Better living through better science

[William]

A better future through science?

Was Indurain juicing when he blew the whole peloton apart and made up over a 3 minute deficit by the time he hit the finish at the top?

Was Zulle juicing when he soloed on his own and built up close to a 15 minute lead on the peloton and was technically in the yellow jersey on the road until...

Was Indurain juicing when he attacked to reel in Zulle and get back enough time to take back the yellow?

Was Viranque juicing when he soloed with 4 major climbs to go and won on the same stage Fabio Casartelli lost his life?

Was Pantani juicing when he flew away and dropped everyone like a bad habit on Le Alp Duez?

Was Pantani still juicing when he won another climbing stage the next day?

Was Jalabert juicing when he attacked and dropped every one for a solo win on Bastille day?

Was Bijarne Riis juicing when he was taunting Indurain by continually dropping him and and coming back like a yo-yo before going on to win?

Was Neil Stevens, the hardest working domestique in the peloton, juicing when he finally won a stage in the tour?

Was Max Schiandrie juicing when he and the little Columbian (Beunahora?) climber dropped everyone in the mountains, then took the sprint against the climber in the end?

Was Abdujaperohv juicing every time he contested a sprint for points against Jalabert for the green jersey?

Was Tom Steels juicing when he became enraged and threw water bottles at Moncason for doing his impression of a pinball during final sprints?

Was Zabel juicing every time he beat Cipo? Every time he beat anyone?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number one?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number two?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number three?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number four?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number five?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number six?

Was Armstrong juicing when he won Tour number seven?

Was Tyler Hamilton juicing in the Olympics and beyond?

Was his twin juicing in the Olympics and beyond?

Was Dr. Ferrari juicing?

Was everyone who was a client of Dr. Ferrari juicing?

Was everyone on the latest secret list confiscated during the bust juicing?

Can you seriously look at any pro cyclist and not wonder if they are juicing?

Better performance through better science?

William?

[atmo]

Can you seriously look at any pro cyclist and not wonder if they are juicing?

Better performance through better science?

how can you ask this?
these guys are not riding around central park
or doing aids rides. do you think they subsist
on powerbars, pasta, and gatorade? of course
they use science and every available resource
to both recover and excel at what they are paid
to do. and i do believe that it is and always has
been part of their culture, and i believe all of them
feel justified in going right up to and/or stepping
over the borderline that is called the banned list.
that list changes annually to fit the times.

i don't care. i like to watch atmo.

[kestrel]

So, if we assume they are all juiced, it's still a noteworthy sporting event in that the playing field is level eh? ;)

[flydhest]

i don't care. i like to watch atmo.

Thanks, Chauncey.

[atmo]

So, if we assume they are all juiced, it's still a noteworthy sporting event in that the playing field is level eh? ;)
not really. it's no different the the bicycle rules
that the UCI has set so that no superpower country
(in olympic years) or commericial entity (in any
other instance) can gain unfair advantage by dint
of their/its financial resources atmo.


money buys more shet.

[William]

Maybe I should have named the thread, "Better living through banned substances"?

Of course they are going to use all the performance specific science that they can use. Right up to, and likely including the banned substances. Why all the cat and mouse games? Why all the lying and masking? Why the spy vs spy games? We've seen it time and time again, "No I do not, did not, or have ever used banned substances"...."Ok, I did". Do suspension and back to racing.
Why keep doing all this? For the appearance of cleanliness? To save them from themselves? It ain't working folks. Just let them take what ever they want to take and be done with it. Have independent physicians monitor their health with control of a thumbs up or down on whether they can race or not. Other then that, it's a free for all.

The 98 bust and subsequent "cleaning up of the sport" has really gone a long way hasn't it.

If you believe that, I've got a bridge for sale I'm going to post in the classifieds...


William

[flydhest]

William,

Where is the bridge and is it a draw bridge? I have always, always, ever since I was a kid, wanted a real draw bridge.

How firm are you on price?

[atmo]

Maybe I should have named the thread, "Better living through banned substances"?



who cares?
what's not banned now will be next year. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Delgado)
why are we trying to make all this drug activity
fit tidily into nice little compartments that we
can understand atmo?

[kestrel]

not really. it's no different the the bicycle rules
that the UCI has set so that no superpower country
(in olympic years) or commericial entity (in any
other instance) can gain unfair advantage by dint
of their/its financial resources atmo.


money buys more shet.

So you are saying some buy better "juice" than others?

It's still a level playing field. Without the juice, some have better training methods than others, etc., etc., etc. Everyone has access, choices to make.

[William]

William,

Where is the bridge and is it a draw bridge? I have always, always, ever since I was a kid, wanted a real draw bridge.

How firm are you on price?

Fly,

it's a draw bride with a clock. Look, I'll throw in a suit of armor to sweeten the deal.

Price is negotiable,

What do you say?


William

PS: You'll have to pick it up though.

[William]

who cares?


My point exactly. Why the dog and pony show of going after them?


William

[atmo]

So you are saying some buy better "juice" than others?

It's still a level playing field. Without the juice, some have better training methods than others, etc., etc., etc. Everyone has access, choices to make.

it's not a level playing field.
the bigger, more underwritten teams have more
money. is it that hard to understand atmo?

[atmo]

My point exactly. Why the dog and pony show of going after them?


William


if the uci goes after them, it's a whitewash.
if the press and/or the law goes after them,
it's because of possible criminal violations.
that part i can live with as not being a dog
and pony show atmo.

[William]

...or the law goes after them,
it's because of possible criminal violations.
that part i can live with as not being a dog
and pony show atmo.

Agreed.

William

[Grant McLean]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000003RZ0/103-1056948-3358248?v=glance&n=5174

g

[trymorecowbell]

i don't care. i like to watch atmo.

i do care. i don't watch dopers. they suck.

[flydhest]

i do care. i don't watch doppers. they suck.

how can you tell who's who?

[atmo]

i do care. i don't watch doppers. they suck.
doppers?
what sport do you follow?

[keno]

have to make a living, too.

You can't tell the players without a lab report. They're on sale at the concession stands.

William, were you doping when you wrote your posts?

keno

[JohnS]

What I don't understand is with all the accusations and busts, why would anyone want to be a sponsor and put their company's name in the mud?

[keno]

before answering your question "What I don't understand is with all the accusations and busts, why would anyone want to be a sponsor and put their company's name in the mud?", I'd love to see an answer to:

What I don't understand is why would anyone want to be a sponsor, particularly if they have public shareholders?

keno

[kestrel]

it's not a level playing field.
the bigger, more underwritten teams have more
money. is it that hard to understand atmo?

The original premise was the juice, not the money, the teams, the sponsors, the business of cycling, the rest of the world, and our environment and how it is all connected and working.....

My statement was simply, the juice is so widespread that it tends to level the playing field, as level as it ever gets. Not very hard to understand, yes?

[atmo]

What I don't understand is with all the accusations and busts, why would anyone want to be a sponsor and put their company's name in the mud?
before answering your question "What I don't understand is with all the accusations and busts, why would anyone want to be a sponsor and put their company's name in the mud?", I'd love to see an answer to:

What I don't understand is why would anyone want to be a sponsor, particularly if they have public shareholders?

keno

when i'm good, i'm good.
when i'm bad, i'm even better.

or so it goes.

publicity and all that comes with it is priceless
for all those firms that sponsor the sport. right
up until the time that they develop morals and
subsequently use the dope card to explain their
departure, these companies milk the sport and
the results for all they are worth atmo.

[trymorecowbell]

how can you tell who's who?

Can't. I just don't watch and don't support sponsors without an active "no doping" policy. Personally I'd much rather participate than pontificate in front of a screen but I do find some time to follow Jeff K. and Ben J-M since they practice what they preach.

Enough of the keyboard shuffle...time to ride :banana:

[JohnS]

The original premise was the juice, not the money, the teams, the sponsors, the business of cycling, the rest of the world, and our environment and how it is all connected and working.....

My statement was simply, the juice is so widespread that it tends to level the playing field, as level as it ever gets. Not very hard to understand, yes?
Now I remember why I called you obtuse (sorry Jerk). There are different kinds of juice. The richer teams can afford it while the smaller ones can't. Why do you think that no one on USPS/Disco has ever been busted but then had problems when they went to a different team?

[atmo]

Can't. I just don't watch and don't support sponsors without an active "no doping" policy. Personally I'd much rather participate than pontificate in front of a screen but I do find some time to follow Jeff K. and Ben J-M since they practice what they preach.

Enough of the keyboard shufle...time to ride :banana:
hey we agree. i have donated $$$ to brandon
and to matt, and have and proudly wear at least
8 dopers suck and stolen underground t shirts.
alas - a provo moment atmo.

[trymorecowbell]

hey we agree. i have donated $$$ to brandon
and to matt, and have and proudly wear at least
8 dopers suck and stolen underground t shirts.
alas - a provo moment atmo.

:beer: !!!

[J.Greene]

I care about this stuff. I hope that my kids one day will participate in the sport I love. I'd not want to discourage them from going past the club level because of the health dangers. But if they inherited all of their Dad's genes it won't be a problem.

It also bothers me on some level the hero worship that books, tv, press, opra, and yellow wrist bands have created. I think it's fake, cheap and delusional. Not different than other stars and hero's atmo.

JG

[harlond]

if the uci goes after them, it's a whitewash.
if the press and/or the law goes after them,
it's because of possible criminal violations.
that part i can live with as not being a dog
and pony show atmo.Well, are you saying criminal investigations are not a dog and pony show because the police are less likely to engage in a whitewash? I can see that, but for me that doesn't take it out of the dog and pony show realm because it seems like such unwarranted overkill for the state to deploy its enormous criminal powers against athletes, when, as I understand you to be saying (and I'm not disagreeing), it isn't drugs, but dollars, that affect the fairness of competition.

I don't think I have any illusions about Pantani or Ferrari, but putting them on trial under threat of imprisonment always struck me as a dog and pony show of some sort. Maybe dog and pony isn't the right term, so substitute the pejorative term of your choice.

[swoop]

it's just bike racing. there are so many things worth getting upset about... and this aint one of em. if people were this interested in reducing their carbon footprint, or improving public schools, or finding a humanist soluton to immigration issues, or dealing with the malaria epidemic, deforestation or a billion other things i might understand.

but this is just elite level sports, games, entertainment. it isn't the place for a morality dialogue to have much traction.

whether they are doped to the gills or not.. they suffer, they ride with heart, and they are amazing feats. and as much as i love the sport... there are things going on around us that are important. this isn't one of them.

[atmo]

...and as much as i love the sport... there are things going on around us that are important. this isn't one of them.
agreed attaboy.
this is simply one of those jane austen
fodder/neighbors/entertainment things
that gets us through the day atmo.

[Ginger]

You know...I don't understand.

How can someone complain about the drugs in cycling, yet still get excited and post up on enjoying any other pro or college sport from football to auto racing? Heck...they even have a problem with high school kids taking junk so they can do better in their sport.

Is it because we are cyclists ourselves that we object so much to the exposed drug use in the pro ranks?

...and as much as i love the sport... there are things going on around us that are important. this isn't one of them.
agreed.

[William]

William, were you doping when you wrote your posts?

keno

Keno, this is William's lawer J. Childs. Due to a pending court case I can not in good conscousness let William respond to your query.
Earlier he had a pow-wow with someone on this forum. Who told him to have a pow-wow? I didn't tell him to have a pow-wow!"
William's case involves a coffe company and a bike shop. He had to sneak the coffee in the bike shop? That's an enfringement on his rights as a consumer!" And the coffee was too hot!! The coffee company has turned this beautiful specimen into a horrid twisted freak! The man's a goblet by the time this case goes to trial, he'll be nothing but a shriveled head!" He's a victim! his face is horrid, ugly, disgusting! His face is my case!" J's going to cash in on his wretched disfigurement!" Who here offered him a balm! He can't use a balm? Who told him to use a balm?! Atmo?! Who's atmo?! He's taking medical advice from an atmo?! He should have never used the balm! It's a balm you never know what it's going to do!

Why can't William respond on the forum??? When someone makes an offer let them finish before you agree! Twenty years practicing law I've never experienced anything like this! Agree to free coffee from an atmo?! Why would you need free coffee? I don't need free coffee! It only costs a quarter! I can get my own damn coffee!"

To top it off, there's this woman's walking around with nothing but a bra on? William's riding along, gets distracted, wrecks and ruins his dream of being a pro cyclist!"-Do you think we have a case? You bet your a$$ we do!! She's the heiress to the Ole Henry candy bar fortune. I love Ole Henry bars! It has peanuts...nugut...chocolate...yes we definately have a case!"
Everyone knows a bra must fit over skin to fit...like a glove!"


J. Childs ;)

[kestrel]

Now I remember why I called you obtuse .......

Memory has never been your strong suit.

[William]

it's just bike racing. there are so many things worth getting upset about... and this aint one of em. if people were this interested in reducing their carbon footprint, or improving public schools, or finding a humanist soluton to immigration issues, or dealing with the malaria epidemic, deforestation or a billion other things i might understand.

but this is just elite level sports, games, entertainment. it isn't the place for a morality dialogue to have much traction.

whether they are doped to the gills or not.. they suffer, they ride with heart, and they are amazing feats. and as much as i love the sport... there are things going on around us that are important. this isn't one of them.

This is very true. But what do you expect from a bike forum? This isn't the Greenpeace/Border Patrol/Public Schools/Epidemology/ Forestry Forum, The topic is mainly cycling. It's not that important in the grand scheme of things, but I guess the UCI and the French and Spanish police haven't realized that yet either.


William

PS: And no one said they aren't elite athletes either, anyone who has competed at any level realizes that.

[Tom]

I can't tell how fast they are going when I watch them on the TV. I don't know why that is but I wonder if I'd really care if everybody slowed way the hell down. It's the relative position, not the absolute speed, that interests me. Who's ahead? By how far? Who's catching up? That's what interests me.

I still don't relate to it, though.

[inGobwetrust]

Body Miller was right............

[JohnS]

Memory has never been your strong suit.
My sincere apologies. It was Calfeefly. I just remembered that it was someone with a carbon bike nickname. :crap:

[Grant McLean]

it's just bike racing. there are so many things worth getting upset about... and this aint one of em. if people were this interested in reducing their carbon footprint, or improving public schools, or finding a humanist soluton to immigration issues, or dealing with the malaria epidemic, deforestation or a billion other things i might understand.

but this is just elite level sports, games, entertainment. it isn't the place for a morality dialogue to have much traction.

whether they are doped to the gills or not.. they suffer, they ride with heart, and they are amazing feats. and as much as i love the sport... there are things going on around us that are important. this isn't one of them.

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. Sport is very important, if you are
open to it, many life lessons can be won in the arena of competition.

Like when the ref. calls a penalty shot when you didn't foul,
and you're out of the world cup, or when you score on your own goal.
You can learn that you live your life as who you are, and the skills you
develop through sport is your toolbox. Most people go through the motions
of life, in denile of reality. Being able to play by the rules, win or lose,
you are a better person, and have won something very important.
Unless you miss the point of it all entirely.

g

[flydhest]

My sincere apologies. It was Calfeefly. I just remembered that it was someone with a carbon bike nickname. :crap:

Yeah, they all look alike.

Grant,
While I agree, in general with your sentiment, those are the things that kids are supposed to learn from playing sports, in my view. When it's pro sports, that goes out the window. I would have no trouble telling a 10 year old, "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." The same is not true of people who are paid to win. Nobody gets paid to give it that good old college try--oddly enough, not even college athletes.

[Grant McLean]

I can't tell how fast they are going when I watch them on the TV. I don't know why that is but I wonder if I'd really care if everybody slowed way the hell down. It's the relative position, not the absolute speed, that interests me. Who's ahead? By how far? Who's catching up? That's what interests me.


Exactly!

g

[swoop]

i lose faith in people when they let something this removed from any real global importance push them into panty-winding feelings. (whines: oh, i won't ever ride a bike again because jan might have tainted blood) really.. i ask any of you.. how does the fact that some d-1 cyclists are doped have any real impact on your life or the lives of any people around you? now, let's make this even more literal.. you've fallen in love with a sport, that long before you discovered it, embraced doping and now that you have this fondness for it you expect the sport to somehow conform to some infantile wish for purity and morality?

i'm just asking y'all to come live in the real world... and take your anger and dissapointment and maybe invest it something that does need your valuable energy.

sports mean a lot to me. i train on the bike 20 hours a week. i don't dope. sports are entertainment. the way i combat doping is that i don't dope. i try and win races but i don't race to win.. i race to celebrate the fact that i can race. i race because i can. i enjoy the process more than the podium (podiums are great and all but they really don't mean anything). i'm just as happy for guy on another team when he wins as i am for myself.

if you want to get worked up about something .. get worked up to protect these kids that race bikes (ulle is still a kid in my book) that are doped to the gills because the system pushes them into it. get worked up about these guys that have died with sludge for blood in order to keep a 20k euro job racing bikes. go after the corporate pressures put on these guys. the most innocent of all involved happen to be the cyclists themselves. the most disposable folks in the industry are the guys doing the racing.

take your passion about this stuff and instead of getting all knee jerk.. take a step back and look into it. understand the system. hell.. you don't have to look to europe.. just look into college football... they really use those kids too.

this is my last comment ever on this forum regarding doping.... and it goes like this.. sport does not exist on a different moral plane than any other part of life. it isn't exempt from any foibles and failures. there is scandal in sport, there is enron in sport, there is watergate in sport, there is skewed ballot counting in sport, there is cheating in sport because sport is life. there are even false hunts for weapons of mass destruction in sport.

if you want to do something about it.. just live a moral life. make personal choices that are ethical. that will actually have much greater import than blaming this kids for sacrificing their own health in order to just keep their place in the profession. take some of this energy and invest it in helping the widows of riders who have died from doping. take this energy and further embrace the sport.

the high and mighty schtick is a cliche, shows a lack of understanding, reveals an emotional niavity, is simple minded, and is as obscene as the doping itself. go do what i did.. package together some sponsors and go run a 1-3's team that gives all it's winnings to charity, teaches kids from big brothers big sisters how to ride bikes, and supports athletes across the spectrum. we give 10% of our very meaty budget back to charity too. that takes about as much energy as writing this post.

d-1 racing is the sharp end of a very long stick. you have no idea what these kids have done to get there and how much protecting they need. what happens to these kids is that we lay mine fields for them to walk through and then we blame them for the explosions.

just wake up. use all this to wake up even a little bit. your life will improve. go ride your bike. sponsor a local crit. open your eyes. the self-righteous morality chest thumping stuff just makes you look ignorant.

end of all my doping rants.

[Grant McLean]

Yeah, they all look alike.

Grant,
While I agree, in general with your sentiment, those are the things that kids are supposed to learn from playing sports, in my view. When it's pro sports, that goes out the window. I would have no trouble telling a 10 year old, "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." The same is not true of people who are paid to win. Nobody gets paid to give it that good old college try--oddly enough, not even college athletes.

Interesting. Why do they have to be paid to win?

Sponsors want "promotion" and "exposure".
The association with "winning" doesn't come in other areas of marketing.
When BudLite sponsors a concert, does there have to be a winner?

g

[Grant McLean]

i lose faith in people when they let something this removed from any real global importance push them into panty-winding feelings. (whines: oh, i won't ever ride a bike again because jan might have tainted blood) really.. i ask any of you.. how does the fact that some d-1 cyclist are doped have any real impact on your life or the lives of any people around you? now, let's make this even more literal.. you've fallen in love witha sport that long before you discovered it embraced doping and now that you have this fondness for it you expect the sport to somehow conform to some infantile wish for purity and morality?

i'm just asking y'all to come live in the real world... and take your anger and dissapointment and maybe invest it something that does need yor valuable energy.

sports mean a lot to me. i train on the bike 20 hours a week. i don't dope. sports are entertainment. the way i combat doping is that i don't dope. i try and win races but i don't race to win.. i race to celbrate the fact that i can race. i race because i can. i enjoy the process more than the podium (podiums are great and all but they really dont mean anything).

if you want to get worked up about something .. get worked up to protect these kids that race bikes (ulle is still a kid in my book) that are doped to the gills because the system pushes them into it. get worked up about these guys that have died with sludge for blood in order to keep a 20k euro job racing bikes. go after the corporate pressures put on these guys. the most innocent of all involved happen to be the cyclists themselves. the most disposable folks in the industry are the guys doing the racing.

take your passion about this stuff and instead of getting all knee jerk.. take a step back and look into it. understand the system. hell.. you don't have to look to europe.. just look into college football... they really use those kids too.

this is my last comment ever on this forum regarding doping.... and it goes like this.. sport does not exist on a different moral plane than any other part of life. it isn't exempt from any foibles and failures. there is scandal in sport, there is enron in sport, there is watergate in sport, there is skewed ballot counting in sport, there is cheating in sport because sport is life. there are even false hunts for weapons of mass destruction in sport.

if you want to do something about it.. just live a moral life. make personal choices that are ethical. that will actually have much greater import than blaming this kids for sacrificing their own health in order to just keep their place in the profession. take some of this energy and invest it in helping the widows of riders who have died from doping. take this energy and further embrace the sport.

the high and mighty schtick is a cliche, shows a lack of understanding, reveals an emotional niavity, is simple minded, and is as obscene as the doping itself. go do what i did.. package together some sponsors and go run a 1-3's team that gives all it's winnings to charity, teaches kids from big brothers big sisters how to ride bikes, and supports athletes across the spectrum. we give 10% of our very meaty budget back to charity too. that takes about as much energy as writing this post.

d-1 racing is the sharp end of a very long stick. you have no idea what these kids have done to get there and how much protecting they need. what happens tot hese kids is that we lay minefields for them to walk through and then we blame them for the explosions.

just wake up. use all this to wake up even a little bit. your life will improve. go ride your bike. sponsor a local crit. open your eyes. the self-righteous morality chest thumping stuff just makes you look ignorant.

end of all my doping rants.


Bottom line is that there are people who want sports to actually be sports,
and not just entertainment.

Why shouldn't they be pissed because cycling has gone all Geraldo on us fans?

g

[swoop]

cycling hasn't gone anywhere. it's virtually unchanged from day one.

[atmo]

Bottom line is that there are people who want sports to actually be sports,
and not just entertainment.


gee sawa
i agree with swoop.
his entire post should be printed on a tee shirt atmo.


Why shouldn't they be pissed because cycling has gone all Geraldo on us fans?
huh? the sport was always geraldo. it was geraldo before
there was a geraldo, or a fleet steet, or an inside edition.

More than anything, ALL of this reminds me of the scene
at the beginning of the film Sunset Boulevard when actors
William Holden and Gloria Swanson meet with this exchange:
JOE GILLES- "You're Norma Desmond, you used to be in pictures.
You used to be big."
NORMA- "I am big, it's the pictures that got small."

[kestrel]

My sincere apologies. It was Calfeefly. I just remembered that it was someone with a carbon bike nickname. :crap:

To quote a learned forumite: "Sure, No problem."

[Grant McLean]

gee sawa
i agree with swoop.
his entire post should be printed on a tee shirt atmo.


huh? the sport was always geraldo. it was geraldo before
there was a geraldo, or a fleet steet, or an inside edition.


I guess that makes me a real cyclist, and the pro's are just actors
who play one on tv.

I feel better already.

g

[keno]

you're entirely too level-headed and realistic. This is the classroom, not the street, where it is easy to have pure thoughts. I prefer the street, myself; it's far more interesting to me. I have nothing against the idealists, but I doubt some repeal of the laws of human nature is in the making.

"For nothing can seem foul to those that win." Shakespeare. That he wrote that in Henry IV some 500 years ago should provide some insight into how the world works, and into the likelihood that the purity some crave is suspect, at the best, in any real world competitive situation.

keno

[Grant McLean]

you're entirely too level-headed and realistic. This is the classroom, not the street, where it is easy to have pure thoughts. I prefer the street, myself; it's far more interesting to me. I have nothing against the idealists, but I doubt some repeal of the laws of human nature is in the making.

"For nothing can seem foul to those that win." Shakespeare. That he wrote that in Henry IV some 500 years ago should provide some insight into how the world works, and into the likelihood that the purity some crave is suspect, at the best, in any real world competitive situation.

keno

Ya, the streets of Medellín...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humberto_Mu%C3%B1oz_Castro

g

[Too Tall]

Yes.

[chrisroph]

So, if we assume they are all juiced, it's still a noteworthy sporting event in that the playing field is level eh? ;)

It's noteworthy because it's a beautiful sport, juice or not.

But not everybody responds to juice in the same way. And, some juice programs, like training programs, work better for some people than others.

Thus, juice does not make the field level. I am not convinced that the pecking order would be the same in a juice free peloton.

[atmo]

Thus, juice does not make the field level. I am not convinced that the pecking order would be the same in a juice free peloton.

right -
drugs affect people differently, no?

[kestrel]

It's noteworthy because it's a beautiful sport, juice or not.

But not everybody responds to juice in the same way. And, some juice programs, like training programs, work better for some people than others.

Thus, juice does not make the field level. I am not convinced that the pecking order would be the same in a juice free peloton.

Probably poor choice of words on my part. I actually meant as level as it ever could be. Yes, I agree not everyone responds to juice in the same way. Just as without juice, not everyone responds to training in the same way. Still a level playing field, or as level as it gets in life. I think we are agreeing, just from different viewpoints. :beer:

[flydhest]

Harrison Bergeron.

[kestrel]

Harrison Bergeron.

reference to the pro riders, or the forumites here?

[Too Tall]

Rather than re-quote the Lion's soliloquy I'll re-quote...WAIT a goll darn second WHO said that? Grrrrrrrruph Growlllll *PUT em UP Put em UP

Cowardly Lion:

Courage. What makes a King out of a slave? Courage.

What makes the flag on the mast to wave? Courage.

What makes the elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist or the dusky dusk?

What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage.

What makes the Sphinx the 7th Wonder? Courage.

What makes the dawn come up like THUNDER?! Courage.

What makes the Hottentot so hot?

What puts the "ape" in ape-ricot?

Whatta they got that I ain't got?

Dorothy & Friends: Courage!

Cowardly Lion: You can say that again.


*If you got this far :rolleyes: They are our lions. Sometimes they are bad lions often they are our heros too. Choirboys on bikes I don't need, thanks.

[flydhest]

Choirboys on bikes I don't need, thanks.
Clearly, you're not a priest.

[chrisroph]

Probably poor choice of words on my part. I actually meant as level as it ever could be. Yes, I agree not everyone responds to juice in the same way. Just as without juice, not everyone responds to training in the same way. Still a level playing field, or as level as it gets in life. I think we are agreeing, just from different viewpoints. :beer:


I think we are in agreement with slightly different perspectives.

It is still a beautiful sport even with the unfortunate drug scene.

[bcm119]

I've never thought sports were inherently good. Fun, a good outlet for many channels of energy, and entertaining to watch, yes. But a teacher of good values and rules to live your life by, no way. After about age 10, sports teach you all the wrong things, imho. The reality of sports is that winning is the only goal, and working hard to achieve that goal is lumped in with anything else that helps achieve it, at the expense of other important things.
Sports are solely entertainment. The idealist view of sports, which is manifested in its most sickening form by those tv commercials encouraging kids to take up sports instead of drugs, is a farse. Kids' sports suppress social skills and independent thinking, atmo. I've been involved seriously in both sports and drugs (at different times in my life) and honestly I don't think one was any better than the other, and if I had to generalize, I'd say the drug phase taught me more about myself than the sport phase. Needless to say, I don't put much thought into the juice in the peleton- there are too many variables to really care, pro cycling is good entertainment and I can't wait until July 1.

[oracle]

Harrison Bergeron.

a great short story that i first encountered in the seventh grade.
quite topical.

[swoop]

i love that serotta gives up a place to have these conversations. it means a lot to me and makes me respect the brand and the good folks there. thanks you guys.

[oracle]

i love that serotta gives up a place to have these conversations. it means a lot to me and makes me respect the brand and the good folks there. thanks you guys.


true that, swoop dog

[Grant McLean]

I've never thought sports were inherently good. Fun, a good outlet for many channels of energy, and entertaining to watch, yes. But a teacher of good values and rules to live your life by, no way. After about age 10, sports teach you all the wrong things, imho. The reality of sports is that winning is the only goal, and working hard to achieve that goal is lumped in with anything else that helps achieve it, at the expense of other important things.
Sports are solely entertainment. The idealist view of sports, which is manifested in its most sickening form by those tv commercials encouraging kids to take up sports instead of drugs, is a farse. Kids' sports suppress social skills and independent thinking, atmo. I've been involved seriously in both sports and drugs (at different times in my life) and honestly I don't think one was any better than the other, and if I had to generalize, I'd say the drug phase taught me more about myself than the sport phase. Needless to say, I don't put much thought into the juice in the peleton- there are too many variables to really care, pro cycling is good entertainment and I can't wait until July 1.

You could take that general view about anything.

Marriage, work, family, Religion, politics or whatever.

Sport, like life, can be whatever you want it to be,
nobody can tell you differently, it's just a roadmap.

I don't wanna die knowing I wasted my life chasing down
the wrong paths.

g

[atmo]

I don't wanna die knowing I wasted my life chasing down
the wrong paths.

g
there are only paths atmo.

[William]

Believe you me, I have no delusions about sports or cycling in general. I just find the psychology of hypocrisy surrounding it interesting. As far as sport figures as role models go, I think Charles Barkley put it rather well:

Mr. Barkley says: "I am not a role model. I am not paid to be a role model. I am paid to wreak havoc on the basketball court." Mr. Barkley points out that "parents should be role models" and notes that his ability to dunk a basketball does not make him fit to raise America's children.



William

PS: I'll be watching the Tour as usual this year too.

[Grant McLean]

there are only paths atmo.

http://pittsburghbuzz.com/eventlisting/images/wrong_way.jpg

g