference between Shias and Sunnis. That kind of ignorance seems just about as American as apple pie and gun violence.

When ISIS first rose to prominence, there were many postings on Facebook in Lebanon ridiculing the piety of ISIS fighters. This is neither new nor uniquely american. (I remember a parody video of a Christian Lebanese couple stopped by ISIS, the ISIS fighter demanded the man prove he was a muslim by quoting the Koran, the man quoted the old testament, and the fighter said okay you can go.) My friends thought the video was hilarious.

If you are LGBT, it doesn't really matter if they are Taliban, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, because it all probably ends pretty bad for you. Although in Iran, the state will pay for your sex change operation so they don't execute you.

Sure, if you are in the middleeast and want peace, it will matter. But outside of that, there are bigger enemies. Iran supplied Bosniaks weapons during the Bosnian conflict even though they are mostly sunni.

[Ray]

When I was in college about 35-40 years ago, we were studying the early signs of what appeared to be a looming environmental disaster. Between over-population, the increase in non-sustainable farming practices, the increase in non-point source air pollution (even as we were improving in terms of the smokestacks that had been a problem previously), etc, etc, etc, it looked really bleak THEN. And I might add this was before a widespread understanding of climate change.

Like Kirk, I got into a profession that I believed would have some impact on moving us in a positive direction and spent about 30 years in it, doing some small amount of good but seeing that good overwhelmed by larger trends that still seemed beyond control. There are a LOT of global problems that can be broken down and analyzed but I think the fundamental problem was, is, and will be a population that's already well beyond the sustainable carrying capacity of this planet. That stresses everything, from water supply to food supply to energy to standards of living. And the population keeps growing and eventually things just gotta give. And I think what we're seeing globally is that it's starting to come apart. Environmentally and, to some extent, socially. But we've been killing each other for as long as the species has existed, so that's not really different.

In the West I think our biggest problem is a generation (and I'm fully part of it) who grew up on the spoils of living in the country that essentially won WWII (along with the Russians, but without the brutal toll they suffered in that war). Baby boomers in the west, and particularly the US, have gotten used to a standard of living that nobody anywhere has ever had before. We did it by consuming overwhelmingly more of the world's resources than our relatively puny population warranted, but to the victor goes the spoils. We won, and we got spoiled. And as we helped lift many elsewhere in the world out of poverty, and as we led a technological revolution, the world, as Thomas Friedman observed, flattened. Other places caught up, or at least are catching up. And our labor force stopped being indispensable. A global economy is a reality, regardless of how we choose to interact with it. And that meant that our labor markets, our "middle class" got priced out. Between technology eliminating many jobs and outsourcing chasing others to less expensive labor pools, wages here, except for those at the top, have stagnated. It seems pretty inevitable. OTOH, the price of goods and services has gone down commensurately, so our stagnating incomes still buy a lot. But for the first time in recent memory, we probably ARE facing a situation where the next generation will have a lower standard of living than ours. Not because they're doing anything wrong, but because we've had a standard of living that the world has never seen before.

Bottom line, I've never been optimistic and nothing has made me more so. The only thing that gives me any hope is that people have been anticipating the end of the world for as long as there have been people and, so far, they've all been wrong. So I have to be humble enough to figure that I might just be wrong too. ;)

And in the meantime, the small acts of kindness, the friendships I have (even with neighbors who have Trump bumper stickers on their cars!) and the wonderful family I have and the love I feel for them, make life unbelievably good. My life couldn't be better - my wife and I are retired, we have more time than money, but then time is worth a whole lot more than money as long as you have enough money to get by, and we have more than that. So I watch the planet go to hell, I watch as we get closer and closer to electing a frightening demagogue and potential dictator as president (it may not happen this year, but it seems inevitable it will in the not too distant future as our economy continues to level with the rest of the world), but I recognize I may be wrong about all of it. And in the meantime, my life has been and is great. I fear for my kids - they're doing really well, but I fear for the world they're inheriting, but I remind myself my old man had the same fears for me and I've done alright.

As REM said, it's the end of the world as I know it, and I feel fine. I worry, for sure, but I feel fine. And if it all ends tomorrow, if the world goes up in a ball of flames, if a meteor hits us and wipes us out, or if some horrible disease borne of overpopulation wipes out huge numbers of us, I still wouldn't trade it for anything.

-Ray

[Sierra]

I'm new on this forum and I've been reading the comments expressed in this thread, in particular. I must say that I'm very impressed with the level of discourse and have enjoyed reading all of the sober, thoughtful commentary. It is a nice contrast to what I have found on so many other fora and, I find myself doing more reading and listening than making idle commentary myself; and that is a good thing. :beer:

[Mikej]

The U.S.A. is definitely changing.

[fuzzalow]

An all encompassing, boundless and unstructured topic for discussion, for sure. I'm not even sure how to approach the problem or the discussion, other than to affirm a sense of optimism in the face of many of the challenges as a nation and a sense of foreboding for the inevitable tumult ensued to lands of oppression.

The United States and the Eurozone will work through their situations and respective evolutions. The remaining two lynchpins in the global crucible, China and Saudi Arabia will each attempt to solve their internal divisions to varying degrees of success, with China being the more successful of the two in moving forwards.

As an American, I am guardedly optimistic. I think the citizenry has not been spoken to with hard truths and candor about the challenges we face as a nation. As such, the average citizen is still looking for simple answers that promise immediate results but will turn out to be yet again promises made and broken. This happening has yet to work its way through so in the short term it will get worse before it gets better. But we will persevere and find a way forwards. There is much work to be done. Everybody will have a part if they want to be part of the solution.

But there will also be the disillusioned that, frankly, do not see how little they bring to the table and will seek redress in domestic terrorism or radicalization. For a very small minority of Americans, this is the solution to not getting what they are incapable of earning themselves but somehow feel deserving of more. Nothing noble involved. Nothing close to being a just cause. Simple pure misguided, misplaced self interest puffed up as a cause worthy to god. Possessing not the courage to build one's own life but the self-flattery in bravery to hate and kill other civilians - the ultimate sucker punch. Disgusting.

[redir]

Wow I wish I could get good looking/tasting Mexican food like that in the OP where I live but alas it's shoddy Tex Mex all the way.

Well...


It's kind of crazy but. I grew up and have family in Newtown. My wife is from Littleton and I live in Blacksburg.

Those names sound familiar?

Yes I have thought about it too. Costa Rica has been on my radar for a long time now and looks better every day.

The best thing you can do is just not watch the news and close your Facebook tab. Science has shown us that you will almost never be able to sway someone once they are stead fast in thier opinions and world view. In fact it shows the contrary, the more you try to sway someone's opinion even in the presence of facts that show otherwise they actually become more steadfast in their narrow world views.

IOW it's jsut not owrth it.

[David Kirk]

Greg - I feel your pain and frustration. I really do. I wish I had even the hint of an answer for you....and for me. I don't.

That said - your post brings me to a question - how connected should we be? How connected do we need to be to be a responsible citizen? I'll say up front I have no effing idea.

My mother-in-law is so disconnected that it's hard to comprehend. She very well could have trouble picking a presidential candidate out of a line up. She only allows certain happy and bright messages to make it through her filter and if it doesn't make her feel good she rushes to turn it off. No TV or radio news, no TV shows, only feel-good movies that warm her heart. I look at this and think that's just not enough. How can one form real opinions and vote responsibly based on what Woody Allen thought 20 years ago?

On the other hand I know a guy who watches every minute of coverage of every hot button topic and while he's very knowledgeable and informed he's also miserable. All that negative info takes it's toll and lessens his ability to believe in human kind. He's informed like few others but is he better for it? I don't know.

Me? - I fall somewhere in the middle. I feel it's my responsibility to be informed but during times like the past few days I want to shirk that responsibility and just ride my bike until I can't turn the pedals over one one time and then fall into bed. I just don't know.

In the mean time I try to treat others the way I'd like to be treated. I try to smile at everyone, even those who look down at me. I try to be helpful to others. I try to use my work life to make beautiful things that will bring joy to their owners. Is this enough? Some days yes, many days no. But it's all I got and I struggle with the balance every day.

Greg - I wish I could join you for a beer and some of that wonderful food. That would be one of those things that makes life a true blessing.

dave

[Anarchist]

Greg - I feel your pain and frustration. I really do. I wish I had even the hint of an answer for you....and for me. I don't.

That said - your post brings me to a question - how connected should we be? How connected do we need to be to be a responsible citizen? I'll say up front I have no effing idea.

My mother-in-law is so disconnected that it's hard to comprehend. She very well could have trouble picking a presidential candidate out of a line up. She only allows certain happy and bright messages to make it through her filter and if it doesn't make her feel good she rushes to turn it off. No TV or radio news, no TV shows, only feel-good movies that warm her heart. I look at this and think that's just not enough. How can one form real opinions and vote responsibly based on what Woody Allen thought 20 years ago?

On the other hand I know a guy who watches every minute of coverage of every hot button topic and while he's very knowledgeable and informed he's also miserable. All that negative info takes it's toll and lessens his ability to believe in human kind. He's informed like few others but is he better for it? I don't know.

Me? - I fall somewhere in the middle. I feel it's my responsibility to be informed but during times like the past few days I want to shirk that responsibility and just ride my bike until I can't turn the pedals over one one time and then fall into bed. I just don't know.

In the mean time I try to treat others the way I'd like to be treated. I try to smile at everyone, even those who look down at me. I try to be helpful to others. I try to use my work life to make beautiful things that will bring joy to their owners. Is this enough? Some days yes, many days no. But it's all I got and I struggle with the balance every day.

Greg - I wish I could join you for a beer and some of that wonderful food. That would be one of those things that makes life a true blessing.

dave

This increasingly describes me. I have always been a news hound, but I have recently abandoned twitter (no idea how I will get customer support from the cable company now) and have hidden everything but event pages on my facebook account, and I have unsubscribed from most of the "news" sources I was following.

I have decided that I will go back to what worked well for me many long years ago; I will buy a newspaper in the morning. I will read it while having a coffee and then I will tune into a music channel.

Cable 24 hour "news" stations will no longer be watched.

I woke up on Sunday, before I knew anything about what had happened overnight I was reading the usual rants about how "this wouldn't have happened if more people had guns" ......... aside from being shocked and depressed I made the deliberate decision not to turn on the TV (apart from the soccer game) on Sunday. I worked on my bike, I worked on my garden, I listened to music and was much happier.

It worked.

newspaper and coffee for me.

[leftyfreak]

In the mean time I try to treat others the way I'd like to be treated. I try to smile at everyone, even those who look down at me. I try to be helpful to others. I try to use my work life to make beautiful things that will bring joy to their owners. Is this enough? Some days yes, many days no. But it's all I got and I struggle with the balance every day.



This strikes a chord with me--thanks, Dave. I spend my days teaching saxophone, with the hope that I can make a difference in the lives of those whom I teach. If I'm lucky, when I'm old I'll be able to say that I brought a little more beauty to the world, and that I helped some kids fulfill their potentials as human beings. And you're right, this so often feels too small, too inconsequential, but at the same time, it's essential that I keep doing what I do, and that you keep doing what you do.

If you ever come to Boston, I'll buy you a beer, and we can ride together--anytime.

[Hilltopperny]

I have to admit that I've let myself get consumed by this years presidential race and have done my due diligence in researching all of them. I lost a lot of sleep and created a lot of stress in my personal life over it. Cable has been gone for years and last night I ended my Facebook account. I am going to focus on the little things and get back to my normal routine. Going to ride my bike and get back to the basics.

[rugbysecondrow]

Whenever I leave the internet and news media for a while the world doesn't seem as bad of a place.



This. I think the world is a very good place, especially America. 1 person killed 49, how many hundreds or thousands donated time, money or blood to help? We can focus on the 1, or focus on the thousands.

Also, I read an article the other day that said, "The consequence of free will is regret", and in our society we have a
great deal of free will which can cause problems, but they also offer promise and freedoms.

I don't believe you can offer one without the other. If there is alcohol to drink, there will be DUI deaths. If there are guns, there will be bad people who misuse them. If there is sexual freedom, there will be abortions. If there is food, there will be fat people.

The consequence of freedom is that you can't control what other people do.

For me, I don't really watch the news. I try to be aware, but not inundated. My wife and I were talking about the Orlando shooting and there really wasn't much to say, beyond acknowledging the tragic nature of it.

[54ny77]

I blame Al Gore for inventing the internet.

[fuzzalow]

I reject the notion that a global citizen's news & information inputs must be reduced or simplified. Read. There is little that is more fundamental, or more simplistic, a skill to be acquired from any K-12 education than the ability, and the desire, to read.

Cable news, social media, hate radio, all that useless noise from stupid people or organizations with an ulterior motive - fuhgeddabouddit!

It need not consume your day, takes very little time and provides enjoyment. It might even make you sound smarter than you are which is something I shoot for with limited success but what the heck...

The NYTimes. WSJ. Every day. Read OpEds from both to hear opposing sides.

The Economist. The New Yorker. Every week.

The Atlantic. Foreign Affairs. Vanity Fair. Every so often.

Rolling Stone. Even less often but they try to break news sometimes.

I'm always looking for new & interesting things to read. In past lives as a stock analyst or as an investment strategist I was paid to read anything and everything. And then I was paid to write about it and what I read.

I write stuff here alla time for nuthin' and for fun. HaHa, finally equilibrated to the true value of the content I create!

[EDS]

I think our problems are threefold.

One people mistake entertainment programming and content (i.e., cable news and agenda driven internet and print based media) for actual news.

Secondly, there has been a huge degradation in our nations political leadership as the best and brightest no longer consider a career in politics as a path to achievement/fulfillment. Look no further than the divisive candidates the two major political parties have put forward.

Finally, people are not asking the right questions as to why there are so many "terrorist" events and threats now. To be clear, it is not our "freedom" the "terrorists" hate.

[Mzilliox]

I'm new on this forum and I've been reading the comments expressed in this thread, in particular. I must say that I'm very impressed with the level of discourse and have enjoyed reading all of the sober, thoughtful commentary. It is a nice contrast to what I have found on so many other fora and, I find myself doing more reading and listening than making idle commentary myself; and that is a good thing. :beer:

its a special place here, and welcome! :beer:

[malcolm]

Just read the OP haven't read the responses but will.

We are close in age and I feel similar. I grew up very much a love it or leave kinda guy. I find I've become way more liberal and tolerant as I've aged. I was fortunate to be able to travel a lot while in the military and saw lots of other places. Then after education I was again fortunate enough to be able to travel a fair amount on my own.

I still think we have a lot of positives in this country. My wife and I waited until fairly late to have kids so I have a 13 and 15 year old. I see a lot of promise in the younger generations and I see hope in immigrants around me. The Indian family that own the cheveron where I get gas and various small items. Husband and Wife and one of them is there everyday yet they remain incredibly friendly and upbeat. We've not discussed it directly but I suspect they love this place.
I come here regularly and contrary to some seldom for the bike content. Intelligent thoughtful people that sometimes I couldn't disagree with more yet most are always sincere and respectful.

I don't think any of this stuff is necessarily unique to the US. I think we mirror the issues of the rest of the world. It seems magnified here because as a superpower or global leader all eyes are on us. Our resources, liberties and freedoms are abundant and unfortunately so are our excesses and extremes. We have always been geographically isolated, less so now with modern travel, but when we became a dominate power/culture during/after WW2 the average Joe wasn't traveling to another continent. I think that helped produce an arrogance toward other cultures, countries or things just not American that we still see today. Growing up in Europe for example most folks could get in a car and easily visit several other countries.

The world has become way more complex. Everyone in every place on the planet is aware of everyone else even if just through the internet. We have truly become a global community no matter if we accept that or not, yet will still tend to cling to things that group us in categories other than just being human. We identify ourselves by religion, by culture, by country and that thinking is outdated and unproductive. We need to wake up and start cooperating across these differences instead of using them to segregate. We are also quite small with relatively short life spans thus we have a hard time understanding the vastness of the universe and conversely how small our world actually is. Even with all the data we have most folks just can't comprehend that there may be too many of us or that we could possible use up our planet. We can't see far enough into the future to understand that there may be a tipping point we are about to cross or have already crossed.

I have hope but I don't limit it to the US I have hope in people. I think this community right here proves it. There are just more decent people around than there are wicked. For every deranged guy that shoots up a night club there are thousands of Matt Tucks, that give a guy in need a ride or similar. You don't hear about it on the news, but those thousands trump one lunatic every time.

[SpokeValley]

I believe that America is the best country on the planet and I continue to be optimistic that we will continue in that distinction.

I also believe that we got to this enviable place because of our Constitution.

There is no other document like it and it is directly for American exceptionalism. No changes are necessary (except maybe a term limits amendment to get the career fossils out of government...like that will ever happen).

I do think that in general, things are pretty good for most people, but it's very frustrating that:

-Our government is right out of control..it wastes OUR money on stupid things that were never authorized in the Constitution, is hampering growth with taxes and regulations, and has forgotten that it they are supposed to be looking out for America...not their own purses. And we continue to let them.
-The economy is just sucky. As a result, people who are not working, for whatever reason, have time on their hands to do unproductive things. Idle hands...
-We've let "peace through strength" be compromised. Nobody would screw with us if they knew we wouldn't put up with it. And lots of bad guys are screwing with us.

We all have our own difficulties and challenges and our country is no different. The difference is that you and I (hopefully) learn from our historical mistakes.

I'm hopeful, prayerful, and optimistic that my kid's future will be as safe and productive as my life has been.

I also love to ride any one of my bikes and I'm thankful I found cycling and can ride anywhere I please.

[Dead Man]

-We've let "peace through strength" be compromised. Nobody would screw with us if they knew we wouldn't put up with it. And lots of bad guys are screwing with us.

I don't think anyone would be screwing with us right now if we didn't have American-based corporations out exploiting the rest of the world for profit, with our modern professional military acting as armed escort.

Also, our military activities are money. We're at war because it's profitable, not because we're really under any kind of huge risk. Some dudes ram planes into our buildings...... you don't spend the next 15 years occupying their home countries. You just go lay waste, and pull out. No.. we're over there cause rich people are still making money by us being over there.

So I agree and disagree.

If that WAS our response - that we would just go carpet bomb the home nation of any terrorist attack, and immediately leave... I feel strongly that we wouldn't have any more terrorist attacks. Not religious fundamentalist based terrorist attacks.

On another topic, I'm not confident these terrorist attacks are really religious fundamentalist based. For I do not have confidence in the benevolence of the oligarchy.

[verticaldoug]

Depending on your vantage point, the world can look very different.

In London, there is a man working security at our building who is Congolese from the DRC. I have known him for about 7 years.

On a Saturday when I came in to get caught up on some work, he was running the security desk. There is an upcoming Presidential election in the DRC which may or may not happen, and I asked him what his view was on the situation. He explained how the current President needed to cut a deal before retiring with the next 'President' and nothing would change. Then he dropped the bombshell, 'but everyone in Kinshasha is praying Hillary doesn't become the next US president'. This made little sense to me, so I asked why?

They blame the Congo Civil war which started in 1998 after the Rwanda Genocide on President Bill Clinton and US policies. The US and UK have supported Paul Kagame in Rwanda who has funded the M23 Rebels and others in the DRC. Since 1998 until 2008, according to the UN, 5.4million Congolese have been killed. If you add earlier crimes of the Rwanda Genocides starting around 1994, you get to maybe 8 million deaths.

After retiring, PM Blair started Blair Associates and Paul Kagame/Rwanda is one of his largest clients. They continued to receive aid for much too long as they funneled weapons to the rebels in Northeast DRC. (You know those troops that fly in on Helicopters, that shoot Elephants, yeap, you got it)

Obviously, the situation is much more complicated than this, and if you want to know more about the whole Hutu, Tsutsi, and the civil war, you can look it up online.

This is an area of conflict where more people have died than the middle east in the same amount of time, yet most Americans probably cannot locate it on a map. It probably doesn't even register that we had involvement, but the locals have a very different view about Americans stumbling around with their size 12 feet trampling everything.

(This is not meant to be politcal because it is neither for Hillary nor Trump. Because, none of this matters for most Americans and the upcoming election. I am only trying to highlight how completely different the world can look depending on which side of the divide you are on)

[cinema]

They blame the Congo Civil war which started in 1998 after the Rwanda Genocide on President Bill Clinton and US policies.

^^ that has long been the stain on the clinton administration, well known abroad. shameful really. people are now wondering if what we did (or didn't do) in libya and syria will be a similar stain on the obama admin

domestically that stain is nafta and welfare 'reform' but you have to ask yourself if going back to basically mercantilism, which is what trump's schtick implies, is really the way forward.

[Kirk007]

I appreciate all of the thoughts and perspectives shared here; lots of good points and insights and the ideas around the impact of the internet and constant barrage of information rings true to me. And limiting oneself to a more local environment makes sense as a method to enhance happiness, as does the idea of focusing on the small impacts an individual can make. These can be packaged with the concept of living in a place where you find your tribe - Boulder for instance for Old Potato - to carve out, it seems to me a happy existence.

But in doing so are you living in the Shire, oblivious or intentionally ignoring the gathering darkness? Does it matter? Indeed finding my own Shire is the alternative I see to the path that I have followed for decades. It is highly attractive if one has the means but it runs squarely against the purposeful view espoused by someone who I consider much wiser than me, as well as a friend and colleague: "To strive against odds on behalf of all of life would be humanity at its most noble" - E.O. Wilson. Then again, the Tao would counsel, stop striving.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here nor a one size fits all answer. As to life in America, I am similarly conflicted. I have benefited well beyond my share by having the good fortune to have been born in and live my life in the United States. Rugby and a few others have very good points on this - the many many good may outweigh the bad. And Angry Scientist is right, there are many great places and people here. Yet none of that is enough to make me feel optimistic about where America as a country is headed.

I don't know whether I want to continue to accept living in a country awash in guns where death by gunshot will continue to be a leading cause of death (I think this genie is permanently out of the bottle); where, among other things a large percentage of the population is anti-science and increasingly, anti-intellect; where we myopically fail to see the impacts of our actions beyond our borders, and where someone who spews hatred and encourages violence while remaining largely clueless on policy is considered a serious candidate as our leader. Shouldn't we, as humans and Americans,by 2016, have learned from past mistakes, our behavior evolved, our demonizing and killing of others understood as wrong headed and not tolerated, and our warped political system of bought for and accumulated, concentrated power thoroughly rejected; our Republic restored to a place where our elected representatives truly act in the interests of their constituents instead of themselves?

I understand the whole line of reasoning of how not participating makes you part of the problem. But participating and year after year and seeing things get worse rather than better is exhausting. And I understand that no country is perfect. But there may be countries that are doing it better right now (and perhaps that is in part because they don't bear the responsibility of wearing the mantle of leader of the free world). Perhaps this is no longer where my Shire is located. I hear the riding in Velotel's neighborhood is pretty nice....

Oh and David, you and Karen are welcome to join us for great Mexican food and appropriate libations any time! Ditto for any of the other fine folk who hang out here. Thanks for the intelligent discussion!

[Schmed]

... our warped political system of bought for and accumulated, concentrated power thoroughly rejected; our Republic restored to a place where our elected representatives truly act in the interests of their constituents instead of themselves?


I think that's how Trump achieved such unheard of popularity - even in the face of his bombastic statements and positions. Some of us are so tired of the establishment politicians, that we crave an outsider. We pinch our nose, and vote for the anti-establishment candidate despite his outrageousness. Same with Bernie Sanders, I think.

The pendulum swings.

[Elefantino]

I know a guy who watches every minute of coverage of every hot button topic and while he's very knowledgeable and informed he's also miserable. All that negative info takes it's toll and lessens his ability to believe in human kind.
This.

[Scuzzer]

Yet none of that is enough to make me feel optimistic about where America as a country is headed.

Seriously man, none of us elected you to be the main person to worry about all the evils of humanity so why do you take up the mantle so readily? What is it about yourself that feels some type of satisfaction worrying about stuff that others don't? Everyone has a cross to bear, why did you pick this one?

Not trying to be negative, just trying to understand why you put the weight of the world on your own shoulders so willingly.

[rustychisel]

Seriously man, none of us elected you to be the main person to worry about all the evils of humanity so why do you take up the mantle so readily? What is it about yourself that feels some type of satisfaction worrying about stuff that others don't? Everyone has a cross to bear, why did you pick this one?

Not trying to be negative, just trying to understand why you put the weight of the world on your own shoulders so willingly.

You don't get to be elected. The Lady of the Lake, Guinevere, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the waters...

But seriously, he's thoughtful. Thoughtful and serious. Thoughtful, serious and concerned. That's fair qualification in my book. :beer:

[Kirk007]

What is it about yourself that feels some type of satisfaction worrying about stuff that others don't?



I don't think a sense of satisfaction or worrying has anything to do with it. Since an early age I have felt compelled to try to speak and act for the voiceless, primarily but not exclusively the other species that occupy earth. So I became a biologist, then a lawyer, then a ngo business leader. More generally it seems to me everyone bears a responsibility to care for the greater community. Some offer up their lives in service to America; I consider what I try to do for this place of far lesser contribution than many.

My motivation for giving a sh*t about the state of America - many but two primary ones: on the current course of environmental degradation we will drive approximately 50% of all species on earth to extinction by as early as 2045 or certainly by 2100. We may be on the wrong side of the 50%. We can lead the battle to save life on earth or we can sit on our hands buying things and consuming everything in our sight. America needs to lead; if we don't the chances of success shrink. Yet America hasn't stepped up to the challenge and doesn't seem inclined or capable of doing so. Our human inability to adequately assess long term threats is exacerbated by our the current denigration by many of Americans of science and thought, the continued rapacious consumption of space and natural resources for short term needs, and an infected political system that puts personal gain of a few above the best interests of the many. Rather than working together for the common good the 1% gather resources for the days ahead at the expense of their fellow Americans, who are and are likely to continue to be marginalized. And I have a son who will co- inherit the mess that we have made. Connect the dots.

Oh -- and because I can. I am very fortunate to be relatively secure with a solid roof over my head, food on the table, a financial plan in place. I'm not struggling just to get by on a daily basis as so many folks are.

[malcolm]

Seriously man, none of us elected you to be the main person to worry about all the evils of humanity so why do you take up the mantle so readily? What is it about yourself that feels some type of satisfaction worrying about stuff that others don't? Everyone has a cross to bear, why did you pick this one?

Not trying to be negative, just trying to understand why you put the weight of the world on your own shoulders so willingly.

Maybe you should reverse your thinking. Ask yourself why you choose not to.

I'm concerned for the person that doesn't at least ponder the problems that Kirk mentions. How does one live and consume in this environment and not wonder about such things?

I don't think he or any one of us perceive ourselves as carrying the mantle of humanities evils nor bearing the cross. I think a thoughtful human and fellow inhabitant of this planet sees things going in a negative or unsustainable direction and is concerned.

I would argue to be otherwise is either to be ignorant at worst or have you head in the sand at best.

[rugbysecondrow]

Focusing on the abundant goodness in people and society is not ignoring darkness, but rather seeing the true daily happenings which make this world a better place. I believe focusing on the darkness falsifies the problems by skewing the severity. In short, I think the realities you have observed are different than the statistics bear out. An Ex. We have 325,000,000 people in the USA, about 11,000 homicide by gun deaths in the USA (2014), and it continues to go down year after year, it is half of what it was in 1993. In fact murders as a whole, across all categories, have gone down over the last 25 years. This is NOT the message you would get from the media, Facebook, twitter etc. If you have just focused on the problem and the inundation of media, you will lose site of the actual improvements we as a society are making. This is not to ignore areas of improvement, but it also frames the proper scope of the proble. This is just one, but a current example.

Are people really more anti science than they were at any other time in history, or is that just narrative espoused out of frustration because not all have been convinced of something? Science and policy have been intermingled. Global Warming is an area where liberals say many conservatives are anti-science. Fair enough, but many conservatives would say that many liberals are anti-science when it comes to abortion and life. It isn't anti-science so much as it is politics and policy. Then you have gay marriage, with our more and more in our country coming around to the idea that equality matters, that people should be happy and be able to enjoy life with one another. Science need not be part of the discussion, or else we could say there is no biological reason for these unions. The emotional views should be heard, ones based on justice.

My point is not to argue pro's and con's, but to point out that people, I think, are trying to understand. Many have a lesser or a different capacity for understanding, and we have to accept that. The reality is that we each have a finite capacity for knowledge, feeling, and really managing empathy. To whom can you most impact with that finite capacity? We can't all care about everything, because then we would really not focus and care about anything (imagine that car with 40 issue based bumper stickers). They are empty beliefs. Trusting that others will care and put effort into other issues is something we must do, and be willing to accept that sometimes that wont happen. Zone defense, to use a sport analogy. We have to play our positions.

This might also be a personal thing you are working through or maybe you are a pessimist who is prone to seeing the world a certain way. I don't say that in a negative way.

I appreciate all of the thoughts and perspectives shared here; lots of good points and insights and the ideas around the impact of the internet and constant barrage of information rings true to me. And limiting oneself to a more local environment makes sense as a method to enhance happiness, as does the idea of focusing on the small impacts an individual can make. These can be packaged with the concept of living in a place where you find your tribe - Boulder for instance for Old Potato - to carve out, it seems to me a happy existence.

But in doing so are you living in the Shire, oblivious or intentionally ignoring the gathering darkness? Does it matter? Indeed finding my own Shire is the alternative I see to the path that I have followed for decades. It is highly attractive if one has the means but it runs squarely against the purposeful view espoused by someone who I consider much wiser than me, as well as a friend and colleague: "To strive against odds on behalf of all of life would be humanity at its most noble" - E.O. Wilson. Then again, the Tao would counsel, stop striving.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here nor a one size fits all answer. As to life in America, I am similarly conflicted. I have benefited well beyond my share by having the good fortune to have been born in and live my life in the United States. Rugby and a few others have very good points on this - the many many good may outweigh the bad. And Angry Scientist is right, there are many great places and people here. Yet none of that is enough to make me feel optimistic about where America as a country is headed.

I don't know whether I want to continue to accept living in a country awash in guns where death by gunshot will continue to be a leading cause of death (I think this genie is permanently out of the bottle); where, among other things a large percentage of the population is anti-science and increasingly, anti-intellect; where we myopically fail to see the impacts of our actions beyond our borders, and where someone who spews hatred and encourages violence while remaining largely clueless on policy is considered a serious candidate as our leader. Shouldn't we, as humans and Americans,by 2016, have learned from past mistakes, our behavior evolved, our demonizing and killing of others understood as wrong headed and not tolerated, and our warped political system of bought for and accumulated, concentrated power thoroughly rejected; our Republic restored to a place where our elected representatives truly act in the interests of their constituents instead of themselves?

I understand the whole line of reasoning of how not participating makes you part of the problem. But participating and year after year and seeing things get worse rather than better is exhausting. And I understand that no country is perfect. But there may be countries that are doing it better right now (and perhaps that is in part because they don't bear the responsibility of wearing the mantle of leader of the free world). Perhaps this is no longer where my Shire is located. I hear the riding in Velotel's neighborhood is pretty nice....

Oh and David, you and Karen are welcome to join us for great Mexican food and appropriate libations any time! Ditto for any of the other fine folk who hang out here. Thanks for the intelligent discussion!

[Climb01742]

Kirk007,

It's something I think about too. For what they're worth, here are two things I've considered:

1) I don't think humanity, as a whole, has changed that much on a deep, fundamental level. There are probably about the same % of good and bad people as there ever have been. Studying history inspires us before the soaring nobility of the human spirit and depresses us before our equally soaring depravity. The quote the Talking Heads, same as it ever was. What has changed, though, and changed dramatically, is how individuals and ideas can now be amplified globally in moments by technology. Throughout most of history, hatred, ugliness, depravity and dangerous ideas (with exceptions like the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades) were more localized. The scope of their harm couldn't spread virally. Now it can. One madman's idea can now be seen and heard by millions. There is no more obscure knowledge; any nut can google how to make bombs. Militants in a cave can YouTube their hatred to unstable people everywhere. Perhaps even more insidiously, news was once about a hour a day, 30 minutes of local, 30 minutes of national network, and however long anyone devoted to a newspaper. Now, it's 24/7. Problem is, there simply isn't enough actual, valuable 'news' to fill the hours. So incendiary, manipulated, and outright false crap is broadcast constantly. Does anyone think this creates 24 times more light per day, or 24 times more fire and anger and rage per day? My bottomline: as individuals, as a society and as world, we need to be far more selective in how we use the technologies available to us. We're just beginning, I think, to understand what all our new technologies are doing to the fabric of our lives and society. It's not all good.

2) I think America has shifted the balance of its thinking from what are my responsibilities to my fellow man/woman/citizen to what are my rights and the f is trying to take them from me? More of us have become selfish citizens instead of responsible citizens. Me trumps we (pun intended). My AR-15 means more to me than your life. Why is this happening? Is it the arc of empires, the bell curve of prosperity, the fate of nations? I don't know. But I do know that our greatest document begins with 'We the people...", not "Me the individual..." I think we've lost something.

I wish I had answers to offer.

[Hilltopperny]

Kirk007,

It's something I think about too. For what they're worth, here are two things I've considered:

1) I don't think humanity, as a whole, has changed that much on a deep, fundamental level. There are probably about the same % of good and bad people as there ever have been. Studying history inspires us before the soaring nobility of the human spirit and depresses us before our equally soaring depravity. The quote the Talking Heads, same as it ever was. What has changed, though, and changed dramatically, is how individuals and ideas can now be amplified globally in moments by technology. Throughout most of history, hatred, ugliness, depravity and dangerous ideas (with exceptions like the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades) were more localized. The scope of their harm couldn't spread virally. Now it can. One madman's idea can now be seen and heard by millions. There is no more obscure knowledge; any nut can google how to make bombs. Militants in a cave can YouTube their hatred to unstable people everywhere. Perhaps even more insidiously, news was once about a hour a day, 30 minutes of local, 30 minutes of national network, and however long anyone devoted to a newspaper. Now, it's 24/7. Problem is, there simply isn't enough actual, valuable 'news' to fill the hours. So incendiary, manipulated, and outright false crap is broadcast constantly. Does anyone think this creates 24 times more light per day, or 24 times more fire and anger and rage per day? My bottomline: as individuals, as a society and as world, we need to be far more selective in how we use the technologies available to us. We're just beginning, I think, to understand what all our new technologies are doing to the fabric of our lives and society. It's not all good.

2) I think America has shifted the balance of its thinking from what are my responsibilities to my fellow man/woman/citizen to what are my rights and the f is trying to take them from me? More of us have become selfish citizens instead of responsible citizens. Me trumps we (pun intended). My AR-15 means more to me than your life. Why is this happening? Is it the arc of empires, the bell curve of prosperity, the fate of nations? I don't know. But I do know that our greatest document begins with 'We the people...", not "Me the individual..." I think we've lost something.

I wish I had answers to offer.

:hello:

[shovelhd]

Interesting conversation with interesting viewpoints. While I don't agree with all of them, I find it refreshing that they can be stated here without any repercussions.

I am pretty much a conservative with a socially open mind. What's influenced my beliefs more than anything lately are my two millenial children, ages 26 and 20. Both were born with a disability and are active in the LBGT community. One is a freelance journalist living paycheck to paycheck and the other is a college student in a major design school. Two different vocations, but they have one thing in common, they want to change the world. I find this in many of the millenials I've met. They go about it very differently than my generation but they have the drive and creativity to have a shot of making it happen. Where my generation changed the world with violence and nation building, they are approaching it with influence, thought, and non stop communication. They don't take no for an answer. They network better than any generation I've seen because they were born with technology. These tools are an extension of their minds, and they share their thoughts freely.

What grinds on me daily is the dishonesty of the press and the bias that is presented as news. I can't think of a time in my life where this has been more prevalent than now. Sure, I could coddle up to the bias that is closest to me, or I could tune it out altogether for a part of my day, but that's not keeping me informed. I find myself bouncing back and forth between extremes and I just end up aggravated. Interestingly enough, my journalist son feels the same way at times. He works hard to present a neutral, or at least a balanced view, in what he writes.

Enough rambling for now.

[Dead Man]

Kirk007,

It's something I think about too. For what they're worth, here are two things I've considered:

1) I don't think humanity, as a whole, has changed that much on a deep, fundamental level. There are probably about the same % of good and bad people as there ever have been. Studying history inspires us before the soaring nobility of the human spirit and depresses us before our equally soaring depravity. The quote the Talking Heads, same as it ever was. What has changed, though, and changed dramatically, is how individuals and ideas can now be amplified globally in moments by technology. Throughout most of history, hatred, ugliness, depravity and dangerous ideas (with exceptions like the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades) were more localized. The scope of their harm couldn't spread virally. Now it can. One madman's idea can now be seen and heard by millions. There is no more obscure knowledge; any nut can google how to make bombs. Militants in a cave can YouTube their hatred to unstable people everywhere. Perhaps even more insidiously, news was once about a hour a day, 30 minutes of local, 30 minutes of national network, and however long anyone devoted to a newspaper. Now, it's 24/7. Problem is, there simply isn't enough actual, valuable 'news' to fill the hours. So incendiary, manipulated, and outright false crap is broadcast constantly. Does anyone think this creates 24 times more light per day, or 24 times more fire and anger and rage per day? My bottomline: as individuals, as a society and as world, we need to be far more selective in how we use the technologies available to us. We're just beginning, I think, to understand what all our new technologies are doing to the fabric of our lives and society. It's not all good.

2) I think America has shifted the balance of its thinking from what are my responsibilities to my fellow man/woman/citizen to what are my rights and the f is trying to take them from me? More of us have become selfish citizens instead of responsible citizens. Me trumps we (pun intended). My AR-15 means more to me than your life. Why is this happening? Is it the arc of empires, the bell curve of prosperity, the fate of nations? I don't know. But I do know that our greatest document begins with 'We the people...", not "Me the individual..." I think we've lost something.

I wish I had answers to offer.

Pretty weak example there in number 2. You're faulting people for demanding full and free expression of a constitutionally protected civil liberty. seems to me you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing, except less justifiably so. "My desire to not be irrationally afraid of an AR15 (which don't even make the top-1000 list of things that are more likely to prematurely kill you) trumps everyone else's constitutionally protected civil liberty." Look in the mirror, brother.

[Joxster]

Won't Donald Trump make everything better?

[soulspinner]

I don't think a sense of satisfaction or worrying has anything to do with it. Since an early age I have felt compelled to try to speak and act for the voiceless, primarily but not exclusively the other species that occupy earth. So I became a biologist, then a lawyer, then a ngo business leader. More generally it seems to me everyone bears a responsibility to care for the greater community. Some offer up their lives in service to America; I consider what I try to do for this place of far lesser contribution than many.

My motivation for giving a sh*t about the state of America - many but two primary ones: on the current course of environmental degradation we will drive approximately 50% of all species on earth to extinction by as early as 2045 or certainly by 2100. We may be on the wrong side of the 50%. We can lead the battle to save life on earth or we can sit on our hands buying things and consuming everything in our sight. America needs to lead; if we don't the chances of success shrink. Yet America hasn't stepped up to the challenge and doesn't seem inclined or capable of doing so. Our human inability to adequately assess long term threats is exacerbated by our the current denigration by many of Americans of science and thought, the continued rapacious consumption of space and natural resources for short term needs, and an infected political system that puts personal gain of a few above the best interests of the many. Rather than working together for the common good the 1% gather resources for the days ahead at the expense of their fellow Americans, who are and are likely to continue to be marginalized. And I have a son who will co- inherit the mess that we have made. Connect the dots.

Oh -- and because I can. I am very fortunate to be relatively secure with a solid roof over my head, food on the table, a financial plan in place. I'm not struggling just to get by on a daily basis as so many folks are.

I so appreciate this post.............thanks.

[mg2ride]

Condolences to all those impacted by any tragic event.

[Schmed]

...

I wish I had answers to offer.

That's it in a nutshell. There are no answers. I hate to sound fatalist, but there's nothing you can do except be the best person you can be and try to inspire others to do the same.

You can't make a law for people to care about others. We already have a law against murder. You can't simply tell people to care about others or the environment. You can't outlaw consumerism.

We're a flawed species. We'll either learn to take care of each other and our planet or we'll be extinct.

It sounds shallow, but be a good person, love one another, and you owe it to yourself and your loved ones to be happy.

[Climb01742]

Pretty weak example there in number 2. You're faulting people for demanding full and free expression of a constitutionally protected civil liberty. seems to me you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing, except less justifiably so. "My desire to not be irrationally afraid of an AR15 (which don't even make the top-1000 list of things that are more likely to prematurely kill you) trumps everyone else's constitutionally protected civil liberty." Look in the mirror, brother.

Actually, it's an ideal example. As a society, if we truly wanted to find a sensible middle ground between the right to own a gun (for protection, hunting and sport shooting) and the safety of others, we could permit the ownership of some guns and ban others. This would reflect both sides compromising for the greater good. The NRA's position in opposing any limits on high capacity clips and military-style weapons is putting the few above the many. There is a middle ground for those interested in finding it. A civilized society is a constant balancing of the individual and the whole. There's nothing nefarious in that.

[Schmed]

...Interestingly enough, my journalist son feels the same way at times. He works hard to present a neutral, or at least a balanced view, in what he writes.

Proof that we should be hopeful for the future.

My perception of the younger generation is that they are a bunch of self-absorbed phone zombies. But, we hired 3 young engineers recently, and they are all hard working and striving to do well in their roles. I hope society looks to them as a positive example - even when they are making $$$$ and in the 1% (which they will be if they continue on the path that they are on.)

[Kirk007]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow;1990855.

This might also be a personal thing you are working through or maybe you are a pessimist who is prone to seeing the world a certain way. I don't say that in a negative way.[/QUOTE]

Rugby, I very much appreciate your perspective. I have an office in Durham, we should grab a ride or a beer next time I'm in your neighborhood.

Yes it is a very personal thing that I'm working through; ironically over the very medium that undoubtably contributes to my discontent! But this place is unique - a virtual coffee klatch where one can find a wise and varied perspective on both bikes and other things that matter. That is indeed why I started this thread.

I think that I, like many others in my field, get worn down and prone to pessimism over time. In 1949 Aldo Leopold wrote in Sand County Almanac that “one of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.” True words then and still true today.

At 58 I am starting to lose friends and colleagues to untimely deaths and dread disease. Yesterday I attended services for very close friends' 26 year old son who died from a heroin overdose. This was a kid who played at my house as a youth on almost a daily basis. While there is never a guarantee of a tomorrow for any of us, as we get older I think it is fair to say that this reminder is shoved in our faces on a more regular basis.

With these frequent slaps of mortality comes at least for me a pull to stop striving for change and just focus on all the good that can be had by riding our bikes, spending positive time with friends and family, taking the time to get back to cooking rather than working 60 hour weeks trying to do good. Perhaps its time to focus more on living well. I once saw a small plaque in a bike shop that resonates: "Chop wood. Carry Water. Ride Bike." Yet I don't think I can withdraw completely, as I feel a continued responsibility to act for the greater good. I think my challenge is to strike a very different balance, and that may be best achieved in a different venue. Or maybe it just requires turning off the computer....

[slidey]

I don't have any upsides to add, because realistically I don't see many.

The only silver lining, if you can look at it that way, is that if you continue to live in the western bloc, especially the US, then you'll have increased (compared to the rest of the world) chances of daily sustenance, assuming you can survive the increasing acts of terrorism/chaos.

On the other hand, here's hoping that you find that I'm much more pessimistic (or, realism, as I call it) than you are :beer:

I will add however, that turning your perspective to that of a passive observer in the world theatre makes for a much more relaxed, and tranquil personal demeanour. I firmly believe that it is next to impossible to absolve oneself of all emotion when deciding upon topics that barely touch us, but if you can, then its easy to run these worst-case simulations in your head, and if nothing else, at least be prepared.

[soulspinner]

actually, it's an ideal example. As a society, if we truly wanted to find a sensible middle ground between the right to own a gun (for protection, hunting and sport shooting) and the safety of others, we could permit the ownership of some guns and ban others. This would reflect both sides compromising for the greater good. The nra's position in opposing any limits on high capacity clips and military-style weapons is putting the few above the many. There is a middle ground for those interested in finding it. A civilized society is a constant balancing of the individual and the whole. There's nothing nefarious in that.

+1

[Ray]

Pretty weak example there in number 2. You're faulting people for demanding full and free expression of a constitutionally protected civil liberty. seems to me you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing, except less justifiably so. "My desire to not be irrationally afraid of an AR15 (which don't even make the top-1000 list of things that are more likely to prematurely kill you) trumps everyone else's constitutionally protected civil liberty." Look in the mirror, brother.

That's a reasonable argument to put gun deaths into perspective. By the same token, look at how we deal with "terrorism". We're more likely to get hit by lightning than die in a terrorist incident, but we're turning ourselves inside out to respond to terrorism. And such a relatively small percentage of gun deaths are terrorist related. So I think we put our energy into what concerns us most based on our own personal biases. I think guns are a bigger problem than most gun owners do. Many people think terrorism is a much bigger problem than I do. And we divide into tribes over these issues and ascribe all sorts of good and evil to these tribes. Much of which is driven by our access to instant information and news sources that confirm our biases rather than challenging them. I plead as guilty as anyone on this count.

Frankly, this is one of the things that makes the Orlando attack so interesting, in addition to the obvious horrible tragedy of it. Was it a hate crime? Yeah. Was it Islamic terrorism? Yup, evidently that too. Was it another example of easy access to guns resulting in a tragedy? Yup - not claiming it wouldn't have happened otherwise, but we did make it easy on the guy. Was it a deeply repressed gay man, shamed by religion, acting out against his own instincts? This increasingly looks like it MIGHT be part of the story. Anyone on any side of any political issue can find PLENTY here to glom onto to explain the evils of the world. It's horribly horribly sad, but it's also fascinating...

-Ray

[fuzzalow]

Why do I care about my country, actively participate in its democracy and choose to engage and participate in charities, NGOs and political causes?

Because I can. Because I want to. Because I feel a duty, at the very least, and an obligation, at the very most due to the good fortune of being blessed with much in life. That doesn't neccesarily mean vast money as a Langone, Weil or an Einhorn might have a hospital wing built and named for them but that I have an obligation to perform some good as integral with my life.

In fairness, I didn't have the focus or the money to do this at 35 - I was still building a career. So I was knowledgeable but did no volunteer or pro bono work just yet. But I have never missed a vote, not even a local or congressional vote during the midterm cycle. I always kept up with what was going on in my local town politics and by extension, the national scene. All politics is local. I'll say it again - ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL. Politics wraps around: Your neighborhood, your community, your local government, your taxes, your town benefits, events, fairs, ball fields. ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL.

You stop voting, that's when the crazies, like the NRA with their single-issue zombie voters, they always keep showing up - the NRA never misses a vote. And if you don't vote the zombies speak for you like you are still in the room and that they are now also speaking for you too. Don't let them have this so easily by you being a no-show. The NRA, like any special interest, derives its power not because the majority citizenry support & agree with what the NRA does and stands for - the NRA is powerful because they have money and motivated voters that never miss an election while the majority citizens don't vote and stayed home. Don't let this happen. Vote. Stay in the game. Vote.

Even if we disagree but we all voted, I can handle losing because we all spoke and democracy ruled. But to let this country be run by the lunatic fringe, corporate lobbying interests and Wall Street is a crime perpetrated on our country and a shameful mark on its citizens that allowed it to happen. I don't agree with Mr. Sanders on a lot but he was dead on about saying "millions and millions" that need to join & vote - this wasn't joining a revolution, it was reclaiming your rightful place as an owner/citizen in your own country by exercising your power to vote and be heard.

I'm not getting any younger but I will not scale back. I am not interested in focusing only on myself, my family. I will refuse to quit. Negativity is too easy and is the natural impulse of humans which I refuse to succumb to. I can work through what my conscience tells me to do and work in whatever ways, big and small, to keep that constructive, positive and purposeful life force alive and working. What fun & challenge is there in just rolling over?

I think, therefore I am. Love conquers hate, yeah, all that jazz...

[Dead Man]

Actually, it's an ideal example. As a society, if we truly wanted to find a sensible middle ground between the right to own a gun (for protection, hunting and sport shooting) and the safety of others, we could permit the ownership of some guns and ban others. This would reflect both sides compromising for the greater good. The NRA's position in opposing any limits on high capacity clips and military-style weapons is putting the few above the many. There is a middle ground for those interested in finding it. A civilized society is a constant balancing of the individual and the whole. There's nothing nefarious in that.

Negative. Constitutionally protected civil liberties frequently protect the few, to the chagrin of the many. If mob rule worked, we wouldn't need to protect the unpopular/controversial rights to begin with. I could throw a lot of examples out there, but you're already aware of them. The problem is that this particular right isn't one you care about and apparently misunderstand.

I won't debate gun control in this thread. I'll just point out that we've already done exactly what you're suggesting, many, many times. Read the Wikipedia article on gun control in the US - we've had a constant and consistent attrition of this particular constitutionally-protected civil liberty since 1934.

[rugbysecondrow]

Negative. Constitutionally protected civil liberties frequently protect the few, to the chagrin of the many. If mob rule worked, we wouldn't need to protect the unpopular/controversial rights to begin with. I could throw a lot of examples out there, but you're already aware of them. The problem is that this particular right isn't one you care about and apparently misunderstand.

I won't debate gun control in this thread. I'll just point out that we've already done exactly what you're suggesting, many, many times. Read the Wikipedia article on gun control in the US - we've had a constant and consistent attrition of this particular constitutionally-protected civil liberty since 1934.

I agree with this, and I am not a gun owner.

It is always dangerous when we start picking and choosing which rights are worth keeping. One could argue that the protected right to an abortion kills more annually than guns, but what if a vote determines that right is no longer worth protecting in our society. We have the freedom to consume alcohol and even to choose to engage in dangerous behavior. One could argue that alcohol is way more dangerous than guns, by a strong multiple, but we accept all of those deaths just as a cost of doing business. When a drunk driver kills a family of 5, nobody ever questions whether our alcohol policies in America are screwed up, we just blame the driver. When a person kills a family of 5 with gun, we blame the gun lobby and the 2nd Amendment...then the assailant.

We say, it was preventable, but aren't all of these occurrences very preventable if we really cared?

[rnhood]

Negative. Constitutionally protected civil liberties frequently protect the few, to the chagrin of the many. If mob rule worked, we wouldn't need to protect the unpopular/controversial rights to begin with. I could throw a lot of examples out there, but you're already aware of them. The problem is that this particular right isn't one you care about and apparently misunderstand.

I won't debate gun control in this thread. I'll just point out that we've already done exactly what you're suggesting, many, many times. Read the Wikipedia article on gun control in the US - we've had a constant and consistent attrition of this particular constitutionally-protected civil liberty since 1934.


I also agree with this. Very well spoken.

[Elefantino]

Unlike strict constructionists, I believe that the Constitution is not infallible and open to contemporary interpretation. It was written in the late 18th century to be the blueprint for a new nation. Even the founding fathers realized there was much in it that needed to be changed, almost immediately.

That said, there is too much money riding on the opposite view. Money is - and we the people are not - our government.

[Dead Man]

Unlike strict constructionists, I believe that the Constitution is not infallible and open to contemporary interpretation. It was written in the late 18th century to be the blueprint for a new nation. Even the founding fathers realized there was much in it that needed to be changed, almost immediately.

That said, there is too much money riding on the opposite view. Money is - and we the people are not - our government.

And we've made many changes since, and will still again

It is, however, in whatever current form, the ultimate law of the land. There's no "middle ground" to be obtained - follow it or dont.

[Gsinill]

unlike strict constructionists, i believe that the constitution is not infallible and open to contemporary interpretation. It was written in the late 18th century to be the blueprint for a new nation. Even the founding fathers realized there was much in it that needed to be changed, almost immediately.

That said, there is too much money riding on the opposite view. Money is - and we the people are not - our government.

+1000

[Sierra]

Negative. Constitutionally protected civil liberties frequently protect the few, to the chagrin of the many. If mob rule worked, we wouldn't need to protect the unpopular/controversial rights to begin with. I could throw a lot of examples out there, but you're already aware of them. The problem is that this particular right isn't one you care about and apparently misunderstand.

I won't debate gun control in this thread. I'll just point out that we've already done exactly what you're suggesting, many, many times. Read the Wikipedia article on gun control in the US - we've had a constant and consistent attrition of this particular constitutionally-protected civil liberty since 1934.


Well, it used to be a "right" to own other human beings in this country too. Perhaps, certain "rights" are worthy of suffering some alteration or attrition over time. O tempora o mores!

[Dead Man]

Well, it used to be a "right" to own other human beings in this country too. Perhaps, certain "rights" are worthy of suffering some alteration or attrition over time. O tempora o mores!

It was legal.... but was it a right? Unless I'm unaware of any SCOTUS decisions declaring it a right? (possible, but I'd think I'd remember something like that)

Lots of things are legal, but aren't rights. You don't have a right to drive an automobile, for instance.

[Sierra]

It was legal.... but was it a right? Unless I'm unaware of any SCOTUS decisions declaring it a right? (possible, but I'd think I'd remember something like that)

Lots of things are legal, but aren't rights. You don't have a right to drive an automobile, for instance.

At best, that is a lubricious distinction. :D

[paredown]

It was legal.... but was it a right? Unless I'm unaware of any SCOTUS decisions declaring it a right? (possible, but I'd think I'd remember something like that)

Lots of things are legal, but aren't rights. You don't have a right to drive an automobile, for instance.
Not to get too derailed, but ownership of slaves was a property right--by definition the slaves did not have rights--they were more akin to things--tools maybe--than people. To my knowledge, although no one argued a natural right to enslave others in the Constitutional Convention, slave owners and their supporters could simply fall back on a long history in the common law of 'rights' of slave owners and of those who controlled other indentured laborers--no legislation or court decision required. Even the 13th Amendment doesn't make a claim based on natural rights--it simply outlaws the practice of slavery and involuntary servitude (except as punishment by the state), and grants Congress the power to make laws regarding the same. Fairly modest claims I think...

Regarding the original question, I was sardonically amused to watch the recent documentary about/by Noam Chomsky. 'Requiem for the American Dream' (currently on Netflix). Review here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/movies/review-noam-chomsky-focuses-on-financial-inequality.html?_r=0

For him, it has been all downhill since the populist protests of the '60s and we are facing increasing corporate control of the electoral process, a disappearing middle class and a widening gap between rich and poor.

All true--but the trouble with switching from analysis to forecast--who really knows how this will play out? I agree with the comments about people in despair--life got a lot harder in the "Great Recession" for a lot of us, and has not substantially improved since. But what might be brewing under the surface as far as social change--who knows?

Chomsky is like the rest of us geezers--it is easy to say the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and all the good race horses are dead--but you can only believe this by suppressing the contrary signs. I agree with the positive comments about the millennials; the last word certainly has not been written about the force of social media to spur democratic reforms, China I think will eventually succumb to democratic pressure etc etc.

As usual, I'm a glass half-full kind of guy, despite my tendencies towards Nordic gloominess. I strongly identify though with a comment I heard made by Alan Alda (who fought vigorously for over a year to help pass the ERA)--"I thought we would be doing better by now."

[Schmed]

...Money is - and we the people are not - our government.

Personally, I totally agree with this. I suspect a large majority of the US thinks this, too.

If true, I think it's difficult to justify voting for the more "establishment" candidate that we have before us. How could we vote for "more of the same" and expect change for the better?

For those that want to affect change, I submit that simply voting won't accomplish anything. 1/300,000,000 is horribly insignificant. You should go out and convince many of the other party voters to vote with you. I do not recommend mocking their point of view, however, if you expect to sway them to your side. Speaking purely from a long sales career. ;)

[Climb01742]

Negative. Constitutionally protected civil liberties frequently protect the few, to the chagrin of the many. If mob rule worked, we wouldn't need to protect the unpopular/controversial rights to begin with. I could throw a lot of examples out there, but you're already aware of them. The problem is that this particular right isn't one you care about and apparently misunderstand.

I, too, don't want to derail this thread, but your last sentence goes a bit far. We understand it_differently_which doesn't mean one of us misunderstands it. The entire field of constitutional law is devoted to differing understandings of the Constitution, whether it's a living document or a strict construction, whether rights are absolute or open to some regulation, and what the founders' intent was. This is all open to debate and multiple understandings, some different than yours.

[nmrt]

+10000
Following the consitution is not as simple as "follow it or don't." There are many interpretations of the constitution. And therein lies the rub.

I, too, don't want to derail this thread, but your last sentence goes a bit far. We understand it_differently_which doesn't mean one of us misunderstands it. The entire field of constitutional law is devoted to differing understandings of the Constitution, whether it's a living document or a strict construction, whether rights are absolute or open to some regulation, and what the founders' intent was. This is all open to debate and multiple understandings, some different than yours.

[fuzzalow]

For those that want to affect change, I submit that simply voting won't accomplish anything. 1/300,000,000 is horribly insignificant. You should go out and convince many of the other party voters to vote with you. I do not recommend mocking their point of view, however, if you expect to sway them to your side. Speaking purely from a long sales career. ;)

If you are critiquing my call for participatory democracy, i.e. to vote, you missed my point. I don't care whether you vote with or against anyone else's vote. Get involved, make a decision and vote you conscience. This isn't about winning, it is about responsible citizenry. Getting out to vote is not asking for much IMO.

Respectfully, what you offer here is an excuse for inaction based on defeatist reasoning. You are welcome to pursue your own path, it's a free country, brother. I'll continue with my own quixotic delusions.

There is so much complexity involved with a discussion like this that I wouldn't dare suggest framing the issues or talking of solutions. But it is safe to say that the scope of the challenges faced will require a long commitment by all to a movement greater than that which can be undertaken by individual action. So we will have no choice but to find common cause to address these problems. We will all have to find a part of ourselves that compels us to belong to an effort and undertaking outside of ourselves and of a solution that can only be done with the strength of the national political will. Didn't they used to refer to something like this as patriotism?

You sound like you want to be on a winning team with quick answers. If so, you're barkin' up the wrong tree - you have no idea what we are up against.

[Schmed]

If you are critiquing my call for participatory democracy, i.e. to vote, you missed my point. ...

No - I wasn't referring to your post at all. I'm simply saying that if you (or anyone) wants to make a real difference, get out there and convince others to vote your way. One vote makes no difference. Thousands of votes can make a difference.

So many people just attack the other side instead of listening, understanding, and working to convince others of there way of thinking. Lecturing, whining, complaining does nothing to change minds on the opposite side of an issue. I'm not saying you are doing that, but I think we are talking about making REAL change, and that takes work, not just one vote or a few posts on a forum.

Reading these posts (digital "listening") does open my eyes to other points of view. Lecturing to me and telling me how foolish I am just makes me dig in deeper. Too bad our politicians don't realize this. Or am I the fool?

[fuzzalow]

One vote makes no difference. Thousands of votes can make a difference.

OK. We are talkin' the same thing in different words.

Reading these posts (digital "listening") does open my eyes to other points of view. Lecturing to me and telling me how foolish I am just makes me dig in deeper. Too bad our politicians don't realize this. Or am I the fool?

There are different levels of worldliness and sophistication even throughout this thread. The easiest way to determine a yutz is the distinguish between a response that debates the issues or a response that is pure ad hominem in personalizing, or lecturing against, a disagreement. For many, critique of a talking point is the same as ad hominem, so they reply ad hominem. Hey it's no crime to be left of the curve - just don't argue outta the depth of what can be handled and think people will respect what is said.

Don't blame the politicians. Instead, throw the bums out! If we let them keep their jobs we got nobody to blame but us.

[rugbysecondrow]

As an aside, I came home from the gym this morning at 7:am and my wife had the Today show on. Nobody was watching it, but it was on. Between 7AM and 7:20, 90%+ of the stories were all negative and tragic. Orlando shooting, plane crash, child eaten by alligator, man burned by explosion at a gas station, man hit by girlfriend on a bike, plane crash etc, etc. It just went on and on. On tragedy after another. Finally we turned it off.

A) who the **** wants to wake up to this every day? Why start your day with so much negativity.
B) it is not a reflection of the world, but rather a sourcing of the worst events of the world, organized for your viewing pleasure.
C) It wasn't kid friendly. It graphically showed a man getting run over by a car. It showed a man being blown up and running around on fire. I don't want to sissify by kids, but I also don't want them seeing this false reflection of the world.
D) It panders the the lowest quality version of us as individuals. Those who actually gain enjoyment by watching tragedy.

So, the TV went off, the music came on, and we danced while we made breakfast and ate this morning. It was a way better experience.

Cheers,

Paul

[William]

As an aside, I came home from the gym this morning at 7:am and my wife had the Today show on. Nobody was watching it, but it was on. Between 7AM and 7:20, 90%+ of the stories were all negative and tragic. Orlando shooting, plane crash, child eaten by alligator, man burned by explosion at a gas station, man hit by girlfriend on a bike, plane crash etc, etc. It just went on and on. On tragedy after another. Finally we turned it off.

A) who the **** wants to wake up to this every day? Why start your day with so much negativity.
B) it is not a reflection of the world, but rather a sourcing of the worst events of the world, organized for your viewing pleasure.
C) It wasn't kid friendly. It graphically showed a man getting run over by a car. It showed a man being blown up and running around on fire. I don't want to sissify by kids, but I also don't want them seeing this false reflection of the world.
D) It panders the the lowest quality version of us as individuals. Those who actually gain enjoyment by watching tragedy.

So, the TV went off, the music came on, and we danced while we made breakfast and ate this morning. It was a way better experience.

Cheers,

Paul

I agree, Since getting rid of cable (even then we didn't watch most of what was on) we watch almost no broadcast tv at all. What we do watch on the weekends is entertainment we choose to watch. If I want news I'll go to a couple of sources online to get a cross segment of what's happening or I'll read the paper. We just got tired of all the negativity injected with loads of advertising and worthless programming.







William

[Climb01742]

As an aside, I came home from the gym this morning at 7:am and my wife had the Today show on. Nobody was watching it, but it was on. Between 7AM and 7:20, 90%+ of the stories were all negative and tragic. Orlando shooting, plane crash, child eaten by alligator, man burned by explosion at a gas station, man hit by girlfriend on a bike, plane crash etc, etc. It just went on and on. On tragedy after another. Finally we turned it off.

A) who the **** wants to wake up to this every day? Why start your day with so much negativity.
B) it is not a reflection of the world, but rather a sourcing of the worst events of the world, organized for your viewing pleasure.
C) It wasn't kid friendly. It graphically showed a man getting run over by a car. It showed a man being blown up and running around on fire. I don't want to sissify by kids, but I also don't want them seeing this false reflection of the world.
D) It panders the the lowest quality version of us as individuals. Those who actually gain enjoyment by watching tragedy.

So, the TV went off, the music came on, and we danced while we made breakfast and ate this morning. It was a way better experience.

Cheers,

Paul

You're right and it's sad. Whether it's local or national broadcast/cable news, it appears they've come to the conclusion that tragedy, negativity and crime draw an audience and sell. Which makes you wonder: ratings drive everything TV does, so what is it in TV's audience that wants that much darkness? TV bears part of the blame for pandering to this desire, but the audience for it shares the fault.

We're left, then, to find sources for our news that (we hope) are as objective as possible (hard, I know) and report the full breadth of human experience, not just the negative.

I don't watch local news at all, and very little of any on TV; the exceptions being PBS, BBC America and ESPN.:D Now I get the majority of my news online (the NYTimes and the Guardian) and the handful of magazines I still read, the New Yorker and the Economist...which does reflect a worldview, doesn't it?:D;):p It's hard to remove all bias from our info flow, even our own.

[Ray]

I look to stuff like Facebook for feel good/happy stories, either ABOUT my friends and family, or just stuff that they've found and post. I usually find plenty to smile about there. I tend to ignore about 99% of current events/politics that I come across there. The news, OTOH, is supposed to be about compelling issues that need to be SOLVED, and that implies if not guarantees a fair amount of stories about negative things.

I'm not a junkie - I spend far more time NOT watching news than watching it, but I don't think you can just withdrawal from it and still be a conscientious citizen. I watch enough to know what's going on and supplement the immediate coverage with plenty of reading to gain a more in-depth understanding of the issues that seem most compelling to me.

Some days I turn on the news and just hear re-hashes of the stuff that's been happening over the past several days, at which point I turn it off. But if I didn't keep myself informed about what's going on in the world, with the elections, with domestic issues, etc, I'd feel like I was just ignoring reality and I'd ultimately be less happy that way than by staying informed but also maintaining a balance in my life.

-Ray

[fuzzalow]

You're right and it's sad. Whether it's local or national broadcast/cable news, it appears they've come to the conclusion that tragedy, negativity and crime draw an audience and sell. Which makes you wonder: ratings drive everything TV does, so what is it in TV's audience that wants that much darkness? TV bears part of the blame for pandering to this desire, but the audience for it shares the fault.

The problem here also proposes the solution for this in that it is centric to the dichotomy between content that is paid for versus content that is free. To my view, high quality content usually must be paid for. And frankly, rightly so. I will gladly pay for content that is intended for a more substantive read than the headlines, sensationalism & sound bites that free media must do in competition for ratings, survivability and ultimately profit.

All of cable news (CNN, Fox, MSNBC) is garbage, with some more garbage than others. Anyone with a shred of intelligence is not the audience these shows target and cater to, their goals in making those shows are much less noble than the truth. Don't waste your time or money. Spent it instead on subscriptions to The Economist, WSJ, NYTimes, The New Yorker which are all costly but worth it if you value the quality of your inputs.

Pay for your news & information. Good reportage and good writers, as with any talent, do not come cheap and should be supported. If for no other reason than for these publications and journalists to survive and prosper as the remaining bastions of journalistic integrity that serve the public interest.

[johnmdesigner]

I for one am happy to live in a country where at my desk I can read the internet news feeds from 100 countries and make my own decisions about the state of the world.
I lived in China for a while. Imagine having no freedom of choice when it comes to your information sources. Nothing.
Think about how bad things are in the US and then think about how much worse they could be. You have been born into a freedom that most in the world have never experienced. The criticisms are justified but think about daily life without those freedoms. That would be much worse.

[Anarchist]

I believe that America is the best country on the planet and I continue to be optimistic that we will continue in that distinction.

I also believe that we got to this enviable place because of our Constitution.

There is no other document like it and it is directly for American exceptionalism. No changes are necessary (except maybe a term limits amendment to get the career fossils out of government...like that will ever happen).

I do think that in general, things are pretty good for most people, but it's very frustrating that:

-Our government is right out of control..it wastes OUR money on stupid things that were never authorized in the Constitution, is hampering growth with taxes and regulations, and has forgotten that it they are supposed to be looking out for America...not their own purses. And we continue to let them.
-The economy is just sucky. As a result, people who are not working, for whatever reason, have time on their hands to do unproductive things. Idle hands...
-We've let "peace through strength" be compromised. Nobody would screw with us if they knew we wouldn't put up with it. And lots of bad guys are screwing with us.

We all have our own difficulties and challenges and our country is no different. The difference is that you and I (hopefully) learn from our historical mistakes.

I'm hopeful, prayerful, and optimistic that my kid's future will be as safe and productive as my life has been.

I also love to ride any one of my bikes and I'm thankful I found cycling and can ride anywhere I please.

Jesus wept ..........................