Tips for learning to corner fast on road surfaces?

[quauhnahuac]

I feel like I keep falling behind through the corners in crits. I know the basics, pedal/brake before the turn, inside pedal up through the apex, lean, weight the outside drop bar.

maybe I just don't have the cojones to dive into the corners, or I'm missing something here. but after corners it seems like everyone else gains several feet on me and I have to push to catch up. over the course of a crit this extra energy usage is bad.

tips? practice suggestions?

[benb]

Motorcycle training would help a ton. That costs a lot. Barring that a lot of the motorcycle textbooks also cover cornering really well. No one bothers talking about watts in those so they really spend the time on corner. :)

[benb]

deleted

[Joxster]

Make sure your medical insurance is up to date, then go for it. Chicks dig scars :p Go riding with some who can corner well and ride a short course over and over again to help you gain confidence.

[GregL]

My team hosted a clinic for new racers earlier this spring. One of the instructors was a very good Cat 1 crit racer. We talked through the basics of cornering in a classroom session, then moved to a parking lot to practice cornering. The instructors led the students through a series of corners, ramping up the speed as the students learned the basics. It was amazing to watch the skill levels rise over the timespan of the clinic. As others have said, find a good crit racer willing to teach and follow him/her.

Greg

[EDS]

I feel like I keep falling behind through the corners in crits. I know the basics, pedal/brake before the turn, inside pedal up through the apex, lean, weight the outside drop bar.

maybe I just don't have the cojones to dive into the corners, or I'm missing something here. but after corners it seems like everyone else gains several feet on me and I have to push to catch up. over the course of a crit this extra energy usage is bad.

tips? practice suggestions?

You are likely either breaking more than others before entering the turn or not pedaling through the turn (or stopping pedaling sooner before the turn) where others are pedaling.

[bikinchris]

No, weight outside pedal and inside bar. Keep your head up and vertical and your eyes should be looking where you want to go. I bet you are braking too hard or long.
Don't forget that your bike can corner harder than you have the guts to push it.

[stephenmarklay]

Motorcycle training would help a ton. That costs a lot. Barring that a lot of the motorcycle textbooks also cover cornering really well. No one bothers talking about watts in those so they really spend the time on cornering. :)


I was thinking this too :)

It may help not to focus on the corner. You want to look where you want to be so when you enter that corner you are already looking at the spot you want to be on exit. That will help things feel less frantic and also your body goes where you looks so you will have better lines.

[benb]

Slow (any braking done before turning in)
Look (Look where you need to go)
Lean (Push on the bar on the side you want to turn - counter steer)
Roll (pedal again as soon as possible)

Do these steps deliberately and slowly until they are ingrained.

Look up counter steering.

If you ever take moto training the instructors will be telling you to twist your neck around till you think your head is going to pop off. The look part is really really important, especially on bike where the bike doesn't weigh anything and the whole system tends to follow your head.

"body follows head" is a big thing in tons and tons of activities. I was a swim instructor, we spent tons of time on head position there.

[shovelhd]

Practice early apex, mid apex, and late apex strategies to perfect your skills but don't force your way of cornering in the middle of the field in a race. That's a recipe for disaster.

Speed control may be an issue but you may also not be fighting for position. You need to pick your wheel to follow and defend it by making space for yourself and denying space for others. This is hard to describe but easy to teach in person. If you can find a good racing clinic in your area maybe they can show you. If you race timid you will finish timid.

[benb]

Different Apex strategies rarely apply in races... no one is ever using up most of their lean angle, and your line is often forced. We have so many choices of line and almost never have enough speed for the line to matter. Big mountain descents are about the only place it matters and there it's often cause we don't have enough brake. Even a single auto lane is enormously wide for a bike or motorcycle.

Also barely any of this matters.. if you're falling behind you're not up in the front. If you're in the back your cornering is being dictated by the riders in front of you.. if you can't get yourself to the front before the corners you can't apply superior cornering to stay there without slamming into the riders in front of you who are slowing down excessively. Much of the yo-yo effect in cornering is because of that... guys in the front slowing down too much, guys behind them have to slow down even more to avoid hitting them, and the effect stacks up from front to back of a group. Superior cornering makes a bigger difference at the front or if you're off the front.

[shovelhd]

Your first and last sentences contradict each other. I agree with the last sentence. Cornering capability makes a significant difference when the field is lined out, you are on the front, you are attacking, or you are off the front. It's how breaks are started and gaps are built, all else being equal. Not so much while in the field but it is key to conserving energy.

[benb]

I was assuming from the OP that he was in a mid/back of pack situation, if that's not the case sorry.

If things are strung out then this matters.. the key thing is whether or not he's slowing down because the person in front of him is forcing him to, or whether or not he is misjudging and slowing down more than the guy in front of him. If it's the former then it's important to work on being able to move up to be in front of the guy who is going to slow down too much. If it's the latter then it your own cornering that needs to be worked on.

[Bob Ross]

weight the outside drop bar.

Yikes! No.

No, weight outside pedal and inside bar.

Yes.



Don't forget that your bike can corner harder than you have the guts to push it.

^^^This. QFT

[rustychisel]

Oh hell. For some reason discussions of cornering bikes always turn into a whirlpool of contradictory words and bad ideas badly explained. They just do. And then someone introduces the idea of motorcycle cornering, which is way way way different and not very relevant.

To the OP; ride with someone who's fast through corners and get some ideas from them, then practise practise practise.

[If for example, you don't know where pedal strike will occur and what lean you can get on the bike, and how to recover when you strike, then you still have things to learn and practise. If you're braking and losing position, ditto. If you're scared of proximity in the corner, then you need to practise and become accustomed to other riders pressing close]

[Mzilliox]

going fast around corners is the only way to learn to go fast around corners. once you fall a couple times, its good motivation not to fall again.
when descending in SF on one of the big hills, i took one corner a bit fast and tires skipped as i took the turn. kept myself upright, but thats was a good data point, too fast!

otherwise you just gotta go for it.:beer:

[54ny77]

just watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmNXCJt7K3Q

;)

[Lovetoclimb]

Echoing what some have said above: inquire with your local clubs/teams or just friends who you consider to be good at it to host some clinics. Better cornering benefits everyone IMO so long as they don't use the new found confidence to race like jerks.

I too suffer from a lack of cornering confidence, typically losing minutes on long mountain descents and critical seconds in technical crits or cross courses. That was the primary reason I stopped racing because I was just not willing to take the risks and never took the opportunities to "practice" necessary skills.

[David Kirk]

One can only corner quickly if they use proper countersteering technique. That said trying to learn proper countersteering while on a group ride is near impossible. It's so much better to find an empty parking lot where one doesn't need to worry about other riders or cars and to give it a go there. Ideally you set up a corner using waterbottle or existing marks on the pavement than then practice that same exact turn over and over again. When it clicks you will feel it.

Make sure to practice both rights and lefts. You will benefit from paying attention to the feeling of weight on you inside hand and outside foot. Monitor that feeling and see how it relates to the line the bike carves and the feeling of stability.

If you have a cross bike and a hard and smooth grassy area you can do the same thing and would no doubt feel more confident in pushing your limits on a softer surface.

It will take practice but the practice will pay off for sure.

Have fun learning.

dave

[Pastashop]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EGXtG5_-jJA/VUpeSlDFzpI/AAAAAAAAGGM/n9egQod32Do/s1600/jobst%2Bbrandt%2Bavocet%2Btires.jpg

[Hindmost]

...when descending in SF...

Do you live near hills with technical descents? This is a great way to practice speed and cornering technique on one's own.

[Hindmost]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EGXtG5_-jJA/VUpeSlDFzpI/AAAAAAAAGGM/n9egQod32Do/s1600/jobst%2Bbrandt%2Bavocet%2Btires.jpg

For example:

This is coming off the top of Haskins Hill, west-bound to Pescadero, a much-cycled, South SF Peninsula route.

[Mark McM]

Before piling on a bunch of suggestions, it would probably be good to find the nature of the problem. Does the OP have a problem with high speed cornering in general, or is the issue cornering in a group?

The OP mentions "braking before the corner". In my experience, most flat-land crit. corners can be taken at full speed, if the road is open. Braking is typically only required if you are in or behind a group that slows up for the corners (usually because the group changes shape and narrows down for the corners.) Even here, good technique/tactics can minimize the braking required. So, the question is, does the OP have trouble taking corners at full speed, or is he slowing due to being hesitant in a pack?

[nate2351]

This sounds more like the OP has trouble with pack dynamics than cornering.
Brakes are a last resort for slowing down in a crit. In flat crits you can slow down for the corners from coasting.
The best way to hold position is to focus on keeping as close to the wheel in front of you as possible going into the corner. You only need to slow down as much as to not hit that wheel.

[cinco]

If you know your bike well, you should be able to pedal through many corners. Stopping to weight your outer leg may not be the fasted option.

Andy in Houston

[djg21]

No, weight outside pedal and inside bar. Keep your head up and vertical and your eyes should be looking where you want to go. I bet you are braking too hard or long.
Don't forget that your bike can corner harder than you have the guts to push it.

This. You turn on a motorcycle by countersteering (pressuring inside bar so the front wheel is is facing away from apex of turn and the bike is leaning into the corner). This works for very high speed turns on a bicycle, like on a descent, but for most corners in a Crit, you can steer rather than countersteer. The bike remains more upright, you shift your body to the inside of the bike by sliding on the seat if necessary, and you pressure the outside bar so the front wheel is directed towards the turn. This will allow you to pedal through the turn and maintain a more constant speed, rather than having to brake then sprint out of every corner.

It helps to be looking way ahead too. If your eyes are on the exit of the corner, you will be less apt to scallop your turn and have to scrub speed. If you watch the riders 5 or more places up the road, you will see their surges before they reach you and you will be able to start your wind up a bit earlier and moderate your effort.

[jdhansen63]

Check out the video on railing turns. Applies to the road too.

http://www.diamondback.com/skills-shop

[wallymann]

im assuming you already know how to steer a bike into corners and are comfortable at high speed in a group. a couple things that have helped thru the years:
1. keep your head up and level (note how jobst's bike is leaned over but his head is essentially still oriented vertically).
2. look forward to where you intend to go, not down in front of your wheel where you already are.
3. reinforce the hand-eye coordination of counter-steering. if you really want to rail in a left hand turn, you'll be pushing on the bars with your left hand.
4. practice.

[quauhnahuac]

Yikes! No.

About weighting the outside bar a little more than the inside, I saw it a while ago when I was reading getting ready for the crit season, and found it again here (http://cyclingtips.com/2014/01/how-to-become-a-better-criterium-racer/), why do you disagree with this advice:

PRESSURE ON THE HANDLE BARS

I was taught to put pressure through both drops but slightly more through the outside drop. The best way to explain this is to consider where the centre of gravity is when you drop a plumb bob from each of your drops.

When a bike is leaning to the left, and you position a plumb bob from the right drop, the plump bob falls almost directly down through the tyre. This is what you want – downforce through the tyre to help it grip the most.

Putting a plumb bob from the left drop shows the centre of gravity is out to the left of the rider, so if turning left and more weight was given to the left drop, it could cause the front wheel to wash out.

[msl819]

No, weight outside pedal and inside bar. Keep your head up and vertical and your eyes should be looking where you want to go. I bet you are braking too hard or long.
Don't forget that your bike can corner harder than you have the guts to push it.

True statement... its the road surface that often messes with my mind. I trust my bike. I don't the gravel, pine straw,etc that often litters our roads.

[velomonkey]

And then someone introduces the idea of motorcycle cornering, which is way way way different and not very relevant.



Gona have to disagree with that statement.

John Tomac. dude trained on a motorcycle all the time (and his son is killing it in moto). Tomac was also world Cross Country Champ - down hill champ and national crit champ.

Go watch the isle of man TT. It's basically one big crit for bikes that average a lap speed of 133 an hour.

[HenryA]

This sounds more like the OP has trouble with pack dynamics than cornering.
Brakes are a last resort for slowing down in a crit. In flat crits you can slow down for the corners from coasting.
The best way to hold position is to focus on keeping as close to the wheel in front of you as possible going into the corner. You only need to slow down as much as to not hit that wheel.

^^ This ^^

Stay off the brakes.

Every deceleration will be followed by an acceleration. That "slinky" will kill you as you try to constantly keep up. You, and all the others who are on the brakes create the slinky.

Pro/1/2 races generally have less slinky effect because they know better than to get in that fight and know how to not create it. Its a surprising part of the speed difference from the lower cat. races. Its also part of the reason that a smallish break can get away and stay away.

[JimmyTango]

As a fair weather motorcyclist and a everyrideisarace road and cx rider, I think that "cornering" on a moto as compared to on a road bike needs to be discussed in two distinct terms: line selection vs body/bike handling.

Yes, taking the line selection stradegy learned from moto riding and applying it to cycling (road or cx) is surely relevant and useful in getting better at cornering on a bike.

But, I would argue that the body / bike handling techniques used on a moto really has very little in common with cornering on a bike (at least in practical terms)... the difference in power/weight/brake power/body position/tire traction between motorcycles vs bikes are great enough to not REALLY translate.

[Nooch]

not that this video will teach you how to corner, but it's fun to watch and displays lots of good cornering :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyJGwwm8-2k

[OtayBW]

As mentioned above- Countersteering:
http://www.seanbujold.com/coaching/Cornering.pdf

[BobO]

As a fair weather motorcyclist and a everyrideisarace road and cx rider, I think that "cornering" on a moto as compared to on a road bike needs to be discussed in two distinct terms: line selection vs body/bike handling.

Yes, taking the line selection stradegy learned from moto riding and applying it to cycling (road or cx) is surely relevant and useful in getting better at cornering on a bike.

But, I would argue that the body / bike handling techniques used on a moto really has very little in common with cornering on a bike (at least in practical terms)... the difference in power/weight/brake power/body position/tire traction between motorcycles vs bikes are great enough to not REALLY translate.

There is also the similarity in that the roll center of both is located at the interface with the road. The major difference between the two is the distance between the roll center and the center of gravity, obviously being much, much higher on the bicycle because of the riders weight being the majority rather than the machine. The distance between the RC and the CG determine the amount of load being transferred during the cornering sequence. The physics of the fore aft balance is similar as well. The basic physics are the same for the purposes of analyzing the forces involved. Obviously as you stated there are practical differences between the two.

[weisan]

not that this video will teach you how to corner, but it's fun to watch and displays lots of good cornering :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyJGwwm8-2k


Wow...most mortals would eat it at *that* corner.
https://vimeo.com/170078843/9c80e46a2b

[benb]

The only real difference is the % of the total weight that is rider vs bike..

You counter steer to initiate a turn, that might be why there is confusion about weighting the outside bar. If your bike geo/fit is such that your bike wants to "fall into the turn" then you are going to need to hold pressure on the outside bar to hold your line. IMO a good handling moto/bicycle will not require that, it will turn in and hold a line with a minimum of rider input.

All it really comes down to is turn the wheel to the left (push on right bar) to lean to the right, turn the wheel to the right (push on left bar) to lean to the left. The effect is subtle on road bikes because the bike is so light and the bar forces are so low but it is absolutely there at even flatland crit speeds. You only really feel the resistance on the bar at mountain descent speeds whereas you can feel them at really low (10mph?) speeds on motorcycles.

[Bob Ross]

why do you disagree with this advice:

PRESSURE ON THE HANDLE BARS

I was taught to put pressure through both drops but slightly more through the outside drop. The best way to explain this is to consider where the centre of gravity is when you drop a plumb bob from each of your drops.

When a bike is leaning to the left, and you position a plumb bob from the right drop, the plump bob falls almost directly down through the tyre. This is what you want – downforce through the tyre to help it grip the most.

Putting a plumb bob from the left drop shows the centre of gravity is out to the left of the rider, so if turning left and more weight was given to the left drop, it could cause the front wheel to wash out.


First time I have ever heard that even remotely suggested. I'm sitting at my desk, not on my bike, right now, so I can't tell you whether I honestly "disagree" with that advice ...but just thinking about that in my head, the justification used -- the plumb bob thought-experiment -- strikes me as more of a parlor trick than a legitimate reason why it should work. Because you're not pushing down on the bar in the direction that a plumb bob would hang.

Or, more succinctly: If it did work, counter-steering wouldn't work as well as it does.

[dustyrider]

Bicycles are a visually guided machine much like motorcycles, cars to a degree, skis, etc. any athlete that pushes visually guided machines to their limits knows that mental commitment can often times be more important than physical skills when it comes to success. (Same might be said about all athletic pursuits.) Acquiring the physical skills necessary to make mental commitment "easier" can come from repetition. I think pro athletes are often times gifted with one or the other. Those gifted with physical skills have to learn mental determination. Others have enough mental stamina to push their physical limits. The true greats seem to be gifted with both.

My adivice amongst the rest: Practice your turns in the safest possible way pushing yourself to your limit. You can't know your limit with out breaking it. Mitigate the risk in some way so you can continue to practice. Look where you want to go. And lastly, I've never failed to learn something when I've followed someone else...though I've learned the most from my own mistakes.

Have fun!

[shovelhd]

I bet this guy corners just fine all by himself, but rides too conservatively in a fast field.

[weisan]

Best in the business....

Paolo Savoldelli
Peter Sagan
Philippe Gilbert
Vincenzo Nibali
Cadel Evans
Fabian Cancellera

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bEw7eXizLg

[carpediemracing]

I feel like I keep falling behind through the corners in crits. I know the basics, pedal/brake before the turn, inside pedal up through the apex, lean, weight the outside drop bar.

maybe I just don't have the cojones to dive into the corners, or I'm missing something here. but after corners it seems like everyone else gains several feet on me and I have to push to catch up. over the course of a crit this extra energy usage is bad.

tips? practice suggestions?

As mentioned before it's important to clarify if you're in the group when this is happening.

Some of the basics are guidelines, meant to be "safe", sort of how a posted speed limit is usually very conservative relative to what's normally possible in day time on that road.

So... pedal/brake before turn? Okay, usually. However I regularly lightly brake in a turn, sometimes sort of hard if something weird happens in front of me. I will also pedal deep into or very early out of a turn.

Inside pedal up? Yes, generally speaking, but again, if you know your bike, your pedal clearance, then you can pedal through most typical crit turns. Tight 180s, super fast corners, maybe not, but a 90 degree turn at 25-30 mph, almost always yes.

To know when you can veer a bit from the "rules" you need to know and do some things:
1. Know your pedal strike angle. Lean the bike over with the pedal at the bottom of the pedal stroke on the inside. Right the pedal so it's not upside down. See how far the bike is leaning when the pedal is on the ground. Stand behind the bike, see how far it's leaning. If you can, straddle the bike. Get an idea of how far over it is. It's really far over.

Next, in somewhat controlled situations, try pedaling through turns. Ideally you should be behind someone that is pedaling through a turn and you just copy them. If there is no such rider around then be at the back or on the very outside (where if you crash you don't take anyone out) and pedal into each turn. If you dig a pedal don't freak out, the bike will usually catch itself. You can get quite a pedal hit, lift the rear wheel pretty high, and not have anything happen.

2. Get your weight on the bars. If you have control over the front wheel you have control over the bike's direction. I have hit my pedal many times, often resulting in a rear wheel lift. My bike continues on its trajectory though because I have a lot of weight on the front wheel, more than most people I think. My hands are basically over the front axle and I slide forward on the saddle when I corner to put even more weight on the front wheel. If you have a short stem or it's very high relative to the saddle (i.e. not much drop) then it'll be very hard for you to weight the front wheel.

When you don't weight the front wheel it feels like the front wheel has little traction and is going to wash out. When you have good weight on the front wheel it feels like it's on rails, like your bars are bolted to the ground.

3. Corner on the drops (in general). For flat or even downhill cornering the drops are the best default position. You have brake control, shift control, and if you get jostled really hard (by a pothole or another rider) your hands will, by default, stay on the bars. If you corner on the hoods and you hit a bad pothole or you have to brake hard or someone bumps you hard your hands may slip over the brake lever. I was next to a very good Junior racer (he would win National Cross that winter, National Crits the following sprint, and follow it up with 3 more titles). He's an excellent, excellent bike handler. He is excellent in the field. And he was riding very confidently on the hoods when the guy in front of him rolled a tire. I was next to the Junior so the guy that rolled his tire basically slid into my path. I was on the drops. The Junior was on his hoods. I could swerve hard, even resisting the crasher's bike hitting my neck really hard. The (extremely talented) Junior? He couldn't turn or brake hard enough and went over the crasher in slow motion, breaking his collarbone. I'm definitely not a better bike handler than him but faced with basically the same situation I was able to deal with it and he broke his collarbone.

If your drops are too low or too far out then they won't be comfortable. If they're comfortable then ask yourself if longer or lower would be okay - as you develop your cycling strength/muscles you'll find that a longer/lower position is more comfortable, faster, and gives you better control. Go too far and it's not good (I just tried a slightly longer position and after one ride outside I switched back). If you find yourself going into the drops by default that's great. If you're always on the hoods or the tops then see if it's because the drops are in the wrong place.

4. Finally, see where you're losing ground in the corners. Is it through the whole corner? (typically coasting while others are pedaling, or stopping pedaling too early) Is it at the beginning? (braking too much) At the end? (not accelerating early or hard enough).

I did a series of clips in 2014 when I wasn't super fit. I did the B races on Tues Nights, races meant for Cat 3-4-5s. This meant that as a 3 I'd be racing with 5s, and for the first time in eons I'd be racing with beginner racers. It was very interesting.

First clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9n4DvYG7Pg
Second clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaXskjgLy8o
Third clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGrceE6nZn8

In one of them there's a cornering error that I point out. I think it's about 3:00 into the second clip ("Aaron wins"). I'm looking at one of my drafts, my internet connection is such that I can't actually watch the clips right now. At any rate there's a wheel that brakes too much and gaps himself off. Then I go into a turn with a gap but because I don't slow the gap closes on its own. The rider in front of me is pedaling through the turn as well. You can watch the above clips as a guide since the racers I'm helping are basically Cat 4s on their way to upgrading to Cat 3 (they all started the first clip as a 4 and by next season they were all Cat 3s).

Hope this helps.

[djg21]

True statement... its the road surface that often messes with my mind. I trust my bike. I don't the gravel, pine straw,etc that often litters our roads.

This isn't an issue in most crits. If corners on crit courses are unswept or in poor condition, it's race you may consider passing on.

[quauhnahuac]

As mentioned above- Countersteering:
http://www.seanbujold.com/coaching/Cornering.pdf

Hey I read through this. Does countersteering involve actually turning the wheel AWAY from the turn, or is it just weighting the outside leg and leaning into the turn without actually turning the handlebars? I watched a moto video and the moto was turning his wheel left for a moment before turning right as an example of countersteering, but the pdf you linked seems to suggest it's just leaning into a turn.

[quauhnahuac]

Oh and to clarify for everyone: This is in a GROUP. So, we'll all go into the turn, of course you cant do much to choose a line youre just kind of left with what line youre left with. so we all go into the turn, I guess Im looking elsewhere and exiting the turn I see the person in front of me whose wheel I was just on how has like 5 feet on me. I guess this is a problem with my pack riding though Im not uncomfortable at all in pack riding.

[OtayBW]

Hey I read through this. Does countersteering involve actually turning the wheel AWAY from the turn, or is it just weighting the outside leg and leaning into the turn without actually turning the handlebars? I watched a moto video and the moto was turning his wheel left for a moment before turning right as an example of countersteering, but the pdf you linked seems to suggest it's just leaning into a turn.
Yes - to both, as I learned from reading some of Davis Phinney stuff years ago. It is just a quick turn away, just to initiate the movement, and then it's weighting the bar firmly and steadily on the inside of the turn, and the pedal on the outside. Additionally, you position the inside knee up towards the TT, not outward in the direction of the turn as you often see.

The degree of pressure on the bar and outward on the pedal is what controls the turn. Personally, I think the quick turn part is not as essential to the whole movement unless you really want to dive in quick. You can still countersteer through a turn in a group, but you have to watch out for trying to initiate a quick movement when things are unpredictable or if you have to follow someone else's line.

[benb]

You do indeed turn the bar away from the turn.

You already do this, no matter what superstitious cornering method you think you're actually doing, every kid instinctively learns to do it without realizing it. You can become more effective when you are conscious of the effort.

Keith Code's moto school apparently has a motorcycle with 2 sets of handlebars. One is disconnected from the fork. They put people on it who think they can turn the bike without counter steering. :)

Code's books are good reads.. one of the big things about the top pro tour descenders, top MTB guys, top motorcycle riders, top race car drivers, etc.. is they pick up on the visual cues that guide their actions much much faster.

Their example was again from moto but applies really well to MTB or criteriums etc.. where you are repeating a course. Us mortals might need to ride hundreds of laps to master all the visual cues that you use to know when to brake, when to turn your head to look through the corner, when to counter steer, when to start applying more power in the middle/exit of corner, etc.. those guys who are the best bike/car handlers in the world basically instinctively figure it all out in the first couple practice laps. You stick a world class driver/rider out on a brand new race track (to them) and they are up to a world class pace in the first session. The rest of us might need years of practice on that same track. I think it really applies to MTB in particular. Road is a little different since sometimes this stuff doesn't factor into the race results as much, and other types of road races people will perhaps only go down each section of road once. I haven't done high speed car instruction but there is tons of stuff in motorcycle track instruction in terms of gauging everything by visual markers along the track.

[verbs4us]

One tip from the Department of Stupid Stuff.
Years ago, on a brilliant October morning, I took off for a ride on a route I knew by heart. It was 38 degrees. At the bottom of a hill was a nice turn and the start of a 5-mile climb. The apex of the curve was in the shade. I entered the turn as I had hundreds of times and this time the front wheel just lost all grip and I went down like Charlie Brown dodging a line drive. One shoe over here another there, helmet smashed and brains scrambled. I had no idea where I was, but knew my name. I got back on the bike and wobbled home but did not remember climbing the hill. Amnesia is scary. Moral of the story: it was 32 degree or less in the shade, with just enough of a veneer of frost to make things interesting.

[djg21]

Hey I read through this. Does countersteering involve actually turning the wheel AWAY from the turn, or is it just weighting the outside leg and leaning into the turn without actually turning the handlebars? I watched a moto video and the moto was turning his wheel left for a moment before turning right as an example of countersteering, but the pdf you linked seems to suggest it's just leaning into a turn.

If you are pressuring your bar with your inside hand, you are subtlety directing the front wheel to the outside, slightly away the direction of your turn. Hence you are counter-steering, as opposed to steering. You won't really have to think about which way the wheel is pointing as it happens pretty naturally. You probably countersteer now, and it's the steering technique that feels more unnatural and takes some practice.

[false_Aest]

In most Cat 5,4,3 races I found that the fastest way through a corner (if you're mid-pack) is to follow the line that no one else is taking. In other words, avoid the accordion.

Hell, for the Brentwood GP, you can go from off-the-back to top 3rd by taking the far outside on the turns at the bottom-right of the image.

http://www.brentwoodgrandprix.com/uploads/6/6/5/0/6650243/1432159749.png

[carpediemracing]

^ when taking lines no one else is taking remember to not take others with you. To be more precise you can take lines no one else is taking as long as it's outside or inside of the field. If you're in the field you shouldn't take a line no one else is taking.

One year at the spring series someone jumped up the left side just as the road curved right, moved all the way right to get to the inside/right curb, then as the road curved left he moved all the way back to the left. Literally from one curb to the other curb. He managed to take out or delay about 1/2 of the field on his own, probably 40-50 riders. It was the finish and there were a lot of people on the ground. Luckily it was all just road rash.

[Chris]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but leaving a little bit of a gap before the corner and then not braking immediately before or through (God-forbid) can do a lot to prevent the accordion effect if you find yourself too far back. The advanced technique if you're stuck at the back for awhile is to tailgun until there is a lull and then make your move to the front and stay there. Much easier said than done. Here's and expose (http://manualforspeed.com/criteriums/mcnellies-group-blue-dome-criterium/)written by a good friend after interviewing my teammate about the subject.

[bikinchris]

About weighting the outside bar a little more than the inside, I saw it a while ago when I was reading getting ready for the crit season, and found it again here (http://cyclingtips.com/2014/01/how-to-become-a-better-criterium-racer/), why do you disagree with this advice:

PRESSURE ON THE HANDLE BARS

I was taught to put pressure through both drops but slightly more through the outside drop. The best way to explain this is to consider where the centre of gravity is when you drop a plumb bob from each of your drops.

When a bike is leaning to the left, and you position a plumb bob from the right drop, the plump bob falls almost directly down through the tyre. This is what you want – downforce through the tyre to help it grip the most.

Putting a plumb bob from the left drop shows the centre of gravity is out to the left of the rider, so if turning left and more weight was given to the left drop, it could cause the front wheel to wash out.

Centrifugal force will move that weight out away from the corner you are making. If you drop that same plumb bob WHILE you are cornering, you will see that it will not fall down, but toward the outside of the turn.
Therefore weighting the inside handlebar is weighting the tire no matter what speed your corner is being ridden.

In your example, the plumb bob from the right drop during cornering would not be straight down but the force of cornering would make it hit the road on the right side of the tire. A plumb bob from the left bar drop would hit the road under the tire.

[quauhnahuac]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but leaving a little bit of a gap before the corner and then not braking immediately before or through (God-forbid) can do a lot to prevent the accordion effect if you find yourself too far back. The advanced technique if you're stuck at the back for awhile is to tailgun until there is a lull and then make your move to the front and stay there. Much easier said than done. Here's and expose (http://manualforspeed.com/criteriums/mcnellies-group-blue-dome-criterium/)written by a good friend after interviewing my teammate about the subject.

This expose is very funny on tailgunning. in part from experience. last season there was a late-season crit series. it was the second to last race in this latter-season series. i wasn't feeling well so just said "f it" and told everyone i was just going to take it easy and I had given up on the series. so I sit at the back of the group, as far back as possible without falling off the back. I rode upright and just rode the wheel of whoever was second to last taking it as absolutely as easy as possible intending to just roll through the finish and use it as a personal development training ride.

bell lap and i see a pretty good path to the front, i felt totally fresh from just hanging out and keeping my power down. so i took the path and just gassed it with about 1/4 mile to go. ended up taking everyone by surprise and created a huge break. only one person followed, and that was the only person who passed me.

i ended up getting second, my best result of the season. people still talk a year later about that.

[quauhnahuac]

Centrifugal force will move that weight out away from the corner you are making. If you drop that same plumb bob WHILE you are cornering, you will see that it will not fall down, but toward the outside of the turn.
Therefore weighting the inside handlebar is weighting the tire no matter what speed your corner is being ridden.

thanks and i tried some corners tonight. I did it the "new" way by pushing down the inside bar, pulling slightly on the outside, weighting the outside pedal down, and pulling weight off the saddle. cornered very fast and sharp.

when I changed to the "old" way, I was slower.

when I switched from the new way to the old way mid corner, my bike practically jumped to be more upright. really crazy how much difference this small thing made in the speed and lean (not purple drank) I had in the corner.

anyways, now to just commit to muscle memory...

[BobbyJones]

4 pages containing information on how to corner on a bike? To someone who races crits?

Sheesh.

[purplecu22]

you need to get Keith code Twist of the grip Vol 1 and 2. I ride MC, best books ever for learning how to corner at 100 mph, I can out corner 99% of people on a bicycle because of this book.

[rustychisel]

you need to get Keith code Twist of the grip Vol 1 and 2. I ride MC, best books ever for learning how to corner at 100 mph, I can out corner 99% of people on a bicycle because of this book.

Well that's settled that, then.

Now can we have the thread about "what's your fastestest speed ever on a bike?"? ; )

[carpediemracing]

This expose is very funny on tailgunning. in part from experience. last season there was a late-season crit series. it was the second to last race in this latter-season series. i wasn't feeling well so just said "f it" and told everyone i was just going to take it easy and I had given up on the series. so I sit at the back of the group, as far back as possible without falling off the back. I rode upright and just rode the wheel of whoever was second to last taking it as absolutely as easy as possible intending to just roll through the finish and use it as a personal development training ride.

bell lap and i see a pretty good path to the front, i felt totally fresh from just hanging out and keeping my power down. so i took the path and just gassed it with about 1/4 mile to go. ended up taking everyone by surprise and created a huge break. only one person followed, and that was the only person who passed me.

i ended up getting second, my best result of the season. people still talk a year later about that.

I basically always race like this, mostly from need.

[shovelhd]

Oh and to clarify for everyone: This is in a GROUP. So, we'll all go into the turn, of course you cant do much to choose a line youre just kind of left with what line youre left with. so we all go into the turn, I guess Im looking elsewhere and exiting the turn I see the person in front of me whose wheel I was just on how has like 5 feet on me. I guess this is a problem with my pack riding though Im not uncomfortable at all in pack riding.

But you can, and that's my point. You should be looking 4-5 riders ahead and anticipating when you should put the power on before you let a gap open. If you make yourself a little space on the outside before the turn you will carry more speed into the turn. If you let a bike length gap open in front of you, someone is going to fill it, and now you're going backwards. This is where you have to learn to defend your space. You can avoid most of it by anticipating and not letting the gap open in the first place.

Tailgunning is another thing altogether. I've used it many times to rest at the back of the field. It's a useful tactic.

[benb]

you need to get Keith code Twist of the grip Vol 1 and 2. I ride MC, best books ever for learning how to corner at 100 mph, I can out corner 99% of people on a bicycle because of this book.

Heh.. great minds think alike. I mentioned those books on page 1 I think.

Counter steering has got everyone in a tizzy and no one has even mentioned "traction pie" or "$1 worth of cognitive focus".

[HenryA]

But you can, and that's my point. You should be looking 4-5 riders ahead and anticipating when you should put the power on before you let a gap open. If you make yourself a little space on the outside before the turn you will carry more speed into the turn. If you let a bike length gap open in front of you, someone is going to fill it, and now you're going backwards. This is where you have to learn to defend your space. You can avoid most of it by anticipating and not letting the gap open in the first place.

Tailgunning is another thing altogether. I've used it many times to rest at the back of the field. It's a useful tactic.

Especially the part about "make yourself a little space on the outside". When you do this you're not trapped by the rider in front of you. You stop being involved in disruption through braking. You can slide right by a rider in front who is slowing. It requires no additional physical effort on your part. Just recognition and forethought.

[nate2351]

Is there a weekly training crit in your area? If yes go there every time. Play around with different techniques and see what works and what doesn't.

[rkhatibi]

thanks and i tried some corners tonight. I did it the "new" way by pushing down the inside bar, pulling slightly on the outside, weighting the outside pedal down, and pulling weight off the saddle. cornered very fast and sharp.

Watch the tendency to twist the bars, push on the inside and pull on the outside. It's easy to maintain push pressure on the inside, your body is very strong and consistent there. On the outside it's hard to maintain consistent force when pulling. If you hit imperfections in the road, debris, etc this force is likely to upset your line. At the motorcycle track we're taught nice consistent pressure on the inside and as little input as possible on the outside. When you want to turn in the other direction you push on the outside and stop input into the inside.

Countersteering works in both motorcycles and bicycles, but there are other factors at play that cause confusion. The biggest is center of mass. My 85kg mass on a 250kg motorcycle has a low center of gravity, just above the engine most likely. More input is required to make a bike tip into a turn. My 85kg mass on a 9kg bicycle has a very high center of gravity. Very little force needed to make the bicycle tip into turns. You can imagine balancing a 1m rod by then end. If we add a 5kg to the middle it's somewhat neutral. If we add it to the end in the air it's becomes very easy tip. Due to the falling weight of modern motorcycles (< 172kg), a fair amount of work is put into designing race bikes with a higher center of gravity to make them turn quickly.

[Joxster]

You guys overthink things way too much, the rider in front didn't fall off then you can relax and go faster and smoother through the bend. I've ridden a few crit sin the US and they're not overly technical. Come ride the crits in Holland, Belgium or the UK, nice tight, narrow roads at warp factor 9.

[shovelhd]

You guys overthink things way too much, the rider in front didn't fall off then you can relax and go faster and smoother through the bend. I've ridden a few crit sin the US and they're not overly technical. Come ride the crits in Holland, Belgium or the UK, nice tight, narrow roads at warp factor 9.

Depends which crits. They are not equal.

[fiataccompli]

I'll add 3 quick things..

1. Indeed, riding motorcycles unexpectedly was a benefit in helping me progress thoughtfully with my cornering skills on a bicycle. What was described to me is push down on the bar in the direction you were turning and steer with your butt. After reading about it, it dawned on me it was the science of the intuitive (even though we may train ourselves to be counterintuitive)

2. In my 5-4-3 crit experience (i.e., I am no pro!), I rarely see the group taking what is probably the ideal, best apex. Usually the faster line that you can pedal all the way through is much wider (longer ) looking than you'd expect. The point made above that having the ideal line may not matter is good.

3. You've got to figure this out. Field placement, anticipation, choosing good wheels to follow a nd learning which to avoid all are part of it. Accelerating too much (relative to the field) out of even one turn will have the cumulative effect of burning you up.

Good luck.


Chris G

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vera J. Hogue]

Sometimes, everything seems to fit together. Without being aware what you are doing, you choose the ideal line, you instinctively feel how every corner will behave, and you ride with the right speed, in the right gear, without thinking with hindsight that you could have had a higher speed, and you never get the upsetting thought that your speed is too high for the corner.