Orlando FLA

[rustychisel]

My sincere condolences to all affected by this stupid and senseless act of violence. That is all.

[AllanVarcoe]

Complete senselessness. :(

[Elefantino]

No words.

[eddief]

nothing:

"America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms," American-born al-Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn said in a video. "You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?"

[nesteel]

nothing:

"America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms," American-born al-Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn said in a video. "You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?"

You CANNOT purchase an AUTOMATIC rifle at your local traveling gunshow with such ease. I really wish the liberal media would quit with that fairytail/myth.

The paperwork involved with legally purchasing a full auto is not trivial, nor is the buy in cost.

[Dead Man]

4 posts

[ultraman6970]

Neesteel, here is a lot easier to get a firearm than any other country I know. That's why we are having all the problems with crazy dudes going to the store and getting stuff. I do get that people needs to defend themselves but would not surprise me that the gvmt can't make a balance of where the arms and ammunition is located as today. In some countries the gmvt know exactly what you have and the rounds you have and to buy new rounds you have to justify why and will take you like a month to be actually be able to get those bullets from the store after you paid for them.

I do get that must be a protocol depending of every state of how to buy a gun but after seeing in a documentary that a bank was giving you a shotgun just because you were opening a bank account that means is easier than you think.

Never got a gun so no idea whats the paperwork but for some reason you see this crazies getting a lot of guns too, that says to me that is not terrible hard to the point to deter you from getting it you know.

[BobO]

The quote above said "fully automatic assault rifle," that statement is factually incorrect. Fully automatic weapons are extremely difficult to acquire legally.

[cadence90]

4 posts

A tragedy of course, but we know where threads like this one head.

[Rada]

The quote above said "fully automatic assault rifle," that statement is factually incorrect. Fully automatic weapons are extremely difficult to acquire legally.

True. It is, however, very easy to buy semi automatic assault rifles. In my state they are easier to get than a drivers licence.

[bicycletricycle]

It would be great if this could not be another gun rights post,

Such an incomprehensible act.

What a nightmare.

[rustychisel]

It would be great if this could not be another gun rights post,

Such an incomprehensible act.

What a nightmare.

Thank you. Yes it would.

[Bruce K]

Terminology

An "Assault Rifle" is a fully automatic weapon.

AR stands for Armalite Rifle, Armalite being the company that first produced this style of rifle for the US Army in Viet Nam.

The AR-15 is patterned after an assault weapon but in the end it is still a semi-automatic weapon. One pull of the trigger for one shot only. If not this rifle, then the nut jobs will choose other semi-automatic weapons.

Banning all semi-automatic weapons is not the answer.

The AR-15 is popular for a variety of reasons including durability, ease of maintenance, etc.

It is also popular because The Civilian Marksmanship Program, a government sponsored program has existed for many years promoting competition with military surplus weapons.

This was at the minimum a hate crime against the LGBT community and also a terrorist act.

In other parts of the world these acts are committed by suicide bombers.

This particular person was on the FBI's radar two different occasions (2014 and 2015) and somehow he still slipped through the cracks.

BK

[djg21]

True. It is, however, very easy to buy semi automatic assault rifles. In my state they are easier to get than a drivers licence.

It is easier to purchase a semi-automatic weapon than it is to register to vote in many states. The purported concern over voter fraud, which is ridiculously overstated, is enough to justify some in the Senate and Assembly to take measures to circumscribe the First Amendment, but God forbid a reasonable construction of the Second Amendment even be discussed.

There is no need for anyone outside of the military or law enforcement to own assault weapons whether automatic or semi-automatic. The time has come for this country to have a real discussion about gun control.

And Bruce, your definition of "assault weapon" is great, but it is yours alone, and I presume one the NRA spouts in industry/pro-gun propaganda. The definition of "assault weapon" varies among jurisdictions, but generally encompasses semi-automatic weapons (even Scalia recognized in Heller v. McKinney that fully automatic weapons may be banned, and they are unlawful, and thus, not relevant to the discussion) that have features to facilitate rapid discharge, i.e., detachable magazines, folding or telescoping (collapsible) stocks to reduce length, bayonet lugs, threaded barrels to accept flash suppressors, muzzle brakes, grenade launchers, and/or barrel shrouds to prevent burning of shooter's arm or hand as a safety device.

It's easy to win a debate if you are allowed to frame it first by defining the terms to make opposition seem illogical.

[Ralph]

Lots of guns change hands at a gun show (or parking lot near by) illegally.

[oldpotatoe]

4 posts

No kidding. I've always said, give me $500 and about a week in Denver and I'll show you a full auto AK-47..

Plus google 'AR-15 full auto kits'..tell me what ya find.

BUT the toothpaste is already out of the tube..more guns in the US than TVs. There are 'about' 8 MILLION AR-15s out there right now in private hands.

I'd like to know why 2 interviews with the FBI didn't trigger at least a red flag/delay and further investigation of this guy before he bought the 2 guns and a pile of ammunition.

[fuzzalow]

A senseless tragedy fostered through incomprehensible hate, ignorance and negativity. Therein lies the crux and core of the enemy we face. With all its nuances and complexities of this perverted dogma existing within a free society.

And in spite of the slaughter of tens of lives, some find the petty within themselves to point to the "gotcha" of a firearms designation. Shame on you.

[cadence90]

No kidding. I've always said, give me $500 and about a week in Denver and I'll show you a full auto AK-47..

Plus google 'AR-15 full auto kits'..tell me what ya find.

BUT the toothpaste is already out of the tube..more guns in the US than TVs. There are 'about' 8 MILLION AR-15s out there right now in private hands.
Up to 900 rounds a minute. Apparently, this killer was firing 700.

Slide Fire Solutions introduced a replacement rifle stock called the SSAR-15 that, for $369, allows you to bump fire your AR-15-style rifle from your shoulder while still retaining accuracy and control. The stock, in the simplest terms, is the part of the rifle you hold and brace against your shoulder. According to the Slide Fire website, “unlike traditional bump firing, the Slidestock allows the shooter to properly hold the firearm and maintain complete control at all times. As a result of the forward movement required to discharge each round, the shooter naturally corrects their point-of-aim for each shot and prevents recoil from pushing the firearm's muzzle upward in an unsafe direction.” Or, as the subhed more concisely puts it, the SSAR-15 lets a shooter “unleash 100 rounds, in 7 seconds.” A product review at a site called Guns America notes that the SSAR-15 “installs in one minute with no special skills.”

In its letter to ATF, Slide Fire apparently argued that its product was intended to help people with bad hands.

There is no plausible argument or justification for any civilian, regardless of the condition of their hands, needing a weapon which has the capacity to fire 900 rounds in 60 seconds.

[AngryScientist]

wow, i was outside all day yesterday and hadnt turned on the TV or radio all day, so just seeing all of this now.

this type of thing is happening all too often lately it seems. i'm so saddened to hear the news. another senseless tragedy.

[bcroslin]

i am absolutely crushed today. The worst mass shooting in our nations history happened in my home state. The hopelessness I have for this country is something I'm having a very hard time dealing with. I'm on vacation in VA and thankfully far away from FL. I'm going to get on my bike this morning and go for a ride and hopefully clear me head.

My thoughts are with the victims families this morning. None of them deserve to go through what they're dealing with.

[Tony T]

Well, we're getting used to it. Even here it took over 12 hrs for the first post.
And the discussion, as usual, has turned into the semantics of what an automatic rifle is.

After the Sandy Hook massacre Wayne LaPierre implied that an armed guard would have prevented or minimized the death of the kids. There was an armed guard in Orlando who engaged the shooter, however it did not stop or even lessen the massacre.

The time for increased control was after Sandy Hook. I had thought that the death of 20 little kids would have brought about change, but I realize now that nothing will change.

[William]

My thoughts are with the victims families this morning. None of them deserve to go through what they're dealing with.


My thoughts exactly.

I'm not "Hopeless" for this Country though. A religious zealot/crazy person committed a horrible act in the name of a terrorist organization, not our Country. I don't blame the tools, if it wasn't a firearm it would be bombs just like in other countries. They will use whatever they can use however they can use it. Its a people/mindset/intolerance problem.

Again, my thoughts and prayers go out to the individuals and families touched by this terrorist act.








William

[Ralph]

I live in the metropolitan Orlando area. This is a tragic event. In my view....didn't have to happen.

[AngryScientist]

I'm not "Hopeless" for this Country though. A religious zealot/crazy person committed a horrible act in the name of a terrorist organization, not our Country. I don't blame the tools, if it wasn't a firearm it would be bombs just like in other countries. They will use whatever they can use however they can use it. Its a people/mindset/intolerance problem.


well said, and i agree.

[oldfatslow]

This forum should talk about love of bikes: riding, touring, commuting, maintenance, buying/selling, custom building, and probably more than a 1000 other bike-related topics.

I come here to avoid news and political speech.

I recommend closing this thread.

[Tony T]

There should be a way for someone to avoid clicking on a thread that they do not want to read other than closing it.

[fa63]

I live in the metropolitan Orlando area. This is a tragic event. In my view....didn't have to happen.
Tragic event indeed. I hope the city can bounce back quickly.

Not sure what you meant by "it didn't have to happen", but we couldn't prevent a mass shooting at a military base (Ft. Hood). If a bad guy wants to commit a heinous act, they will find a way to do so.

[Bruce K]

You are wrong on the definition

A semi- automatic is not an assault weapon

Sorry

My competition target pistol is semi-automatic

It is far from an assault weapon

BK

[Tony T]

You are wrong on the definition

A semi- automatic is not an assault weapon



A semi-automatic rifle, can be an assault weapon.
("the U.S. Justice Department said, "In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use.")

I agree that your semi-automatic target pistol in not an assault weapon

[FlashUNC]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm not "Hopeless" for this Country though. A religious zealot/crazy person committed a horrible act in the name of a terrorist organization, not our Country. I don't blame the tools, if it wasn't a firearm it would be bombs just like in other countries. They will use whatever they can use however they can use it. Its a people/mindset/intolerance problem.

Again, my thoughts and prayers go out to the individuals and families touched by this terrorist act.








William

It's not an either/or scenario though is it? We can agree that this was an intolerant jerk while at the same time maybe making it harder for those same intolerant jerks of all stripes to acquire weapons that cause mass carnage?

[Ray]

Well, we're getting used to it. Even here it took over 12 hrs for the first post.
And the discussion, as usual, has turned into the semantics of what an automatic rifle is.

Probably took so long because we knew what the thread would turn into. It's a time to grieve. It was a horrible senseless act like so many other horrible senseless acts - this particular perp was just better at it than those who have come before.

The time for action on guns has come and gone so often I barely consider it anymore. If we did it 20 years ago it might have made a difference - some of these madmen would still have found a way regardless, but the number of gun deaths overall would be much much lower. But there are sooooo many guns in this country today that I frankly question if anything other than confiscation could do much good, and that clearly isn't gonna happen in my lifetime. As the prez said yesterday, to decide to take no action is an action in itself - and that's clearly the path our country has chosen. I just accept this is what our nation is satisfied with and comfortable with and all I can do is hope like hell that none of my loved ones are ever victims of one of these acts. It's a horrible horrible attitude, but it's what I'm left with.

Meantime, keep the victims in your heart - past and future victims because there will clearly be many many more...

-Ray

[Bruce K]

And that ^ is the point

Just as there are folks out there who should not be driving there are folks who should NEVER be allowed to own a gun

This guy was one of them

Co-workers feared him. His wife had to be rescued from him. The FBI talked with him.

How should he have been dealt with beyond preventing him from owning a gun?

BK

[oldpotatoe]

And that ^ is the point

Just as there are folks out there who should not be driving there are folks who should NEVER be allowed to own a gun

This guy was one of them

Co-workers feared him. His wife had to be rescued from him. The FBI talked with him.

How should he have been dealt with beyond preventing him from owning a gun?

BK

That's a good first step but he was also an armed security guard so....There would have been far fewer deaths if he only had a handgun rather than a high capacity magazine rifle.

[ftf]

That's a good first step but he was also an armed security guard so....There would have been far fewer deaths if he only had a handgun rather than a high capacity magazine rifle.

In a lot of countries your average police officer isn't carrying a gun, so how many security guards would need them if there weren't 8 million of these guns on the streets? Probably not many.

[Bruce K]

Actually, not arguing the high capacity magazine issue

I don't see the need for anyone except law enforcement - 10 rounds is plenty for any legitimate sporting/protection situation

BK

[fuzzalow]

This forum should talk about love of bikes: riding, touring, commuting, maintenance, buying/selling, custom building, and probably more than a 1000 other bike-related topics.

I come here to avoid news and political speech.

I recommend closing this thread.

HaHa! And the post that followed called for self restraint while also poking fun at your censorship in its statement. It is not a bad thing to allow expression of grief or dismay. The other stuff that follows is indicative in its own right in whatever form it takes and by who said it.

There should be a way for someone to avoid clicking on a thread that they do not want to read other than closing it.

I don't like that this kinda terrible news must come to the fore but there's nuthin wrong with the membership getting through what has occurred. These discussions all are views to all the membership that I am interested in knowing something about. And in some form or another, where somebody is at or where their comin' from always comes out. Some interesting and not so interesting stuff - but viewed in the context of the group dynamic: all good.

Back on topic: Peace to those touched by this horrific happening.

[djg21]

You are wrong on the definition

A semi- automatic is not an assault weapon

Sorry

My competition target pistol is semi-automatic

It is far from an assault weapon

BK

For purposes of any discussion regarding gun control, the definition is what the relevant state legislatures or Congress says it is. Look at the NY State SAFE act or any other legislation pertaining to "assault weapons." As I indicated, it already is unlawful to own automatic weapons in this country notwithstanding the Second Amendment. Consequently, any assault weapon bans in effect or being contemplated relate to semi-automatic weapons. Stated another way, the question that we now are considering is whether bans similar to those imposed on automatic weapons also should be imposed on semi-automatic weapons equipped with features designed to allow rapid and sustained discharge of ammunition for the sole purpose of maximizing human casualties.

This is a no-brainer. Law abiding citizens do no need assault weapons to defend their homes, shoot at paper targets, or kill deer.

[makoti]

On my ride yesterday, before I'd heard about this latest mass killing, I passed a house having a yard sale. The sign read "Baby clothes Fishing stuff Guns". Guns. For sale at a yard sale. That's nuts. Yeah, they might be too easy to get.

[firerescuefin]

A senseless tragedy fostered through incomprehensible hate, ignorance and negativity. Therein lies the crux and core of the enemy we face. With all its nuances and complexities of this perverted dogma existing within a free society.

And in spite of the slaughter of tens of lives, some find the petty within themselves to point to the "gotcha" of a firearms designation. Shame on you.

My thoughts exactly.

I'm not "Hopeless" for this Country though. A religious zealot/crazy person committed a horrible act in the name of a terrorist organization, not our Country. I don't blame the tools, if it wasn't a firearm it would be bombs just like in other countries. They will use whatever they can use however they can use it. Its a people/mindset/intolerance problem.

Again, my thoughts and prayers go out to the individuals and families touched by this terrorist act.








William



This^

[witcombusa]

Actually, not arguing the high capacity magazine issue

I don't see the need for anyone except law enforcement - 10 rounds is plenty for any legitimate sporting/protection situation

BK

Judging by the ever increasing police shootings of dogs, children, and people in general, 'law enforcement' is the last place I want anything that shoots.

You don't have to buy anything that you don't 'see a need for', I can make that decision for myself thank you...

[soulspinner]

Terminology

An "Assault Rifle" is a fully automatic weapon.

AR stands for Armalite Rifle, Armalite being the company that first produced this style of rifle for the US Army in Viet Nam.

The AR-15 is patterned after an assault weapon but in the end it is still a semi-automatic weapon. One pull of the trigger for one shot only. If not this rifle, then the nut jobs will choose other semi-automatic weapons.

Banning all semi-automatic weapons is not the answer.

The AR-15 is popular for a variety of reasons including durability, ease of maintenance, etc.

It is also popular because The Civilian Marksmanship Program, a government sponsored program has existed for many years promoting competition with military surplus weapons.

This was at the minimum a hate crime against the LGBT community and also a terrorist act.

In other parts of the world these acts are committed by suicide bombers.

This particular person was on the FBI's radar two different occasions (2014 and 2015) and somehow he still slipped through the cracks.

BK

Your last sentence is key. The cracks must be too big.

[firerescuefin]

Your last sentence is key. The cracks must be too big.

I think you underestimate the number of ants. For every one that happens...hundreds are foiled. There is a lot of hate in this world.... Civil liberties come at a cost to all of us. (Not arguing civil liberties)

[choke]

As I indicated, it already is unlawful to own automatic weapons in this country notwithstanding the Second Amendment.That is incorrect. Federal law allows civilians to legally own full-auto weapons though some states don't allow ownership. Before 1934 there were no restrictions; since then one just needs the proper licenses and starting in 1986 one also needs a lot of money since no new full-auto weapons are allowed to be registered (law enforcement is exempt from this) which means there are a finite number available.

An interesting side note: since 1934 only two known homicides have been committed with a legally owned full-auto weapon and one of those was committed (http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/searcy_v_dayton.txt) by an off-duty police officer.

[FlashUNC]

I think you underestimate the number of ants. For every one that happens...hundreds are foiled. There is a lot of hate in this world.... Civil liberties come at a cost to all of us.

We also let the cracks get bigger with policy decisions like letting the Brady Bill provisions expire.

Crazy people in this country have access to firearms unprecedented in the industrialized world.

[BobO]

Your last sentence is key. The cracks must be too big.

The rub is, he hadn't yet committed crime, except perhaps violence against his wife. Accusations that she did not pursue legally. Obviously he was full of hate and had issues. but how do you separate him, (if you identify him) from all of the others who also hate but won't go off like this? I would be cautious about how much authority we give anyone to dictate our lives without due process. Nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime.

[weisan]

I think you underestimate the number of ants. For every one that happens...hundreds are foiled. There is a lot of hate in this world.... Civil liberties come at a cost to all of us. (Not arguing civil liberties)

Word.

If we don't manage ourselves well enough, any one of us here can be a ticking time bomb. If you don't understand that, you don't understand human well enough.

[malcolm]

No need to close this thread the responses are civil. The this is a bike forum argument has come up many times and the folks that have been here a long time value each others opinion far too much to become just another bike forum. I have no other resource with the depth of knowledge I find here and thank you all for that.

I'm ex military and grew up with guns and hunted all my life until the past decade or so. I still own guns although I've not used them in years. I've always supported citizens rights to own any gun they choose if done so legally.

In my opinion I see no need for high capacity semi-auto weapons like the AR-15. For every use I can think of I can come up with a better option of firearm except for putting a maximum amount of lead down range quickly. That is the only thing it really excels at and I shot one regularly for 4 years and have owned them. As far as full auto goes the weapon is more effective fired in semi auto mode unless your eyes are closed and you just spray and pray in which case you are unlikely to hit much.

I think it's time to stop the sales of such weapons and I've argued against this in the past. I know the arguments, too many here already etc.. If nothing else it may limit the degree of carnage.

To the point this was an act of extremism and hatred. Humans treating one another this way is what needs to change. The reasons are legion but I have my ideas and at this point I'll keep them to myself. Guns are tools and unfortunately they have become tools that extremists are using to terrorize us and try and further there deranged fundamentalist agenda. We should limit the weapons that allow this to occur at maximum efficiency and make all others more difficult to obtain. I'm generally not for giving up any freedoms/liberties but this has become insane.

I still can't believe this is real. It's unfathomable that one person could have that much hatred.
I hope the families and community can find some peace in time. I can't begin to imagine their loss.

If this is offensive I apologize in advance and feel free to delete.

[cadence90]

That is incorrect. Federal law allows civilians to legally own full-auto weapons though some states don't allow ownership. Before 1934 there were no restrictions; since then one just needs the proper licenses and starting in 1986 one also needs a lot of money since no new full-auto weapons are allowed to be registered (law enforcement is exempt from this) which means there are a finite number available.

An interesting side note: since 1934 only two known homicides have been committed with a legally owned full-auto weapon and one of those was committed (http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/searcy_v_dayton.txt) by an off-duty police officer.
Then there is a problem with the federal law, and with the semantics.
A FL state senator was on the news last night, pleading for FL to have at least the same restrictions as CA. That is an issue.

A lot of money?
It seems to me one can buy an AR-15 and that SSAR-15 replacement stock for around $1000. Now one has a 900-round/minute killing machine, call it what one will. Why should that be legal in any sense at all?

[livingminimal]

The rub is, he hadn't yet committed crime, except perhaps violence against his wife. Accusations that she did not pursue legally. Obviously he was full of hate and had issues. but how do you separate him, (if you identify him) from all of the others who also hate but won't go off like this? I would be cautious about how much authority we give anyone to dictate our lives without due process. Nobody is a criminal until they commit a crime.

I am pretty vehemently anti-gun (I own two shotguns and three rifles, I have not fired them more than once or twice as an adult), especially AR15s and the ilk used in the last in San Bernardino, Orlando, Oregon, and of course Sandy Hook where I will take this opportunity to remind you once again that TWENTY six year olds were killed.

The NRA, and the infantile fantasies of grown men (And women) wanting to play around with being on the cover of Soldier of Fortune magazine, have blood on their hands. There is simply no reason to own these weapons except that people "want" them and a gazillion dollar industry makes sure it continues to be possible, regardless the cost to our society, like TWENTY SIX YEAR OLDS BEING KILLED BY A MENTALLY UNSTABLE PERSON BY A WEAPON THAT SERVES NO HUNTING/UTILITARIAN PURPOSE.

All that said, I am not sure the prescribed law (THAT PAUL RYAN AND THE GOP SHOT DOWN) in December that would have banned weapons sales to folks on the Terror Watch/No-Fly list would have mattered - this dude was on neither.

To anyone that says this is a bad or tasteless time to talk about GUNS or HOMOPHOBIA can go **** themselves. This is EXACTLY the time to talk about it because the fact that someone was a (by all accounts) DERANGED HOMOPHOBE was LEGALLY ABLE TO PURCHASE A KILLING WEAPON THAT SERVES ZERO PURPOSE EXCEPT EGO SATISFACTION is why 49 innocent people are DEAD today.

It's also a chance to talk about Domestic Violence, why we should encourage conversations about it, and why, if convicted of Domestic Violence (the killer was not, because it seems it went unreported) it should be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for you to purchase a gun.

Anyone that wants to avoid these topics can take their Thoughts and Prayers and go **** themselves.

[ptourkin]

https://scontent.fsan1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13432211_10153648305476179_2184898565012852428_n.j pg?oh=748c6bc9a0d5664df5be25fcff1be131&oe=57D28875

[BobO]

Up to 900 rounds a minute. Apparently, this killer was firing 700.



There is no plausible argument or justification for any civilian, regardless of the condition of their hands, needing a weapon which has the capacity to fire 900 rounds in 60 seconds.

In the interest of factual accuracy. The rifle had the potential RATE of fire of 700rpm but that is not for a duration of a minute. The actual amount of ammunition that can be expended in 60 seconds is much, much lower, and is largely depended on the skill of the operator. Also, 700 rounds of 223 weighs in at around 40 pounds, was he actually carrying that?

[firerescuefin]

I am pretty vehemently anti-gun (I own two shotguns and three rifles, I have not fired them more than once or twice as an adult), especially AR15s and the ilk used in the last in San Bernardino, Orlando, Oregon, and of course Sandy Hook where I will take this opportunity to remind you once again that TWENTY six year olds were killed.

The NRA, and the infantile fantasies of grown men (And women) wanting to play around with being on the cover of Soldier of Fortune magazine, have blood on their hands. There is simply no reason to own these weapons except that people "want" them and a gazillion dollar industry makes sure it continues to be possible, regardless the cost to our society, like TWENTY SIX YEAR OLDS BEING KILLED BY A MENTALLY UNSTABLE PERSON BY A WEAPON THAT SERVES NO HUNTING/UTILITARIAN PURPOSE.

All that said, I am not sure the prescribed law (THAT PAUL RYAN AND THE GOP SHOT DOWN) in December that would have banned weapons sales to folks on the Terror Watch/No-Fly list would have mattered - this dude was on neither.

To anyone that says this is a bad or tasteless time to talk about GUNS or HOMOPHOBIA can go **** themselves. This is EXACTLY the time to talk about it because the fact that someone was a (by all accounts) DERANGED HOMOPHOBE was LEGALLY ABLE TO PURCHASE A KILLING WEAPON THAT SERVES ZERO PURPOSE EXCEPT EGO SATISFACTION is why 49 innocent people are DEAD today.

It's also a chance to talk about Domestic Violence, why we should encourage conversations about it, and why, if convicted of Domestic Violence (the killer was not, because it seems it went unreported) it should be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for you to purchase a gun.

Anyone that wants to avoid these topics can take their Thoughts and Prayers and go **** themselves.

Telling people to go **** themselves is never a good look or called for here...Caps lock doesn't drive your point any harder. The combo of the two undermines any point you're trying to make...and I think you have some valid ones.

[BobO]

I am pretty vehemently anti-gun (I own two shotguns and three rifles, I have not fired them more than once or twice as an adult), especially AR15s and the ilk used in the last in San Bernardino, Orlando, Oregon, and of course Sandy Hook where I will take this opportunity to remind you once again that TWENTY six year olds were killed.

The NRA, and the infantile fantasies of grown men (And women) wanting to play around with being on the cover of Soldier of Fortune magazine, have blood on their hands. There is simply no reason to own these weapons except that people "want" them and a gazillion dollar industry makes sure it continues to be possible, regardless the cost to our society, like TWENTY SIX YEAR OLDS BEING KILLED BY A MENTALLY UNSTABLE PERSON BY A WEAPON THAT SERVES NO HUNTING/UTILITARIAN PURPOSE.

All that said, I am not sure the prescribed law (THAT PAUL RYAN AND THE GOP SHOT DOWN) in December that would have banned weapons sales to folks on the Terror Watch/No-Fly list would have mattered - this dude was on neither.

To anyone that says this is a bad or tasteless time to talk about GUNS or HOMOPHOBIA can go **** themselves. This is EXACTLY the time to talk about it because the fact that someone was a (by all accounts) DERANGED HOMOPHOBE was LEGALLY ABLE TO PURCHASE A KILLING WEAPON THAT SERVES ZERO PURPOSE EXCEPT EGO SATISFACTION is why 49 innocent people are DEAD today.

It's also a chance to talk about Domestic Violence, why we should encourage conversations about it, and why, if convicted of Domestic Violence (the killer was not, because it seems it went unreported) it should be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for you to purchase a gun.

Anyone that wants to avoid these topics can take their Thoughts and Prayers and go **** themselves.

So being a homophobe is a reason to remove rights without due process? Or are we going to pass a law that makes it illegal to be a homophobe so we can adjudicate guys like this?

[livingminimal]

In the interest of factual accuracy. The rifle had the potential RATE of fire of 700rpm but that is not for a duration of a minute. The actual amount of ammunition that can be expended in 60 seconds is much, much lower, and is largely depended on the skill of the operator. Also, 700 rounds of 223 weighs in at around 40 pounds, was he actually carrying that?


Please save the fact-checking. The dude slaughtered 49 people (including purportedly, an armed security guard) with a gun designed to kill people and/or inflate egos. Thats all there is to it.

[livingminimal]

Telling people to go **** themselves is never a good look or called for here...Caps lock doesn't drive your point any harder. The combo of the two undermines any point you're trying to make...and I think you have some valid ones.

I get it, but I still seethe with anger for all of these incidents, especially Sandy Hook. And I boil over every time I ****ing read thoughts and prayers, or people who post **** like this isn't the time and place to talk about this issue. Bull****.

[livingminimal]

So being a homophobe is a reason to remove rights without due process? Or are we going to pass a law that makes it illegal to be a homophobe so we can adjudicate guys like this?

How on earth did you deduce that from what I said? Seriously?

These kinds of firearms should not be available to general public. Period. It's a public health crisis. We aren't even allowed to study the ****ing problem at the CDC!

If these guns are going to stay for sale, the ability to get them must be rigorous, difficult, and reserved for very few people.

[cadence90]

In the interest of factual accuracy. The rifle had the potential RATE of fire of 700rpm but that is not for a duration of a minute. The actual amount of ammunition that can be expended in 60 seconds is much, much lower, and is largely depended on the skill of the operator. Also, 700 rounds of 223 weighs in at around 40 pounds, was he actually carrying that?

This, I do find offensive. Not to me, nor to the forum, but to the victims and their family, friends, and acquaintances.

The only factual accuracy that is relevant at all is that this person killed over 50 people.

[djg21]

Then there is a problem with the federal law, and with the semantics.
A FL state senator was on the news last night, pleading for FL to have at least the same restrictions as CA. That is an issue.

A lot of money?
It seems to me one can buy an AR-15 and that SSAR-15 replacement stock for around $1000. Now one has a 900-round/minute killing machine, call it what one will. Why should that be legal in any sense at all?

Choke is correct. The Federal Assault Weapon Ban that was signed into law by the first President Clinton was allowed by the GOP to sunset in 2004.

[malcolm]

Telling people to go **** themselves is never a good look or called for here...Caps lock doesn't drive your point any harder. The combo of the two undermines any point you're trying to make...and I think you have some valid ones.

fire buddy a man of even temperament as always. Livingminimal no one here is your enemy or means you harm. Some have different opinions, that's life.

I tend to agree with everything you said no need to call names it just polarizes and diminishes any chance you may have had of swaying opinion.

As far as rate of fire goes cyclic rate is a technical term usually how many rounds downfield in one minute under ideal conditions, not having to load and not overheating it is also a moot point. Any good semi auto will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger and most are only limited by the capacity of the magazine. Even a moderately skilled operator as in knows how to load the weapon point it and pull the trigger can devastate a trapped population and there in lies the problem. 700 or 900 rounds per minute doesn't really matter at that point.

I don't think in most cases these weapons are necessarily ego stroking or do they make the owners necessarily "special forces want to be". I think almost anyone who has fired one will attest to the fact that they are fun to shoot.
My ability to entertain myself does not warrant having these unnecessary weapons being sold. I think it's been clearly proven that current regulation isn't working. The last two incidents if I'm not mistaken were with recently and legally purchased high capacity semi auto rifles. I think most reasonable sporting shooters can find entertainment in their chosen sport without these weapons.

[choke]

A lot of money?Legal full-auto weapons are expensive due to the law which prevents new ones from being registered....but legal ones aren't used in crimes.

It seems to me one can buy an AR-15 and that SSAR-15 replacement stock for around $1000. Now one has a 900-round/minute killing machine, call it what one will. Why should that be legal in any sense at all?As BobO said, that 900 rounds is theoretic. I have a fair amount of experience with machineguns and I would be amazed if an AR could get 200 down range in a minute. As for the legality of that stock...I have no idea on how ATF allows that.

The whole full-auto thing is a red herring though. And I've heard nothing about that rifle using the stock that you mentioned.

[choke]

Choke is correct. The Federal Assault Weapon Ban that was signed into law by the first President Clinton was allowed by the GOP to sunset in 2004.The Assault Weapons Ban had nothing to do with full-auto weapons.

[soulspinner]

we also let the cracks get bigger with policy decisions like letting the brady bill provisions expire.

Crazy people in this country have access to firearms unprecedented in the industrialized world.

+1

[zap]

Another terrible act of violence.



edit


How should he have been dealt with beyond preventing him from owning a gun?

BK


There is no way society can predict how individuals will act. Knowing this, society needs to regulate accordingly. The continued failure to do so is surprising.

[jmoore]

Thank you. Yes it would.

agreed.


I'm a gun guy, but I know exactly where this is heading and how it will end up.

[cadence90]

Legal full-auto weapons are expensive due to the law which prevents new ones from being registered....but legal ones aren't used in crimes.

As BobO said, that 900 rounds is theoretic. I have a fair amount of experience with machineguns and I would be amazed if an AR could get 200 down range in a minute. As for the legality of that stock...I have no idea on how ATF allows that.

The whole full-auto thing is a red herring though. And I've heard nothing about that rifle using the stock that you mentioned.
Apparently, the weapon used was (as are many others) modified with legal parts to give it rapid fire capability.
But is "legality" really the issue?
Is the exact number of rounds fired per minute really that important?
Fine, 200 in a minute, 100 in a minute, 50 in a minute. Is that somehow "better"?


***
This is all completely beside the point really, but I have 0 experience with machine guns, and I find all kinds of mentions on how to modify these rifles to allow for rapid fire, along with some pretty chilling videos that "enthusiasts" post to Youtube.

On sale for a mere $149.95. Lovely. :rolleyes:
http://www.slidefire.com/products/ar-platform/ssar-15-sbs

[Elefantino]

The time for increased control was after Sandy Hook. I had thought that the death of 20 little kids would have brought about change, but I realize now that nothing will change..

[Joel]

Folks,

We live in Orlando.

These are our town folks who are dead.

A little respect please.

[verticaldoug]

If you recall in 2010/2011 when the Arab Spring uprising started and people were saying social media was so important at spreading spontaneous democracies and bringing power to the people. Then they fizzled when the west could not bring proper support.

Over the past 6 years, the old dictators became pretty good at filtering and suppressing the social media and other forms of communication. So the arab spring is pretty much totally gone.

In the meantime. terrorist organizations saw how powerful social media could be and have harnessed it against the democracies. In the old days (80's/90's) we could at least focus on terror groups and hope for some containment. With social media and the power of religon it is so much harder. Terrorism will get more dangerous.

[Elefantino]

.

[nesteel]

This, I do find offensive. Not to me, nor to the forum, but to the victims and their family, friends, and acquaintances.

The only factual accuracy that is relevant at all is that this person killed over 50 people.

Maintaining the facts in the face of acts like this key. If the facts offend you, thats on you. I see no one here trying to minimize what this person chose to do. Playing loose and fast with the facts when emotions are high does no good, and just leads to disinformation being accepted as fact.

[witcombusa]

Well, we're getting used to it. Even here it took over 12 hrs for the first post.
And the discussion, as usual, has turned into the semantics of what an automatic rifle is.

After the Sandy Hook massacre Wayne LaPierre implied that an armed guard would have prevented or minimized the death of the kids. There was an armed guard in Orlando who engaged the shooter, however it did not stop or even lessen the massacre.

The time for increased control was after Sandy Hook. I had thought that the death of 20 little kids would have brought about change, but I realize now that nothing will change.

Well, Sandy Hook most certainly did NOT happen as advertised. If you haven't figured that out, then I'm not sure you ever will.
Still think that the box cutter gang flew planes into the Towers too? You are looking in the wrong direction.
This will stop when people wake up

[BobO]

This, I do find offensive. Not to me, nor to the forum, but to the victims and their family, friends, and acquaintances.

The only factual accuracy that is relevant at all is that this person killed over 50 people.

All factual accuracy is relevant in debate. When things get intense is when it is most important to stick to the fundamentals. In debate demonstrable fact is a fundamental.

Maintaining the facts in the face of acts like this key. If the facts offend you, thats on you. I see no one here trying to minimize what this person chose to do. Playing loose and fast with the facts when emotions are high does no good, and just leads to disinformation being accepted as fact.

Apologies, you beat me to it.

[saab2000]

Well, Sandy Hook most certainly did NOT happen as advertised. If you haven't figured that out, then I'm not sure you ever will.
Still think that the box cutter gang flew planes into the Towers too? You are looking in the wrong direction.
This will stop when people wake up

How does it feel to be the only one in the know?

If these events did not happen 'as advertised', please fill us in on what exactly did happen.

[BobO]

Apparently, the weapon used was (as are many others) modified with legal parts to give it rapid fire capability.

The modification to fully automatic isn't legal in any state without the correct permits.

But is "legality" really the issue?

Yes, it is. We need to have laws that are moral and defensible.

[cadence90]

All factual accuracy is relevant in debate. When things get intense is when it is most important to stick to the fundamentals. In debate demonstrable fact is a fundamental.



Apologies, you beat me to it.

Except that some facts are more relevant than others, no?

The rate issue, etc., besides being irrelevant in my opinion, is actually is not a fact in this case, since the number of rounds fired per minute is not known.

It does not matter at what rate the killer's gun was firing, and to somehow imply that this is important is indeed offensive to the victims.
The fact is he killed 50 people, and that is not disputable.

I knew on page 1 that I should not participate in this thread. It is really sad.

[BobO]

Except that some facts are more relevant than others, no?

The rate issue, etc., besides being irrelevant in my opinion, is actually is not a fact in this case, since the number of rounds fired per minute is not known.

It does not matter at what rate the killer's gun was firing, and to somehow imply that this is important is indeed offensive to the victims.
The fact is he killed 50 people, and that is not disputable.

I knew on page 1 that I should not participate in this thread. It is really sad.

Here's the thing, it was a fundamental lack of understanding of legislators that led to the first AWB. There were gigantic flaws and gaps in that law as a result. Try not to view it from the point of view of raw emotion, look at it from, how do we go forward from here.

[cadence90]

The modification to fully automatic isn't legal in any state without the correct permits.



Yes, it is. We need to have laws that are moral and defensible.

OK. I'm finished.

[bluto]

Still think that the box cutter gang flew planes into the Towers too? You are looking in the wrong direction.
This will stop when people wake up

Wait........what??

Please share your insights.......

[fa63]

Let me take a shot at the conspiracy theories being suggested by witcombusa:

- This shooting was orchestrated by the government to take away everyone's guns. Just like Sandy Hook was.

- 9/11 events were also orchestrated by the government to justify attacking the Middle East (for their oil), and to take away our right to privacy.

[Keith A]

I haven't had the chance to read this whole discussion, but I've received a complaint about this. Discussing gun control on this forum never goes anywhere...so let's not go there.

This was a horrific event in a town that is only an hour's drive away from me. Please be respectful of the deceased, injured and their families...otherwise, we will need to close this discussion.

[ben rabin]

Agree. Shut it down.

[bthornt]

I always wonder, whose mind do you think you're going to change when you make your arguments for or against gun ownership?

[Keith A]

Agree. Shut it down.Done.