why lie?

[Fixed]

bro when they are caught red handed they still lie why?

[alancw3]

lawyers! when caught in an infidelity situation always deny! oh it was your imagination type of thing. never ever admit to anything. sad!!! our litituous world.

[Climb01742]

fixed, "why lie?" may well be one of the shortest yet biggest questions in life.

[bostondrunk]

bro when they are caught red handed they still lie why?

bro atmo imho, if I didn't have 10 lies already, I'd be buying that, cheers atmo

[Roy E. Munson]

1. It's not a lie if you believe it
2. It's only a lie if you get caught

[Too Tall]

D-nial and I'm not talking about a river :rolleyes:

[zeroking17]

money

[72gmc]

the dark side. Easier it is, more seductive.

[swoop]

there is no greater force in the universe than denial of reality. at some point... the truth is mutable and if the risks of dealing with reality are too heavy (i.e., thereis apsychological conflict involved) it's easier to become invested in the lie. the lie is the truth

that first denial of doping is authentic. it takes a lot of force to break through it and when you do.. there is a kind of emotional breakdown that follows.

the more pyschological conflict beneath the lie.. the more you have invested in the lie.. the more you distort the world around you to support the lie. you construct an alternate universe. it can go pretty far.
i have a pair of believe tyler bibs that i wear for irony's sake.
the truth will always set you free. constructing a universe to support a lie is a big job. this is why the truth is a welcome relief.

[67-59]

Oops....

[Ginger]

Truth hurts.

(In oh-so-many ways)

[Climb01742]

but ultimately, telling the truth is easier. lieing is hard. and i speak from experience.

[Ginger]

Truth would be to accept the natural order of things and not do the thing that causes the lie to begin with.

That's what my mama always told me: "Never do anything that you wouldn't want to admit that you did. You don't want to have to lie."

I try to stick to that.

[Ray]

but ultimately, telling the truth is easier. lieing is hard. and i speak from experience.
Much much easier to remember things the way they actually happened. If you tell more than a couple of lies, you can't remember what you said because it's not grounded in anything but what felt expedient at the moment. The truth sometimes hurts, but you can at least be consistent in getting it right.

I learned these lessons the hard way in my youth. Now I try to only lie about stuff like "hey, this tastes really great" or "you look really good" - just things to make people feel better where there's no objective truth anyway.

-Ray

[Ginger]

Yeah... "Oh how nice, you've had the baby"

doesn't go over as well as:

"Oh, what a beautiful baby!"

but it does go over better than:

"Oh, *that's* what bug ugly looks like!"

Sorry to skew the thread....Fixed, I don't know the answer to your question.

[JohnS]

I don't believe that they think that they are lying. "Cheating", in their minds, is doing something that no one else is. It's sorta like being in a cult. When everyone else around you is doing something, no matter how illegal or immoral, it's okay because everyone is doing it. Add money and it makes it even worse. Most bike racers, it seems, don't have any other skills, so they defend what they have to the death (sometimes literally). :crap:

[flydhest]

there is no greater force in the universe than denial of reality.

I don't believe that's true.

[djg]

Why do birds, suddenly appear, oh fixed one?

As you travel in this world, fellah, you'll notice that sometimes people do bad things. Sometimes they lie, for instance. Sometimes they think there's some profit in it and sometimes they're right about that. Sometimes they don't think much at all.

[Erik.Lazdins]

Fixed,

They lie because they lack character.

[flydhest]

Why do birds, suddenly appear, oh fixed one?



. . . just like me, they want to be, close to you.

[Too Tall]

Practice for politics and a a gig announcing for ESPN?

OH SNAP!

[72gmc]

Fixed,

They lie because they lack character.


That is a very good answer. Much better than, "because my accounting firm said it was okay."

[swoop]

they cheat because they lack character.. they lie because they can't comprehend that they cheated.

[Sandy]

To cover up another lie.


Straight Speaking Sandy

[Ginger]

they lie because they can't comprehend that they cheated.

No. They comprhend they cheated, otherwise, why bother with a lie?

[Bud]

lying is an expression of insecurity.

[Ti Designs]

. . . just like me, they want to be, close to you.

No, that's called drafting...

[Frog Hair]

I am never wrong. I thought I was once, but I was mistaken.
I never lie.
I never fart either.
And I still don't know how to use "atmo" in a gramatically correct phrase.

Only one of the above statemens is the truth.

:butt:

[Fat Robert]

i think johns and swoop are in the right ballpark. none of us have any real understanding of that life, but it seems most plausible that professional cyclists accept that to keep their job, they have to get on the program, and since everyone else is, its not really cheating (unless you are gifted among the gifted and can somehow do what they do without any, er, medical assistance). breaking the lie means violating the trust of the group -- and showing that you don't have a place in professional cycling, except as an eccentric (chistophe bassons) or as a unique marketing figure who might pan out as a winner again (millar -- if he had been a domestique, and not a star, no one would have bothered signing him). in this community, it seems that the sin of a dario frigo is carelessness, while the sin of a jesus manzano is heresy. i pity them, but i don't blame them for lying -- when your career and identity are consumed by a culture of corruption -- when corruption is the cost of having that career to start with -- you do what you must to show that you still play by the culture's rules and know how to stay with the program, unless you are a very rare individual (how many of us have kept a "group secret" to stay in the club?) with strong prospects in another field....

[Ti Designs]

What's are the alternatives? Sucking or getting busted - yeh, I can see lots of people going for one of those...

[Ginger]

Why cheat?

Because only one person can win.

And isn't that why you race a bike? To win?

Otherwise, why race?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . continuing news stories that go on and on and ON simply because someone involved would rather be nailed on the cross and pecked to pieces by vultures than simply stand up and say "I was wrong."

I think the same thing applies here. They simply can-NOT admit to anyone else, much less themselves, that they were wrong.

Some people would rather die than admit that they messed up in any way. Why? I've never understood it either . . .

BBD

[Lunar Probe]

Did he swear on his dog's grave that he didn't dope?

[MartyE]

Intro to abnormal sociology (thank you Jackson Toby), how do you tell
right from wrong when wrong becomes the norm?
a rather graphic example would be Jerzy Kozinki's (sic) The Painted Bird,
while WWII rages around them the general population commits atrocities
that would make the Germans shudder, who's abnormal?

In a society where doping is the norm, where delivering wins
to ones sponsor and team are of utmost importance whats a
bit of EPO and HGH amoung friends?
the lie is just an extension of the justification of the entire
society.

(or something like that, heck that was back in the 70's and I
don't recall it too well. Doping? everyone was doing it!)

marty

[Grant McLean]

Why cheat?

Because only one person can win.

And isn't that why you race a bike? To win?

Otherwise, why race?


I ride my bike becuase I think it helps me be a better person.
The person who you "cheated" is yourself. If you only race to
win, you'll lose every time, that's a fact.

sorry to go all deep on ya'll.

g

[Climb01742]

there's lieing and then there Lieing. let's say that the evidence in spain shows that tyler did blood dope. in that case, what tyler did to "protest" his innocence goes beyond run of the mill, cycling-culture lieing. what he did is a whole other chapter in some psych textbook. lower case lieing in this situation is understandable. if he's guilty, what tyler did is, well, sorta, you know, nuts.

[atmo]

there's lieing and then there Lieing. let's say that the evidence in spain shows that tyler did blood dope. in that case, what tyler did to "protest" his innocence goes beyond run of the mill, cycling-culture lieing. what he did is a whole other chapter in some psych textbook. lower case lieing in this situation is understandable. if he's guilty, what tyler did is, well, sorta, you know, nuts.

please post once more soon asap.
the cake is ready atmo.

[Grant McLean]

please post once more soon asap.
the cake is ready atmo.

ready for the odometer to turn over....

[Lunar Probe]

there's lieing and then there Lieing. let's say that the evidence in spain shows that tyler did blood dope. in that case, what tyler did to "protest" his innocence goes beyond run of the mill, cycling-culture lieing. what he did is a whole other chapter in some psych textbook. lower case lieing in this situation is understandable. if he's guilty, what tyler did is, well, sorta, you know, nuts.

Exactly, its not like this guy is a brainwashed runaway teenage hooker, thrown into a dark all-consuming reality and dominated by an evil pimp.

[mike p]

We lie because we don't want to be held accountable for our actions.

Mike

[Fat Robert]

Exactly, its not like this guy is a brainwashed runaway teenage hooker, thrown into a dark all-consuming reality and dominated by an evil pimp.

stop talking about my girlfriend like that

tyler was just gambling on the big lie...people will buy the big one....

[SoCalSteve]

1. It's not a lie if you believe it
2. It's only a lie if you get caught

1. Seinfeld again, of course

2. My ex wife

[Frankwurst]

My Dad told us when we were old enough to understand " You don't ever lie, cheat, or steal" You can drop a quarter through his wedding band. So to answer your question Fixed... I don't know. :beer:

[obtuse]

to their friends, family co-workers and the people they trust and in who's hands they put their lives; as well as those they spend the majority of their time with there is no lying. everyone knows the score and knows exactly what's going on. the only people who are being "lied" to are the people outside of this circle and to whom they have no real relationship. this makes is much much easier.

the other thing is that a certain selfishness becomes ingrained in people who spend so much time exerting themselves and pushing their minds and bodies to the limit; for many the huge sacrifices they make is somehow penance for any type of behavior. "you have no idea how hard i work" is a great excuse for pretty much any type of immoral behaviour.

obtuse

[JohnS]

"you have no idea how hard i work" is a great excuse for pretty much any type of immoral behaviour.

obtuseSounds like Ken Lay. :p

[obtuse]

Sounds like Ken Lay. :p


a shining example of an insular socio-path...sort of like many a cyclist. wonder what ken lay's 'crit is?

obtuse

[Kevan]

and when you get caught, have Opra wag her finger at you. Check yourself into a clinic for a couple weeks and wear cucumber patches. Maybe, later, you can write a book about it, get on the NYT best seller list, and blame it all on your parents and the rotten school system you went through.

Hey, that's my plan.

[Fixed]

there's lieing and then there Lieing. let's say that the evidence in spain shows that tyler did blood dope. in that case, what tyler did to "protest" his innocence goes beyond run of the mill, cycling-culture lieing. what he did is a whole other chapter in some psych textbook. lower case lieing in this situation is understandable. if he's guilty, what tyler did is, well, sorta, you know, nuts.
my son's hero he couldn't understand where he went .
.we got him a autograph poster in vegas from tyler he was so happy .
my son hasn't felt the same about cycling since tyler got caught .
he let my little guy down .
bro you know jr's look up to these dudes .
cheers

[Climb01742]

to their friends, family co-workers and the people they trust and in who's hands they put their lives; as well as those they spend the majority of their time with there is no lying. everyone knows the score and knows exactly what's going on. the only people who are being "lied" to are the people outside of this circle and to whom they have no real relationship. this makes is much much easier.

the other thing is that a certain selfishness becomes ingrained in people who spend so much time exerting themselves and pushing their minds and bodies to the limit; for many the huge sacrifices they make is somehow penance for any type of behavior. "you have no idea how hard i work" is a great excuse for pretty much any type of immoral behaviour.

obtuse

i wish some rider would make this argument. instead of saying "i didn't do it" or "i didn't cheat", simply say "here's the deal..." there's a certain "honesty" to it.

[Ray]

i wish some rider would make this argument. instead of saying "i didn't do it" or "i didn't cheat", simply say "here's the deal..." there's a certain "honesty" to it.
There's a lot of honesty to it, but its a career ender. I think most of them are roughly as honest about it as they can get away with. It's guys like Tyler who are holier than thou that I have a real issue with (assuming this stuff all ends up being true). For most of 'em, its a wink and a nod. For him, his clean-ness, honesty, and trustworthiness were like a cause. As you said, there are at least a couple levels of honesty.

This reminds me of politicians. How I've longed for one to just be brutally frank with us - 'look guys, as long as you want to drive your cars and SUVs this much, we're gonna be involved in foriegn wars over oil; as long as you want the govt to provide this level of services and want low taxes, this is the debt you're gonna leave to your kids; as long as you're gonna eat like pigs and sit on your fat asses all the time, health care costs are gonna keep going up, etc, etc, etc". The last time I remember one being close to that frank with us was Mondale when he said something like "I'll raise taxes, so will he. He won't tell you, I just did". Remember what happened to him? As long as some of them are willing to play this BS game, all of them pretty much have to or they won't be there to get ANYthing done any more.

Tough choices. Life sucks and then you die.

-Ray

[m_moses]

There's a lot of honesty to it, but its a career ender.

This may be true but the optimist in me wants to think otherwise. Wouldn't the healing power of redemption be an incredible motivator?

[chrisroph]

i wish some rider would make this argument. instead of saying "i didn't do it" or "i didn't cheat", simply say "here's the deal..." there's a certain "honesty" to it.

DeCanio did and look what it got him. Most of us here think he's a kook.

Perhaps he is. As ATMO says, a sophisticated medical program is an unfortunate and indeed necessary part of the sport at the highest lever. Everyone surrounding the pros knows the score. Maintaining the veneer of purity to the outside world is a necessary a part of a successful program, as necessary as EPO or blood transfusions. In that world, the normal course of action is to simply issue a denial when suspicions arise and to attack the integrity of the tests/procedures/people aligned against you.

Coming out and attacking the entire infrastructure of the sport as did DeCanio is a course of action that at least at this point in time requires abnormal and self destructive personality traits.

[Ray]

This may be true but the optimist in me wants to think otherwise. Wouldn't the healing power of redemption be an incredible motivator?
Sure, but not as much of a motivator as avoiding hunger. Which is probably a real choice for a lot of these guys.

-Ray